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Emergence Redux

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In a very thoughtful essay that deserves its own post, vjtorley writes:

As someone with a background in philosophy, I’d like to make a few brief comments on the issues raised [in the Materialist Poofery” post]:

Regarding reduction, emergence and supervenience: these philosophical terms have multiple definitions in the literature.

One place where I might suggest that people begin is Dr. Richard Cameron’s brilliant dissertation, Teleology In Aristotle And Contemporary Biology: An Account of The Nature Of Life – especially pages 254 to 279. I think Richard Cameron’s work will be congenial to contributors of all points of view, as he has something that will please nearly everyone here: he is both an avowed Aristotelian (and hence a believer in final causes) and a thoroughgoing Darwinist.
One point which Cameron makes is that belief in emergence is perfectly compatible with very strong varieties of reduction:

Again, however, emergentists need not fear and may positively endorse the search for this type of a reductive account of emergent novelties. They may affirm the existence of causal correlations between basal conditions and emergent properties strong enough to support the formulation of laws and theories that microcausally explain the emergence of emergent novelities. Nevertheless, there remains clear sense to the emergentist’s claim that having a well confirmed explanatory theory of how Xs give rise to Ys does not entail that Ys are ‘nothing over and above’ Xs. Ys may still constitute a genuine – and in a sense still to be defined an irreducible – addition to the ontology of the world conceived only in terms of the Xs (p. 269).

The only kind of reduction which is fatal to emergentism is reduction by property identity, as when one property is actually equated with another – for instance, the temperature of an ideal gas can be defined as the mean kinetic energy of its molecules. Thus “[a] candidate emergent property qualifies as a genuine emergent novelty if and only if it is not identical in kind to a kind of property which can be had by the component parts of the system from which it emerges in isolation from structures that type” (p. 270).

Cameron regards Aristotelian final causality as a genuinely emergent property, which is causally efficacious in the world – in other words, he believes in and argues for the reality of top-down causation.

Thus Aristotelian final causation (or the possession of intrinsic ends), which Cameron regards as the defining property of life, is a strongly ontologically emergent property for Cameron. The property of final causation, although causally dependent for its existence on the interactions between the physical parts of an organism, cannot be identified with any of these interactions, either singly or in combination; also, this property possesses causal powers which are not found in the parts and their interactions.

Cameron is not a vitalist; as he makes plain throughout his work (see p. 40), he believes that the property of being alive depends for its existence on the interactions between the physical parts of an organism. Thus:

It is a fundamental claim of emergentists, recall, that emergent properties and their powers are causally dependent upon the interactions of base properties and entities… (p. 278).

A good discussion of the property of supervenience can be found in the article, Supervenience in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

A short extract:

The core idea of supervenience is captured by the slogan, “there cannot be an A-difference without a B-difference.” … A-properties supervene on B-properties if and only if a difference in A-properties requires a difference in B-properties — or, equivalently, if and only if exact similarity with respect to B-properties guarantees exact similarity with respect to A-properties.

Now, in this sense, the property of being alive clearly supervenes upon the properties of an organism’s parts: it is not possible to have two entities with the same physico-chemical properties, where one is alive and the other dead.

As regards consciousness, I personally would be happy to say that it supervenes upon the properties of an animal’s brain and central nervous system (some scientists would add the interactional properties between the animal and its environment to this list of underlying properties, but that has little bearing on the point here). To say otherwise would imply that there could be two animals with the same physical properties, where one animal possesses consciousness and the other lacks it.

I do think, though, that there is a kind of reflective consciousness which is unique to human beings – no other animal, as far as I know, says to itself: “Isn’t consciousness a wonderful thing!” I don’t regard this kind of consciousness as a supervenient property.

The boundary between humans and other animals is notoriously difficult to specify in scientific terms. I would recommend Moti Nissani’s Web page at http://www.is.wayne.edu/mnissani/ for an overview of the recent literature, presented in a highly attractive form. Nissani’s lecture, Can Animals (Especially Elephants) Think? is especially illuminating.

Nissani tentatively concludes that elephants do not understand simple causal relationships (e.g. I need to lift the lid of the bucket to get the food) and that both chimps and elephants do not realize that people can see. In other words, they lack what psychologists call a “theory of mind.”

If Nissani’s conclusions hold up, there are some pretty profound differences between humans and chimps – and presumably, other animals as well.

Much has been made of the feats of Betty the crow, who can fashion a hook to get a piece of meat. At first blush, this seems to indicate rationality; but can Betty justify her actions if we ask her, “Why did you do it that way?” Does she evince any capacity for critical thinking?

Critical thinking is not something yu can put in a box. It cannot be identified with a single process or set of processes; rather, it requires one to take a step back from one’s accustomed ways of thinking and re-evaluate them.

It is my contention that critical thinking must be treated as an essentially open-ended process, and that to treat it otherwise would be fatal to the scientific enterprise. Engaging in critical thinking involves more than just looking up a Web site on logical fallacies and “running through the list” to see that one’s own reasoning is immune from any fallacy. For the enterprise of critical thinking is a never-ending quest: new ways of thinking are continually being discovered and evaluated, and new flaws in people’s thinking are continually being identified.

What has all this got to do with (i) science and (ii) materialism? Suppose that the enterprise of critical thinking turned out to be an emergent property of the human organism, which additionally supervenes upon the brain’s neural network properties, so that (theoretically) two individuals with the same neural architecture, placed in the same environment, would necessarily have the same thoughts. Since the brain itself is finite, the enterprise of critical thinking, if generated by the brain, would then be limited in terms of the number of “creative moves” we could make, and also the number of flaws of thinking we could spot, at any given point in time. In other words, even critical thinking would be algorithmic. For my purposes, it does not matter what kinds of algorithms we engage in during critical thinking – heuristics, Turing procedures or what have you. The point I am making is that on a materialist account, even our critical thinking would have systematic blind spots, at any given time.

What would that mean, in scientific terms? It would mean that there are probably scientific hypotheses out there which our brains are unable to dream up, because they’re wired the wrong way. It also means that there are flaws in our hypotheses that we’re unable to spot, because of our neural limitations. Finally, it means that there are scientific hypotheses that we’re attached to, for the wrong reasons – could Darwinism be one of them? Haha – that hold an unreasonable sway over our thinking, but our brains are too set in their ways for us to consider the possibility that some other hypothesis might be right instead.

