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Evolution News: In His New Book, Denton Shows How Science Leads the Charge to Theism

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Neil Thomas writes:

William Paley once quipped that observation of the complexity of the human eye (which, it will be recalled, was wont to give Darwin uncomfortable doubts about the efficacy of natural selection) supplied an assured “cure for atheism.” Extending Paley’s quip, I would add that if the eye doesn’t do it for you, the brain with its quadrillions of synchronized electro-chemical operations almost certainly will. There seems to be little exaggeration in claiming that cytology, the microscopic study of cells enabled by the ultra-high magnifications of the electron microscope, has led to a wholly unexpected revival of the fortunes of Paley’s once derided natural theology.

Recent advances in biological science, a subject formerly proclaimed to be corrosive of metaphysical beliefs1, have somewhat unexpectedly become a stimulus to the emergence of new advances which endorse many of the older observations of natural theology. As astronomer Paul Davies remarked some four decades ago, “It may seem bizarre, but in my opinion science offers a surer path to God than religion.”2 Supporting this contention — that science itself leads the charge toward a fresh theistic turn — Michael Denton makes the firm observation in his new book, The Miracle of Man: The Fine Tuning of Nature for Human Existence, that recent studies of the way the terrestrial environment appears to be fine-tuned for humankind are “not based on the Judeo-Christian scriptures or classical philosophy but on evidence derived from advances in our scientific understanding of nature.” (p. 208)

Gifts from the Gods

Providing chapter and verse for his views, in convincing detail with an enviably multi-disciplinary command, Denton elaborates on ways in which the properties of light, carbon, water, and metals contribute to the fitness of nature for humankind, providing substantial circumstantial evidence that the world we inhabit was “pre-adapted” for our use. 

The notion that we are simply an “epiphenomenon” of mindless processes cast adrift in a cosmos configured by pure chance has in the last half century or so been challenged by a new scientific landscape, Denton argues — with some understatement. For as Michael Behe comments in his advance praise of Denton’s work, the philosopher Bertrand Russell’s notorious contention that “Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving” has turned out to be “the most spectacularly wrong-headed pronouncement of the 20th century.”

Cosmologists make no bones about the fact they can see no logical pathway to how we all came to be here on this planet. The cosmological constants which create conditions favorable to life are on any statistical reckoning improbable to an extreme, even prohibitive degree. The same goes for the genesis and proliferation of life forms: the whole phenomenon remains stubbornly unamenable to rational decipherment.

Evolution News
Comments
Viola Lee at 147, Let things play out? That's like taking a wind-up toy and putting it on the floor. It usually found a wall to crash into.relatd
May 24, 2022
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VL
On the other hand, a deistic entity might know full well that such disruptions would mean that it couldn’t pre-plan everything, but might be perfectly willing to kick the world and then let it develop in undetermined ways, which might mean that human beings on earth might or might not have come into existence on earth: that is, the deistic entity didn’t care about any particular events when it got things started, but was content with knowing that it had created an interesting set of rules that would produce an interesting, eventful universe.
