Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Failure to Educate? Failure to Persuade.

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'Junk DNA'
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Larry Moran replied to my latest post with an admission of failure. He thinks he has failed to educate, but I think rather he is confusing the word ‘persuade’ with the word ‘educate’.

He thinks I am rationalising junk DNA with a pile of ‘what-ifs’. But the fact is that most of my ‘what-ifs’ are already known to have some basis in reality. I am not denying any obvious reality. Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around. Yes, there could also be a great deal of junk. That’s why I have said a number of times that ID is not committed to the idea that there is no junk.

Yet, from my point of view, I see a whole pile of Darwinian/post-Darwinian materialists who have only partly explored the genome, working from an assumption that the genome was not designed, and thus are jumping the gun on the evidence. For example, Larry still seems to think that pseudogenes are of themselves ‘solid evidence’ of broken genes despite the fact that we know that at least some pseudogenes influence the rate of translation of real genes by competing with them; a simple design reason why there should be ‘false genes’ = pseudogenes. Who has explored the rest of them?

From his emotive response to my perfectly valid, albeit speculative suggestions (though they were not plucked out of the air either), I don’t trust this guy to think clearly and calmly about the possibility of design. That’s the real problem.

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Edit 12 May 2013:

Larry’s insistence that pseudogene = ‘broken gene’ comes from a particular way of thinking about biology: thinking of it in terms of a historical narrative rather than simply reporting the facts of what we see now. This affects much of what he talks about, but here I am choosing to focus on pseudogenes. The best way to talk science is to first state facts and provide an explanation, and then let the observer make up his mind, having been educated, and then let the observer attempt his own explanation of the facts. Being clear about what are facts, and what are interpretations, aids this, but Larry does not practice this when dealing with ID.

The facts are that we have many false genes (pseudogenes) that look like strikingly like particular real genes, and that some of them are known to be functional, and some of those are known to operate by regulating their corresponding real genes by generating competing transcripts. One possible history that would arrive at these observations is if a real gene was duplicated and then one copy was broken to make the pseudogene, and that some subsequently ‘discovered’ a function by chance. Larry believes this is the only possible explanation. He asserts ‘pseudogenes are broken genes’, as if true by definition. However, it is not the only explanation if one considers design. A designer might well make a false gene to regulate a real gene in this way. Why not? But Larry doesn’t consider design. He doesn’t even look at the possibility. That’s why he doesn’t understand that pseudogenes are not necessarily broken genes, and thus are not evidence for junk.

Larry was rather snide about computer scientists, as if they don’t understand the fundamentals of biology. Hmmm. I am more of a mathematical physicist than a computer scientist, and it seems to me that Larry doesn’t understand that stories/narratives about genes breaking and then discovering new function, are not enough for those looking for a natural (physical) explanation. I want to see hard probabilities. It seems that biologists are too happy with narrative and don’t realise the importance of probabilities. If you don’t know how to estimate probabilities, I am sure people like Doug Axe and the Biologic Institute could help you.

Comments
StephenB, it's interesting that the only person you can find to support you is KF, with an irrelevant example of electron positron pairs and the formation of a zygote. The concept of "potential existence" is interesting. Did you make it up? At what point does one potentially exist? Once one attains the status of potential existence what criteria determine whether that becomes actual existence? Does potential existence always become actual existence, or could I in theory have existed potentially and never achieved actual existence? Not that this has anything to do with your debate with RDFish which you lost a long time ago.5for
June 3, 2013
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Hi Stephen,
A sperm cell is a potential human being.
Yes, and atoms are potential motorcycles, and clouds are potential raindrops, and... We are not talking about taking things that already exist and reshaping them into something else that exists. Rather, you very clearly are talking about things that do not exist and somehow making them exist. Here's a nice summary of where you have failed to respond to my arguments. 1) To say that "something receives existence" entails a logical contradiction (because it presupposes existence) 2) "Potential existence" is an incoherent concept (except in the most banal sense of one existing thing being shaped into something else) 3) LoC cannot be logically derived from the LNC (because existence is not a predicate) 4) Knowledge can never be absolutely certain (because epistemology is not solved) 5) Logic cannot be formally mapped to abstract questions of existence, e.g. the origin of the universe, the nature of causality, the problem of free will, etc, and so the Rules of Reason do not produce objectively true answers to these questions. That's what we've argued about, and those are my arguments. You've disagreed with every one of them, but I predict you cannot summarize your counter-arguments, and I further predict that instead of trying, you will make up an excuse. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 3, 2013
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Funny, from what Ive seen, most of your buddies on here are guilty of that same long-winded nonsense blabbering.Joealtle
June 3, 2013
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RD
There is no such thing as “potential existence”.
Your ignorance is a wonder to behold. A sperm cell is a potential human being. A baby is a potential adult. Matter is potential form. One can only guess why you are motivated to write paragraph after paragraph of such unbridled nonsense. The remainder of your long winded screed doesn't deserve a response since it contains similar examples of untutored sophistry.StephenB
June 3, 2013
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kairosfocus @416. The conservation of mass-energy does not forbid anything from receiving existence, e.g. pair production of electron-positron pairs from high energy photons, etc. Right. Thank you. RD is simply trying to create an objection out of thin air. I asked him to defend his claim that the Law of Conservation could possibly be a problem for the Law of Causality and all he does is repeat the claim while providing no rational justification.
At less exotic levels, composite objects receive existence all the time, such as when a zygote is formed and then unfolds in accordance with the in-built programme of development phases leading to a newborn.
Yes, of course. Potential existence is actualized when anyone or anything comes into being.
Things which depend on external causal factors can and do come into existence, we say they have a beginning.
Right again.
RDF, sad to say, is blowing smoke and using trick mirrors as usual.
Unfortunately, that is, indeed, the case. All he does is blow smoke.
