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Evolution driven by laws? Not random mutations?

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So claims a recent book, Arrival of the Fittest, by Andreas Wagner, professor of evolutionary biology at U Zurich in Switzerland (also associated with the Santa Fe Institute). He lectures worldwide and is a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Sciences.

From the book announcement:

Can random mutations over a mere 3.8 billion years solely be responsible for wings, eyeballs, knees, camouflage, lactose digestion, photosynthesis, and the rest of nature’s creative marvels? And if the answer is no, what is the mechanism that explains evolution’s speed and efficiency?

In Arrival of the Fittest, renowned evolutionary biologist Andreas Wagner draws on over fifteen years of research to present the missing piece in Darwin’s theory. Using experimental and computational technologies that were heretofore unimagined, he has found that adaptations are not just driven by chance, but by a set of laws that allow nature to discover new molecules and mechanisms in a fraction of the time that random variation would take.

From a review (which is careful to note that it is not a religious argument):

The question “how does nature innovate?” often elicits a succinct but unsatisfying response – random mutations. Andreas Wagner first illustrates why random mutations alone cannot be the cause of innovations – the search space for innovations, be it at the level of genes, protein, or metabolic reactions is too large that makes the probability of stumbling upon all the innovations needed to make a little fly (let alone humans) too low to have occurred within the time span the universe has been around.

He then shows some of the fundamental hidden principles that can actually make innovations possible for natural selection to then select and preserve those innovations.

Like interacting parallel worlds, this would be momentous news if it is true. But someone is going to have to read the book and assess the strength of the laws advanced.

One thing for sure, if an establishment figure can safely write this kind of thing, Darwin’s theory is coming under more serious fire than ever. But we knew, of course, when Nature published an article on the growing dissent within the ranks about Darwinism.

In origin of life research, there has long been a law vs. chance controversy. For example, Does nature just “naturally” produce life? vs. Maybe if we throw enough models at the origin of life… some of them will stick?

Note: You may have to apprise your old schoolmarm that Darwin’s theory* is “natural selection acting on random mutations,” not “evolution” in general. It is the only theory that claims sheer randomness can lead to creativity, in conflict with information theory. See also: Being as Communion.

*(or neo-Darwinism, or whatever you call what the Darwin-in-the-schools lobby is promoting or Evolution Sunday is celebrating).*

