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Emergence and the Dormitive Principle

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There is a famous passage in Molière’s play The Imaginary Invalid in which he satirizes the tactic of tautology given as explanation.  A group of medieval doctors are giving an oral exam to a doctoral candidate, and they ask him why opium causes people to get sleepy.  The candidate responds:

Mihi à docto Doctore
Domandatur causam & rationem, quare
Opium facit dormire ?
A quoy respondeo,
Quia est in eo
Virtus dormitiua,
Cuius est natura
Sensus assoupire.

Which is translated:

I am asked by the learned doctor the cause and reason why opium causes sleep.  To which I reply, because it has a dormitive property, whose nature is to lull the senses to sleep.

Of course, “dormitive” is derived from the Latin “dormire,” which means to sleep.  Thus, the candidate’s explanation boils down to “opium causes people to get sleepy because it has a property that causes people to get sleepy.”  It is a tautology disguised as an explanation.

Funny, no?  A real scientist would never stoop to such linguistic tricks, right?  Wrong. 

Consider the materialist explanation for consciousness.  We are told that the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain.  Yes, and sleep is induced by the dormitive property of opium. 

UPDATE

Unsurprisingly, our materialist interlocutors point to the fact that “emergence” as a general concept is commonplace and therefore “emergence” as an explanation for consciousness is perfectly adequate.  We will see how their argument is circular in this update. 

Viola Lee

If emergent is not a good term, what is? Use the salt example: “Just as Na and Cl are widely different from each other, the compound NACL or salt is widely different from either.” If salt has properties that are quite unlike those of its constituent parts, how does one describe where the properties of salt come from? What concept or word would be accurate here?

Bob O’H

Barry – is the only possible explanation for something that it emerges from something else?

Viola’s and Bob’s argument is circular.  It assumes the very thing to be decided. 

Here is the materialist argument:  Sodium and chloride combine to form salt, which is surprisingly different from either sodium or chloride.  Oxygen and hydrogen combine to form water, which is surprisingly different from either oxygen or hydrogen.  And no one objects when we say salt “emerged” from the combination of sodium and chloride or that water “emerged” from the combination of oxygen and hydrogen.  This is merely another way of stating a reductionist account of how a physical thing (salt or water) can be reduced to the combination of its physical constituents.  It is utterly mysterious how salt comes from mixing sodium and chloride, and it is utterly mysterious how water comes from mixing oxygen and hydrogen.  Calling what happened “emergence” is as good term as any.  The mysterious emergence of one physical thing from other physical things in ways that we cannot explain is common.  Therefore, that consciousness “emerged” from the physical properties of the brain in a mysterious way that we cannot explain is unsurprising.  Nothing to see here; move along. 

Viola’s and Bob’s religious commitments have led them into a glaring logical error.1  It should be obvious that the very thing to be decided is whether, in principle, the mental can be reduced to the physical.  Viola and Bob argue that physical things emerge from other physical things all the time; therefore that the mind emerges from the physical properties of the brain is unsurprising. 

Wait a second.  Viola’s and Bob’s argument works only if one assumes that the mental can be accounted for in physicalist reductionist terms.  They have assumed their conclusion and argued in a tight little circle. 

Viola’s and Bob’s logic has gone off the rails, because the issue to be decided is not whether one physical thing can emerge in surprising ways from a combination of other physical things.  No one disputes that we see examples of this, such as salt and water, all around us.  The issue to be decided is whether mental properties – subjective self-awareness, intentionality, qualia, free will, thoughts, etc. – can emerge from physical constituents.  The question to be answered is whether the mental can be reduced to the physical.  Answering that question by pointing out that we see the physical reduced to the physical is no answer at all. 

