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Failure to Educate? Failure to Persuade.

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Larry Moran replied to my latest post with an admission of failure. He thinks he has failed to educate, but I think rather he is confusing the word ‘persuade’ with the word ‘educate’.

He thinks I am rationalising junk DNA with a pile of ‘what-ifs’. But the fact is that most of my ‘what-ifs’ are already known to have some basis in reality. I am not denying any obvious reality. Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around. Yes, there could also be a great deal of junk. That’s why I have said a number of times that ID is not committed to the idea that there is no junk.

Yet, from my point of view, I see a whole pile of Darwinian/post-Darwinian materialists who have only partly explored the genome, working from an assumption that the genome was not designed, and thus are jumping the gun on the evidence. For example, Larry still seems to think that pseudogenes are of themselves ‘solid evidence’ of broken genes despite the fact that we know that at least some pseudogenes influence the rate of translation of real genes by competing with them; a simple design reason why there should be ‘false genes’ = pseudogenes. Who has explored the rest of them?

From his emotive response to my perfectly valid, albeit speculative suggestions (though they were not plucked out of the air either), I don’t trust this guy to think clearly and calmly about the possibility of design. That’s the real problem.

—-
Edit 12 May 2013:

Larry’s insistence that pseudogene = ‘broken gene’ comes from a particular way of thinking about biology: thinking of it in terms of a historical narrative rather than simply reporting the facts of what we see now. This affects much of what he talks about, but here I am choosing to focus on pseudogenes. The best way to talk science is to first state facts and provide an explanation, and then let the observer make up his mind, having been educated, and then let the observer attempt his own explanation of the facts. Being clear about what are facts, and what are interpretations, aids this, but Larry does not practice this when dealing with ID.

The facts are that we have many false genes (pseudogenes) that look like strikingly like particular real genes, and that some of them are known to be functional, and some of those are known to operate by regulating their corresponding real genes by generating competing transcripts. One possible history that would arrive at these observations is if a real gene was duplicated and then one copy was broken to make the pseudogene, and that some subsequently ‘discovered’ a function by chance. Larry believes this is the only possible explanation. He asserts ‘pseudogenes are broken genes’, as if true by definition. However, it is not the only explanation if one considers design. A designer might well make a false gene to regulate a real gene in this way. Why not? But Larry doesn’t consider design. He doesn’t even look at the possibility. That’s why he doesn’t understand that pseudogenes are not necessarily broken genes, and thus are not evidence for junk.

Larry was rather snide about computer scientists, as if they don’t understand the fundamentals of biology. Hmmm. I am more of a mathematical physicist than a computer scientist, and it seems to me that Larry doesn’t understand that stories/narratives about genes breaking and then discovering new function, are not enough for those looking for a natural (physical) explanation. I want to see hard probabilities. It seems that biologists are too happy with narrative and don’t realise the importance of probabilities. If you don’t know how to estimate probabilities, I am sure people like Doug Axe and the Biologic Institute could help you.

Comments
5for: The reason that impossible candidates like square circles do not and cannot exist is fundamental. Namely, they are such that proposed attributes stand in mutual contradiction. This deeply, inextricably embeds the identity cluster, LOI, LNC and LEM -- remember your little challenge to address such -- in the heart of being and causality. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2013
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Onlookers, for record: As AF full well knows, so long as RDF/AIG behaves in a civil, fairly responsible way, he has little to fear from UD's moderation policy. However, the atmosphere poisoning remark above tees up unjustified accusations of censorship if RDF/AIG crosses that line and refuses to heed warning. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2013
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F/N: Here, from 675 above, is a bit of the agenda of RDF/AIG redux:
I just argue that religious beliefs aren’t knowledge. This doesn’t mean they are false or wrong; it just means we can’t ever reach any sort of consensus on them because there is no way of telling who might be right.