In other words, on a materialist account, science itself is a make-shift enterprise, and we have no particular reason to believe that we’ll move any closer to the truth with the passage of time. We could easily get side-tracked in our task and stuck up a scientific blind alley. There could be all sorts of reasons why we fail to discover the truth, and the much-vaunted success of the scientific enterprise over the past 400 years could be just a lucky accident which ends tomorrow. Mauka claims that “[i]ndividuals with better brains tend to survive and reproduce better than those with addled brains,” but even a “better” brain may not be able to come up with the right hypothesis, and practical survival skills are not the same as the skills you need to dream up the Theory of Relativity. Also, materialism entails that at any given time, we all probably accept a large number of scientific hypotheses on irrational grounds.

Materialism also implies that like it or not, we’re probably doomed as a species within the next 200 years. Sooner or later, the complexity of our problems will outstrip the capacity of our finite brains to meet them. Global warming is already giving us enough of a headache; after that it’ll be something else (ocean acidification?), and we’ll probably be laid low in the end by something out of the blue that our stupid brains didn’t see coming.

Now, most scientific materialists believe all this stuff anyway; they just don’t let on, for fear of alarming the populace. If challenged, most of them will retort: “So what? Science may be riddled with blind spots, but it’s the best procedure we’ve got. What’s your alternative? Blind faith? The Inquisition?”

No, my alternative is a scientific enterprise which works better than modern science, because it is slightly more modest: it enquires about everything except one question: how is it that we are able to reason critically? If we forego asking this question, and just assume that critical thought is unbounded, we can avoid the skepticism that materialism led us into.

For it is my contention that it was precisely the brash attempt to put critical thought in a box as part of a scientific quest to explain everything within a materialist paradigm that got us into trouble in the first place. If we do that, and try to make critical thought supervene upon brain processes, then we have to identify critical thought a finite algorithm or set of algorithms, which may fail to properly grasp the cosmos we live in.

But if you are prepared to just assume at the outset that critical thought is an open, unbounded process which is not limited to a set of algorithms, then if you are a scientist, you will feel confident that your mind can handle any task the world throws at it. You will expect that as you make further discoveries, you come closer to the truth. You will realize that there are flaws in your thinking, but you will also realize that you (or your colleagues) are fully capable of spotting them, with time, patience and argumentation. You will expect the spirited exchange of opposing ideas to bear fruit, and help people to sharpen their thinking.

Of course, you will encounter many limitations in your thinking – such as your inability to think in 18 dimensions. But then you will step back, ask yourself why – “My poor brain sees the world in three dimensions” – and design devices (computers) that enable you to get around the limitations of your brain. In other words, using your unbounded mind, you will be able to step back from your brain and overcome its deficiencies.

So there’s the choice. Accept as an “article of faith” that critical thought is a universal tool that is applicable to any problem in the material world, and you can do good science, but you won’t be able to explain everything, because you’ll never know how you think. That’s your one “blind spot” as it were: you can understand the world, but you can never hope to understand yourself.

But if you insist on explaining everything, you’ll explain yourself away too, and cut yourself – and your science – down to size. Gone is the magical quest for Truth; all our kludge of a brain can hope to do is make a set of lucky guesses that might get us through the next 200 years – or might lead us up the garden path. Some science!

Now, a scientist could accept as an “article of faith” that critical thought is a universal tool, without asking why (methodological agnosticism). That’s reasonable. But if he/she asks, “What kind of entity would guarantee that I can think straight?” then he/she is asking a metaphysical question, not a scientific one. In that case, the only satisfactory answer is: a Being whose nature it is to know everything that can be known. (”But how does it do that?” – Don’t ask me! And why should we expect to understand the answer the answer to that question, anyway?)

A Being like that, if it designed the cosmos, is likely to have made the world’s problems tractable to our minds, so we don’t have to waste our time wallowing about some unforeseeable environmental Armageddon. We just need to stay sharp and proactive.

I’ll conclude with a quote from the late Canadian neuroscientist Wilder Penfield, whose research led him to reject supervenience on empirical grounds:

The electrode can present to the patient various crude sensations. It can cause him to turn head and eyes, or to move limbs, or to vocalize and swallow. It may recall vivid re-experiences of the past, or present to him an illusion that present experience is familiar, or that the things he sees are growing large and coming near. But he remains aloof. He passes judgment on it all. He says, “Things seem familiar,” not “I have been through this before.” He says, “Things are growing larger,” but he does not move for fear of being run over. If the electrode moves his right hand, he does not say, “I wanted to move it.” He may, however, reach over with the left hand and oppose the action. There is no place in the cerebral cortex where electrical stimulation will cause a patient to believe or to decide (Wilder Penfield, 1975, “The Mystery of the Mind,” p. 77, emphasis mine).

Well, materialists, the ball’s in your court. The empirical evidence is actually against you, and if you were right, science wouldn’t be much of an enterprise anyway. Not sharing your narrow mindset, I am confident that science will indeed discover the Truth about the world – even if who we are will always be a mystery to us.