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Comments
Ah, bless Joe: "Yes, YOU are. The comments are closed because YOU refuse to deal with the thorough refutations of your trope. And there isn’t anything left to discuss." When Iraqi need a new information minister, throw your hat in the ring.Rich
November 3, 2014
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Enkidu:
It must be nice to have the confidence millions of working scientists are wrong and you are right.
What a bluffing choke that was. What are those alleged millions of working scientists right about, Enkidu? Do they have a model of unguided evolution producing something?Joe
November 3, 2014
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Reformat-- keiths:
When readers see “Comments are closed” at the end of your screeds, they know you are fearful of criticism and open discussion.
Yes, YOU are. The comments are closed because YOU refuse to deal with the thorough refutations of your trope. And there isn't anything left to discuss.Joe
November 3, 2014
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astroman:
Why are you ID proponents so afraid to answer questions and actually demonstrate your allegedly accurate and reliable methods?
We have. OTOH your position doesn't have anything to compare them to.
Why are you ID proponents so afraid of naming a variety of designed vs. non-designed things in nature and demonstrating how you can scientifically determine the difference?
We have. Do you think that all deaths are murders or do you think we can tell the difference? Are all fires arson or can we tell the difference? Are all rocks artifacts or can we tell the difference? And AGAIN, if the materialistic position had answers or a methodology, this discussion would either not be taking place or it would be very different.Joe
November 3, 2014
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keith s:
When readers see “Comments are closed” at the end of your screeds, they know you are fearful of criticism and open discussion. Yes, YOU are. The comments are closed because YOU refuse to deal with the thorough refutations of your trope. And there isn't anything left to discuss.
Joe
November 3, 2014
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KF, A word of advice. When readers see "Comments are closed" at the end of your screeds, they know you are fearful of criticism and open discussion. If you have no confidence in your ideas, why should anyone else?keith s
November 3, 2014
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Let me post this here again. Linking to posts with comments turned off is cowardly. It suggests wanting to keep a "clean copy" without any discussion, so they it can continually be referred to it as if it is beyond criticisms. Shameful. Censorship, you're either for it or you ain't.Rich
November 3, 2014
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Have any of my posts been deleted from this thread?Rich
November 3, 2014
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gpuccio, serious questions: What do you hope to accomplish by endlessly repeating your ID claims on one or a few obscure blogs? Why are you so afraid to submit your claims to Bio-Complexity, and to reputable scientific journals? What have you got to lose by trying? Why are you ID proponents so afraid to answer questions and actually demonstrate your allegedly accurate and reliable methods? Why are you ID proponents so afraid of naming a variety of designed vs. non-designed things in nature and demonstrating how you can scientifically determine the difference? Why are you ID proponents so dishonest about your religious and political motives and agenda? Millions of hard working people are out there doing science and adding to useful knowledge everyday while you and the other ID proponents are bashing science and scientists, and pushing your religious and political Wedge agenda. What are any of you contributing to the world in a positive way?Astroman
November 3, 2014
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k said: "F/N Self-serving advertisement of another of my cowardly Comments Off screeds: I have responded on record blathered on and on for the millionth time in my usual nauseating way regarding Islands of function, FSCO/I and related issues my pseudo-scientific nonsense, as well as abusive comments further demonstrating my complete lack of integrity by drumbeat repeating my abusive, sanctimonious, slanderous, false accusations toward anyone, and some opponents in particular, who oppose my self-righteous commandments here. KF" FIFY P.S. k, get over yourself, and grow a pair.Astroman
November 3, 2014
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gpuccio I am not upset at all. I just point to your blatant errors. It must be nice to have the confidence millions of working scientists are wrong and you are right. Especially when the courage to have your ideas vetted by those scientists seems nonexistent.Enkidu
November 3, 2014
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Keith, Astroman, Enkidu: Thank you for you kind interest in my scientific career, possible contributions to ID, and personal motivations. It's beautiful that so many friends care for me. But don't worry too much. I am very happy as I am, doing the things that I do. You seem to believe that my brilliant perspectives are limited by fear. I respect your opinion. After all, not all people can be heroes like you.gpuccio
November 3, 2014
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Enkidu: I am not upset at all. I just point to your blatant errors.gpuccio
November 3, 2014
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Astroman: We don't know who the biological designer(s) is.gpuccio
November 3, 2014
