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Emergence and the Dormitive Principle

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There is a famous passage in Molière’s play The Imaginary Invalid in which he satirizes the tactic of tautology given as explanation.  A group of medieval doctors are giving an oral exam to a doctoral candidate, and they ask him why opium causes people to get sleepy.  The candidate responds:

Mihi à docto Doctore
Domandatur causam & rationem, quare
Opium facit dormire ?
A quoy respondeo,
Quia est in eo
Virtus dormitiua,
Cuius est natura
Sensus assoupire.

Which is translated:

I am asked by the learned doctor the cause and reason why opium causes sleep.  To which I reply, because it has a dormitive property, whose nature is to lull the senses to sleep.

Of course, “dormitive” is derived from the Latin “dormire,” which means to sleep.  Thus, the candidate’s explanation boils down to “opium causes people to get sleepy because it has a property that causes people to get sleepy.”  It is a tautology disguised as an explanation.

Funny, no?  A real scientist would never stoop to such linguistic tricks, right?  Wrong. 

Consider the materialist explanation for consciousness.  We are told that the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain.  Yes, and sleep is induced by the dormitive property of opium. 

UPDATE

Unsurprisingly, our materialist interlocutors point to the fact that “emergence” as a general concept is commonplace and therefore “emergence” as an explanation for consciousness is perfectly adequate.  We will see how their argument is circular in this update. 

Viola Lee

If emergent is not a good term, what is? Use the salt example: “Just as Na and Cl are widely different from each other, the compound NACL or salt is widely different from either.” If salt has properties that are quite unlike those of its constituent parts, how does one describe where the properties of salt come from? What concept or word would be accurate here?

Bob O’H

Barry – is the only possible explanation for something that it emerges from something else?

Viola’s and Bob’s argument is circular.  It assumes the very thing to be decided. 

Here is the materialist argument:  Sodium and chloride combine to form salt, which is surprisingly different from either sodium or chloride.  Oxygen and hydrogen combine to form water, which is surprisingly different from either oxygen or hydrogen.  And no one objects when we say salt “emerged” from the combination of sodium and chloride or that water “emerged” from the combination of oxygen and hydrogen.  This is merely another way of stating a reductionist account of how a physical thing (salt or water) can be reduced to the combination of its physical constituents.  It is utterly mysterious how salt comes from mixing sodium and chloride, and it is utterly mysterious how water comes from mixing oxygen and hydrogen.  Calling what happened “emergence” is as good term as any.  The mysterious emergence of one physical thing from other physical things in ways that we cannot explain is common.  Therefore, that consciousness “emerged” from the physical properties of the brain in a mysterious way that we cannot explain is unsurprising.  Nothing to see here; move along. 

Viola’s and Bob’s religious commitments have led them into a glaring logical error.1  It should be obvious that the very thing to be decided is whether, in principle, the mental can be reduced to the physical.  Viola and Bob argue that physical things emerge from other physical things all the time; therefore that the mind emerges from the physical properties of the brain is unsurprising. 

Wait a second.  Viola’s and Bob’s argument works only if one assumes that the mental can be accounted for in physicalist reductionist terms.  They have assumed their conclusion and argued in a tight little circle. 

Viola’s and Bob’s logic has gone off the rails, because the issue to be decided is not whether one physical thing can emerge in surprising ways from a combination of other physical things.  No one disputes that we see examples of this, such as salt and water, all around us.  The issue to be decided is whether mental properties – subjective self-awareness, intentionality, qualia, free will, thoughts, etc. – can emerge from physical constituents.  The question to be answered is whether the mental can be reduced to the physical.  Answering that question by pointing out that we see the physical reduced to the physical is no answer at all. 