What does not come into existence is true necessary beings, things that have no such dependencies and are capable of being in the first place i.e. their proposed attributes are not in mutual contradiction like a square circle. KF
Or, we could say is that the necessary being is being itself and that every contingent creature has being that has been conferred on it.StephenB
June 3, 2013
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SB: The conservation of mass-energy does not forbid anything from receiving existence, e.g. pair production of electron-positron pairs from high energy photons, etc. At less exotic levels, composite objects receive existence all the time, such as when a zygote is formed and then unfolds in accordance with the in-built programme of development phases leading to a newborn. Things which depend on external causal factors can and do come into existence, we say they have a beginning. RDF, sad to say, is blowing smoke and using trick mirrors as usual. What does not come into existence is true necessary beings, things that have no such dependencies and are capable of being in the first place i.e. their proposed attributes are not in mutual contradiction like a square circle. KFkairosfocus
June 3, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
I have indicated several times that self-evident truths are just that-self evident.
And I've never denied these or their warrant for belief. I've simply denied that they can be used to evaluate much of what we try and understand in the world, because logic does not capture the complexity of philosophy. You actually came to agree with me on this point, but you didn't realize it.
You don’t like it when I say that I know that a finite whole can never be less than any one its parts, or that something cannot come from nothing, or that a cause is necessary for an effect, or that a thing cannot be what it is and also something else.
The problem is not with logic; the problem is with mapping logic to the real world of our experience. You think that because the logic is sound, we can therefore come to objectively true conclusions about the nature of reality. My position has been that this doesn't work, and I (and others here) have tried to explain to you why that is.
Nevertheless, I do know these things. You don’t like it when I tie these first principles to rationality, but alas, that is what rationality means–in keeping with reason’s rules.
Your mistake, as always, is to mistake formal logic for reasoning. They are vastly different things. If reasoning could actually be reduced to formal logic, then computers could be programmed to reason the way people do. But reasoning does not reduce to logic, and computers cannot (at least currently) be programmed to reason the way people do. Logic is vitally important, and can use it to find inconsistencies and fallacies in arguments (as I did in your LNC->LoC argument). But we can't use logic to tell us the truth about the nature of the universe, free will, and so on.
I also know, as clarified in my last example, that parents give life and their offspring receive it in the same way that the cause gives and the effect receives. So, I, nor anyone else will likely be impressed with your attempts to evade that fact.
I've never attempted to evade an argument or fact in these discussions, and it is simply rude and silly and immature of your to pretend that I have. And I'm sorry, but your point about the fact that biological organisms reproduce somehow supports your inferences regarding causality in the universe is completely incoherent. It's like saying that because the Earth orbits the Sun, that means "everything that goes around comes around", and therefore the Law of Karma must be true. It's just wordplay - nonsense - it's not even a beginning of a well-formed argument about anything.
As usual, your response is totally irrelevant. If you don’t think that something or someone that doesn’t have life can “receive” life, and you have argued passionately than any such expression is a contradiction,
This is just bizarre. Biological organisms all reproduce, yes. What does this have to do with violating conservation laws, or the beginning of the universe, or causality on quantum scales, or your unsound argument for connecting the LNC with causality? Nothing whatsover. The fact that women give birth to babies has nothing to do with something that does not exist somehow "receiving existence"! The former is a reasonably well-understood biological phenomenon; the latter is a weird metaphysical argument that you mistakenly believe leads from the LNC to a universal law of causality.
...then what noun/verb combination would you use to characterize the new life from the vantage point of the human who is taking it on?
What??? How about "A baby is born"? This has nothing to do with anything we've talked about! No violations of mass/energy conseration, nothing about things that don't exist "receiving existence" or anything else! How does a drop of rain form from a cloud, or a wave form on the ocean, or a diamond form underground, or.... none of these things has anything to do with your position on how new matter/energy is "given existence" or anything else we've talked about.
Reminiscent of your earlier responses, you claim victory, ignore the challenge, and start talking about the mystery of fires.
On the contrary, I address every single one of your arguments, no matter how incoherent, and show you why you are wrong. Other folks here can see that; you unfortunately cannot.
RDFish, I should probably go ahead and explain exactly why you are wrong since my questions do not seem to be serving their role as thought stimulators.
Gee, you think you should make an argument instead of a string of insults? There's a thought!
Things can exist actually or they can exist potentially.
Huh? Things either exist or they do not - there is no middle ground. "Potential existence" is not a well-defined concept.
There was a time when each of us didn’t exist, but in our nonexistence we had the potential to receive existence or life.
That doesn't mean anything at all. If you don't exist, you have nothing - no attributes, no characteristics, nothing.
Thus, it is perfectly logical to say that something or someone who is non-existent can “receive” existence.
No, it is perfectly illogical! That is the whole point about Kant's argument! Did you even bother to look up his argument so you can understand it? I explained it to you several times, and you simply ignore it! Existence IS NOT a predicate (an attribute, characteristic, or quality) that can be attributed to something - trying to think of existence that way leads to logical contradictions. I explained this to you in English and you dismissed it. So I showed you this using formal logic... and you simply denied it was relevant!! But even Christian theologians accepted this, so for you to simply dismiss it without argument shows that you are not trying to argue your position, you are just stubbornly holding to it.
Indeed, it is absolutely necessary to use that term to show the cause/effect relationship between the giver and receiver of existence.
It is demonstrably contradictory to say that something "receives existence". Your idea that it is like a baby being born is absurd: Babies are built from the food that the mother eats, Stephen - you know that, right??? I have shown you, in formal logic, why the way you think of causality leads to contradiction. You need to address what I showed, with a better rebuttal than "logic is irrelevant"!
You insist that a thing cannot receive existence at all and to say so is to fall into contradiction.
Specifically I (and Kant and the majority of philosophers in the world) reject that it makes sense to say "X receives existence", for the precise reasons I explained.
Your aim was to prove the point using symbolic logic. Unfortunately, your symbols didn’t take potential existence into account, so they did not capture the philosophical point.
There is no such thing as "potential existence". Do unicorns enjoy this "potential existence"? Does anything exist potentially? What is the difference between something that exists potentially and something that doesn't exist potentially, and how do you tell?