1 --> The fundamental question at stake is not religious, but logical and as logic ties into warrant in the grounding of knowledge, epistemological. 2 --> Consensus, BTW, is NOT a criterion of knowledge but reflects the underlying worldview agendas: relativism that reduces knowledge to the dominant opinion of a time at relevant level, whether among the "experts," or at popular level. 3 --> This immediately surfaces one of the pivotal problems of such relativism: knowledge becomes a political power game, might and manipulation make 'knowledge.' An obvious blunder, one that makes any unpopular circle immediately by definition "anti-knowledge." (Notice the common talking point, "anti-science" reflects this.) The immediate effect is that star-power rules the roost, and the marginalised are dismissed and often denigrated -- all too familiar. And all too utterly, patently fallacious.not everything 4 --> In contrast, and as can easily be examined, a much better understanding is: KNOWLEDGE IS WARRANTED, CREDIBLY TRUE BELIEF. Where the question of warrant attaches to there being good reason to view the relevant beliefs as worthy of trusting as reliable, even if that conclusion may be inherently provisional, and even where degree of support will vary by subject. 5 --> That is, following Greenleaf as already cited (and ignored) who in turn echoes others all the way back to C4 -5 BC, degree of warrant is as appropriate to subject, but should in any case be good enough to confidently base serious decisions on. He who discards such is as Locke's unprofitable servant who complains of want of sunlight when it suits him and refuses to go about his business by adequate candle light. 6 --> In short, I here highlight the fallacy of demanding a double standard in warrant, one for the "popular" school of thought and -- on asserting or implying "extraordinary claim" -- demanding an inappropriately demanding one for that which one is inclined to reject. This is already a case of the fallaciously closed mind, through selective hyperskepticism. 7 --> But, our case here is worse than that. For, the first principles of right reason and the Royce proposition Error exists are DEMONSTRABLY self-evident. That does not suit a star-power system, however as inconvenient and unpopular claims may be seen to have merits. Such must be taken captive and made into hand maidens. 8 --> Which is why -- as is evident above -- there is a tactic of trying to shift their base to being accepted as convention, and it is why there is so much fuss and bother to insert the notion that cause in particular and similarly non-contradiction are suspect notions. No no no, objective or absolute truths ase sooooo INTOLERANT. 9 --> Not at all: that error exists is indeed a notorious consensus, but it is more than that: it is undeniably true as has been demonstrated -- as is studiously ignored. 10 --> Similarly, once there is an identifiable recognisable distinct A in the wider world (e,g. that red cricket ball in the shop case in Davy Hill a few miles from where I write) then we have a world partition: W = { A | NOT-A } with the identity cluster following immediately, LOI, LNC, LEM. Wiki's summary in its article on laws of thought is apt at 101 level:
The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are not separate laws per se, but correlates of the law of identity. That is to say, they are two interdependent and complementary principles that inhere naturally (implicitly) within the law of identity, as its essential nature . . . whenever we ‘identify’ a thing as belonging to a certain class or instance of a class, we intellectually set that thing apart from all the other things in existence which are ‘not’ of that same class or instance of a class. In other words, the proposition, “A is A and A is not ~A” (law of identity) intellectually partitions a universe of discourse (the domain of all things) into exactly two subsets, A and ~A, and thus gives rise to a dichotomy. As with all dichotomies, A and ~A must then be ‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse. In other words, ‘no one thing can simultaneously be a member of both A and ~A’ (law of non-contradiction), whilst ‘every single thing must be a member of either A or ~A’ (law of excluded middle). What’s more . . . thinking entails the manipulation and amalgamation of simpler concepts in order to form more complex ones, and therefore, we must have a means of distinguishing these different concepts. It follows then that the first principle of language (law of identity) is also rightfully called the first principle of thought, and by extension, the first principle reason (rational thought) . . .
11 --> To extend to causality and its cousins, we add the principle of sufficient reason: following Schopemhauer, that if A exists, we may ask why, seeking and expecting a reasonable answer. With the help of a lighted match, the numbers 2, 3 and 5 and the proposition 2 + 3 = 5, as well as the impossibility, a square circle, we see that this leads to:
a: possibility/impossibility of being as alternatives . . . possible beings at least potentially existing, b: the presence of on/off enabling factors for contingent beings -- those that are possible but not necessarily present in all possible worlds, c: the point that a being is possible only if its attributes are coherent (i.e. LNC etc are inextricably entangled with possibility of being), d: hence, attempts to sever LNC etc from cause are wrong-headed and futile, e: that a sufficient cluster of causal factors involving at least all necessary, ON/OFF enabling ones is needed for a contingent being to begin, f: that beings that have no dependence on such enabling factors will be either impossible or actual (like the number 2 etc). Where, this means that: g: Necessary beings exist, are uncaused and have neither beginning nor end. h: Where also, serious candidates to be necessary beings -- flying spaghetti mosters and pink unicorns need not apply -- are going to be either impossible due to incoherence of attributes directly connected to identity, or will be actual. (This last is a well-known consequence in S5.)