Comments
Nullasalus:
I’m aware of his intentional stance. I think it’s a great example of a ‘naturalistic account of intentionality’ that sounds persuasive only insofar as it’s ambiguous. Remove the ambiguity and either the persuasiveness is gone, or we’ve left the world of naturalism.
Could you say more on this ambiguity? I must say I find Dennett's position pretty convincing and satisfying, so I'm interested in hearing your objection.Sotto Voce
April 27, 2009
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But the number of alternative explanations is very large (perhaps even infinite), and the number of creative moves our brain can generate is relatively small. So it is quite likely that we shall examine only a very small sector of the “possibility set” in our search for alternatives - especially when we only have a limited amount of time.
So are you saying that on your non-materialist alternative the scientist actually explores all (or most) of this possibility set of alternatives in a finite amount of time? This is wildly implausible. It seems like the same sort of time constraints that limit the number of explanations that a brain can consider should constrain the operation of a non-material mind. It is not the case that all the "cool, creative moves" available to us are inplemented simultaneously in parallel. If the actual explanation for a certain phenomenon is distant enough from our current modes of explanation we will not alight upon it without some prior progress in our conceptual scheme. This is true whether or not materialism is true.Sotto Voce
April 27, 2009
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The “wiring” argument presented here, while ingenious, and even fun, probably isn’t necessary to the restoration of philosophy. In fact restoration may require almost the opposite strategy from embracing unbounded intellect. Unbounded intellect is the very thing that led to the stasis now evident in philosophy as well as institutional science—specifically the critical power of Nihilism. Nothingness is a static value—pure resistance—which is why it leads to the kind of static, formal conclusions seen in Darwinism. Materialism is also a product of unbounded intellect, a theory of being in which nothing in science has value unless it exhibits absolute resistance to teleological inferences. And absolute resistance is a quality of mind, not of matter. Antitheses like materialism lead to static conclusions because they are rooted in the capacity of intellect for resistance. Intellect cannot overcome this resistance through its own force of resistance. It is possible, however, to restore dynamism to philosophy by using the self-evident value of the sensuous universe to suggest reasonable limits to intellect and its critical power. A clear analogy can be found in Kant’s response to Descartes, whose glorification of intellect as a transcendent (unbounded) power had the unintended effect of devaluing sense and producing nothingness in science, philosophy and the arts. This is just what is happening as we speak, by the way, in the basic (ie, non-theoretical) sciences, where the excellence of the cellular machinery is overthrowing the notion that something can come from nothing.allanius
April 27, 2009
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I will have to ponder a lot of what you said, vjtorley, but I will say this: I never understood the belief that our brains "naturally evolved" over millions of years, which suddenly are able to build space shuttles and Large Hadron Colliders. What selective pressure could have possibly led to these abilities? I at least understand the logic behind a gazelle whose ancestors "evolved" the knowledge to run away from cheetas and lions while eating grass and drinking water. But modern human inventions completely defy this logic. I guess the genes that make the circuits in our brain just "hit on" a level of rationality that is astronomically greater than anything else present in the biological kingdom?uoflcard
April 27, 2009
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Allen MacNeill, "Do you therefore assert that artificial intelligence is, in fact, impossible, regardless of processor speed, size, and range? Because it seems so from your statement, here." By my view, the AI issue is moot when it comes to this question - we're trying to justify the rationality/reason of humans right now given mechanistic materialism, and to do so in a way where MM is actually maintained, rather than either an explanation not being given, or the explanation taking on aspects and assumptions that aren't available in a thorough MM picture. Sotto Voce, "You are suggesting that the truth of materialism implies we can only trust direct observation, not theoretical reasoning. Why? The brain has evolved the ability to make inferences about unobservable entities, and there is good reason to think this cognitive ability is at least somewhat reliable. I hear a certain sort of rustling in the bushes, and my survival depends on whether I can correctly identify it as predator, prey or neither before I actually see it. There is reason to think, then, the brain can infer hidden truths from partial and indirect evidence. Obviously, the inferences involved in science are far more complex and difficult, but the difference seems to be one of degree, not of kind." Your survival doesn't depend on the truth or falsity of your beliefs whatsoever, given the popular orthodox view of evolution. It depends wholly on your action. Believe it's a predator, believe it's prey, believe it's the wind - so long as you act in a way that on average will increase survival, you're covered. Having a true belief doesn't matter. (Indeed, look at how often this or that explanation of human behavior in evolutionary terms melts down to 'This behavior was advantageous, even though the belief that likely accompanied it was typically false'. Does anyone talk about how the true beliefs of peppered moths aided their survival, or do they simply make reference to actions they took (or even were beyond their control) to completely explain their coloration changes?) Either way, I'm actually taking a stronger stance here. The truth of MM would pull the rug out from under rationality and reason as we know those terms anyway. Reworking evolution to be 'survival of those closest to the truth' would be closer to an example of sacrificing MM. "Indeed, the universe is non-intentional at the fundamental level. This does not mean it is incapable of supporting intentional systems. See the initial part of vjtorley’s thoughtful essay on emergent teleology. The point is that certain organizations of purposeless, mindless matter can produce systems that are appropriately characterized as goal-directed intentional agents." Considering vjtorley rejects MM, this is of little help here. And the Aristotilean understanding of final causes does not apply only to humans, or only to living systems - on Aristotileanism/Thomism, the MM view is rejected. We live in a world of realism about universals, of formal and final causes, etc. "I understand you are skeptical about this, but I do not see an argument against it in your post. To just assume at the outset that one cannot have purposive or teleological systems emerge out of an appropriate organization of purposeless matter is to beg the question against the materialist." I've been outlining the ground floor fact of the matter for the MM, and highlighting some of the confusions and difficulties in the debate. Nothing more - I certainly didn't say no MM explanation was possible. I'd love to see an MM explanation of rationality. "See Dennett's "The Intentional Stance" for more on a naturalistic account of intentionality." I'm aware of his intentional stance. I think it's a great example of a 'naturalistic account of intentionality' that sounds persuasive only insofar as it's ambiguous. Remove the ambiguity and either the persuasiveness is gone, or we've left the world of naturalism.nullasalus
April 27, 2009
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Joseph, you are on the edge of being booted. Knock it off.Barry Arrington
April 27, 2009
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SottoVoce Thank you for your comments. I'll try to keep my response to the point. You write:
First, I don’t get the move from “the brain is a finite system” to “the brain can only implement a finite number of algorithms”. The brain is finite but it is not closed.... While there is certainly a limit to the number and kinds of algorithms that can be run in a finite universe, we are currently nowhere even close to the limit.
We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. I think I can help clear up the misunderstanding by quoting an earlier passage of mine:
Since the brain itself is finite, the enterprise of critical thinking, if generated by the brain, would then be limited in terms of the number of “creative moves” we could make, and also the number of flaws of thinking we could spot, at any given point in time. In other words, even critical thinking would be algorithmic.
