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Eric Holloway: Why engineering can’t be reduced to the laws of physics

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When we reduce the engineer’s mind to a computer, the source of innovation disappears:

The fundamental problem of modern science is the problem of innovation. Where does novelty come from? This problem shows up in physics, biology, artificial intelligence, and economics…

The source of this information puzzles the respective fields. The puzzle is due to the fact that, while each field can describe the target precisely, using its axioms, none of the fields can describe how the target came to be hit…

The one area where we do not encounter this mystery is engineering. In engineering, the cause of purposeful arrangements of parts is well known. This cause is engineering innovation. Engineers create the technical inventions that run our economy. However, once we get into the engineer’s mind, the mystery reemerges.

Eric Holloway, “Why engineering can’t be reduced to the laws of physics” at Mind Matters News

He argues that the problem how to account for innovation cannot be solved by anything built upon the laws of physics.

Comments
JVL,
But then why wouldn’t the surfaces and sharp edges have been eroded as well?
If you look at the photos, they are.
Where did they go then? Who took them and used them? Where? What did they build?
Stone was apparently removed from the formation because the stone debris around the base of the formation is small by comparison. Finding where the stone was transported to and that it necessarily came from the Yonaguni formation requires a whole new investigation. Determining who actually took the stone and when would be another challenge. Also note that many ancient stone quarries were located near bodies of water for easier transportation, which is also the case here before the sea level changed.
What do other, known quarries look like? Have you done a comparison?
Yes, there are other ancient quarries with steps and platforms. If you look for yourself, you will find some of these. You'll also find that ancient people developed different techniques for stone quarrying that varied with the type of stone they quarried.
Look, the geologist in the video was really sure the configuration was natural.
The geologist also said that he was uncertain whether the stone was reworked by humans.
Without strong, clear evidence to the contrary I’m happy to stick with that. If and when such evidence comes in I shall reconsider.
And you've just made my point again. A scientific mindset for advancing knowledge requires curiosity, creative hypotheses, and further investigation. In contrast, non-scientists are happy to stick with the status quo explanations unless an authority tells them to believe otherwise. -QQuerius
August 11, 2020
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Querius: Good points. Regarding the tool marks, when you look at the YouTube videos, you can easily see that the surfaces are heavily eroded, perhaps by the strong current there, and any tool marks would have been completely erased. But then why wouldn't the surfaces and sharp edges have been eroded as well? I do like the idea that it could once have been the result of quarrying since the sandstone bedding planes are flat and convenient. There are some above water sandstone formations that might also have been quarried. The island is tiny (29 sq km) with only a small population, so it’s likely that if quarrying took place, any sandstone blocks were removed from the island, which does seem to be the case. Where did they go then? Who took them and used them? Where? What did they build? If you search on Yonaguni images, there do seem to be some that look like they were being quarried including straight, deep lines cut into huge blocks at a 90 degree angle from the bedding planes. The triangular shapes and holes are also suspicious, but see for yourself. What do other, known quarries look like? Have you done a comparison? Look, the geologist in the video was really sure the configuration was natural. Without strong, clear evidence to the contrary I'm happy to stick with that. If and when such evidence comes in I shall reconsider.JVL
August 11, 2020
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ET: That doesn’t follow but seeing that we don’t know what it looked like when it wasn’t submerged we have no idea how much has been smoothed away Edges get worn down, more fragile veins in the rocks get worn away, bits splinter and fall off. People who study such things know how it goes. That's why I'll withhold final judgement until some experts have a good look.JVL
August 11, 2020
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Truthfreedom: How do you dare, JVL? Why on Earth are you assuming my ‘gender’? I was right, you are a bully and a moral monster. Oh, sorry. Just to be safe I'll assume you are a hermaphrodite. That way I can either be completely safe or completely offensive. #Cancel JVL. Hope you enjoy the gulag. I've heard you can meet some really good Russian authors there.JVL