12 --> Taken together, these tools provide powerful instruments for evaluating many truth-claims, and are already sweeping away a hay-stack full of many popolar post-/ultra- modern notions regarding worldview issues. 13 --> What about the favourite whipping-boy of today's hyperskeptical age, "religion"? 14 --> This is of course, suspiciously vague and ill-defined. RDF only wants to brush aside whatever can be so tagged and dismiss, as there are allegedly no tools to test and no way to achieve consensus. 15 -->RDF needs to address the tools just identified and other linked ones such as inductive reasoning and inference to the best current explanation, avoidance of bias and fallacies, etc. Not to mention, worldviews analysis on comparative difficulties leading to reasonable faith grounded worldviews. (Cf. toolkit here on.) 16 --> And, on the Faith Tradition he most likely has as target for his animus, I would suggest that the worldview discussion here on, and the historical anchoring here on will prove more robust than he is willing to acknowledge. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2013
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*chuckles* Well, I should have guessed. It'll be interesting to see whether you begin to have problems commenting now, Mr Fish. I'm blaming you for the demise of ARN forum and Telic Thoughts, BTW. ;)Alan Fox
June 17, 2013
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And -- in the face of identified, civilisation foundation-rot -- the dance goes on . . .kairosfocus
June 17, 2013
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Hi FG,
Nice to see you again! I had a feeling you are the same person as aiguy, hence my little word play of saying you’re an intelligent guy – I didn’t want to ‘out’ you but I thought you would get the reference.
And nice to see you too! Thanks for your consideration, but I'm not overly worried that someone will see through my pseudonym to find... my other pseudonym :-)
Yes many of us go back to the ARN days, and we are still discussing the same things years later without much in the way of progress. Which is one of the points you’re making – we just don’t have a way to decisively settle these issues.
So very true. I saw a funny satirical headline once - I think it was on the Onion: "Somebody Actually Changed Their Position After an Internet Debate!".
I am still following the debates from time to time, not in the hope of ever seeing consensus, but because I enjoy reading well crafted arguments, rebuttals, and other people’s thoughts on these Big Questions regardless of my own personal take. I’ll go back to lurking now.
Yeah me too. A lot of times people don't believe me, but I really am very open-minded about what might be true, and don't have an emotional investment in particular answers to these Big Questions. It makes people really mad a lot of times. Cheers, RDFish'll Intelligence Guy :-)RDFish
June 16, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
I’m seeing a lot of words, but not a lot of sense.
Really? I think I've been crystal clear. Which part did you have trouble with? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 16, 2013
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Hi RDFish, Nice to see you again! I had a feeling you are the same person as aiguy, hence my little word play of saying you're an intelligent guy - I didn't want to 'out' you but I thought you would get the reference. Yes many of us go back to the ARN days, and we are still discussing the same things years later without much in the way of progress. Which is one of the points you're making - we just don't have a way to decisively settle these issues. I am still following the debates from time to time, not in the hope of ever seeing consensus, but because I enjoy reading well crafted arguments, rebuttals, and other people's thoughts on these Big Questions regardless of my own personal take. I'll go back to lurking now. Cheers, fGfaded_Glory
June 16, 2013
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Ok, so all you are saying is that some things (like square circles) logically can't exist.5for
June 16, 2013
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Thanks Phinehas. So, for example, have you always had the potential to exist (in your way of thinking about it)?