Though I don’t think symbolic logic has near the substance of classical logic, it can be more efficient if used properly and in the right context. You didn’t use it properly.
I used it in the same way Kant did, and the way I used it was self-evidently correct, and your attempt to rehabilitate your argument using this concept of "potential existence" is an admission that I am quite correct, because you introduced no such concept originally! You know that your argument failed, and that my logical demonstration proved that, and now you are trying to patch it up with this new idea about "potential existence" - except it is nonsense.
All this came about because you were looking for ways to invalidate my perfectly logical and air tight argument that the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Causality are inseparable.
I was showing your attempt to infer the LoC from the LNC is fatally flawed. Moreover, your Law of Causality is in conflict with both libertarianism and the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation. What a mess!
There is no logical way to separate them, so you resorted to an illogical argument, namely the claim that something cannot receive existence.
Hahahahaha!! My argument was stated in formal logic - and you call it "illogical"! Hahahaha. If you wish to believe that mass/energy that does not exist at time A suddenly exists at time B, you cannot use this fallacious and discredited notion of "something receiving existence". Rather, you have to say what you really mean, which is "creation ex nihilo". That way you salvage logic (at the expense of our physical conservation laws).
(If anyone is curious [at this point, I don’t think we have an audience] as to why the capacity to receive existence is related to the argument that the LNC and LoC are inseparable, I will be happy to take you through the derivation).
You did that already, and I demonstrated you were wrong. Now you are attempting to save your argument by introducing this ill-defined notion of "potential existence". If you are serious, and think you can actually salvage your failed argument using this idea, you need to explain what "potential existence" means, how it differs from "actual existence" and from "nonexistence", how you can tell when something potentially exists and when it doesn't, what sorts of attributes potentially existing things have and how we know that, and so on. Good luck with that. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 3, 2013
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RDFish, I should probably go ahead and explain exactly why you are wrong since my questions do not seem to be serving their role as thought stimulators. Things can exist actually or they can exist potentially. There was a time when each of us didn’t exist, but in our nonexistence we had the potential to receive existence or life. Thus, it is perfectly logical to say that something or someone who is non-existent can “receive” existence. Indeed, it is absolutely necessary to use that term to show the cause/effect relationship between the giver and receiver of existence. You insist that a thing cannot receive existence at all and to say so is to fall into contradiction. Your aim was to prove the point using symbolic logic. Unfortunately, your symbols didn’t take potential existence into account, so they did not capture the philosophical point. Though I don’t think symbolic logic has near the substance of classical logic, it can be more efficient if used properly and in the right context. You didn’t use it properly. All this came about because you were looking for ways to invalidate my perfectly logical and air tight argument that the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Causality are inseparable. There is no logical way to separate them, so you resorted to an illogical argument, namely the claim that something cannot receive existence. (If anyone is curious [at this point, I don’t think we have an audience] as to why the capacity to receive existence is related to the argument that the LNC and LoC are inseparable, I will be happy to take you through the derivation).StephenB
June 3, 2013
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RDFish, I have indicated several times that self-evident truths are just that-self evident. You don't like it when I say that I know that a finite whole can never be less than any one its parts, or that something cannot come from nothing, or that a cause is necessary for an effect, or that a thing cannot be what it is and also something else. Nevertheless, I do know these things. You don't like it when I tie these first principles to rationality, but alas, that is what rationality means--in keeping with reason's rules. I also know, as clarified in my last example, that parents give life and their offspring receive it in the same way that the cause gives and the effect receives. So, I, nor anyone else will likely be impressed with your attempts to evade that fact. As usual, your response is totally irrelevant. If you don't think that something or someone that doesn't have life can "receive" life, and you have argued passionately than any such expression is a contradiction, then what noun/verb combination would you use to characterize the new life from the vantage point of the human who is taking it on? Reminiscent of your earlier responses, you claim victory, ignore the challenge, and start talking about the mystery of fires.StephenB
June 3, 2013
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Hi StephenB, Neither of us were writing for an audience; we were writing to defend our views. The moral of this story is this: When you think all of your views are rock solid TRUTH, it's time to talk to somebody who has really thought about this stuff, and get reminded that things really aren't as certain as you so want to believe. You're wrong about absolute objective certainty, and you're wrong about logic and the Rules of Reason providing answers to philosophical questions. Most of all, you're wrong to think that you know the answers to questions of free will, the origin of the universe, or the origin of life. You really don't, and nobody else does either. Some of us are just wiser about what we don't know. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 2, 2013
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Hi RD: All good things must come to an end. I think we have lost our audience. Cheers.StephenB
June 2, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
You said my scenarios were logically possible and I said that they were not and cannot, therefore, be demonstrated to be so. The Wikipedia article explained the ways in which some scenarios that that are physically impossible can be logically possible. I understand that such circumstances are possible, but they do not apply to my examples. That is why I used the examples that I used. I knew what I was doing when I put them on the table. They are both physically and logically impossible.
Ok, well that's a much more understandable response, thank you. I have previously alluded to the fact that logical/physical possibility, just like everything else in philosophy, is controversial. There are some philosophers (notably "objectivists") who deny the dichotomy altogether, along with the analytic/synthetic dichotomy. And other philosophers, as I noted, make much more fine-grained distinctions. As I've said repeatedly, it is not my desire or intent to delve into this particular issue per se, as it detracts from our primary differences.
If something is physically impossible, but logically possible, it can easily be demonstrated, just as Wikipedia did in its example. If, on the other hand, something is both physically and logically impossible, it cannot be demonstrated to be logically possible because it isn’t logically possible. Such is the case with my examples. They are neither physically or logically possible. That is why you cannot explain otherwise. I knew that you could not show how they are logically possible because I knew that they are not logically possible.
Well, I still disagree, and if you insist on slogging this out, I will ask you, "What is logically impossible about a splinter expanding into a wooden beam?" What contradiction is encountered? It is not logically impossible for a corn kernel to expand into popcorn, or a balloon to expand as it floats to the surface of a pool, or shaving cream to expand out of a can... why then is it logically impossible for a splinter of wood to expand into a beam? And why does it matter?