What I am claiming here is not that the number of algorithms is finite, but that the number of moves we can make at each step is finite, on a brain-based account of critical thinking. Here's the idea: a researcher engages in scientific reasoning and draws certain inferences from a hypothesis he/she has formulated. But before publishing his/her ideas in a scientific article, the researcher attempts to identify the critical weaknesses in it. To do that, the researcher will want to ask him/herself, "What have I overlooked? Are there any other reasonable alternative explanations of my findings that I have not considered? What alternative hypotheses are there?" If materialism is correct, then the human brain will have a finite repertoire of cool, creative moves allowing the researcher to generate these alternative possibilities in his/her head. But the number of alternative explanations is very large (perhaps even infinite), and the number of creative moves our brain can generate is relatively small. So it is quite likely that we shall examine only a very small sector of the "possibility set" in our search for alternatives - especially when we only have a limited amount of time. This brings us to the other factor we need to consider here: time constraints. Universal Turing Machines, which you mention, may require a very long time to generate the right answer. But time is precisely what you do not have. If the deadline for a scientific article's submission is tomorrow, you will have to finish your critical evaluation of it by then. If you are facing an environmental problem that needs to be addressed within the next 10 years, then you need to find the cause of the problem before then. This will become more of a problem as our lifestyle becomes more complex. Increasingly, our lifestyle changes will disturb our planet in ways which become harder and harder to model, because the effects become less and less predictable. You are optimistic that advantages in computing technology will keep us one step ahead of what the future will throw at us. I would answer that models are fine for foreseeable changes. But the problem is that when a sudden, unforeseen environmental change occurs - and these sudden, unforeseen changes are likely to become exponentially more common as our lifestyle changes - we will have to decide what to do with our old models of the Earth as a dynamic system: completely jettison them? radically modify them? insert new intructions? or just tweak them? To answer questions like this, we'll have to engage in critical thinking about our own scientific models - which is an enterprise our brains are eminently unsuited for. My point is that if materialism is true, then at some stage, we'll probably make a fatal mistake, caused by our own cognitive blindspots, and fall off the tightrope; for we cannot remain on it forever. The enterprise of looking for the remote causes of a pressing environmental crisis illustrates to me both: why you have to be some sort of realist (as I am) about the world, and why belief in materialism will dampen your confidence of success. You need to be a realist because you have to do more than conveniently systematize the observations; you actually need to find out what's actually causing an environmental disturbance, and do something about it, right away. While the term "cause" has lots of pragmatic significance, "cause" isn't a pragmatic term, but a metaphysical one. Either cigarettes often cause lung cancer, or they don't. Either rising CO2 levels will fry the planet, or they won't. The problem, as I see it, is that on an evolutionary materialist acount of the brain, we're very good at looking for the wrong kinds of causes - especially other malicious agents. The scientific way of thinking is highly unnatural for us, either individually or as a species. My point is that sooner or later, we'll be blinded by our own collective unwillingness to think out of the box. But if you're an evolutionary materialist, you'll realize that monkey brains are not really good at that sort of thing, anyway, so you'll be a lot more fatalistic about the long-term future of the scientific enterprise. I'll close with a quote from philosopher Patricia Churchland:
The principal chore of the nervous system is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive. Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing [the world] is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism's the organism's chances for survival. Truth, whatever it is, takes the hindmost. (See Journal of Philosphy 84, October 1987, p. 548.)
I'd also recommend that you have a look at Robin Dunbar's highly readable and entertaining book, The Trouble with Science at http://books.google.com/books?id=S8v3zhfOOZ4C&pg=PA96&dq=Lewis+Wolpert+science+unnatural#PPA120,M1 , which I just stumbled across today. Dunbar isn't an alarmist, but he does make a strong case that thinking scientifically is something that biological evolution has not equipped us to do - indeed, even thinking logically is hard for most of us to do, in certain situations. It is precisely because I believe that critical thinking is not a material process that I believe people can and will be trained to avoid the common logical pitfalls (e.g. the Wason Selection Task) that bedevil us now, and that people can and will be trained to be good critical thinkers.vjtorley
April 27, 2009
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Mr Vjtorley, A very interesting OP. If we understand critical thinking to be thinking about our own thinking processes, it is almost certainly a process of abstraction and model creation. It may include simulation, though that may be more important for modeling actions as opposed to thoughts. I agree that at any time, the modeling of a single person could be vulnerable to all of our human frailties, but repeated acts of modeling across multiple people makes it less likely that we have a blibd spot in a social process such as science. As an analogy, it is difficult for an optical illusion to fool multiple people at the same time - that is why 3D TV is not common! Science, taken as a public enterprise, is vulnerable to blind spots. But at the same time, it is improvable. Sir Isaac Newton is know for four major contributions to science - calculus, optics, gravity, and an enormous negative result on alchemy. The last is as important as the first three.Nakashima
April 27, 2009
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See also Ernst Mayr's several essays on teleology and teleonomy (the latter being essentially "emergent teleology").Allen_MacNeill
April 27, 2009
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Sorry, in my last post the paragraph beginning "If mechanistic materialism is true..." is actually a quote from nullusalus. I forgot to blockquote it.Sotto Voce
April 27, 2009
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Nullusalus:
It’s that we’ll have little reason to accept scientific explanations as the truth about realities or ideas that can’t be directly tested or repeated.
I think there are good arguments against naive realism about scientific theories (see Putnam's "Reason, Truth and History" or Van Fraassen's "The Scientific Image") and I have already disavowed it. Still, I don't see how the failure of realism is a consequence of materialism. You are suggesting that the truth of materialism implies we can only trust direct observation, not theoretical reasoning. Why? The brain has evolved the ability to make inferences about unobservable entities, and there is good reason to think this cognitive ability is at least somewhat reliable. I hear a certain sort of rustling in the bushes, and my survival depends on whether I can correctly identify it as predator, prey or neither before I actually see it. There is reason to think, then, the brain can infer hidden truths from partial and indirect evidence. Obviously, the inferences involved in science are far more complex and difficult, but the difference seems to be one of degree, not of kind. If mechanistic materialism is true, there are no inherent purposes, reasons, or aspects of the mental at work in the universe at ground level. Fundamentally it’s mindless, experienceless, purposeless non-rational machineworks. The problem with that is.. hey, we’re here. And we’re rational. So how exactly are we going to account for that? Indeed, the universe is non-intentional at the fundamental level. This does not mean it is incapable of supporting intentional systems. See the initial part of vjtorley's thoughtful essay on emergent teleology. The point is that certain organizations of purposeless, mindless matter can produce systems that are appropriately characterized as goal-directed intentional agents. I understand you are skeptical about this, but I do not see an argument against it in your post. To just assume at the outset that one cannot have purposive or teleological systems emerge out of an appropriate organization of purposeless matter is to beg the question against the materialist. [See Dennett's "The Intentional Stance" for more on a naturalistic account of intentionality. The basic idea is that an intentional system is one whose behavior is best explained and predicted by conceptualizing it in intentional terms. Such a system may well be material/mechanical, but its physical complexity prevents a mechanistic explanation. If you don't have access to Dennett's book, consider reading this article, which summarizes his views.]Sotto Voce