I've been accused of being a square, but never a square circle, so I am not aware of anything that would necessarily rule out my existence. Also, I find that my existence tends to lend support to the possibility of my being.Phinehas
June 16, 2013
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5For: At this stage I am tired of silly rhetorical gambits games and barbs. You know full well that I have presented a demonstration of a pivotal point that is indeed corrective of widespread errors. I therefore challenge you to successfully dispute the significance of Royce's proposition: Error exists. (Cf. here, onlookers.) Show it false and/or not undeniably true -- thus self evident, or stand branded as trying to poison the well. Then, examine the world partition W = {A |NOT-A} on existence of a distinct A, and undermine LOI, LNC and LEM as not immediately true corollaries. Then, undermine PSR -- if A exists it can be asked and sought as to why -- and its implications possibility/ impossibility of being and contingency/ necessity of being, thence cause as explanation of contingent being. (These are the things you would brush aside without serious engagement.) KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2013
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P: Precisely correct. Possibility of being is Just that; the objectors need to reflect on possible worlds. Attempts to play word games to obfuscate don't change that. Let's give an example: unicorns in the sense of horned horses are obviously possible, and -- just on novelty value -- it is probable such will be actualised within the Century. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2013
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Thanks Phinehas. So, for example, have you always had the potential to exist (in your way of thinking about it)?5for
June 16, 2013
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5for: I'm not familiar with KF's thinking on the matter, but from my perspective, non-existence doesn't become potential existence. If something has the potential to exist, then it has always had the potential to exist. As to how potential existence differs from non-existence, I would point out that some things cannot exist necessarily, such as the square circle. From this perspective, there are two kinds of things that don't exist. Things that do not exist and do not have the potential to exist, and things that do not exist yet have the potential to exist. Again, I'm not sure that KF is using the different terms in this manner, but this is certainly one way of making sense of their use.Phinehas
June 16, 2013
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RDF: I'm seeing a lot of words, but not a lot of sense. Let's try to simplify this even further. Having already agreed that the following is a Big Question: Can a human be very certain that humans have no way of being very certain about the Big Questions? I say, no. What say you?Phinehas
June 16, 2013
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KF, I don't know why you bother sometimes. Unless you actually engage the arguments in a pithy manner and stop trying to "correct" people and commenting on their beliefs/worldviews etc, you won't get responded to. All your history lessons and warnings of apocalyptic futures unless we, (what, all adopt your way of thinking I guess), are jut not that interesting. However I do see you have raised the point about potential existence again. Can you please help me out - at what point does non-existence become potential existence? In other words, how is potential existence any different to non-existence?5for
June 16, 2013
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PS: On yet another strawman problem. No one of significance is saying that worldviews as a whole are proved like mathematical systems. But there are certain key points that are self evident and help keep us from wandering off into the weeds. That is what first principles of right reason are and do. If you are willing to live with scientific and courtroom findings on much the same basis, it is selective hyperskepticism to demand mathematical rigour of worldviews one does not like. It is a strawman fallacy to suggest or imply that serious and informed people who adhere to worldviews you don't like, think they have such grand deductive systems of thought. The fact that I normally stress warrant as opposed to proof, for just one indicator, should be a clue. So should -- SHOULD -- be the discussion of ropes vs chains and cumulative cases. But then, on ever so many excuses, you have insisted on refusing to read. All that does is makes you responsible for what you SHOULD know but refuse to examine.kairosfocus
June 16, 2013
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RDF: Why do you insist on making assertions that have long since been corrected? Do you not realise that drumbeat repetition cannot convert error into truth? For instance, you have made much song and dance against something "receiving" existence, despite repeated correction and explanation. This, in a nutshell means that something which could exist is actualised through a sufficient cluster of causal factors, which must at minimum include all ON/OFF enabling ones. So, for example 150 years ago, your existence was obviously possible, but not actual. Presumably, some decades ago, you were conceived and born, then raised and educated. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that you -- a potential being -- received existence and are today an actual human being. The sort of behaviour you are carrying on with red flags you as an ideologue, unresponsive to facts and reason, multiplied by an attitude of seeking and declaring rhetorical triumphs in the teeth of cogent evidence to the contrary. Indeed, at this point you are reminding me more and more of the academic opponents of Galileo, who were so convinced of their system and so dismissive of Galileo that on one excuse or another they refused to look through his telescope, at Jupiter and its moons, or the Moon,etc. I strongly suggest to you that you need to take a pause and think again about what you have done above and are still continuing to do, for willfully continued misrepresentation is not without grave moral significance. (But then, such seems to be a stock in trade of ever so many champions of evolutionary materialism and its travelling companions.) KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2013
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Hi FG,
In other words, he is of the view that nobody knows how to tell which view is true of the Big Questions. This is totally consistent with my exposition of 1).