So, when you say that I don’t know, or do not account for the distinction between a physical impossibility and a logical possibility, you are simply not telling the truth.
Your responses were such that it appeared to me (and others) that you were simply avoiding the issue regarding logical/physical possibility, rather than trying to make a substantive claim.
You are disingenuously erecting a strawmen to avoid refutation and to avoid showing how my examples are logically possible.
You are indulging in baseless ad hominem attacks because you hate losing arguments.
RDF: You are apparently arguing that our discussion regarding causality can’t really be captured by logic. What, you mean that reality is such that formal logic cannot be used to answer these questions? Really? Please, please tell me you see the irony here. SB: On the contrary, I have been arguing all along that logic and causality are inextricably tied together. You have been arguing that they are not. That is what started this whole mess.
No, let's get this straight: 1) Your position is that we can obtain 100% certain truths regarding questions of ontology, origins, volition, and so on by taking self-evident truths and applying logical rules. 2) I have denied that your position is reasonable, for lots of different reasons that we've gone through (and SCordova has even provided some more) 3) Then you turn around and complain that when I use formal logic to destroy another one of your arguments, it isn't valid because logical rules don't capture the reality you are trying to describe! 4) I point out the delicious irony of that situation, and ask that you concede your own argument has circled around and bitten you in the butt. You have stated MY point - that logic does not capture these arguments and allow us to reach objective truths in these matters. 5) Instead of conceding, you irrelevantly state that your position is that "logic and causality are inextricably tied"! Wow.
I, too, reject Anselm’s argument. The best proofs for God’s existence are aposteriori, not apriori. Your example is inappropriate for the argument on the table. Anselm’s argument goes far beyond any claims that effects always have causes–far beyond.
Well, the point isn't about Anselm's proof - it was about Kant's argument that existence is not a property that can be added to something. Your attempt to tie LNC to LoC relied on this exact same illogical maneuver - saying that something can "receive existence" from something else. That is nonsense, as Kant demonstrated quite compellingly.
SB: I can, for example, say a great many things about a non-existent universe. Among other things, it has no mass or energy.” RDF: Of course. You would say “There exists no X such that X is a universe and X has (mass or energy)”. SB: There you go. I can make claims about a non-existent universe, including its capacity to receive being.
No, that is not making claims about a non-existent universe that can recieve being. It is a statement that says there is no such thing as a universe that has mass or energy. To state "There is a non-existent X" is to state a contradiction, pure and simple. It is saying "There exists an X such that X does not exist".
RDF: There are no logical contradictions involved – we can easily imagine these things without contradiction – and so it is logically possible, period. SB: You keep saying that we can imagine it, but you cannot show me how it is possible. I can’t imagine how one can get a two-by-four out of a splinter.
Just as 5for said, it's like the CGI effects in Terminator, where metal expanded from a little pool on the floor into a humanoid terminator guy. I'm imagining that right now.
I don’t think you can imagine it either–not without changing the nature of wood.
The physical nature of wood - yes!!!!! That is why I said it was physically impossible!!! But not the "logical nature" of wood - there is no "logical nature" of wood!
To be sure, you can make the claim, but if you really can conceive of it, you should be able to bridge the gap between the two-by-four and the splinter. So, bridge the gap.
Ok. There is this weird tree in South America and its wood expands greatly in high-temperature high-humidity situations. The expansion varies, but can be up to 1000x in some cases where a great deal of water and air enter the wood, elongating and thickening the cellulosic fibers. In addition, a crystalline structure appears that yields polygonic shapes, so sometimes a small, irregular splinter of this wood expands into a large rectangular solid. Is this a logically consistent story? Of course it is. Is it a physically true story? Of course not. I beg you, let's drop this silly point - it really is going absolutely nowhere. Let us simply agree to disagree about this!
RDF: It appears that our conceptions of causality, conservation, time and space, and other fundamental concepts do not apply to situations so removed from our experience. Just like intuitive concepts of realism and locality do not appear to apply to quantum contexts. So, I have absolutely no idea how the universe came to exist, and you have absolutely no idea either, and neither does anybody else. SB: That’s all very interesting, I am sure.
I see - you seem to not care about these substantive issues, and instead you're preoccupied by splinters and snow men. Come on - let's talk about something interesting!
I am simply responding to your claim that the Law of Causality is in conflict with the Law of Conservation. I say it isn’t; you say it is. Show me why.
READ WHAT I WRITE AND RESPOND TO IT: It is not the metaphysical Law of Causality per se that I think contradicts conservation; rather, it is what you described, which is something that doesn’t exist beginning to exist. If this thing that comes into being is matter or energy, then you’ve violated conservation. How can you say something comes into existence without violating conservation???
I continue to be astonished at these claims that non-being cannot receive being.
Physics says that matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Do not be astonished - it is a cornerstone of our understanding of the physical world.
Clearly, being cannot receive being so what else is left to receive it other than non-being.
I do not know what you mean when you say "being cannot recieve being".
It is the same with life. Life is passed on from generation to generation. Parents give life to their offspring, and their offspring receive life from their parents. The latter cannot have life unless they receive it, and they cannot receive it unless they do not have it and someone else gives it to them. If they don’t receive it, how else are they going to get it? Can someone give it to them without their receiving it? I sincerely want an answer to this question from anyone in shouting distance, either from my supporters or my adversaries. If the import of this question is not evident, I will be happy to explain it.