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Astroman, relying on imagination, and denial of reality, is the stock and trade of neo-Darwinian science. EVOLUTIONARY JUST-SO STORIES Excerpt: ,,,The term “just-so story” was popularized by Rudyard Kipling’s 1902 book by that title which contained fictional stories for children. Kipling says the camel got his hump as a punishment for refusing to work, the leopard’s spots were painted on him by an Ethiopian, and the kangaroo got its powerful hind legs after being chased all day by a dingo. Kipling’s just-so stories are as scientific as the Darwinian accounts of how the amoeba became a man. Lacking real scientific evidence for their theory, evolutionists have used the just-so story to great effect. Backed by impressive scientific credentials, the Darwinian just-so story has the aura of respectability. Biologist Michael Behe observes: “Some evolutionary biologists--like Richard Dawkins--have fertile imaginations. Given a starting point, they almost always can spin a story to get to any biological structure you wish” (Darwin’s Black Box).,,, http://www.wayoflife.org/database/evolutionary_just_so_stories.html "Grand Darwinian claims rest on undisciplined imagination" Dr. Michael Behe - 29:24 mark of following video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=s6XAXjiyRfM#t=1762s a prime example of undisciplined imagination instead of empirical science, is the bacterial flagellum: Calling Nick Matzke's literature bluff on molecular machines - DonaldM UD blogger - April 2013 Excerpt: So now, 10 years later in 2006 Matzke and Pallen come along with this review article. The interesting thing about this article is that, despite all the hand waving claims about all these dozens if not hundreds of peer reviewed research studies showing how evolution built a flagellum, Matzke and Pallen didn’t have a single such reference in their bibliography. Nor did they reference any such study in the article. Rather, the article went into great lengths to explain how a researcher might go about conducting a study to show how evolution could have produced the system. Well, if all those articles and studies were already there, why not just point them all out? In shorty, the entire article was a tacit admission that Behe had been right all along. Fast forward to now and Andre’s question directed to Matzke. We’re now some 17 years after Behe’s book came out where he made that famous claim. And, no surprise, there still is not a single peer reviewed research study that provides the Darwinian explanation for a bacterial flagellum (or any of the other irreducibly complex biological systems Behe mentioned in the book). We’re almost 7 years after the Matzke & Pallen article. So where are all these research studies? There’s been ample time for someone to do something in this regard. Matzke will not answer the question because there is no answer he can give…no peer reviewed research study he can reference, other than the usual literature bluffing he’s done in the past. https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/andre-asks-an-excellent-question-regarding-dna-as-a-part-of-an-in-cell-irreducibly-complex-communication-system/#comment-453291 More Irreducible Complexity Is Found in Flagellar Assembly - September 24, 2013 Concluding Statement: Eleven years is a lot of time to refute the claims about flagellar assembly made in Unlocking the Mystery of Life, if they were vulnerable to falsification. Instead, higher resolution studies confirm them. Not only that, research into the precision assembly of flagella is provoking more investigation of the assembly of other molecular machines. It's a measure of the robustness of a scientific theory when increasing data strengthen its tenets over time and motivate further research. Irreducible complexity lives! - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/more_irreducibl077051.htmlbornagain77
November 3, 2014
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Box, I think both problems are equally problematic for unguided evolution. And that is before we even stop to consider the necessity of all of evolutions changes to an organism to occur sequentially. How can an optic nerve only form AFTER we have a fluid filled focusing mechanism, and not before. The whole thing is a mess, and that is why no one makes any attempt to quantize or create a dialog of how it could happen. No one attempts to say how it could happen in detail.phoodoo
November 3, 2014
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F/N: I have responded on record regarding Islands of function, FSCO/I and related issues as well as abusive comments here. KFkairosfocus
November 3, 2014
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Phoodoo,
Phoodoo #325: There is no way, if life was nothing but an arms race, that it would always stay so balanced to allow so much diversity. Eventually one side would win the whole prize.
You argue that the balance between the diverse life forms cannot be explained / maintained by unguided evolution. In post #286, I argue that the balance in an organism cannot be maintained by unguided evolution.
If one supposes that an organism is just a collection of chemical processes, one must assume a delicate balance between those chemical processes. The introduction of a novel protein – without a fitting regulatory system already in place – can only be detrimental to an organism.
We are both making holistic arguments. We are just pointing towards different 'wholes'. Your argument is wrt life as a whole, my argument is wrt the organism as a whole.Box
November 3, 2014