Ah, thank you!
As far as I can tell RDFish is an intelligent guy, and I think he has thought these things through a bit more than some here give him credit for.
And thank you for that. Frankly, I don't think that Stephen or Phinehas think I'm not intelligent or knowledgable about these issues; I think it is a very difficult thing to be faced with arguments against deep-seated beliefs, and people have a number of ways of discounting ideas that cause cognitive dissonance. By the way, FG, I knew you back in ARN days too (aiguy). Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 16, 2013
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fG: Pardon, but the problem is self-referential incoherence. That we are limited in our knowledge and are prone to errors is a generally accepted fact. It has long been appreciated, as my cites from Locke and Greenleaf document. Indeed, Plato's parable of the cave is about that. However, there is a very big step from that to the sort of absolutised -- yes, absolutised -- claims RDF is making. And in fact, lo and behold, going back to Josiah Royce, the very reality of error is a pivotal point where we CAN know answers to certain key big questions for certain. Cf. here. Indeed, as I have been trying to get RDF to simply read -- his excuses to not do so have from very early on dipped into outright false accusations of trying to make money and the like (and no, you cannot then pass such off as a joke) -- the Royce proposition, Error exists, is undeniably true, thus self-evident. It is moreover an example of objective truth, of knowledge beyond reasonable doubt and more. This already decisively undercuts several fashionable worldview claims. And yes, that was put on the table from the outset of this long thread, just willfully and repeatedly ignored by RDF, sometimes with resort to well poisoning and worse rhetorical tactics. So, yes, RDF may well have been tutored in the fashionable schools of thought of our time, and the views he asserts are commonly thought of as correct; he probably got his A's on his term papers and more. They are however demonstrably not correct, as has long since been shown -- right from the beginning in what RDF in his confidence that that cannot be so, has refused to read and reflect on. The self-referential incoherence P has highlighted is a sign of just that error. And, given the state of our intellectual culture (due to the dominance of evolutionary materialism, which ENTAILS radical relativisation of knowledge, mind and the denial of genuinely responsible freedom, as Provine pointed out and as Plato warned long before him in The Laws Bk X), that it should embrace and even entrench and defend with heavy cultural artillery certain popular but massively erroneous notions should be no great surprise. Nor should it be a surprise that many, who should know better, will seek accommodation with the wielders of such cultural firepower. It is dangerous indeed to be right when dominant factions of the academy, cultural institutions and the big media houses as well as bureaucratic agencies, law and government alike are wrong. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
I’m not the one who is shockingly confused here.
I didn't say it was shocking! You are just confused, that's all.
Phin: RDF can have no way of telling what is true about whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions.
If you look at what I've said, I said we presently have no way of telling, and not we can have no way of telling what is true. Over and over, I've said we do not know.
RDF: [R]ight – nobody knows if anyone has the right answer now or in the future. We just don’t know.
Uh huh - that's what I've been saying :-)
Above, RDF says that nobody knows the very same thing he just said he was very certain about: Phin: RDF is certain that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. RDF: I feel very certain about this, yes.
This seems so patently clear and obvious to me - what are you thinking? The simple fact of the matter is nobody knows the answers to these questions. That is not contradictory and not complicated and not incoherent. It is apparently upsetting to you, however.
RDF has claimed that both of the following are correct: 1. Nobody knows whether or not humans have a way of telling what is true about the Big Questions.
In other words, we have no good reason to think that anybody knows how to tell what is true about them. Nobody agrees on how we might answer them. It's not like there is some possibility that everybody actually agrees on this and I didn't get the memo, or that maybe there is an air-tight and compelling argument for one answer or another - that is obviously not what I'm saying. I'm saying nobody has any good reason to think that anybody knows the answers to these questions.