August 11, 2020
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JVL @101, Good points. Regarding the tool marks, when you look at the YouTube videos, you can easily see that the surfaces are heavily eroded, perhaps by the strong current there, and any tool marks would have been completely erased. I do like the idea that it could once have been the result of quarrying since the sandstone bedding planes are flat and convenient. There are some above water sandstone formations that might also have been quarried. The island is tiny (29 sq km) with only a small population, so it's likely that if quarrying took place, any sandstone blocks were removed from the island, which does seem to be the case. If you search on Yonaguni images, there do seem to be some that look like they were being quarried including straight, deep lines cut into huge blocks at a 90 degree angle from the bedding planes. The triangular shapes and holes are also suspicious, but see for yourself. -QQuerius
August 11, 2020
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JVL:
But those same forces should have eroded the whole thing a lot then.
That doesn't follow but seeing that we don't know what it looked like when it wasn't submerged we have no idea how much has been smoothed awayET
August 11, 2020
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"You da man"!
How do you dare, JVL? Why on Earth are you assuming my 'gender'? I was right, you are a bully and a moral monster. #Cancel JVL. Hope you enjoy the gulag.Truthfreedom
August 11, 2020
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Truthfreedom: Drunkard Lives Matter #Drunkard Pride Parade The sober-archy oppresses drunkards. Solid bro. You da man!JVL
August 11, 2020
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Drunkard Lives Matter #Drunkard Pride Parade The sober-archy oppresses drunkards.Truthfreedom
August 11, 2020
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Truthfreedom: JVL, what a pathetic attempt at dodging my questions. I do apologise, I am multi-tasking at the moment. Normally I'm much better at avoiding queries. But do not worry, after 2-3 rounds of cultural marxist brainwashing, you will end up parroting the: ‘being a drunkard is something fantastic to be proud of’ meme. Hooray! Do I get a badge or anything? A free bottle of MD 20/20? Because thinking for yourself is hard. And the PC noose is too tight. I don't have a PC, I use a Mac.JVL
August 11, 2020
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JVL, what a pathetic attempt at dodging my questions. But do not worry, after 2-3 rounds of cultural marxist brainwashing, you will end up parroting the: 'being a drunkard is something fantastic to be proud of' meme. Because thinking for yourself is hard. And the PC noose is too tight.Truthfreedom
August 11, 2020
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Truthfreedom: JVL, do you believe in teaching children that being a drunkard is ‘another way of life’? That it is ‘natural’? That it is something ‘desirable’? When were you taught and by whom? Was it your parents?JVL
August 11, 2020
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JVL has ran out of arguments. Again. Materialism 0 Theism 1 JVL, do you believe in teaching children that being a drunkard is 'another way of life'? That it is 'natural'? That it is something 'desirable'?Truthfreedom
August 11, 2020
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ET: Given what we know of what salt water and ocean currents do, if there were any tool marks from cutting, they would have been rubbed clean by now. But those same forces should have eroded the whole thing a lot then. It needs a very good survey and some specialists. Until then . . . I'd have to consider it being man-made as a remote possibility. But, new data could change things obviously. It doesn't sound like anyone is terribly interested in studying the thing properly. Oh well.JVL
August 11, 2020
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Given what we know of what salt water and ocean currents do, if there were any tool marks from cutting, they would have been rubbed clean by now.ET
August 11, 2020
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ET: Umm, being underwater for thousands of years means the water could have easily erased all tool marks. Do you understand anything? Could have. But then why are the edges still so sharp? A specialist would know more. The site really needs a good survey and investigation done to see if there are any signs of work, tool marks, etc.JVL
August 11, 2020
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Umm, being underwater for thousands of years means the water could have easily erased all tool marks. Do you understand anything?ET
August 11, 2020
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ET: You have never been to the site and examine it. And the site is underwater. Nope, I haven't been there and I haven't seen evidence of tool marks or the stones being worked so I shall continue to assume the configuration is natural (as did the geologist in the film) until I get evidence to suggest otherwise. Good evidence. People do do underwater archaeology. It's quite a 'thing' now.JVL