How does fire appear from no-fire? There is just wood and air and heat, and then all of a sudden, fire appears! How can that be? We actually can explain how fire appears, but we can't explain how life appears, and neither can we explain how the universe began. NOBODY KNOWS the answers to these questions. It apparently takes some courage for some people to admit this (it actually doesn't bother me at all), but it is the case. You may decide to pick some creation story or another, and that is just fine!!! There may even be big psychological and social benefits from it, and I would never judge somebody for it. I simply think that it is important not to pretend that whatever creation story you happen to pick is objectively and obviously true, and that anyone who doesn't see it your way is "incapable of rational thought"!!! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 2, 2013
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I continue to be astonished at these claims that non-being cannot receive being. Clearly, being cannot receive being so what else is left to receive it other than non-being. It is the same with life. Life is passed on from generation to generation. Parents give life to their offspring, and their offspring receive life from their parents. The latter cannot have life unless they receive it, and they cannot receive it unless they do not have it and someone else gives it to them. If they don't receive it, how else are they going to get it? Can someone give it to them without their receiving it? I sincerely want an answer to this question from anyone in shouting distance, either from my supporters or my adversaries. If the import of this question is not evident, I will be happy to explain it.StephenB
June 2, 2013
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RD
You are apparently arguing that our discussion regarding causality can’t really be captured by logic. What, you mean that reality is such that formal logic cannot be used to answer these questions? Really? Please, please tell me you see the irony here.
On the contrary, I have been arguing all along that logic and causality are inextricably tied together. You have been arguing that they are not. That is what started this whole mess.
In any case, students of philosophy will recognize this argument from Kant’s famous rebuttal of Anselm’s ontological proof. Even the majority of Christian scholars abandoned Anselm’s proof when Kant pointed out that it rests on the logically intractable notion that existence is an attribute that can be added to a thing.
I, too, reject Anselm's argument. The best proofs for God's existence are aposteriori, not apriori. Your example is inappropriate for the argument on the table. Anselm's argument goes far beyond any claims that effects always have causes--far beyond. "I can, for example, say a great many things about a non-existent universe. Among other things, it has no mass or energy."
Of course. You would say “There exists no X such that X is a universe and X has (mass or energy)”.
There you go. I can make claims about a non-existent universe, including its capacity to receive being.
There are no logical contradictions involved – we can easily imagine these things without contradiction – and so it is logically possible, period.
You keep saying that we can imagine it, but you cannot show me how it is possible. I can't imagine how one can get a two-by-four out of a splinter. I don't think you can imagine it either--not without changing the nature of wood. To be sure, you can make the claim, but if you really can conceive of it, you should be able to bridge the gap between the two-by-four and the splinter. So, bridge the gap.
It appears that our conceptions of causality, conservation, time and space, and other fundamental concepts do not apply to situations so removed from our experience. Just like intuitive concepts of realism and locality do not appear to apply to quantum contexts. So, I have absolutely no idea how the universe came to exist, and you have absolutely no idea either, and neither does anybody else.
That's all very interesting, I am sure. I am simply responding to your claim that the Law of Causality is in conflict with the Law of Conservation. I say it isn't; you say it is. Show me why.StephenB
June 2, 2013
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Everything is logically possible unless there is a logical contradiction, and there is no logical contradiction in your scenario. I’ve told you this endlessly, but you really don’t want to hear it.
Yes, that's right. You said my scenarios were logically possible and I said that they were not and cannot, therefore, be demonstrated to be so. The Wikipedia article explained the ways in which some scenarios that that are physically impossible can be logically possible. I understand that such circumstances are possible, but they do not apply to my examples. That is why I used the examples that I used. I knew what I was doing when I put them on the table. They are both physically and logically impossible. If something is physically impossible, but logically possible, it can easily be demonstrated, just as Wikipedia did in its example. If, on the other hand, something is both physically and logically impossible, it cannot be demonstrated to be logically possible because it isn’t logically possible. Such is the case with my examples. They are neither physically or logically possible. That is why you cannot explain otherwise. I knew that you could not show how they are logically possible because I knew that they are not logically possible. So, when you say that I don’t know, or do not account for the distinction between a physical impossibility and a logical possibility, you are simply not telling the truth. You are disingenuously erecting a strawmen to avoid refutation and to avoid showing how my examples are logically possible.StephenB
June 2, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
I specifically said that the difference you allude to doesn’t apply to our discussion. I also allowed for the difference when I asked you to explain the logical impossibility on the basis of the logical impossibility alone.
Huh? I've said perhaps three dozen times that these things are NOT logically impossible, but rather physically impossible. I really could not have been more clear about this.
You refused to justify your illogical claim—and still do, yet you are the one who said it is logically possible.
Everything is logically possible unless there is a logical contradiction, and there is no logical contradiction in your scenario. I've told you this endlessly, but you really don't want to hear it.
RDF: It is not the metaphysical Law of Causality per se that I think contradicts conservation; rather, it is what you described, which is something that doesn’t exist beginning to exist. If this thing that comes into being is matter or energy, then you’ve violated conservation. SB: Another question unanswered. You are simply making another claim without an explanation.
My claim is that creation of matter/energy violates the conservation of matter/energy, and that is the answer to your question regarding how what you said violated conservation laws. Again, it really couldn't be more clear, and I'm certain that any fair reader would agree with me.
HOW does a thing, such as a universe (that once didn’t exist and comes into existence) such as the universe, violate conservation.
It appears that our conceptions of causality, conservation, time and space, and other fundamental concepts do not apply to situations so removed from our experience. Just like intuitive concepts of realism and locality do not appear to apply to quantum contexts. So, I have absolutely no idea how the universe came to exist, and you have absolutely no idea either, and neither does anybody else.
RDF: That is why existence can’t be a predicate, and that is why your attempt to ground causality in the LNC fails. SB: Predicate logic used in that fashion fails for the simple reason that it does not capture the analysis.
Oh, this is just too delicious. You are apparently arguing that our discussion regarding causality can't really be captured by logic. What, you mean that reality is such that formal logic cannot be used to answer these questions? Really? Please, please tell me you see the irony here. In any case, students of philosophy will recognize this argument from Kant's famous rebuttal of Anselm's ontological proof. Even the majority of Christian scholars abandoned Anselm's proof when Kant pointed out that it rests on the logically intractable notion that existence is an attribute that can be added to a thing. Now, you needn't even use predicate logic to see this; I had made the same point using English, but you didn't want to see it. Logic just makes it perfectly clear, because we must make our existential quantifiers explicit in formal logic. Here is yet another way to understand it: When you say that X "receives being from" Y, you imply that X is already something exemplified in the world, even though it doesn't exist, and that is the root of the contradiction. What you should say instead to avoid contradiction is "Y creates X ex nihilo". That of course violates no logical principle, but it does violate the physical law of conservation! As has been pointed out by our friendly reader, you've lost your arms and legs on this one, Stephen. Now raise your bloody stump and concede!