April 27, 2009
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Sorry if I seemed to imply that mauka's comments should remain unposted. On the contrary, even if they simply repeated information in previous comments on previous threads, they still contained substantive information (unlike those posted by joseph and JohnADavison, whose comments almost uniformly consist of nothing but ad hominem name calling and character assassination, plus arguments by assertion, unsupported by evidence).Ergo, I, too, hereby request that mauka's "vanished" comments be reinstated, or (at the very least) that some explanation as to their removal (above and beyond simple redundancy) be forthcoming. After all, we can all simply scroll past the over-long and repetitive comments here, and can completely ignore (and refuse, on principle, to respond to) the kind of childish bullying that some commentators seem unable to stop themselves from perpetrating.Allen_MacNeill
April 27, 2009
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How sad that the discussion of emergence has been overshadowed by another discussion of moderation policy. My own proposal to move forward on this issue is to increase the transparency and slow down the speed of the process. A public warning should be part of the process, and the evidence left in public view. Is it possible to keep open a meta-thread on moderation? I think it would be useful, both for these discussions, and for discussions in the future where commenters may want to respond to warnings. In the present instance, I agree with several commenters that mauka's comments should be made visible again, and if he is in moderation, a reason given.Nakashima
April 27, 2009
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Alan, Thank you for proving my point. All cry-babies run around telling on people.Joseph
April 27, 2009
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For example: 191 Joseph 04/27/2009 8:19 am If I wanted to simulate Stonehenge do I have to include Stonehenge’s designers? Most theories about the design, purpose and construction of Stonehenge start with the assumption that the constructors were humans. That is meaningless and it doesn’t address my question. have you overlooked my previous queries about where you studied marine biology? Have YOU overlooked my previous queries about nested hierarchies being formed without additive characteristics? It appears you ahve. You have also overlooked several other questions asked of you. So if you want answers from me perhaps you should step up and start answering my questions. And if you don’t want to answer my questions then the only way I will answer your query is when we meet. Now I have already told you that and you continue to act like a little cry-baby. Oops- you are a little cry-baby… No disrespect meant to little babiesAlan Fox
April 27, 2009
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P.S. I understand Allen's point that perhaps mauka's reposting of his keeping score post might have been irritating, but compare that to kairosfocus's interminably long and repetitive posts, or bornagain's oft-posted long post on theistic predictions, or the rudeness and name calling of Joseph and John Davison. You could have said something to mauka about not reposting rather than just "disapperaing" his post (although one reason he reposted was that Barry started a new thread on the same topic). All in all, you need to be more consistent in your moderation, and be willing to let bad arguments stand if they aren't rude, don't attack the person, and aren't intentionally meant to disrupt the forum.hazel
April 27, 2009
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I think I'm going to stand with Diffaxial on this one. There is no reason, based on the stated moderation policy, for mauka's posts to have been deleted, and it is certainly unreasonable for that to happen without any acknowledgment or explanation. So, and this may not make any difference to anyone, I think I'll abstain from posting until this situation is cleared up, and until I feel comfortable that the stated moderation policy will be followed.hazel
April 27, 2009
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Not knowing (as usual) what mauka's comments were that were deleted (nor even if this has actually been the case) leaves everyone wondering if their comments will be arbitrarily deleted at the whim of this website's moderators. If it is, indeed, the case that such arbitrary moderation has been asymmetrically applied against the proponents of evolutionary biology, that would imply that the moderators fear for the soundness of arguments for their own side, rather than for the maintenance of civility and forthright debate. That said, I find very limited utility in the constant reiteration of some kind of "scorecard" for any of the debates that take place here. Let us argue the issues, and summarize them as best we can. "Keeping score" serves no purpose that I can see, rather than to attempt to convert what should be an open-ended process of intellectual investigation into a not-very-interesting game of tiddlywinks...Allen_MacNeill
April 27, 2009
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In #13 nullasalus wrote:
"Fundamentally it’s mindless, experienceless, purposeless non-rational machineworks."
Do you therefore assert that artificial intelligence is, in fact, impossible, regardless of processor speed, size, and range? Because it seems so from your statement, here. I believe that the point that Sotto Voce is making is that a program that runs on a processor is not itself limited in size and scope. A program can be virtually unlimited in size and scope, and with a sufficiently fast processor (with sufficient memory resources), should itself be virtually unlimited in its abilities. If you doubt this conclusion, simply ask yourself if the mind of God (or whatever/whoever you prefer to call That Which Is) is limited. Or, as it has been written about the Tao:
"The Way of Liberation is not limited The Way of Liberation has no boundaries Everyone and everything everywhere Resonate within it endlessly"
und so weiter...Allen_MacNeill
April 27, 2009
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vjtorley wrote:
mauka I think your comments deserve special attention, and I would like to thank you for posting them again, on this thread.
vjtorley, They do deserve attention. Your sincere thanks to Mauka, and your detailed response, indicate that they have merit as a move in the current discourse. However, apparently one of the moderators also thinks they are worthy of special attention and has chosen to delete them, along with several comments he posted on other threads. Mauka informs me that since then his new comments have not been appearing. In essence he has been silently banned. Surely you above all understand that genuine discourse is impossible when discussants on one side of an issue (and one side only) are sitting on trap doors that may open at any time at the whim of the other parties. That arrangement disinclines me to engage your complex arguments much further. Writings posts at this level is hard work and it is dismaying to see them disappear unpredictably into the void due to irritable moderation that is ungoverned by consistently applied principles. Mauka asked me to convey that he would like to respond to your arguments if and when his comments start appearing again, along with assurances from the moderators that they will not be arbitrarily purged.Diffaxial
April 27, 2009
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Sotto Voce, So your claim that materialism should lead to fairly extreme skepticism (such as the belief that we will soon encounter a problem beyond our abilities) is a bit overblown. The sort of skepticism that really seems to be on offer with materialism isn't that we'll encounter such a problem, in my estimation. It's that we'll have little reason to accept scientific explanations as the truth about realities or ideas that can't be directly tested or repeated. Still, I would disagree here - if anything, vjtorley is putting the case very mildly. The way I would put it is.. If mechanistic materialism is true, there are no inherent purposes, reasons, or aspects of the mental at work in the universe at ground level. Fundamentally it's mindless, experienceless, purposeless non-rational machineworks. The problem with that is.. hey, we're here. And we're rational. So how exactly are we going to account for that? If we were thoroughgoing about mechanistic materialism, then we'd be saying there's no mind or rationality and maybe not even conscious experience anywhere in the picture. But if we do that, then why are we arguing again? It collapses into absurdity. If we insist rationality and the like is a fundamental component of the universe, that's one option. But then we're out of mechanistic materialism anyway, and into a wide variety of alternatives (Panpsychism, idealism, dualisms, etc.) And one of the biggest problems and points of confusion here is that a lot of the 'materialist' explanations have a nasty habit (argued by the non-materialists) of smuggling in concepts and terminology that don't rightly belong to a properly materialist explanation. (It doesn't help that the words get loose or confusing in philosophy - Galen Strawson talks about 'real materialism' to resolve the consciousness question. Strawson's real materialism happens to be panpsychism.) So the options for the materialist are few and awkward. They not only have to offer an explanation, they have to do it while remaining true to materialist commitments, not relocating the problem elsewhere or leaving it out altogether.nullasalus