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bornagain, Those are some great points. To me that has always been one of the biggest evidences that made me realize evolution couldn't possibly be correct. If we are talking about an unguided process, that simply weights itself towards the organism that finds the best way to copy itself successfully, then quite obviously how could a mammal every compete with a rapidly multiplying bacteria, or for that matter, an all consuming toxic sludge that keeps doubling in size and consumes any carbon it covers. There is no way, if life was nothing but an arms race, that it would always stay so balanced to allow so much diversity. Eventually one side would win the whole prize.phoodoo
November 3, 2014
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astroman:
Your denial of reality, and lack of self-awareness are a sight blight to behold.
Exactly what we say of you. Thanks.Joe
November 3, 2014
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OK so still no theory of evolution nor any research towards the blind watchmaker thesis. Got itJoe
November 3, 2014
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bornagain77 said: "Moreover, Behe has been vindicated in spades,,, Care to refute his work with actual evidence or are you content to sling mud and call it a day?" Your denial of reality, and lack of self-awareness are a sight blight to behold.Astroman
November 2, 2014
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bornagain77, to say that your projection is extreme would be putting it mildly. And something you really should keep in mind when you say things like "Ad hominem does not empirical refutation make!" is the massive amount of ad hominems that have been and/or are spewed by you, kairosfocus, Joe, Dembski (remember the fart video?), phoodoo, and virtually all other ID-Creation proponents.Astroman
November 2, 2014
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phoodoo, to say that your projection is extreme would be putting it mildly.Astroman
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Sometimes materialists, instead of conceding the fact that pathogens do not present any evidence for 'vertical' Darwinian evolution, will complain that a 'loving' God would not make pathogens. Yet there is very good reason to believe that pathogens were originally created 'non-pathogenic' and became pathogenic through 'downhill' evolutionary processes: Setting a Molecular Clock for Malaria Parasites - July 8, 2010 Excerpt: The ancestors of humans acquired the parasite 2.5 million years ago. "Malaria parasites undoubtedly were relatively benign for most of that history (in humans), becoming a major disease only after the origins of agriculture and dense human populations," said Ricklefs. http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=117259 "the AIDS virus originated relatively recently, as a mutation from SIV, the simian immuno-deficiency virus. According to Wikipedia, this virus was also benign in its original form:.. Unlike HIV-1 and HIV-2 infections in humans, SIV infections in their natural hosts appear in many cases to be non-pathogenic. Extensive studies in sooty mangabeys have established that SIVsmm infection does not cause any disease in these animals, despite high levels of circulating virus." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/macroevolution-microevolution-and-chemistry-the-devil-is-in-the-details/#comment-448372 Forcing bacteria to 'evolve' turns helpful bacteria into pathogenic bacteria: From friend to foe: How benign bacteria evolve to virulent pathogens, December 12, 2013 Excerpt: "Bacteria can evolve rapidly to adapt to environmental change. When the "environment" is the immune response of an infected host, this evolution can turn harmless bacteria into life-threatening pathogens. ...It is thought that many strains of E. coli that cause disease in humans evolved from commensal strains." http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-12-friend-foe-benign-bacteria-evolve.html Genetic study shows that bubonic plague (Black Death) was caused by loss of genes and streamlining (genetic entropy) of a non-pathogenic bacteria: The independent evolution of harmful organisms from one bacterial family - April 21, 2014 Excerpt: "Before this study, there was uncertainty about what path these species took to become pathogenic: had they split from a shared common pathogenic ancestor? Or had they evolved independently" says Professor Nicholas Thomson, senior author from the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute. "What we found were signatures in their genomes which plot the evolutionary path they took. For the first time, researchers have studied the Black Death bacterium's entire family tree to fully understand how some of the family members evolve to become harmful.,,, The Yersinia family of bacteria has many sub species, some of which are harmful and others not. Two of the most feared members of this bacterial family are Yersinia pestis, the bacterium responsible for the bubonic plague or the Black Death, and Yersinia enterocolitica, a major cause of gastroenteritis. Previous studies of this family of bacteria have focused on the harmful or pathogenic species, fragmenting our full understanding of the evolution of these species.... "Surprisingly they emerged as human pathogens independently from a background of non-pathogenic close relatives. These genetic signatures mark foothold moments of the emergence of these infamous disease-causing bacteria." The team found that it was not only the acquisition of genes that has proven important to this family of bacteria, but also the loss of genes and the streamlining of metabolic pathways seems to be an important trait for the pathogenic species. By examining the whole genomes of both the pathogenic and non-pathogenic species, they were able to determine that many of the metabolic functions, lost by the pathogenic species, were ancestral. These functions were probably important for growth in a range of niches, and have been lost rather than gained in specific family lines in the Yersinia family. "We commonly think bacteria must gain genes to allow them to become pathogens. However, we