It implies that one cannot meaningfully refer to or say anything about nothingness or non-existence, which is ridiculous.
No, you can say things about non-existence in logic of course!
I can, for example, say a great many things about a non-existent universe. Among other things, it has no mass or energy.
Of course. You would say "There exists no X such that X is a universe and X has (mass or energy)". You can even say "There exists no X such that X exists" (not true, but logically sound) And you can say "There exists no X such that X does not exist" (true AND logically sound) But you cannot say "There exists X such that X does not exist" (logically contradictory) The last of these is tantamount to your argument: "There exists X such that X does not exist and X receives existence from Y".
All these things would be obvious to a rational person.
Oooh, there's that anger again. It really does make you look a little desperate.
Notice how I address your questions while you run away from my questions.
I have answered every single one of your questions, Stephen. You don't want this to be the case, because it means you're wrong, but it's all right here in black and white.
Are you now going to justify your claim that a wooden splinter can logically morph into a wood beam or a gold sliver can logically morph into a gold bar.
Things do not "logically morph" - they "physically morph"! Water does not logically turn into ice, it physically turns into ice! Splinters do not logically morph into a beam, and nor do they physically do so! Splinters turning into beams can't happen because they are physically impossible, and there is no such thing as a "logical explanation" of something that is physically impossible! There are no logical contradictions involved - we can easily imagine these things without contradiction - and so it is logically possible, period. Yes, you may plug your ears and sing la-la-la every time I answer, and pretend that I'm running away, but it won't help. There's this little piece inside of you that knows you're wrong about these things. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 2, 2013
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RDFIsh
Thanks, but too late :-)
OK, I will withdraw my offer to refrain from asking you to answer my question. RDFish:
You refuse to acknowledge the difference between logical and physical possibility, and refuse to acknowledge that no logical contradiction arises from your scenario, and refuse to acknowledge that since it is a physical impossibility, there can obviously be no explanation for how it could physically happen. I’m quite happy to leave this one to the fair reader.
That is an untrue statement. I specifically said that the difference you allude to doesn't apply to our discussion. I also allowed for the difference when I asked you to explain the logical impossibility on the basis of the logical impossibility alone. You refused to justify your illogical claim---and still do, yet you are the one who said it is logically possible.
It is not the metaphysical Law of Causality per se that I think contradicts conservation; rather, it is what you described, which is something that doesn’t exist beginning to exist. If this thing that comes into being is matter or energy, then you’ve violated conservation.
Another question unanswered. You are simply making another claim without an explanation. HOW does a thing, such as a universe (that once didn't exist and comes into existence) such as the universe, violate conservation.
In predicate logic, the proposition “X receives Y” is denoted as: There exists X such that X receives Y In your argument, you propose “a non-existent thing receives existence”. Thus, “X” (the subject) is “non-existent thing” and “Y” (the predicate) is “existence” Substituting for X and Y, we have: There exists a non-existent thing such that it receives existence This entails a contradiction. That is why existence can’t be a predicate, and that is why your attempt to ground causality in the LNC fails.
Predicate logic used in that fashion fails for the simple reason that it does not capture the analysis. It implies that one cannot meaningfully refer to or say anything about nothingness or non-existence, which is ridiculous. I can, for example, say a great many things about a non-existent universe. Among other things, it has no mass or energy. I can also say many thing about nothingness in general, such as, something cannot come from nothing. All these things would be obvious to a rational person. Notice how I address your questions while you run away from my questions. Are you now going to justify your claim that a wooden splinter can logically morph into a wood beam or a gold sliver can logically morph into a gold bar. Are you even willing to try? Why not try a little predicate logic?StephenB
June 2, 2013
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StephenB you need to realise and accept when you have lost an argument. You remind me of that knight in the monty python sketch who won't stop fighting even when all his arms and legs have been cut off. '"It's only a flesh wound"...5for
June 2, 2013
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Hi Stephen,
You said it was logically possible to get a wooden beam from a two-by-four splinter. I simply asked you to show me how it was logically possible. Since you cannot do it, or will not even try, and since I knew that you could not or would not, it seems obvious that I won the debate.
You refuse to acknowledge the difference between logical and physical possibility, and refuse to acknowledge that no logical contradiction arises from your scenario, and refuse to acknowledge that since it is a physical impossibility, there can obviously be no explanation for how it could physically happen. I'm quite happy to leave this one to the fair reader.
Let’s try to end on a positive note. Just to show you what a good sport I can be, I will give you a pass on answering my question,
Thanks, but too late :-)
but I will try to answer your question as sincerely as possible. How’s that for being magnanimous?
Uncommonly so!
First, though, you need to explain, in detail, why you think that the metaphysical Law of Causality, which informs all physical laws including the Law of Conservation, could possibly violate the latter,
It is not the metaphysical Law of Causality per se that I think contradicts conservation; rather, it is what you described, which is something that doesn't exist beginning to exist. If this thing that comes into being is matter or energy, then you've violated conservation.
..and second, you need to explain, in detail, why you think that the fact that the noun “existence” is not a predicate negates the possibility that a non-existent thing can receive existence from something else.
Ok then: In predicate logic, the proposition "X receives Y" is denoted as: There exists X such that X receives Y In your argument, you propose "a non-existent thing receives existence". Thus, "X" (the subject) is "non-existent thing" and "Y" (the predicate) is "existence" Substituting for X and Y, we have: There exists a non-existent thing such that it receives existence This entails a contradiction. That is why existence can't be a predicate, and that is why your attempt to ground causality in the LNC fails. Your turn! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 2, 2013
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RDFish
Just skip the problem regarding conservation laws, and skip the problem that existence is not a predicate (which, if you understood it, would reveal to you why if something doesn’t exist, it can’t actually “receive existence” from something else).