August 11, 2020
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Truthfreedom: If you are not a moral relativist, what are you then? I'm a drunkard. Are you sure fishes ‘make fools of themselves’?. I mean. Seriously. Please elaborate. I'll ask one next time I see one.JVL
August 11, 2020
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JVL- You have never been to the site and examine it. And the site is underwater.ET
August 11, 2020
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@JVL -Saying 'Ehh, not really' does not an argument make. - How can 'physico-chemical robots' programmed by evolution 'find out (someday) who is right'? - If you are not a moral relativist, what are you then?
Do you enjoy trying to make fools of other people?
I enjoy telling people brainwashed by crazy atheists that materialism is an incoherent metaphysical position. A lot. I am programmed to that end. And to being a drunkard. -Are you sure fishes 'make fools of themselves'?. I mean. Seriously. Please elaborate.Truthfreedom
August 11, 2020
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Truthfreedom: JVL, drunkards lives matter. We are born this way, and since we are physico-chemical machines, we end logically drinking etanol. Because we are programmed to do it. And we can not escape our fate. Maybe so. It is astonishing to hear you say I was ‘making a fool of myself’. Do fishes make ‘fools of themselves’ when they swim? I'm sure some do. I've been trying to figure out what you've been trying to get at and I think I've got it sussed: If I agree that alcoholics are just born that way, like homosexuals say, then because I think there's nothing wrong with being homosexual then I have to admit that there's nothing wrong with alcoholism (excepting, of course, the damage it can do to others). AND then if I say something like: you just need to show some backbone, resist the temptations, wean yourself off, get some help then I HAVE to admit I believe in free will which makes me, in your eyes based on your guesses as to my beliefs, a first-class hypocrite. Something like that? Does that often work? Do you enjoy trying to make fools of other people? Do you score some points when you catch a materialist hypocrite in a contradiction? I'm not like you. I don't trawl around trying to find someone I disagree with I think I can catch out and then revel that I've got another one lying. I don't treat people that way. No. I believe everything has been created by God. He is the ultimate source of authority. Okay. Not a bunch of physico-chemical processes. Maybe someday we'll find out who is right. Your ‘reasoning’ was used by Nazi and Khmer Rouge supporters. ‘What is given to me by others’ + the laws. Ehhhhh, not really. And didn't Jesus reply to Pilate: that's what you say . . . meaning, it's you that's granting me that importance, not me.JVL
August 11, 2020
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Just like you, the only authority I have is what is given to me by others and the constitution/laws where I live.
No. I believe everything has been created by God. He is the ultimate source of authority. Not a bunch of physico-chemical processes. Your 'reasoning' was used by Nazi and Khmer Rouge supporters. 'What is given to me by others' + the laws.Truthfreedom
August 11, 2020
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JVL, drunkards lives matter. We are born this way, and since we are physico-chemical machines, we end logically drinking etanol. Because we are programmed to do it. And we can not escape our fate. You know: - plants make photosynthesis - fishes swim - drunkards drink It is astonishing to hear you say I was 'making a fool of myself'. Do fishes make 'fools of themselves' when they swim?Truthfreedom
August 11, 2020
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Truthfreedom: UD moderators/ owners know that you, moral subjectivists-relativists, are the BIGGEST HYPOCRITES on Earth. Who says I am? Are you just making an assumption do you suppose? They do not cave in to the PC fascist brigade. They are mocked day in and day out for not believing the most grievous leftist non-sense. Not by me personally. Perhaps you should treat people like individuals instead of labels for which you make assumptions. JVL: why do you hate people born with drunkard tendencies and that act on them? Why do you condemn drunkenness? Who gave you that authority? I don't hate people in general; it takes a lot of effort to hate so I try and keep it to a minimum and only people I know. I do not hate or condemn drunkards but I feel sorry for them when they make fools of themselves as you were doing. Just like you, the only authority I have is what is given to me by others and the constitution/laws where I live.JVL
August 11, 2020