There is an obvious vast, unbridgeable ontological chasm between mental phenomena and physical phenomena.  Therefore, the burden is on materialists to account for how, in principle, a particular combination of chemicals can, for example, have subjective self-awareness.  Many materialists (Sam Harris comes to mind) understand this is an impossible burden and therefore deny that we have subjective self-awareness at all, and our perception that we do is an illusion (who is deceived Sam?).  Here again, we see materialists forced by their religious commitments to say crazy, obviously false, things.  That we are subjectively self-aware has for good reason been called the primordial datum.  Everyone knows beyond the slightest doubt that he is subjectively self-aware, and the very act of attempting to refute it is self-referentially incoherent.  Chemicals cannot know, and asserting chemicals know they cannot know is (i.e. that chemicals have intentionality) is absurd. 

In conclusion, Viola and Bob say, essentially, things emerge from other things all the time; therefore the mind emerged from the brain.  This is an obvious non sequitur and their augment fails. 

_____________________

1Materialism is, at bottom, a religious proposition. 

Comments
JVL The unguided evolutionary paradigm says
There is NOTHING unguided on a cell or organism .Everything is guided with a great precision otherway bad things happen with life.Sandy
May 7, 2021
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So if the particle itself does not know where it is prior to our conscious observation of it, exactly where does the particle exist prior to our conscious observation of it? Well, prior to our conscious observation of it, the particle is mathematically defined as existing in a infinite dimensional/infinite information state,
Wave function Excerpt "wave functions form an abstract vector space",,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function#Wave_functions_as_an_abstract_vector_space Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (quantum) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf
Now, as a Christian Theist, telling me that something exists in an infinite dimensional state, that takes an infinite amount of information to describe properly,,,, well, (telling me that as a Christian Theist), that certainly sounds a lot like the particle must be existing in the infinite, (i.e. omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent), Mind of God prior to our conscious observation of it.
Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence Omnipotence means all-powerful. Monotheistic theologians regard God as having supreme power. This means God can do what he wants. It means he is not subject to physical limitations like man is. Being omnipotent, God has power over wind, water, gravity, physics, etc. God's power is infinite, or limitless. Omniscience means all-knowing. God is all all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past, present, and future. Nothing takes him by surprise. His knowledge is total. He knows all that there is to know and all that can be known. Omnipresence means all-present. This term means that God is capable of being everywhere at the same time. It means his divine presence encompasses the whole of the universe. There is no location where he does not inhabit. This should not be confused with pantheism, which suggests that God is synonymous with the universe itself; instead, omnipresence indicates that God is distinct from the universe, but inhabits the entirety of it. He is everywhere at once. https://study.com/academy/lesson/omnipotent-omniscient-and-omnipresent-god-definition-lesson-quiz.html
Thus in conclusion, I guess as long as you blatantly ignore all the scientific evidence that directly contradicts your worldview, you can, like Seversky has repeatedly done, maintain an atheistic worldview. But if instead you follow the scientific evidence where it leads, then, time and again, you are inevitably led to a Theistic, even to a Christian, worldview.
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
And might I further suggest that the Christian worldview is not nearly as bad as Seversky, and other atheists, have falsely envisioned it to be in their imaginations? (i.e. God IS NOT a tyrant who is out to get us for every little misdeed and/or mistake we make, but He is instead very much 'in our corner'.
1 Corinthians 2:9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— The Easter Question - Eben Alexander, M.D. - Harvard - March 2013 Excerpt: More than ever since my near death experience, I consider myself a Christian -,,, Now, I can tell you that if someone had asked me, in the days before my NDE, what I thought of this (Easter) story, I would have said that it was lovely. But it remained just that -- a story. To say that the physical body of a man who had been brutally tortured and killed could simply get up and return to the world a few days later is to contradict every fact we know about the universe. It wasn't simply an unscientific idea. It was a downright anti-scientific one. But it is an idea that I now believe. Not in a lip-service way. Not in a dress-up-it's-Easter kind of way. I believe it with all my heart, and all my soul.,, We are, really and truly, made in God's image. But most of the time we are sadly unaware of this fact. We are unconscious both of our intimate kinship with God, and of His constant presence with us. On the level of our everyday consciousness, this is a world of separation -- one where people and objects move about, occasionally interacting with each other, but where essentially we are always alone.?But this cold dead world of separate objects is an illusion. It's not the world we actually live in.,,, ,He (God) is right here with each of us right now, seeing what we see, suffering what we suffer... and hoping desperately that we will keep our hope and faith in Him. Because that hope and faith will be triumphant. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eben-alexander-md/the-easter-question_b_2979741.html