Let's try to end on a positive note. Just to show you what a good sport I can be, I will give you a pass on answering my question, but I will try to answer your question as sincerely as possible. How's that for being magnanimous? First, though, you need to explain, in detail, why you think that the metaphysical Law of Causality, which informs all physical laws including the Law of Conservation, could possibly violate the latter, and second, you need to explain, in detail, why you think that the fact that the noun "existence" is not a predicate negates the possibility that a non-existent thing can receive existence from something else.StephenB
June 1, 2013
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SB:Notice how RDF refuses to defend his claim… RDF:What I notice is how rude you get when you’re losing a debate. Speak to me, please, instead of about me. You are getting a little hysterical aren't you? You said it was logically possible to get a wooden beam from a two-by-four splinter. I simply asked you to show me how it was logically possible. Since you cannot do it, or will not even try, and since I knew that you could not or would not, it seems obvious that I won the debate. Thank you for playing.StephenB
June 1, 2013
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StephenB,
If you cannot grasp the point that only something that doesn’t exist can receive existence, then you are not capable of rational thought.
Ah, yes, OK. If you can't actually win an argument, the next best thing is to vilify your opponent. Sure, Stephen, I'm incapable of rational thought - yes, that's the problem. You may now sleep easy, knowing that all of my arguments that you had no response to were just the ramblings of an irrational lunatic! Just skip the problem regarding conservation laws, and skip the problem that existence is not a predicate (which, if you understood it, would reveal to you why if something doesn't exist, it can't actually "receive existence" from something else). No need to think or argue, just declare that anyone who disagrees with you is insane! Nice job! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 1, 2013
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Hi SCordova,
But that may be a moot point since I’ve already managed to say something offensive to 90% of my colleagues here UD. If this were face book, I’d have been delisted from people’s friends list. You are correct to perceive that StephenB and I would disagree. But I’d prefer not to characterize dialogue as one party “schooling” another. All this to say, I’ll pass on picking many more conflicts at UD…I’ve created enough myself.
Sorry, I didn't mean to put you in an awkward situation. Anyway, as you point out, it's not so much StephenB's views that I disagree with, it is his absolutism about his ability to objectively reason from self-evident first principles all the way up to his own particular faith-based positions on the profound questions of existence.
I’m not trying to play Darwin’s advocate in the discussion, everything I’ve said I’ve said sincerely.
Interesting comment, as Darwin hasn't come up once! I myself am utterly convinced that Darwinian evolution as currently understood can't possibly account for what we observe in biological systems. So I'm no "advocate of Darwin" either, nor am I a "materialist". Hopefully you'll be in a little less trouble with your colleagues, given I'm really not in the "enemy camp", huh?
This became more apparent when I studied math, and one day the professor said, “these are the axioms of the real number system, like the Apostles creed, they are statements of faith, they are unprovable”. I just about fell out of my chair, but that day made far more sense to me than anything I read in Summa Theologica, because it was a humble admission of our finite abilities to know very much about anything at all. I then learned of Gödel’s Incompleteness and Heisenberg Uncertainty — basically how little we can ever know about anything. I realized how so much of the important concepts in life proceed with some measure of unprovable faith.
Exactly so, and well said. Like I said, we all have unprovable faith in lots of things - we quite literally could not live with it (because so little is "provable"). In a related point, much of what I've seen in the ID movement amounts to co-opting the special certainty of the empirical sciences to justify theistic beliefs. I can certaintly understand the motivation for this, given that people like Dawkins co-opt science to justify anti-theistic beliefs, but I wish people on both "sides" would really value science for how far it goes, and not try to make it go farther than it can. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 1, 2013
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If it doesn’t exist, it can’t receive anything. Can a non-existent catcher receive a pitch? Can a non-existent hostess receive a guest? Can a non-existent dog receive a bath? I’m afraid not.
If you cannot grasp the point that only something that doesn't exist can receive existence, then you are not capable of rational thought.StephenB
June 1, 2013
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SCordova here is obviously quite familiar with the failure of your approach to epistemology, and apparently he is an ID supporter as well. Perhaps you’d be more amenable to being schooled by him instead of me on how wrongheaded your views are. Cheers, RDFish
But that may be a moot point since I've already managed to say something offensive to 90% of my colleagues here UD. If this were face book, I'd have been delisted from people's friends list. :-) You are correct to perceive that StephenB and I would disagree. But I'd prefer not to characterize dialogue as one party "schooling" another. All this to say, I'll pass on picking many more conflicts at UD...I've created enough myself. I'm not trying to play Darwin's advocate in the discussion, everything I've said I've said sincerely. I recall reading through Thomas Aquinas works when I was a teenager (yikes!), and thinking later how meaningless some of the assertions seemed to me. This became more apparent when I studied math, and one day the professor said, "these are the axioms of the real number system, like the Apostles creed, they are statements of faith, they are unprovable". I just about fell out of my chair, but that day made far more sense to me than anything I read in Summa Theologica, because it was a humble admission of our finite abilities to know very much about anything at all. I then learned of Gödel's Incompleteness and Heisenberg Uncertainty -- basically how little we can ever know about anything. I realized how so much of the important concepts in life proceed with some measure of unprovable faith. What I've heard in this thread reminds me of some of the deductive methods of Summa Theologica. As a total aside, now adding a little more on Banach Tarski, Wiki says:
The reason the Banach–Tarski theorem is called a paradox is that it contradicts basic geometric intuition. "Doubling the ball" by dividing it into parts and moving them around by rotations and translations, without any stretching, bending, or adding new points, seems to be impossible, since all these operations preserve the volume, but the volume is doubled in the end.
Not that I had a point, but I just found it amusing. It violates so much mathematical intuition!scordova
June 1, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: First, you rely on the absurd notion that things which do not exist can still do things, such as receive things. If something does not exist, it cannot do anything. SB: You are very confused.