now know that the loss of genes and the streamlining of the pathogen's metabolic capabilities are key features in the evolution of these disease-causing bacteria," http://phys.org/news/2014-04-plague-family-independent-evolution-bacterial.html We are living in a bacterial world, and it's impacting us more than previously thought - February 15, 2013 Excerpt: We often associate bacteria with disease-causing "germs" or pathogens, and bacteria are responsible for many diseases, such as tuberculosis, bubonic plague, and MRSA infections. But bacteria do many good things, too, and the recent research underlines the fact that animal life would not be the same without them.,,, I am,, convinced that the number of beneficial microbes, even very necessary microbes, is much, much greater than the number of pathogens." http://phys.org/news/2013-02-bacterial-world-impacting-previously-thought.html#ajTabs if evolution were actually the truth about how all life came to be on Earth then the only 'life' that would be around would be extremely small organisms with the highest replication rate, and with the most mutational firepower, since only they would be the fittest to survive in the dog eat dog world where blind pitiless evolution rules and only the 'fittest' are allowed to survive. The logic of this is nicely summed up here: Richard Dawkins interview with a 'Darwinian' physician goes off track - video Excerpt: "I am amazed, Richard, that what we call metazoans, multi-celled organisms, have actually been able to evolve, and the reason [for amazement] is that bacteria and viruses replicate so quickly -- a few hours sometimes, they can reproduce themselves -- that they can evolve very, very quickly. And we're stuck with twenty years at least between generations. How is it that we resist infection when they can evolve so quickly to find ways around our defenses?" http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/video_to_dawkin062031.html i.e. Since successful reproduction is all that really matters on a neo-Darwinian view of things, how can anything but successful reproduction be realistically 'selected' for? Any other function besides reproduction, such as sight, hearing, thinking, etc.., would be highly superfluous to the primary criteria of successfully reproducing, and should, on a Darwinian view, be discarded as so much excess baggage since it would, sooner or later, slow down successful reproduction. But that is not what we find. Time after time We find organisms cooperating with each other in ways that have knothing to with their individual ‘fitness to reproduce’: NIH Human Microbiome Project defines normal bacterial makeup of the body – June 13, 2012 Excerpt: Microbes inhabit just about every part of the human body, living on the skin, in the gut, and up the nose. Sometimes they cause sickness, but most of the time, microorganisms live in harmony with their human hosts, providing vital functions essential for human survival. http://www.nih.gov/news/health/jun2012/nhgri-13.htmbornagain77
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Enkidu, Is that more preposterous than believing that conscious, incredibly precise, incredibly irreducibly complex beings arose from accidental swirls of bad replicating mud? Mud for which you don't even have an explanation of where it came from, in a universe full of constant laws that you also don't know where it came from? I guess I have a little less suspension of disbelief than you do. Do you know what the purpose of the world is? Do you know what tools a creator would or wouldn't have to work with? Do you believe that the world should be only good, without the possibility of anything bad? How do you know that was ever an option? What would a world that had only good, and nothing bad be like? Would you need to spend any effort in energy in such a world? Why?phoodoo
November 2, 2014
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Phoodoo, Behe claims the malaria that kills approx. 600,000 people every year was intentionally designed by God.
"Here’s something to ponder long and hard: Malaria was intentionally designed. The molecular machinery with which the parasite invades red blood cells is an exquisitely purposeful arrangement of parts. C-Eve’s children died in her arms partly because an intelligent agent deliberately made malaria, or at least something very similar to it. - Michael Behe, The Edge Of Evolution, p. 237
He also claims that God comes back every few years and give the malaria parasite a resistance to our new anti-malarial drugs, ostensibly so it can kill more people. Do you think he is correct?Enkidu
November 2, 2014
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Enkidu@313 What in the world are you talking about? What is the mainstream media that Behe hasn't been publishing in? You mean like his works don't count, because he has been publishing them, in like science journals about biology? He has published over 35 articles in refereed science journals. His ID work has been panned by the scientific community? You mean like by Larry Moran?? I am sure your regurgitated spin goes over very well at talkorigins. Nature magazine knows there is a problem with the elusive "Theory of Evolution". You exist in the lunatic fringe worlds of Larry Moran, and PZ Meyers.phoodoo
November 2, 2014
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Ad hominem does not empirical refutation make! Moreover, Behe has been vindicated in spades,,, Care to refute his work with actual evidence or are you content to sling mud and call it a day?bornagain77
November 2, 2014
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Correction. Behe has published exactly 2 papers in the mainstream scientific literature in the last 13 years. I forgot the 2004 stinker with fellow Creationist David Snoke.Enkidu
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