bornagain77
May 7, 2021
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Seversky claims that,
"We never observe consciousness to exist apart from a physical brain."
I guess that in order to maintain an Atheistic worldview it is absolutely necessary to blatantly ignore any and all scientific evidence that directly contradicts your materialistic worldview. Besides Seversky blatantly ignoring the fact that he has no clue how unguided material processes can generate even a single neuron of our 'beyond belief' brain in the first place.
"Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 8, 2012 Excerpt: Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. https://www.cnet.com/news/human-brain-has-more-switches-than-all-computers-on-earth/ "The brain is not a supercomputer in which the neurons are transistors; rather it is as if each individual neuron is itself a computer, and the brain a vast community of microscopic computers. But even this model is probably too simplistic since the neuron processes data flexibly and on disparate levels, and is therefore far superior to any digital system. If I am right, the human brain may be a trillion times more capable than we imagine, and “artificial intelligence” a grandiose misnomer." - Brian Ford research biologist – 2009 - The Secret Power of a Single Cell
And besides Seversky blatantly ignoring millions of testimonies from Near Death Experiences that testify to experiencing their consciousness apart from their physical brain,
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. - Of note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
Besides Sevesrky blatantly ignoring those 'inconvenient' facts, there is another rather glaring defect in Seversky's claim that,
"We never observe consciousness to exist apart from a physical brain."
Even if Seversky's claim that "we never observe consciousness to exist apart from a physical brain" were true (and we did not have all these millions of Near Death testimonies testifying to the contrary), Seversky still runs into this rather embarrassing difficulty for his materialistic worldview. As has been repeatedly demonstrated by experiments in quantum mechanics, physical reality simply does not exist apart from our conscious observation of it. As the following article states, "reality does not exist when we're not observing it."
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: Many realizations of the thought experiment have indeed verified the violation of Bell's inequality. These have ruled out all hidden-variables theories based on joint assumptions of realism, meaning that reality exists when we are not observing it; and locality, meaning that separated events cannot influence one another instantaneously. But a violation of Bell's inequality does not tell specifically which assumption – realism, locality or both – is discordant with quantum mechanics. Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger and colleagues from the University of Vienna, however, have now shown that realism is more of a problem than locality in the quantum world. They devised an experiment that violates a different inequality proposed by physicist Anthony Leggett in 2003 that relies only on realism, and relaxes the reliance on locality. To do this, rather than taking measurements along just one plane of polarization, the Austrian team took measurements in additional, perpendicular planes to check for elliptical polarization. They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640
And as the following extension of Wheeler's delayed choice experiment, (that was done with atoms instead of being done with photons), stated, “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,”
New Mind-blowing Experiment Confirms That Reality Doesn’t Exist If You Are Not Looking at It - June 3, 2015 Excerpt: Some particles, such as photons or electrons, can behave both as particles and as waves. Here comes a question of what exactly makes a photon or an electron act either as a particle or a wave. This is what Wheeler’s experiment asks: at what point does an object ‘decide’? The results of the Australian scientists’ experiment, which were published in the journal Nature Physics, show that this choice is determined by the way the object is measured, which is in accordance with what quantum theory predicts. “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” said lead researcher Dr. Andrew Truscott in a press release.,,, “The atoms did not travel from A to B. It was only when they were measured at the end of the journey that their wave-like or particle-like behavior was brought into existence,” he said. Thus, this experiment adds to the validity of the quantum theory and provides new evidence to the idea that reality doesn’t exist without an observer. http://themindunleashed.org/2015/06/new-mind-blowing-experiment-confirms-that-reality-doesnt-exist-if-you-are-not-looking-at-it.html