2. RDF knows (and is very certain!) that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions.
What I've said I was certain about is that we presently have no way of telling who might be right. In my view, it is likely that nobody is correct: I (and many philososphers too) believe that we are not even asking the right questions regarding free will, creation of the universe, and so on.
These are contradictory statements. Both cannot be true at the same time. Therefore, RDF’s position is incoherent and will remain so until he abandons either (1) or (2) above.
Sorry Phinehas, but this is really silly. You are trying to play some sort of word game, interpreting what I've said as a contradiction. It is like StephenB here giving up on all his arguments then focussing on some dopey strawman about finding citations about philosophers who remarked on his odd way of phrasing "recieving existence". There is no contradiction here. People don't know the answers to these questions, Phinehas, and that is what I'm saying, and rather than trying to argue that people really do have well-supported beliefs about these things, you are trying (not very well) to be clever and claim that I am being incoherent. If you think that I'm wrong, and that anyone actually does have a generally accepted answer to any of the questions I've mentioned, then it behoove you to say so. If any one religious doctrine or metaphysical position has been clearly shown to be true on these questions, why haven't people generally agreed to it? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 16, 2013
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Phinehas, If I may weigh in for a moment? On the face of it you have exposed a contradiction in RDFishes argument by juxtaposing two of his statements. However, think for a moment what the statements actually mean in practice: 1. Nobody knows whether or not humans have a way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. This refers to the actual situation that there are just about as many different and often mutually exclusive views on the Big Questions as there are people expressing them. Clearly there are insufficient arguments for any one of these views compelling enough to convince everybody else of its validity. What does that suggest? It suggests that, even though one of the views may actually be the true one, we don’t actually have a way of identifying which one that is! The net effect of this situation is equivalent to nobody knowing if we have a way of telling which view is true (although sometimes in these debates you get the feeling that everybody knows which view is true – to be specific, their own!). 2. RDFish knows (and is very certain!) that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. In other words, he is of the view that nobody knows how to tell which view is true of the Big Questions. This is totally consistent with my exposition of 1). As far as I can tell RDFish is an intelligent guy, and I think he has thought these things through a bit more than some here give him credit for. fGfaded_Glory
June 16, 2013
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RDF: I'm not the one who is shockingly confused here.
Phin: RDF can have no way of telling what is true about whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions.
RDF: [R]ight – nobody knows if anyone has the right answer now or in the future. We just don’t know.
Above, RDF says that nobody knows the very same thing he just said he was very certain about:
Phin: RDF is certain that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions.
RDF: I feel very certain about this, yes.
RDF has claimed that both of the following are correct: 1. Nobody knows whether or not humans have a way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. 2. RDF knows (and is very certain!) that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. These are contradictory statements. Both cannot be true at the same time. Therefore, RDF's position is incoherent and will remain so until he abandons either (1) or (2) above.Phinehas
June 16, 2013
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PPPS: And another, from Simon Greenleaf, in opening remarks in his Treatise on Evidence, Vol I part I ch 1: _________ >> The word Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or dis-proved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which. excludes all possibility of error, and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction.
[F/N:] 1 See Gambler's Guide to the Study of Moral Evidence, p. 121. Even of mathematical truths, this writer justly remarks, that, though capable of demonstration, they are admitted by most men solely on the moral evidence of general notoriety. For most men are neither able themselves to under-stand mathematical demonstrations, nor have they, ordinarily, for their truth, the testimony of those who do understand them ; but finding them generally believed in the world, they also believe them. Their belief is afterwards confirmed by experience; for whenever there is occasion to apply them, they are found to lead to just conclusions. Id. 196.
Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone ; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not con-sistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and sat-isfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. By competent evidence, is meant that which the very nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the produc-tion of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond reason-able doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man ; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest . . . >> _______________ This of course has to do with courtroom standards, in a foundational work for modern jurisprudence. However, the principles extend far and wide to matters of fact and serious conduct, including -- as the cite from Gambler shows -- practical mathematics, and also science. In his Testimony of the Evangelists, Greenleaf goes on to cite the above and highlights what he called the error of the skeptic, which is selective hyperskepticism:
The error of the skeptic consists in pretending or supposing that there is a difference in the nature of things to be proved; and in demanding demonstrative evidence concerning things which are not susceptible of any other than moral evidence alone, and of which the utmost that can be said is, that there is no reasonable doubt about their truth . . .