April 27, 2009
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For those who don't relish wading through my longwinded comment: here's the gist. Why do we need to assume that the possibilities available to our cognitive apparatus are literally infinite? What would be the cost of assuming they are finite but absolutely astronomical in number?Sotto Voce
April 26, 2009
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Interesting post, vjtorley. However, I'm having trouble with your central argument. Perhaps I don't fully understand it. First, I don't get the move from "the brain is a finite system" to "the brain can only implement a finite number of algorithms". The brain is finite but it is not closed. It can receive input from the world, and harness external resources to perform certain cognitive tasks (such as using a sheet of paper as external memory when doing a complicated arithmetic calculation). A Universal Turing Machine is a finite system, but it can harness an infinitude of possible inputs and an infinite external memory to implement any possible algorithm. Of course, given the finitude of matter in our Universe (or at least the accessible part of the Universe), we don't have access to infinite different inputs or infinite memory. But the cognitive resources available to us are still astronomical. While there is certainly a limit to the number and kinds of algorithms that can be run in a finite universe, we are currently nowhere even close to the limit. The idea that we are likely to hit some sort of cognitive barrier in the next couple of centuries is unfounded. In your post you seem to assume that the cognitive tasks within our reach are the ones that are tractable by an individual brain. But one of the great things about the human brain is, as mentioned above, its ability to harness external resources to increase the cognitive power devoted to a task. One of the great things about the scientific enterprise is that it is a distributed algorithm. A large number of cognitive agents exchange information in sophisticated ways to accomplish tasks beyond the reach of any individual genius. We are now constructing elaborate machines to further extend our cognitive capacities (see, for instance, the proof of the Four Color Theorem), and this will continue apace. In the future, perhaps our smart machines will create still smarter machines, and so on. So while the individual human brain may seem like a puny computational device relative to the problems that face us, it has a wonderful ability that mitigates this concern - the ability to bootstrap to greater and greater cognitive capacity by exploiting external resources. (You actually talk about using computers to get past certain of our limitations, but you seem to be saying that we can only design said computers if our brains are unbounded. Why?) So your claim that materialism should lead to fairly extreme skepticism (such as the belief that we will soon encounter a problem beyond our abilities) is a bit overblown. However I do agree that the materialist should advocate a certain fallibilism about science. While we have been able to construct extremely successful scientific theories, we should not assume that we are set up to be able to know everything there is to know about the Universe. Certain truths may just be inaccessible to us, either because the relevant evidence is invisible, for whatever reason, or because our cognitive capacities, however augmented, are insufficient to make the appropriate inferences from the available evidence. The question is, so what? You seem to be suggesting that this is somehow devastating to the scientific enterprise, but I'm not sure I see why. I think scientists should be aware that the facts in a certain domain may remain inaccessible, but that should not prevent them from trying ever more ingenious techniques to access them. Your essay does not make it at all clear how adopting the non-materialist belief that the brain is unbounded would actually help science, especially if (as I and other materialists suspect) that belief is just false. One does not need the assumption of unbounded critical thinking (I'm not even sure what that means) to explain the past success of science. Perhaps there is a certain sort of naive realism about science that does require this assumption (although I doubt it), but that is not the only way to understand and appreciate science. My personal stance is in line with the pragmatists or, more recently, Putnam's internal realism. But that is a topic for another discussion.Sotto Voce
April 26, 2009
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I was going to respond to Diffaxial's post at #2, but I see that Diffaxial's later post #7 and the two posts by nullasallus (#5 and #8) pretty much cover what I wanted to say, and more. Incidentally, I'm not at all sure that a bootstrap hypothesis can explain how language and a theory of mind arose in tandem. Having a theory of mind sounds like an on-off property to me. (As for what it means to have a language, I'm not going to wade into that controversy, except to say that there are no primitive languages in the world today.) I would certainly echo Diffaxial's call for more research: I'd like to know whether the Neanderthals and Homo erectus had a theory of mind, for instance. Glenn Morton mounts a strong case in his articles on Anthropology for advanced awareness in Homo erectus; while Hugh Ross of Reasons to Believe holds a diametrically opposed view. Professor David Wilcox in his article, Establishing Adam: Recent Evidences for a Late-Date Adam, takes a similar view. As I'm not a scientist, I'll let readers judge for themselves.vjtorley
April 26, 2009
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mauka I think your comments deserve special attention, and I would like to thank you for posting them again, on this thread. I would like to make a few of points of clarification before I devise a tally of my own. First, you will notice that I wrote about not just reasoning, but critical reasoning, in my original post. That distinction is important. The fact that a computer can be programmed to do Aristotelian logic, or for that matter first-order predicate calculus, does not impress me in the least. For the computer, as you rightly point out, is performing a mechanical operation. Moreover, its behavior is programmed. There is a procedure it follows to get the right answer. You don't need an immaterial mind for that. However, critical thinking, as I wrote above, "cannot be identified with a single process or set of processes; rather, it requires one to take a step back from one’s accustomed ways of thinking and re-evaluate them." You might need an immaterial mind for that. The second point that needs to be borne in mind is that I readily acknowledge that critical thinking is dependent for its existence on the interactions between the physical parts of an organism, even though I do not think it can be identified with any of these interactions, either singly or in combination. However, the dependence of critical thinking upon brain processes is <extrinsic rather than intrinsic, to use a distinction made by Professor David Oderberg in his essay, Hylemorphic Dualism: that is, the scope of critical thinking is not subject to any built-in material limitation, even though a material impediment (e.g. blindness, or poor neural processing capacity) may limit the kind of information which is available to me to think critically about, and even the way in which it is presented to me. The third point that needs to be made is that my account of critical thinking is a non-modal hypothesis: I do not attempt to explain how we think. Mauka, you might see that as a weakness; I see it as a strength. For my contention is that if there were a "how" of critical thinking, the mechanism involved would limit the scope of critical thinking and thereby reduce its usefulness for formulating and evaluating scientific hypotheses. My final point is that there is no mind-body gap in my account. I am not a Cartesian dualist; I do not believe that my mind pushes my brain around. Rather, what I believe is that although thinking itself is not a material process, it inevitably involves manipulation of information stored in the brain. As I envisage it, brain processes obey the constraints of physics (e.g. the law of conbservation of energy) but are not deterministic: the output is not predictable from the input. Thus critical thinking does not supervene upon brain processes, even if might be described as emergent from these processes (in the weak and non-controversial sense that critical thought depends on the occurrence of these processes, but that the property of being able to think critically is not the same property as the property of having these neural processes). OK. Now let's have a look at Mauka's tally. Here goes. 1a. Materialists haven't explained how critical thinking can arise from a physical brain. 