True. Meyer is saying that "the increase of information" at the Cambrian era or Origin of Life means that God had to intervene and create new information on earth. But as you point out, a deistic God could have a plan that runs "unsupervised". That makes no science philosophically, but people can have all sorts of ideas of God whether they make sense of not is not for science to determine. I have Christian friends who are very anti-ID for the exact reason that Meyer illustrates. In my friends' view, God is never absent from the earth. God sustains every molecule and infuses all of living and non-living things with His "information" (His presence). In fact, it's impossible for anything to exist without God sustaining it - God is everywhere and in everything. Meyer's view (which my friends have criticized and I defended Meyer claiming "he doesn't believe that", but now I see he does) is that God is absent, and then comes in to the earth to intervene. People call that "the tinkerer God". I never liked that phrase which I thought was disrespectful to people who think that way, but it is somewhat like what they're saying. Meyer is saying that ID indicates theism because God comes into the earth at various times (when, specifically? Does ID say?) and adds information. So, the deist God can't do that, supposedly - thus ID only supports theism. But again, intervention is not necessary and ID does not show that God intervened to create the first life. As stated, all of that could have been part of an eternally-created program that unfolds over time. No intervention necessary. Whether there is a random-unknown aspect that God Himself couldn't know is a theological dispute. An omnipotent God would know everything, so no surprises would be possible even in quantum effects. But you could have some kind of "less intelligent" God. It doesn't make sense to me, but ID cannot tell us anything about it. ID is just using materialist-science with the same assumptions that atheistic-Darwinism has and from that observes evidence of intelligent design. Otherwise, if ID was a religious project that sorted out the nature of the deistic God versus theistic, then it's not going to be worth much at the level of science. There are no scientific papers that address such things.Silver Asiatic
May 24, 2022
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KF
SA, can you find me a standard reference defining a modern form of deism that rejects personality of God
Good question and I can certainly do that. Meyer made a statement about deism. Notice, he made no reference to empirical science there. He didn't show any peer-reviewed scientific papers that explain what the deist God is. He just asserted a definition. So, he's engaging in philosophical and theological opinions - as if that is ID. Back to your question: I think CD's post @150 is informative. Deism proposes a god that is non-interventionist and does not offer humanity any divine revelation. To simply say "the deist God is personal" is simply to make an assertion. Where's the evidence? The point here is that we could discuss the personality of Zeus or the decision-making of Allah or whether the God of the Old Testament different from that of the New. But do you agree that ID does not address those issues? There are no biology papers or physics papers that discuss evidence for the Holy Trinity as seen in protein folding mechanisms or even in quantum physics (where apparently one can see any imaginable thing). ID is looking at science. Not philosophy or theology. Yes, pantheism is considered impersonal, but again - not necessarily. There can be a personal aspect to the gods of animism and in various forms of nature worship. Certainly, there is a personal quality, intentionality and intervention in the ancestral gods of ancient paganism also. Fascinating and useful subjects. If ID is a religious project, as some here insist - then it has to sort all of that out. There should be ID papers explaining the nature of indigenous gods, the gods of ancient paganism, Sumerian, Egyptian religions ... quite a lot. Does biology tell us which is the true God?Silver Asiatic
May 24, 2022
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LCD
Why would a “god” do something and then abandon it?
It sounds like you're looking for a religious conversation. You are asking about the nature of God and actions of God. I could assist you with references to the Bible or to Aristotle or St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Gregory Nazianzen or the creed of St. Athanasius ... But what some here do not understand is that ID doesn't address those things. There are no biological papers talking about the creative power of God or God's actions from eternity. There are no physics papers analyzing whether God intervenes in nature or if He leaves nature unattended (or if that is even possible). Physics doesn't address that. Nor does biology. ID works with physics and biology - not with a study of the Holy Bible. There are all sorts of religious questions I would be happy to discuss with anyone. Is Allah the true God? Does the Holy Spirit process from the Father and the Son? Is the Talmud consistent? Does Prajapati share theological origins with the earliest Hebrew theology? The point here is that we can't analyze chemical compounds or the mating rituals of antelopes to come up with answers to those questions. Or, on second thought, certainly someone could decide that biology will tell them whether the Holy Spirit only proceeds from the Father or not. Maybe someone thinks chemical compounds show that by their numeric arrangements. There are people who think there are hidden codes in the Bible that predict future events (The Bible Code). People can make whatever claim they want. Why not? But again, for the sake of ID and this blog - this is not the place to sort all of that out. I accept that some people here disagree with me and they think that ID is a religious project. But I'm just giving my version of ID. For me, ID is science, not religion.Silver Asiatic
May 24, 2022
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SA, can you find me a standard reference defining a modern form of deism that rejects personality of God [posessing self-awareness and being self moving, volitional etc], that is not tantamount to something like pantheism or panentheism? KFkairosfocus
May 24, 2022
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Impersonal deity is pantheism or panentheism. So Deism seems to here be a movement name.kairosfocus
May 24, 2022
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CD
A moment’s reflection shows that the concept of a “personal God” is incompatible with the creator’s non-interventionist nature.