There is an obvious vast, unbridgeable ontological chasm between mental phenomena and physical phenomena.  Therefore, the burden is on materialists to account for how, in principle, a particular combination of chemicals can, for example, have subjective self-awareness.  Many materialists (Sam Harris comes to mind) understand this is an impossible burden and therefore deny that we have subjective self-awareness at all, and our perception that we do is an illusion (who is deceived Sam?).  Here again, we see materialists forced by their religious commitments to say crazy, obviously false, things.  That we are subjectively self-aware has for good reason been called the primordial datum.  Everyone knows beyond the slightest doubt that he is subjectively self-aware, and the very act of attempting to refute it is self-referentially incoherent.  Chemicals cannot know, and asserting chemicals know they cannot know is (i.e. that chemicals have intentionality) is absurd. 

In conclusion, Viola and Bob say, essentially, things emerge from other things all the time; therefore the mind emerged from the brain.  This is an obvious non sequitur and their augment fails. 

_____________________

1Materialism is, at bottom, a religious proposition. 

Comments
"Every time human DNA is passed from one generation to the next it accumulates 100–200 new mutations, according to a DNA-sequencing analysis of the Y chromosome." https://www.nature.com/news/2009/090827/full/news.2009.864.html That's a lot of small steps right there.JVL
May 8, 2021
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StephenB: The design hypothesis is a better explanation not only because it is more rigorous and likely to be correct, but also because it provides us with sound direction. You might say the same for choosing a military career over one in advertising; the military career is more rigorous and has a defined direction and purpose. I can’t tell you how many times I have asked the proponents of that view to provide the evidence and no one has ever done it. What they did was to show the power of nature to create small changes and then claim that it was also responsible for the large changes (from one type of living organism into another). If you can do it, you will be the first. Meanwhile, I don’t hesitate to make this claim and issue this challenge: There is not a shred of evidence to indicate that unguided evolution has the causal power to drive the entire macro-evolutionary process from beginning to end and through every taxonomic level. Hmmmm . . . If you go on a 10 mile hike you have to take a lot of steps. Each step doesn't get you very far but no one would suggest that there's a limit or barrier to the sum of a bunch of small steps added together. You can travel 10 miles, 20 miles, 30 miles or more all by adding together a lot of single small steps. Your view seems to be that a bunch of small taxonomic steps can only add up to a small total journey. Why is that? Why should there be a barrier to the total distance a collection of small steps can make? Or how about this: at one point you were a single cell. When your dad's sperm mated with your mother's egg the sum total of you was a single very small object. Which then became two cells. Then four. Then eight. Each division was a very, very small step, seemingly adding nothing to the total. But, at some point, that process arrived at what you are right now. Mathematically Calculus (invented/discovered by Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibnitz) says that something that is smooth and continuous can be thought of as being an infinite sum of a bunch of extremely small, incremental steps. Zeno's paradox is an early recognition of that concept. When you look at unguided evolution and assume that a bunch of small steps cannot possibly add up to something big on what basis do you make that assumption? Why should there be a boundary or a barrier?JVL
May 8, 2021
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Sandy: A moral purpose . This world was built for moral war. HIV was designed for a moral purpose. Is there a way to discern what that purpose is?JVL
May 8, 2021
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at 123, UB says, "So it is an assumption without evidence then." Hmmmm. I didn't say that. All of us try to integrate our experience of the world into our metaphysical systems. For instance, I consider the existence of our universe, with the entire quantum/fundamental particle/atomic structure out of which all physical things are built, as evidence for a creative power that underlies that existence and structure and is other than physical. Therefore, I am not a materialist (there are other reasons also). My assumptions are not evidence-free. However, other people use that same evidence to believe in a God that is omnipresent and who's will underlies everything that happens, and others believe in other metaphysical interpretations of the evidence. There are some who believe in what might be called an interventionist God who might believe that some things are guided and some are not, and try to distinguish between the two, so for them the guided/unguided distinction might make sense. All of our metaphysical systems draw on empirical evidence that is available to everyone, but they all also include superstructures of interpretation that are not amenable to any consensus means of verification. Thus we have different world views. These worldviews do not exist in an evidence-free vacuuum, but they also include aspects which are beyond evidence, and which we choose to believe based on everything we can bear on the subject, both internal and external.Viola Lee