1b. Nonmaterialists haven't explained how critical thinking can arise from an nonmaterial entity. Result: Tie 2a. We know that the brain exists, and we know that messing with the brain can affect critical thinking or make it disappear altogether. 2b. Even if human critical thought is an immaterial activity, it is still dependent on material processes, from which it obtains information about the world. If our built-in information processor and information storage device (our brain) is impaired, obviously we should not expect to be able to reason soundly, let alone critique our own reasoning: both our information about the outside world and the image schemata we use to represent that information are liable to be at fault. Result: Tie 3a. We don't know that material entities can think critically. 3b. We don’t know that immaterial entities can reason. Result: Tie 4a. Natural selection gives the materialist a plausible basis for the reliability of brain-based critical thinking heuristics, but only over a very limited scope (practical matters which principally relate to how much trust we should place what in other people say, and how we can fashion tools to manipulate objects around us). Two examples: (1) don't believe reports of strange occurrences witnessed only by drunkards; (2) when you construct a new building, wait five minutes, and if it doesn't fall over, it's probably safe to go inside. The scope of these critical thinking heuristics is far narrower than the universal scope required to formulate good scientific hypotheses about any and every cosmic phenomenon (from black holes to multiverses to computational processes), and critically evaluate scientific hypotheses pertaining to these phenomena, let alone advance towards the right hypotheses (which may forever elude our monkey brains). Another factor severly limiting our ability to think critically about anything is the anatomy (as opposed to the history) of our brain. For if critical thinking is a particular kind of material process, there is no reason to expect it to hold valid for all physical phenomena. Why should our brains be able to think straight about anything and everything in the world? And if they can't, then why are we doing science? Incidentally, to suggest that Baconian experimentation (confirming your hypothesis) or Popperian falsification of an hypothesis will do the job of critical evaluation is to miss the point: first, we have to think of what a good test of an hypothesis would be, and in precisely that respect, a kludge brain is liable to go astray. 4b. Nonmaterialists explicitly assume at the outset that critical reason is reliable and unrestricted in scope. <If they are right (and that's a big unexplained if), then the human mind is able to do good science. The only thing which limits our ability to formulate good hypotheses is that the appropriate schema may be one which we have not yet encountered in our experience (in which case, we would be well-advised to use our scientific instruments to broaden the range of material phenomena to which we have been exposed); however, we should be able to critically evaluate any hypothesis, relating to any state of affairs in the material world. Advantage: Nonmaterialist 5a. For the materialist, it is trivial to explain how the physical world can affect the mind through our senses. After all, the world, our sense organs, our nerves and our minds are all physical, so the interactions between them are just normal physical interactions. 5b. The nonmaterialist can also explain how the outside can affect the immaterial mind. Human thought - critical or otherwise - cannot take place without information, which we obtain from the outside world. If outside signals are cut off or distorted, our built-in information processor (the brain) malfunctions, then of course we will be unable to think properly. Result: Tie 6a. Moving in the other direction, it is trivial for the materialist to explain how the mind can affect the body and through it, the world. Mind, nerve, muscle and world are all physical, so their interactions are all physical. 6b. The nonmaterialist can explain how the mind can affect the world, on the assumption that brain processes are non-deterministic and that we can attend to our own bodily feedback. When I will my arm to move, my mind does not push neurons in my brain; rather, my limbs are actually making continual micro-movements all day long, caused by involuntary impulses of which I am aware at a subliminal level, through long years of practice in attending to them, ever since I was a baby. When I detect a micro-movement which coincides with what I consciously want, I focus on that and mentally "select" it; the embodied act of focusing my attention on it thereby magnifies the strength of the neural signal and thus my arm goes up. Advantage: Materialist (simpler explanation) 7a. Looking at the spectrum of human abilities and flaws, we find that the mind has the sort of characteristics you would expect it to have if it were the product of a long and kludgy evolutionary process. 7b. The nonmaterialist can explain the flaws in critical thinking as being due to the anatomical limitations of the brain as an information processing and storage device, or due to temporary or permanent impairments in a particular individual. Additional flaws in critical thought may arise when an inexperienced individual uses the wrong schema to picture a situation. Result: Tie Overall, the two hypotheses are tied on Mauka's criteria. (Which prompts me to ask Mauka: why did you pick these seven in particular, and what makes you think this is thw best way of deciding the issue? To discuss that question, you and I will have to engage in critical thinking about our own thinking processes - and our kludge brains might not be equipped for that!) Some points I might have added: 8. While philsophers such as David Beisecker have managed to develop a very plausible account of the intentionality of other animals' mental acts, the account they put forward (which draws heavily on the notions of "success" and "failure") is still inadequate to explain the intentionality of most human thought, as our concern is generally with the much broader notions of truth and falsehood. 9. If materialism is correct, then there's a genuine puzzle as to why the sentence "I believe it will rain on Friday" makes perfect sense, but "My brain [or even my body] believes it will rain on Friday" does not. (Intensionality-related arguments - as opposed to intentionality.) 10. Although material devices (brains or computers) can store information, it is implausible to say that they can store concepts, as: (i) concepts are indefinitely fine-grained - for instance, "triangle" and "trilateral" denote the same thing, but are quite different concepts; and (ii) there seems to be no intrinsic limit to how many concepts we can have, but there is an intrinsic limit to the storage capacity of my brain. 11. Our minds seem to be capable of engaging in gymnastic feats that we would not expect a material entity to be capable of - fantastic levels of abstraction. I can not only think about objects in the world, but also about thinking itself; and I can think about your act of thinking about my act of thinking about what you are thinking of now, or I can go even higher - as high as I like, if you wish, so that we can speak of 999-th order thoughts, and so on (not that I've ever had one!) I can also think about such oddities as time travel, the possibility that I might be a brain in a vat, and also transfinite and imaginary numbers. But more to the point, Mauka: I think the weakness of materialism in your part 4 above is critical: it entails that science is an unreliable enterprise. To be fair, I think the nonmaterialist account of how the mind initiates bodily movements is pretty vague at the moment, but I don't regard this as a big problem, as I'm not a Cartesian dualist. Another area that nonmaterialists need to work on are pitfalls in human thinking that we all make on an everyday basis, or flaws in reasoning that even educated people find it very hard to spot (think of the Monty Hall problem). Why, on a nonmaterialist account, do we repeatedly make these flaws? I think we need to flesh out our answer there. I submit that if nonmaterialists can come up with a better strategy (say, a cognitivist strategy) for getting people to avoid these reasoning traps than materialists (who might suggest putting people in surroundings where that logical pitfall is less likely to occur), then that'll be a scientific feather in the caps of the nonmaterialists. Likewise, if (as I believe Dr. Mario Beauregard and Denyse O'Leary argue in The Spiritual Brain) nonmaterialists can come up with better ways of helping people recover from brain injuries than the strategies that a materialist paradigm of thought would suggest, then that's another point in favor of a non-materialist paradigm.vjtorley