My question to Seversky is this, "How in blue blazes is it possible for consciousness to 'emerge' from the physical brain when the physical realm itself simply does not even exist until we consciously observe it?" As should be needless to say, this presents an irresolvable dilemma for Atheistic materialists. Namely, Darwinian materialists are claiming that consciousness came from, (i.e. 'emerged' from), something physical that is itself ultimately dependent on the prior existence of consciousness, and/or the prior existence of conscious observation, for its own existence. As Scott Aaronson of MIT put the dilemma for Atheistic Materialists, "Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists,,,, But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!"
Lecture 11: Decoherence and Hidden Variables - Scott Aaronson - MIT associate Professor (Quantum Computation) Excerpt: "Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!" http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec11.html
And in fact, due to such experiments as these from Quantum Mechanics that have repeatedly shown us that physical reality does not exist apart from our conscious observation of it, the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this,
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality (Jerry Coyne). or is an intrinsic property of material reality, (panpsychism, Philip Goff) 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality (Jerry Coyne). or is an intrinsic property of material reality, (panpsychism, Philip Goff), then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Eight intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness must precede material reality (Double Slit experiment, Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, as well as the recent confirmation of the Wigner's friend thought experiment, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect, Quantum Information theory, and the recent closing of the Free Will loophole.)
Moreover, as Anton Zeilinger stated in the following interview, it is not only we ourselves that don't know where the material particle is prior to our conscious observation of it. "The particle itself does not know where it is."
Anton Zeilinger interviewed about Quantum Mechanics - video - 2018 (The essence of Quantum Physics for a general audience) 40 sec: Every object has to be in a definite place is not true anymore.,,, The thought that a particle can be at two places at the same time is (also) not good language. The good language it that there are situations where it is completely undefined where the particle is. (and it is not just us (we ourselves) that don't know where the particle is, the particle itself does not know where it is). This "nonexistence" is an objective feature of reality.,,, 5:10 min:,,, superposition is not limited to small systems,,, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82XCvgnpmA
bornagain77
May 7, 2021
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JVL:
The unguided evolutionary paradigm says new species (and therefore forms) arise through universal common descent via inheritable modifications.
Heritable modifications to what, exactly? The point being is that no one knows of any naturalistic mechanism capable of producing eukaryotes, let alone the diversity of life. Buy a dictionary and learn how to use it. Then you will see that design is a mechanism by definition. Only the illiterate think that design is only a mental activity. Inferring design actually explains quite a bit. For one it means that nature didn't do it. For another it points to intent and purpose. And still again it points to the fact we may be able to reproduce it. That said, archaeologists always determine that design exists BEGFORE attempting to figure out when, who and why. We still don't know who designed and built Stonehenge. We still don't know why or how. Everything we know came from centuries of research. And Stonehenge is something we can duplicate. So only a fool would think that we should have to know how life was designed when we obviously don't have the knowledge to duplicate the feat. The science of ID is in the detection and study of design in nature. That people like JVL refuse to grasp that fact just proves they are trolls on an agenda.ET
May 7, 2021
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JVL "Now, I may be wrong . . ." Yes, you are wrong. You have been told countless times that ID does not address these issues. You don't seem to be capable of understanding that.Barry Arrington
May 7, 2021