May 8, 2021
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Upright BiPed So it is an assumption without evidence then. Okay.
Wrong. Your own answer is EVIDENCE. Isn't that perfect?Sandy
May 8, 2021
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JVL: --- Okay. But does that make it ‘better’? {The design hypothesis over the NeoDarwinian claim.]Perhaps it would be good to explore what ID proponents mean by it being a ‘better’ explanation of the data? Well, I can certainly share my own meaning. The design hypothesis is a better explanation not only because it is more rigorous and likely to be correct, but also because it provides us with sound direction. If it was designed, then we can take it to the next level by using common sense reasoning about what really happened. In this case, it would indicate that it was nature’s God and not just nature that was responsible for biodiversity. It is a straightforward analysis. Effects require causes, and a design requires a designer. The best candidate would be God. Let’s not forget that the whole aim of the Darwinian enterprise was to provide an alternative creation story. In other words, they sent us in the wrong direction by saying that God’s creative design was not needed and that nature could do that job all by itself. ---“Basically it comes down to multiple threads or types of evidence all pointing in the same direction. So: not just fossils, not just the genomic record, not just the bio-geographic distribution, not just the morphological evidence. Taken all together I find the unguided explanation stronger and more closely matching all the available data. I’m happy to elaborate if you wish.” I can’t tell you how many times I have asked the proponents of that view to provide the evidence and no one has ever done it. What they did was to show the power of nature to create small changes and then claim that it was also responsible for the large changes (from one type of living organism into another). If you can do it, you will be the first. Meanwhile, I don’t hesitate to make this claim and issue this challenge: There is not a shred of evidence to indicate that unguided evolution has the causal power to drive the entire macro-evolutionary process from beginning to end and through every taxonomic level.StephenB
May 8, 2021
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. So it is an assumption without evidence then. Okay.Upright BiPed
May 8, 2021
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JVL So . . . if HIV was designed then what do you think it’s purpose is?
A moral purpose . This world was built for moral war.Sandy
May 8, 2021
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re 118: I started the sentence you quote with "If creative power that flows from some “Oneness” that is other than the physical world but is pervasively present in the physical world, as is my preferred metaphysical speculation ...", so, yes, I am aware that this is taking an assumption as the premise. But is is a metaphysical speculation, and like many (most? all?) other metaphysical speculations, it can accommodate anything and everything. It's similar to the theistic belief that everything that happens is as God wills, or ET and Sandy's belief that everything is designed. As I also said in 117, these are not really explanations. If creative power pervades the universe, down to every quantum event, or if everything is as God wills, then the guided/unguided dichotomy doesn't offer a useful distinction that I can see.Viola Lee
May 8, 2021
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. VL at 118 “... the distinction between “unguided” and “guided” is moot: a false and empirically non-productive dichotomy” if you assume your conclusions without evidence, correct? Just to be sure. And if we document evidence of guidance, we should ignore those observations in order to maintain the assumption? EDIT: Perhaps “ignore” is the wrong word. Maybe we should just say “creative forces are pervasive in the natural world, so we should not be concerned with these observations”.Upright BiPed
May 8, 2021
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KM @117: As you say, it's impossible to ascertain for sure, but personally I would be surprised if this is not the case.William J Murray
May 8, 2021
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If creative power that flows from some "Oneness" that is other than the physical world but is pervasively present in the physical world, as is my preferred metaphysical speculation, then the distinction between "unguided" and "guided" is moot: a false and empirically non-productive dichotomy. As I wrote in 43 above,