April 26, 2009
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Diffaxial, Even Povinelli and his colleagues see many similarities between human and chimpanzee cognition. Seeing similarities is easy and nothing new. Aquinas and Aristotle saw similarities - they also saw differences. Stark ones, and it seems that even Tomasello would be able to agree with that much despite qualifications. The essential point here is that, beyond language, theory of mind, and culture, all of which clearly have evolutionary roots that predate humanity at least in part, no categorically different causal level need be invoked to account for the emergence of the first humans, contra Vjtorley’s post. Those things are only the beginning of what VJtorley picked up - critical thought/reason and otherwise (and possibly more things, overlooked) are also important. Putting aside what it means for these things to have 'roots' that 'clearly predate humanity at least in part' -- I'd also strongly disagree that what VJtorley is talking about a question that can purely be settled by science, or even the presuppositions of science. Another important part of the post seems to be that there are spheres of metaphysics, and spheres of science, and we shouldn't confuse the two.nullasalus
April 26, 2009
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If nothing else, it helps illustrate the reasons for differing views in the field.
That is a quite fair summary of these very difficult issues. Even Povinelli and his colleagues see many similarities between human and chimpanzee cognition. They observe that, even in the absence of human-like theory of mind, chimpanzees nevertheless share with human beings many sophisticated behavioral resources, such as sensitivity to gaze, the ability to detect statistical regularities in the behavior of others, and strong operant learning abilities - all likely present in our most recent common ancestor, as well. Hence, although they may lack "theories" of others’ mental states, as such (too cognitive for Povinelli), their social behavior often comes to resemble that of human beings nonetheless. A strong case can be made that language is required for the sophisticated representations that add up to human theory of mind - but we also have the paradox that language itself is premised upon theory of mind. A very interesting synergy between these two phenomena was probably evident across hominid evolution, bootstrapping much of what is qualitatively unique about human cognition, particularly social cognition. And the cognitive, behavioral and learning resources that chimps do share with human beings very likely provided the social interactive platform upon from which this synergy could have been launched, and against the background of which it would have been so powerfully adaptive. The essential point here is that, beyond language, theory of mind, and culture, all of which clearly have evolutionary roots that predate humanity at least in part, no categorically different causal level need be invoked to account for the emergence of the first humans, contra Vjtorley's post. Of course, these things are very difficult to decide, because so remote in time and because behavior leaves few fossils. Nevertheless, anyone interested in these questions should take note of the strenuous experimental/empirical efforts that have been made to answer these questions. THAT is how science is done.Diffaxial
April 26, 2009
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I am very interested in responding to vjtorley's thoughtful post, to the extent that I've printed it out so I can organize my response better, although this may be tomorrow. However I'm wondering why two posts by mauka have disappeared? Mauka had written,
2 mauka 04/26/2009 6:36 pm Interested readers may want to peruse the original thread to see the discussion that led up to vjtorley's comment.
This seems like an entirely reasonable comment. Also he had written at 4,
You have it backwards. Materialists believe that the mental supervenes on the physical, so that a difference in mental states is always accompanied by a difference in physical states.
I’m not sure whether mauka is right about this, but it does bring up a point I want to think about, and I have no idea why it was deleted. Even though I don’t agree with everything mauka has to say (not being inclined to strict materialism), I think his posts are relevant and thought provoking. I hope he has not become persona non grata for some reason.hazel
April 26, 2009
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Diffaxial, In fairness to vjtorley, he made it clear that the results were not a slam dunk or indisputable, that there is considerable difficulty in specifying the boundary, and that even Nissani's conclusions are tentative. And, just a quick yank from the ol' unreliable wikipedia has this response: There has been some controversy over the interpretation of evidence purporting to show theory of mind ability—or inability—in animals. Two examples serve as demonstration: first, Povinelli et. al (1990)[60] presented chimpanzees with the choice of two experimenters from which to request food: one who had seen where food was hidden, and one who, by virtue of one of a variety of mechanisms (having a bucket or bag over his head; a blindfold over his eyes; or being turned away from the baiting) does not know, and can only guess. They found that the animals failed in most cases to differentially request food from the "knower." By contrast, Hare, Call, and Tomasello (2001)[61] found that subordinate chimpanzees were able to use the knowledge state of dominant rival chimpanzees to determine which container of hidden food they approached. Tomasello and like-minded colleagues who originally argued that great apes did not have theory of mind have since reversed their position. Povinelli and his colleagues, however, maintain that Tomasello's group has misinterpreted the results of their experiments. They point out that most evidence in support of great ape theory of mind involves naturalistic settings to which the apes may have already adapted through past learning. Their "reinterpretation hypothesis" explains away all current evidence supporting attribution of mental states to others in chimpanzees as merely evidence of risk-based learning; that is, the chimpanzees learn through experience that certain behaviors in other chimpanzees have a probability of leading to certain responses, without necessarily attributing knowledge or other intentional states to those other chimpanzees. They therefore propose testing theory of mind abilities in great apes in novel, and not naturalistic settings. Kristin Andrews takes the reinterpretation hypothesis one step further, arguing that it implies that even the well-known false-belief test used to test children's theory of mind is susceptible to being interpreted as a result of learning. If nothing else, it helps illustrate the reasons for differing views in the field.nullasalus
April 26, 2009
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mauka's list of 'advantages and disadvantages' is a joke. Even ignoring the butchering of the rationales and skewed presentation, it falls apart for one clear reason. There is no 'nonmaterialist' position. There are mechanistic-materialist monists, there are neutral-monists/panpsychists, there are idealists, and there are substance dualists of various stripes. And probably some others that have been left out (like whatever John Searle qualifies as.) You can go through each of mauka's questions and come up with radically different results and 'ties'/'advantages'/'disadvantages'. Let the idealists and panpsychists 'win' every matchup because they take mind as fundamental (and therefore in no need of reduction) while simultaneously being able to explain the appearance of all things material. Argue the dualists tie the materialists at every turn because, as dualists, they (under the Cartesian view) posit mechanistic materialism in addition to a distinct mental realm - so they can claim as 'theirs' anything the "materialist" can, but still account for the mind and consciousness. Mauka's list is a mess from start to finish.nullasalus
April 26, 2009
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