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Barry Arrington: Design has the benefit of actually being an explanation as opposed to a semantic dodge. Hmmm . . . I don't think that's true. The unguided evolutionary paradigm says new species (and therefore forms) arise through universal common descent via inheritable modifications. There are various kinds of 'selection' which 'guide' the process and some other factors like genetic drift. Sometimes it's possible to narrow down when various forms arose. So, there's a mechanism, a time line, no 'who' of course, no 'why' of course (except that many new forms were better adapted to their environment then their predecessors and thus (sometimes) out competed them). NOT a complete explanation but there's something there to work with. Now, I may be wrong but I haven't heard a general consensus what the science of ID has to say about when design was implemented, how design was implemented, why design was implemented and what implemented design. I know some individuals have ideas on those questions but there seems to be no central dogma yet. Not saying it won't happen just that it hasn't yet. And I still don't see how design (a mental activity) is a mechanism. Without implementation design is just a mental construct. Design can lead to implementation which, via physical methods and mechanisms, leads to new forms. Obviously. But just inferring design doesn't really explain much. It's like saying the sky is blue or a rock is heavy. Design is more a quality or characteristic without explaining how it came to be designed. Just my opinion obviously.JVL
May 7, 2021
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seversky:
We never observe consciousness to exist apart from a physical brain.
That is a lie or it is pure willful ignorance. But that is how materialists operate, via lies and willful ignorance.ET
May 7, 2021
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It's true that "emergence" or "emergent properties" is a placeholder for an explanatory causal chain that we do not have yet but it does imply that there is reason to think one may be there. We never observe consciousness to exist apart from a physical brain. We do observe that, if the brain associated with a consciousness ceases to function, that consciousness disappears - irretrievably as far as we can tell. And if the brain is not the source of consciousness, what other reason could there be for the body to make such a major metabolic investment in maintaining such a hugely complex organ? None of the above explains how consciousness could emerge from the electro-chemical activity in the physical brain but it makes the possibility a reasonable inference.Seversky
May 6, 2021
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Chemical reactions are not emergent. They are repeatable and predictable. The [false] darwinist claim is that life emerged (meaning only once, not predictable and not repeatable) and that monkeys turned into humans (fish into tetrapods, etc). Only once! So the issue is "one time" vs "all the time"Nonlin.org
May 6, 2021
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To be honest, I don’t know if consciousness is an “emergent” property of the brain. But I am not willing to ignore the possibility.paige
May 6, 2021
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VL --"But is there any way (and I’m interested in the general situation illustrated by this example) to look at a situation and ascertain ahead of time what it is and isn’t capable of causing?" In large part, science is a search for causes. If you want to find causes, do science. If you want to rule out causes, do science. I have nothing else to say on the matter since the main theme of this thread, the tautological nature of materialistic reductionism, has been ignored and I don't want to contribute to that neglect by addressing other issues.StephenB
May 6, 2021
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Thanks, Stephen. I have two replies. First, I asked three questions in my last paragraph about the use of the word "emergent". Do you have thoughts on them? Also, you write, "However, your question misses the point: We don’t use scientific experiments to test the reliability of reason’s rules: we use reason’s rules to test the reliability of scientific experiments." I'm not sure which of my questions this refers to, but I'm not questioning the validity of the rule of reason you mention. What I am wondering about is how we apply it: that is, how do we know that a cause has within it the power to give something other than by seeing that it in fact does give it? Is there a way to examine something and ascertain ahead of time what it does and does not have the power to give? In this example, we know that somehow sodium and chlorine have the power to make salt because they do in fact make salt: the power to do so must reside in the sodium and chlorine. But is there any way (and I'm interested in the general situation illustrated by this example) to look at a situation and ascertain ahead of time what it is and isn't capable of causing?Viola Lee
May 6, 2021
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I don't think Darwinian Atheists should ever be pointing to chemical elements to support any conjecture that they may make within their materialistic worldview.