Once again I'll agree with you here. Meyer's definition of deism is not the standard or common one, as a personal God. But I really don't care that much how he defines the actions of God. Meyer is claiming that ID sorts out what God is or isn't doing and what God is or what God isn't. There are no scientific papers that discuss this. Meyer is just using his own religious opinions as if they are science (or maybe he doesn't care about the science and is just flatly asserting that "ID is a religious program"?). Again, biology is not going to tell us whether God is personal or not, and it's not going to tell is if God intervened in nature at some time, or if all things were programmed from eternity. Science is not even going to tell us if our version of God makes sense or not. We could have a god that is absurd and illogical, but biology cannot get involved with that. Nor can physics.Silver Asiatic
May 24, 2022
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Do we have a breakthrough? At last someone who will define something. Even if the definition is not consistent with others use of the word or the world around us.jerry
May 24, 2022
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KF/143
So, Meyer is affirming that deists see God as personal.
This is a 17th century iteration of deism in its infancy. Deism was as much a political as religious movement attempting to create a non-sectarian response to the endless European religious wars of the 16th through 18th centuries. I think most, if not all, serious deists today would reject the idea of a "personal" God and define their deism as follows: 1) The creator is eternal, transcendent, impersonal and unknowable 2) After creation of the world, the creator does/did not intervene any further in creation (e.g., the rejection of miracles, answers to prayers, periodic "discontinuous infusions" of information, etc.) 3) Reason and observation are the only sources of knowledge (rejection of Scripture as revealed truth) A moment's reflection shows that the concept of a "personal God" is incompatible with the creator's non-interventionist nature.chuckdarwin
May 24, 2022
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This is an omnipresent "god" we might be talking about. If it has planned everything and is present at all moments so that it it "there" at all moments of the unfolding of that plan, then they has been no abandonment.Viola Lee
May 24, 2022
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Silver Asiatic a deist could just say that God created everything at the beginning and front loaded the information which was released through natural (even invisible to human) means through time. No intervention necessary.
:) Why would a "god" do something and then abandon it? If a man do that is considered crazy so why would someone consider the idea of a god that act like "a mother" that abandon her new-born in a dumpster?Lieutenant Commander Data
May 24, 2022
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I don't think there is anything in deism that would specify whether the deistic entity does or does not care about human beings. Deism just asserts that the entity created the universe with both its rules and its initial conditions and then let things play out. Presumably an omniscient omnipotent entity could set things up so that human beings came into existence 14 billion years later, with the qualities of caring for each other, having religious ideas, etc., just as we experience today. The problem with this is that as far as we can experience the world, quantum mechanics and chaos theory (and free will if that somehow can come to pass at some point) would disrupt the determinism that is part of the deistic view. On the other hand, a deistic entity might know full well that such disruptions would mean that it couldn't pre-plan everything, but might be perfectly willing to kick the world and then let it develop in undetermined ways, which might mean that human beings on earth might or might not have come into existence on earth: that is, the deistic entity didn't care about any particular events when it got things started, but was content with knowing that it had created an interesting set of rules that would produce an interesting, eventful universe.Viola Lee
May 23, 2022
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"That Meyer made this big mistake is disappointing to me." My bet is that it is SA who is making a big mistake.bornagain77
May 23, 2022
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KF
So, Meyer is affirming that deists see God as personal.
That's certainly one view, but the important thing is this:
If personal, does God act only at the beginning of the universe or also after it within the created order?