That is always possible! ;-) get it?
Yes, something must already exist to do something. However, a thing that doesn’t exist must receive existence from something else.
You've just contradicted yoursef. If it doesn't exist, it can't receive anything. Can a non-existent catcher receive a pitch? Can a non-existent hostess receive a guest? Can a non-existent dog receive a bath? I'm afraid not.
Unfortunately, you think that something can bring itself into existence, which is, of course, illogical.
Unfortunately, when you get backed into a corner you always decide to pretend I'm saying something I'm not, which is, of course, annoying and dishonest. I never said something can bring itself into existence - you can check the record, it's all right here on this page! - and in fact I pointed out that this would violate the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy!
RDF: Second, your assertion that something can “receive being” sounds like it violates the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. Do you believe that this conservation law can be violated? SB: The Law of Causality does not violate the Law of Conservation of energy.
Well that's a real darn smart argument, there! Who are you, the King of Truth, and what you say goes? How about telling us why you think that if some material thing is caused to exist that did not previously exist this could be consistent with the Law of Conservation?
RDF: I’ve already answered that it is physically impossible, but not logically impossible. Notice how RDF refuses to defend his claim...
What I notice is how rude you get when you're losing a debate. Speak to me, please, instead of about me. And you should be awfully embarassed when you say I refuse to defend a claim that I have successfully defended so many times - and both of the readers here who have spoken up have agreed with me instead of you! Given your remarks, I am even more confident in my assessment of our fundamental difference. You want to believe you can build an absolutely certain understanding of the world from self-evident truths and logic. In this I think you could not possibly be more wrong. You are making the same mistake as the Logical Positivists - read about them and learn! SCordova here is obviously quite familiar with the failure of your approach to epistemology, and apparently he is an ID supporter as well. Perhaps you'd be more amenable to being schooled by him instead of me on how wrongheaded your views are. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 1, 2013
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Hi scordova,
Agreed. To see this, look at Banach Tarksi Paradox
Excellent reference! I'd seen this many years ago - thank you for seeing its relevance!
Clearly it would seem I should be on the ID side of the argument here, but my objection to some of the sweeping statements offered is that they are based on hasty generalizations from our limited sampling of reality.
We haven't even discussed "ID" here yet :-)
One only needs to go a little into math and physics, and soon, ordinary intuitions as to how things ought to operate are often out the window. I don’t feel comfortable making sweeping generalizations. As I said, I’m a bit of an anti-rationalists, more of a brute evidentialist, empiricist, and pragmatist. I have esoteric, unprovable beliefs.
We all have unprovable beliefs. It takes a little courage to see that apparently.
Even if I accept free-will, and first cause, ID, God etc. — I object to the deductive methods. Even if a math theorem is true, I got penalized points on exams if my deductions to the truth were via non-sequiturs.
Indeed!
I firmly believe not all truths cannot be reached via deduction, in fact, the most important truths can only be accepted through faith, and that included the faith acceptance of: 1. logic 2. the notion of ultimate truth 3. God 4. mathematics 5. free will
You and I agree wholeheartedly on everything you said here. Thank you for adding clarity to this discussion! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 1, 2013
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Hi Chance, Thank you for the fun exchange! I appreciated your sincerity. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 1, 2013
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RD
First, you rely on the absurd notion that things which do not exist can still do things, such as receive things. If something does not exist, it cannot do anything.
You are very confused. Yes, something must already exist to do something. However, a thing that doesn't exist must receive existence from something else. That isn't the same thing as "doing something." Unfortunately, you think that something can bring itself into existence, which is, of course, illogical. But, we have been through all that before and, as I have discovered, you are impervious to reason.
Second, your assertion that something can “receive being” sounds like it violates the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. Do you believe that this conservation law can be violated?
The Law of Causality does not violate the Law of Conservation of energy. SB: I think, then, that it is fair to ask you to show how it is, indeed, logically possible–to provide the logical connection between the raw material (splinter) and the finished product (wood beam). RDF:
I’ve already answered that it is physically impossible, but not logically impossible.
Notice how RDF refuses to defend his claim that a splinter can logically morph into a two-by-four and shrinks away from my challenge to explain how it might be possible in that context. Notice also that he disingenuously pretends to have answered the question even as he avoids it. As usual, he hopes that his exercise in misdirection will suffice. SB: That is why I can say boldly and with the utmost confidence that you will not even try to defend you claim. You will either simply repeat it or change the subject.
In my view, I have considered your arguments to the best of my ability, and articulated my objections to each of them.
Notice, again, the misdirection. He is asked to explain his position logically, and he responds by alluding to my position.StephenB
June 1, 2013
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None of these are logical contradictions. They are physical impossibilities – contingent, empirical truths that do not hold in all possible worlds.
Agreed. To see this, look at Banach Tarksi Paradox
A stronger form of the theorem implies that given any two "reasonable" solid objects (such as a small ball and a huge ball), either one can be reassembled into the other. This is often stated colloquially as "a pea can be chopped up and reassembled into the Sun."
And this is in a world of well accepted mathematics. Clearly it would seem I should be on the ID side of the argument here, but my objection to some of the sweeping statements offered is that they are based on hasty generalizations from our limited sampling of reality. One only needs to go a little into math and physics, and soon, ordinary intuitions as to how things ought to operate are often out the window. I don't feel comfortable making sweeping generalizations. As I said, I'm a bit of an anti-rationalists, more of a brute evidentialist, empiricist, and pragmatist. I have esoteric, unprovable beliefs. Even if I accept free-will, and first cause, ID, God etc. -- I object to the deductive methods. Even if a math theorem is true, I got penalized points on exams if my deductions to the truth were via non-sequiturs. I firmly believe not all truths cannot be reached via deduction, in fact, the most important truths can only be accepted through faith, and that included the faith acceptance of: 1. logic 2. the notion of ultimate truth 3. God 4. mathematics 5. free will etc.scordova
June 1, 2013
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