"My new book, ("The Miracle of the Cell"), is focused on the fitness of the actual atoms which build the whole cell from the bottom up. And this is a fitness, of course, which long preceded the architecture of the cell. It had to be there before you build the architecture.,,, Because when you look at the basic atoms which are used to build the substances of the cell, (we find) they are "amazingly" fine tuned to an incredible degree to serve all sorts of specific biological and biochemical ends. I mean its absolutely amazing when you look at the (evidence),, You have to read the book, , ("The Miracle of the Cell"), of course, to go through the evidence yourself. But basically, they are amazingly fine tuned, and these are the atoms which build the cell." - Michael Denton: The Miracle of the Cell - video - 7:50 minute mark - https://youtu.be/JbOucj4ySjg?t=475
bornagain77
May 6, 2021
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VL: ---"Or is the word “emergent” basically a useless word? If so, is there a better word to describe the situation where certain constituent parts combine to produce something substantially different?" In the context of "mind emerging from brain" it is totally useless and inexcusably misleading. In the context of chemical reactions, I suppose it could serve some purpose.StephenB
May 6, 2021
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VL: ---"Other than the fact that they obviously do have the power, because they do make salt, what is “in” sodium and chlorine that makes that a possibility?" I suspect that it is related to the power inherent in the process of chemical bonding and the transfer of electrons. However, your question misses the point: We don’t use scientific experiments to test the reliability of reason’s rules: we use reason’s rules to test the reliability of scientific experiments.StephenB
May 6, 2021
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Hello Stephen. I'm not talking about evolution at all (probably never have on this forum), but I am interested in this subject of how we explain how things in the world combine to produce new things. So, if we stay with the example of sodium and chlorine combining to make table salt, how would that be consistent with your statement, "Every effect requires a proportionate cause. This principle confirms that a cause cannot give what it does not have to give." In what way do sodium and chlorine have the power to "cause" salt? Other than the fact that they obviously do have the power, because they do make salt, what is "in" sodium and chlorine that makes that a possibility? And, back to an earlier comment, is the word "emergent" at all applicable here, as in saying, table salt, as a substance with the properties it has, emerges from simpler elements? Or is the word "emergent" basically a useless word? If so, is there a better word to describe the situation where certain constituent parts combine to produce something substantially different?Viola Lee
May 6, 2021
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Evolutionists often use the term “emergence” to bypass an important rule of right reason: Every effect requires a proportionate cause. This principle confirms that a cause cannot give what it does not have to give. Through experience, we have learned that naturalistic forces, acting alone, have some power, but they cannot give to an evolutionary process something they don’t have to give, namely, the capacity to change one life form into another life form. The scholastics one explained the point in seven words: “The cause is nobler than the effect.” What they meant was that there is always more substance in the former than in the latter. There is more to the cabinet maker than his cabinet, more to the painter than his painting. Emergent theorists get it backwards. For them, the effect is nobler than the cause; evolution contains more substance than the process that is alleged to have brought it about. In short, emergent theorists think that you can get more from less. It is an irrational attack on the law of cause and effect. In a culture as illiterate as ours, they can get away with it. It will be harder for them to get away with it on this thread.StephenB
May 6, 2021
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Hi Barry. I'm wondering if you've read my post at 16, and have any reply? I would like it if your OP didn't stand, as it does, misrepresenting me or my one brief comment on this thread. And if I understand you correctly, "emerged" is an adequate descriptor, although perhaps not an "explanation", for things that happen in chemistry: the question of what counts as an explanation is a bigger, interesting topic in this thread. Also, you write, "It is utterly mysterious how salt comes from mixing sodium and chloride, and it is utterly mysterious how water comes from mixing oxygen and hydrogen." I don't believe that is entirely utterly mysterious. What we know about the electron structure of those elements and the idea of ionic bonding explains some of why sodium and chlorine form a crystal solid, and the same is true of the way hydrogen and oxygen combine to make water. However, all explanations call out for deeper explanations, so at any time, I think, there are practical considerations as what level of explanation we are looking for and would be satisfied with.Viola Lee
May 6, 2021
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JVL "But, does the design hypothesis offer anything better, i.e. more explanatory? " Yes, design. Design has the benefit of actually being an explanation as opposed to a semantic dodge.Barry Arrington