Meyer is claiming that ID answers that question, which is completely false. ID does not know when or how God acts in the universe. Meyer is saying that there is "an increase in information" so therefore, God had to intervene and create new information at the Cambrian explosion, for example. Not only is that not science at all, and not only does he have no direct evidence of when God did whatever God did, but a deist could just say that God created everything at the beginning and front loaded the information which was released through natural (even invisible to human) means through time. No intervention necessary. That Meyer made this big mistake is disappointing to me.Silver Asiatic
May 23, 2022
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Jerry 3) Christ started a religion – fairly obvious from the New Testament – nothing in ID says anything about this.
If you were a Creator would you code some kind of signature into biology that would prove that you are the source ? If we look to the DNA do we detect such a signature ? Shocking or not even Dawkins talked about that in "Expelled no intelligence allowed" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t09Pzg9MSZ8&t=540s PS: But of course to be possible to understand the signature in genome first we have to find out who is the Creator through an "auxilliary channel" . Right? Do exist this auxilliary channel? Of course .Lieutenant Commander Data
May 23, 2022
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F/N: Ch 11 in Meyer, Return of the God Hypothesis:
Metaphysics is the discipline of philosophy that addresses the fundamental nature of reality. Ontology, a subdiscipline of metaphysics, is concerned with questions of “being” or ultimate reality. It asks, “What is the thing or the entity or the process from which everything else comes?” Philosophers recognize several main worldviews with different answers to this ultimate, or “prime-reality,” question. “Naturalism” (or materialism) views matter and energy and the laws of nature as the prime realities. “Pantheism” asserts an impersonal deity present in matter and energy as the prime reality. “Theism” affirms a personal, intelligent, transcendent God who also acts within the creation. And “deism” affirms a personal, transcendent, intelligent God who does not act within the created order after its initial origin (Fig. 11.3). These four worldviews represent four possible ways of answering three basic questions about ultimate reality: Does God exist? If so, is God personal or impersonal? If personal, does God act only at the beginning of the universe or also after it within the created order?
So, Meyer is affirming that deists see God as personal. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2022
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Relatd, that is why we mark a distinction between a key inference and research programme and the wider design movement. Indeed, strictly, we can trace the movement back to Plato, who makes a cosmological design inference in The Laws Bk X and criticises evolutionary materialism. The more things change, the more they remain the same. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2022
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KF at 139, I get it. But science does get applied, doesn't it? It gets used by people. Until ID was defined, what did people rely on? Blind, Unguided Chance? It naturally followed that IF that was an accurate description of reality then what did it say about human beings? That we are just nothing. The result of Blind, Unguided Luck. You can't avoid this conclusion if you believe that is how the actual process works. I am sure people here understand that science is a separate investigation from religion, but it follows that science involving living things must represent reality. Version 1) You are just the end result of Blind, Unguided Luck. Version 2) You were intelligently designed along with the observable universe.relatd
May 23, 2022
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A great analogy for how evolution has been corrupted by those that choose to conflate evolution and atheism, is how the phrase “Black lives matter”, with which virtually everyone agrees, morphed into the political movement, Black Lives Matter, which has become one of the most divisive political movements of our times.ET
May 23, 2022
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Relatd, science is shot through with deep philosophical considerations from the outset. However, we can take it that many will understand objectivity, careful observation, cogent inference and the like without having to do a full orbed debate on logic of being, wider metaphysics, logic and epistemology with a dash or two of ethics. That is what the design inference is about, inferring the signified causal factor intelligently directed configuration, on tested reliable signs such as FSCO/I, fine tuning etc. Notice, process not agent at work. That requires other considerations as laid out. And, on current state of play an advanced molecular nanotech lab run by say Venter's great grandson, seems likely to be able to account for the cell and body plans. What is undeniably extracosmic is the fine tuned physics setting up a world where c hem aqueous medium cells are possible, thus biology. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2022