What I have learned here on this site, I think, is that ID is primarily a philosophical position that rejects both materialism and non-theistic perspectives about the creative power of the universe such as mine (as well as, I gather, certain theistic views such as some segments of Christianity.) ...ID appears to be interested in defending a particular metaphysical interpretation of what has happened in the world, to the exclusion of other interpretations. I don’t consider such metaphysical interpretations (mine or anyone else’s) explanations. They are stories about the world that tie into our larger conceptual framework about values, meaning, purpose, etc., but they don’t explain anything in any practical way about the world itself.
Viola Lee
May 8, 2021
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KM: I took Karen’s remark about zombies as a joke. Even though the tone is meant to be jocular, the idea is no joke. Not to me. I have a strong suspicion that it is true. But there is no way to conclusively prove it. WJM: So did I. However, I’ve found that perspective very effective in increasing my enjoyment of life when interacting with certain people. Me too. But my view is a bit stronger. I have more or less adopted it as a working hypothesis given the informal tests that I have conducted on many people. My sample size is anecdotal level, but roughly 1/2 of the people easily understand the concepts and points I make when it comes to consciousness and freewill, and 1/2 don't. The 1/2 that don't understand, never get it. This is revealed by the language they use. Again, not proof. But cause for serious suspicion. One would expect that a zombie would be ultimately unable to deal with certain concepts that revolve around consciousness and freewill. (When I learned of the Turing Test many decades ago, I though that probing a putative conscious entity about consciousness and freewill would be a good, maybe the best, way to "attack" it.) That coupled with the fact that I can't prove that anyone besides myself is conscious, makes it downright plausible to me. Solipsis is a particular philosophical view, but the fact exists that I cannot prove the existence of consciousness in another, and a lot of people seems to be unable to understand fundamental ideas about it when I talk to them. As for a Creator's role in all this. NPCs are conceivably an efficient way to handle certain logistical concerns within the spacetime "game", as it were.Karen McMannus
May 8, 2021
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ET: “the Privileged Planet” obviously moves past the design inference. Well, it pushes it out into the cosmos anyway. Just as evolution and abiogenesis are held separate. There isn’t anything in ID that prevents people from asking and seeking answers to the other questions. That is what proves ID is NOT a dead end. Sure, of course. When comparing two contradictory explanations the one that explains more surely should be the better one though. ID is a better explanation because it is testable and potentially falsifiable. Saying Stonehenge is an artifact is a better explanation than geological processes for the same formation. I think the unguided evolutionary theory is testable and potentially falsifiable. What an infant you are, eh? ID is OK with those questions. Those questions prove that ID is not a scientific dead end. What is needed is training of generations of investigators to look into these questions. I have told you this many times and yet you continue to dodge the facts. So, let me get this straight . . . many ID proponents say that unguided evolutionary proponents have had 150 years of time to try and justify their ideas and so now it's time to call it quits. But you're saying ID needs generations, i.e. many, many decades of time just to come up to speed? Is that not a double standard? We don’t know it. And it is obviously above our capabilities. And there are more important questions to answer. But you did say that implementation was part of design! So inferring design means inferring implementation yes? Why is that not an important question to answer? What could be more important, from a scientific perspective, than that? No, it’s a fact. You are conflating a what for a who. As I said if that is good enough than saying a non-human designed us is OK. Where are they? Do they even exist? So it is very telling that when to refute ID all you and yours have to do is support the claims of your very own position, you choose to flail away at ID for not doing something that it was never intended to do. It’s as if evolution is false because abiogenesis hasn’t panned out. It's not the same because of what you are inferring: a being (of some kind) did something at some time (both unspecified) that affected the origination AND the development of life on Earth. Your hypothesis encompasses both things. Evolutionary theory does not. It's perfectly okay to point out the shortfalls in the knowledge of the origin of life on Earth. Go for it. It's okay to try and poke holes in unguided evolutionary theory. Go for it. They do depend on each other to some extent but Darwin's original notion did not explicitly address how the first self-replicators came about. And I think that most working biologists would agree that the problems and issues of the origin of life are somewhat separate from what happened after that. But ID supposes that both the origin of life and the development of life are due to some unspecified and undetermined intelligent designer. You choose to lump those things together.JVL