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UD moderators/ owners know that you, moral subjectivists-relativists, are the BIGGEST HYPOCRITES on Earth. They do not cave in to the PC fascist brigade. They are mocked day in and day out for not believing the most grievous leftist non-sense. JVL: why do you hate people born with drunkard tendencies and that act on them? Why do you condemn drunkenness? Who gave you that authority?Truthfreedom
August 11, 2020
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Truthfreedom: Butt-loving has to be celebrated. Alcohol-loving has to be ridiculed. JVL the hypocrite SJW. You owe me an apology. You owe the other participants in this thread an apology for strewing the discussion with pointless and derogatory drivel. And you owe the owners of this forum an apology for bringing ridicule upon Uncommon Descent. Obviously you don't care about other people. And, sadly, the moderators of this thread and this site are happy to let you make a mockery of them. I happen to think that ID deserves a place for people to discuss all aspects of the endeavour in a collegiate and serious manner. You're just making it look like a seedy bar just before closing. And no one is stopping you. Lovely.JVL
August 11, 2020
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ET: If anything the Yonaguni Monument was a quarry site. That is certainly a possibility. I would still expect to see signs of the stone being worked and cut and some indication of how the cutting was done. I didn't see any evidence of any of that sort of thing which doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I just didn't see it. Querius: My question of why means: why would humans cut an existing stone outcropping in that way? What would the purpose be? And if they did cut it I would expect to see some signs of that work as mentioned above. The other consideration of the site being a quarry is: where did the quarried bits go? Are there structures in the area that are made up of that kind of sandstone? No one seems to have thought about that. If it wasn't a quarry then I would expect to see some broken bits in the area that have sheered off the main outcropping. What other information do we have about the cultures that have inhabited that island? What kind of other structures did they construct? If you look at other constructed sites (like Machu Picchu) it's possible to see where stones were cut to fit them together. There are even some good guesses as to how the cutting was accomplished. The site we're discussing has nothing like that. I would say that, in fact, one guy thinking it was man-made has NOT brought about a huge amount of research. It's interested a few anomaly hunters and some geologists who pretty quickly decided it was not man-made. Interesting but nothing even that noteworthy as the geologist pointed out in the video.JVL
August 11, 2020
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JVL is a bully. He owes me and the drunkard-community an apology. He is a moralizing preacher and he shows no respect for people's identities. #JVL: apologize or get banned.Truthfreedom
August 11, 2020
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JVL,
Querius: As you saw in the video, any tooling marks were obviously obliterated by the extremely poor condition of the flat surfaces and the team geologist could not rule out human modifications. Or, they might not ever have been there.
Yes, exactly.
But, thank you! You’re actually helping me make my point! I deliberately chose the Yonaguni Monument precisely because it’s somewhat likely to be a natural geological formation with some pretty puzzling features. Again, I’m still not decided on whether humans modified the sandstone to give it 90 degree edges, straight lines, and consistent angular directions. Perhaps. But why?
I don’t understand your comment. Perhaps what? “But why?” what?
Hang on. Aside from the fact that there really is no evidence the site was even modified by humans without very clear evidence of design the assumption should be undesigned. Now if you can provide very clear and unambiguous evidence of design at that site then I will reconsider my opinion.
There’s no compelling evidence either that humans modified the site or that the site is completely unmodified geology. The presence of 90-degree edges, straight lines, flat surfaces, and angled faces are rarely or never observed in geological sandstone formations and quite reasonably attract interest for that reason.
Unfortunately, the sensationalist press prefers to publish it either as an “alien craft” or as a (yawn) completely debunked and boring geological formation. Neither of these extremes are scientific. It depends on the evidence. I don’t think geography is boring at all.
That’s not what I meant when I mentioned geology (i.e. not geography). I meant that sensationalist media find geology generally boring and rarely publish developments in geology unless they can promote something sensational about it. Research into this very unusual geological formation is stimulated by the presumption of human design while the presumption of ordinary random processes tends to suppress research. -QQuerius
August 10, 2020
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