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JH, a loaded strawman. Disagreement is not lying, speaking with disregard to truth in hope of profiting thereby is lying. In your case, you tried to deny self evident truths that you are again appealing to by playing the put upon victim, falsely accused of lying. No, here you you are clinging to crooked yardstick thinking despite cogent correction including pointing out how you cannot even object to first duties of reason without appealing to them. Your attempt to project unfairness and dishonesty to me are further appeals to the said first duties of reason you are trying to dismiss as self evident by way of being branch on which we cannot but sit first principles.We can ask, what is objectionable about untruth, dishonesty and unfairness if there are no binding pervasive first duties of reason? It would be funny, if it were not so sad and so loaded with consequences. Rejecting duty to truth, right reason, warrant and fairness etc opens the door to disregard to truth, right reason and more. Which are anti civilisational. i suggest you reconsider, given the manifest incoherence of your attempted retorts. But then, if our rational, responsible freedom is morally governed through built in first laws which are also start points of morality, that has worldview level implications, given that the is-ought gap can only be bridged in the root of reality. That is, we need a source of the world that is not only powerful and capable of a fine tuned cosmos but also is inherently good and utterly wise, answering Hume's Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma. Which, undermines certain lab coat clad ideologies. But then, that is part of why those ideologies are self referentially incoherent, intellectually bankrupt and morally bankrupt. Let us turn from them to sounder footing. KFkairosfocus
May 23, 2022
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KF: JH, doubling down on corrected error does not transmute what you wish to suggest into truth. Ironically, you appeal again to what you would refute thus ending in incoherence, in a way that signals to us that you will insistently speak with disregard to truth, right reason and fairness. Not a good place to be, but you wish to be there, sad.
So, if I disagree with you, the only explanation is that I am lying. Well, at least I now know that you have no intention or desire to have a fair and honest discussion about the issues.JHolo
May 23, 2022
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Andrew at 130, I encouraged her to examine what she was being told more carefully.relatd
May 23, 2022
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"Students expect their teachers to give them factual information about science, about evolution." This is true. Its shameful they are misled. Andrewasauber
May 23, 2022
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Andrew at 131, Students expect their teachers to give them factual information about science, about evolution. As a kid, I believed my science teacher who said we evolved. It was only later, when valid objections were raised, that I saw how much of what was being published in textbooks was biased and just plain guesswork.relatd
May 23, 2022
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"it has nothing to do with ID" OK. Who or what was the intelligence in Intelligent Design? Just writing "you won't find that in ID" means nothing for the average person looking to get an accurate picture of reality. Your choices are: Nothing created you. You are just the end result of Blind, Unguided Luck. Or a definite someone created you.relatd
May 23, 2022
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Where is God in theistic evolution? Can anyone show precisely where God did – in reality – anything? As far as I can tell, there is no way to tell. So ‘theistic evolution’ is a worthless idea.
I suggest you read Denton's new book. There is a lot of what the creator did that is outlined in that book that happened prior to life developing and complex life appearing. Now the process for life beginning and how it then progressed is unknown. The theistic evolutionists believe the process was part of the initial creation. It just played out over time and may in fact still be playing out. If one denies that, then why did the all powerful God do it later in stages when He could have done it at the original creation? As I said above that it a very interesting question which no one here takes on. Maybe. they shouldn't since it has nothing to do with ID. But some of the discussion on ID at other places actually do address it.jerry
May 23, 2022
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Faith is mysterious. It's partly a supernatural gift. One doesn't just give it up because of some Evolution drivel. If some nonsense about Evolution causes you to do change your life, you probably had an empty head prior to. Andrewasauber
May 23, 2022
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"When I questioned certain things, she said “Why would they lie to me?” Relatd Did you explain to her why they would lie? Andrewasauber
May 23, 2022
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And I bet most people who profess belief in Evolution as taught in textbooks, couldn't explain to you very much about it. Andrewasauber
May 23, 2022
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