May 8, 2021
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StephenB: Yes. The very fact that it cannot — and doesn’t try — to explain those things shows that it doesn’t want to bite off more than it can chew. The whole point of ID is to limit the scope of the study so as to achieve rigor and to use a methodology that is specifically formulated to test the (design) hypothesis based on the expertise of the scientist who formulated it. Okay. But does that make it 'better'? Perhaps it would be good to explore what ID proponents mean by it being a 'better' explanation of the data? If the competing paradigm of unguided evolution were too limit its scope and argue that it can explain certain changes in a given species, it would not be biting off more than it can chew. But, of course, it doesn’t submit to that kind of discipline at all. On the contrary, the so-called theory of evolution holds that naturalistic forces, acting alone, possess the causal power to drive the entire macro- evolutionary process from beginning to end and through every taxonomic level. Where is the evidence? Where is the rigor? Where is the methodological discipline? It doesn’t exist. Why would you think that the ideology of unguided evolution is superior to the science of intelligent design? If you're asking me personally I'm happy to answer (and deal with the barbs and catcalls) which are inevitably to follow. Basically it comes down to multiple threads or types of evidence all pointing in the same direction. So: not just fossils, not just the genomic record, not just the bio-geographic distribution, not just the morphological evidence. Taken all together I find the unguided explanation stronger and more closely matching all the available data. I'm happy to elaborate if you wish.JVL
May 8, 2021
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Kairosfocus: JVL, you had your answer staring you in the face and could not acknowledge it. Intelligent design in the world of life — though it’s early stages for us — is an established technology. Design techniques exist and are widely practiced. That’s enough for any reasonable person. As for reconstructing the unobserved past on ideologically loaded assumptions, we can leave it to others. There are enough traces to show clear design: code, so language, algorithms so goals, associated molecular nanotech, it’s clear we are dealing with confession by projection to the despised other, here. Your cognitive dissonance is drowning out your talk-points and rhetorical demands. It’s over, your objection is dead. I was just asking a question. I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.JVL
May 8, 2021
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Barry Arrington: JVL, you are a hypocritical coward. UB points that out. Why would we decry that? It is generally considered a good thing when hypocrisy and cowardice are called out. I have no idea why you would think otherwise (admittedly, being the one called out probably influences your view in this particular instance). Well, you're the boss here . . . I think. You do own the rights to the site now don't you?JVL
May 8, 2021
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Sandy: My friend, which part of EVERYTHING you missed? Nothing work without being designed. So . . . if HIV was designed then what do you think it's purpose is?JVL
May 8, 2021
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:-)Viola Lee
May 8, 2021
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VL said:
I took Karen’s remark about zombies as a joke.
So did I. However, I've found that perspective very effective in increasing my enjoyment of life when interacting with certain people.William J Murray
May 8, 2021
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I took Karen's remark about zombies as a joke.Viola Lee
May 8, 2021
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KM said:
It’s possible that people like Harris are zombies with no consciousness, and so doesn’t experience or understand what non-zombies experience. That would explain a lot.
I call those people potential NPCs, or "game" characters generated by what you would call "the Root" to "fill in" certain aspects of our experience. As you say, this would explain a lot of people and the inane things they say.William J Murray
May 8, 2021
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Bob O'H said:
I think that would depend on what comes next, after stating “it’s designed” or “it emerges”. If there is more detail about how something was designed, or how an emergent property came about, then I’d say that it is an explanation. Without that it is at best (I think) a potential explanation. I guess the extent to which one sees it as a potential explanation rather than a semantic dodge depends on the extent to which you see a commitment to filling out the explanation.