May 6, 2021
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JVL:
Okay, here’s a question . . . if you say something is designed without offering any further explanation (such as where or how or why or who) could that not also be classified as a useless explanation?
No, for the reasons that have been explained to you scores of times, about which information you are, apparently, invincibly ignorant.Barry Arrington
May 6, 2021
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ET: To say that consciousness is emergent is to say that, thanks to evolutionary biology, science doesn’t have a clue how consciousness arose. And most likely never will until we rid ourselves of the useless paradigm that is blind watchmaker evolution. But, does the design hypothesis offer anything better, i.e. more explanatory? Just saying it was designed to happen doesn't really explain anything . . . unless we know something about the when at least, how would be good too, who would really help, all that might lead towards answering why. Then you'd have a real explanation.JVL
May 6, 2021
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Jerry: It’s common in evolutionary biology to just say something evolved. It’s not an explanation. It’s a begging the question. In other words it’s a useless explanation. Using the word “emergence” is equally useless but just sounds better. Okay, here's a question . . . if you say something is designed without offering any further explanation (such as where or how or why or who) could that not also be classified as a useless explanation? Without having presumptions about the who or why?JVL
May 6, 2021
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Barry @ 15 - I'm afraid I can't see where you answered my question. I'm trying to unpick your comment @ 6.Bob O'H
May 6, 2021
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Barry writes, "Unsurprisingly, our materialist interlocutors point to the fact that “emergence” as a general concept is commonplace and therefore “emergence” as an explanation for consciousness is perfectly adequate. " 1. I am not a materialist, and consider consciousness as an experiential fact separate from the material brain. 2. I don't think either Bob or I said anything close to " “emergence” as an explanation for consciousness is perfectly adequate. " Our questions and comments were much more general, and not at all specifically about consciousness. We did not make the claims that Barry seems to assume we were making. I'd like to be accurately represented, please.Viola Lee
May 6, 2021
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Viola and Bob, I answer your comments in an update to the OP.Barry Arrington
May 6, 2021
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It’s definitely possible that certain molecular compounds when combined produce unforeseen results. So to say the properties of these unforeseen results emerged is appropriate but not an explanation. If one wants to point to an explanation for the emergence it is better to point to the properties of matter and their interactions. This again is a begging the question. The real question then becomes how did these properties of matter arise? Also what’s not possible to say is that the code for the construction of these molecules in biology emerged because the codes producing these molecules is so complicated and precise, only an intelligence could have organized it. A good example of molecular interactions is water. The hydrogen and oxygen atoms form polar opposite electromagnetic attractions. This enables water to dissolve many things such as salt. This is well understood. But I’m not sure if the physical properties of water, response to temperature, size and hardness, is equally understood. And of course that emergent property is essential for life. Look up at the sky and one sees an incredible deign of a water transport system that moves water around the globe. Was this system designed or did it emerge? The answer is it was designed to emerge.jerry
May 6, 2021
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To say that consciousness is emergent is to say that, thanks to evolutionary biology, science doesn't have a clue how consciousness arose. And most likely never will until we rid ourselves of the useless paradigm that is blind watchmaker evolution.ET
May 6, 2021
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Emergence is when many independent decisions produce a pattern. In evolution theory the random mutations substitute for independent decisions.mohammadnursyamsu
May 6, 2021
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If emergent is not a good term, what is?
Emergence is an appropriate term for molecular compounds. However, emerge is a BS term for evolution. As Kf said it’s a term used when there is no explanation. It’s common in evolutionary biology to just say something evolved. It’s not an explanation. It’s a begging the question. In other words it’s a useless explanation. Using the word “emergence” is equally useless but just sounds better.jerry
May 6, 2021
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Barry - is the only possible explanation for something that it emerges from something else?Bob O'H
May 6, 2021
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