These, I think, are two separate arguments. The argument about consciousness is not between whether it is designed or emergent; it's about whether consciousness is emergent or it exists independently of the brain - IOW, whether or not it is caused by the physical conditions of the brain. This question can answered logically or scientifically. Categorizing it as a potential "emergent quality like other emergent physical qualities" is a categorical error, as Mr. Arrington has pointed out. Scientifically, it has been demonstrated that consciousness is not an emergent phenomena of the physical brain via well-researched and studied NDEs where, in certain instances, the patient is deliberately put in a brain-dead state and later they can not only describe what was going on around them at the time they were in that brain-dead state, they have detailed what was going on at that time in other locations - rooms down the hall, etc.William J Murray
May 8, 2021
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I agree about post #101. Karen has made a number of interesting comments here and on the Hitchhiker thread. Our consciousness is an immediate fact. Understanding how it relates to our physical body and our actions is mysterious and hard to sort out in many ways, but that doesn't negate the primacy of our conscious experience.Viola Lee
May 8, 2021
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Karen McMannus, @101. Well put.Barry Arrington
May 8, 2021
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It occurred to me this morning that perhaps Barry did not read my post at 16, objecting to his comments about me in the OP, so I apologize for saying Barry "never corrected" them at 100. But the OP is wrong about me, and I'll let it go at that.Viola Lee
May 8, 2021
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BO'H: a good point of reference is to note that design in the world of life is now (albeit in infancy) an established fact with associated technologies. Similarly, molecular scale nanotech. Similarly, computing tech. We know that FSCO/I can be produced even at molecular scale as we have done so, though it is early days yet. We further know that technologies often improve as the state of the art advances. So, we can point to the like causes like principle. By contrast, there is no good, actual observational demonstration that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity can and does create FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity; where just the genome for a first cell based life form is 100 - 1,000+ kbits. This is backed by the search challenge to find islands of function [and yes, tight configuration constraints lead to tight functional zones] in large configuration spaces. Similarly, alphanumeric string data structure codes expressing algorithms such as for protein synthesis are cases of language and goal-directed stepwise process. Those too are signatures of design. Where, lastly, playing games with methodological rules and preferences to shore up an otherwise unsupported inference then using that to block alternatives cannot be sound reasoning. No, methodological naturalism is ideological straightjacket not sound science. And all of this has long been on the table, we have pretty much known what DNA is about in key parts for 50 - 70 years now. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2021
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JVL @ 34 -
Barry Arrington: Design has the benefit of actually being an explanation as opposed to a semantic dodge. Hmmm . . . I don’t think that’s true.
I think that would depend on what comes next, after stating "it's designed" or "it emerges". If there is more detail about how something was designed, or how an emergent property came about, then I'd say that it is an explanation. Without that it is at best (I think) a potential explanation. I guess the extent to which one sees it as a potential explanation rather than a semantic dodge depends on the extent to which you see a commitment to filling out the explanation.Bob O'H
May 8, 2021
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OP: Sam Harris ... understand[s] this is an impossible burden and therefore den[ies] that we have subjective self-awareness at all, and our perception that we do is an illusion. The humorous thing is that he never identifies what the illusion is of. "Illusion of consciousness" and "illusion of free-will" are nonsense terms. It's like saying it's an "illusion that I exist at all". Nonsensical. "Consciousness" is simply the label we use for the primary "experiencer" that is the core of our existence, regardless of what it's experiencing. It is what it is. Calling it an "illusion" doesn't change the nature of what it actually is: the experiencer. An experiencer that is experiencing an "illusion" would still be an experiencer! It's just word games with people like him. It's possible that people like Harris are zombies with no consciousness, and so doesn't experience or understand what non-zombies experience. That would explain a lot.Karen McMannus
May 8, 2021
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For the record, and to jump backwards three or four sub-threads, I'd like to note that Barry never corrected his misrepresentation of what I said at 8, or my views, in his addendum to the OP. I'm not objecting to the argument Barry made: I'm just objecting to his thinking that I was making the claims he ascribed to me.Viola Lee
May 7, 2021
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