Now, let RDF show us reasonable, specific grounds to doubt or dismiss that Error exists is undeniably true, or that by the fact of distinction, we may see that a world partition obtains once there is a generic thing A: W = {A | NOT-A}. Similarly, let his show cause to object that for A to be possible of existence, its attributes must be coherent, i.e that they must not stand in contradiction, similar to how the contradiction of squarishness and circularity renders a square circle an impossible object. Then, let him show on such basis or other, that the law of non-contradiction is not relevant to the possibility of existence of an object, and thence to the principle of sufficient reason, contingent vs non-contingent objects (these last being necessary beings). if he doubts that necessary beings exist let him show cause to reject that 2, i.e. the number, is a necessary being, or that the proposition 2 + 3 = 5 is a necessary being. Then, let him show good reason why we should reject that the lighting of a match does not show us the reality of necessary, enabling ON/OFF causal factors -- here, fuel, heat, oxidiser, and chain reaction. On that strength let him then refute the point that for an object to exist it must be possible and either contingent or necessary, thence if contingent, it has a beginning and is caused, having ON/OFF enabling factors. In that context, then, let him explain and warrant to us how an object with a beginning, B, can have no such enabling factors [E1, E2, . . . En] so that it can arise without cause. Failing such demonstrations by competent ,satisfactory evidence, we may dismiss his assertions above as so much ideological posturing. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2013
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PPS: Here is a real, major voice, Locke speaking in the introduction to his essay on human understanding, Section 5: ________ >> Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 - 21, Eph 4:17 - 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 - 21, Jer. 2:13, Titus 2:11 - 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Text references added to document the sources of Locke's allusions and citations.] >> ____________kairosfocus
June 16, 2013
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PS: Let's see if he can recognise the significance of the rope (vs. chain) principle for building a cumulative worldview case.kairosfocus
June 16, 2013
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F/n: As said, self-referentiality leading to incoherence and self-undermining is a real bear for RDF. Meanwhile, weeks on, RDF is still hurling elephantine lit bluffs appealing to un-named collective authority, while refusing to examine so simple a test case as Josiah Royce's Error exists, cf. here. I am fairly sure that a demonstrable case of undeniable, self-evident, knowable truth is significant and answers to a host of major, fashionable worldview claims -- "big questions" -- that make the one step too far into self-defeating absurdity. (What's interesting is the significance of the point that one of the undeniably certain claims is so humbling: error exists, so a wise thinker will want sound tools for detecting and correcting same -- hence, first principles of right reason.) If RDF then deigns to read on further, he may just find a basis for confidence in first principles of right reason including the identity cluster and the PSR with corollaries. In that context, he may then find a framework for worldview construction on comparative difficulties leading to a reasonable faith. But, I predict, he will ignore, red herring or strawmannise yet again. So, we need to recognise he is simply recirculating talking points and trumpeting claimed rhetorical triumpphs. Sad, but an example of what is going on with ever so many in our generation. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
OK, let’s spell it out.
Great!
1. RDF is certain that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions.
I feel very certain about this, yes.
2. RDF agrees that whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions is itself a Big Question.
Yes - we have no idea how we might answer these questions, even though people have been trying for a very long time.
3. Therefore, RDF can have no way of telling what is true about whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions.
Again, right - nobody knows if anyone has the right answer now or in the future. We just don't know.
RDF has claimed that he, a human, is certain about that which his own claim says that no human can be certain. This is a self-referentially incoherent position for RDF to take.
Wow! You are so confused! Are you somehow not understanding the fact that if one cannot tell if one is certain about something, then... by definition, one is not certain about it?!?!? You think that by pointing out that we have no idea how we can be certain of the Big Questions, that somehow makes our uncertain speculations about the Big Questions certain? That really is the oddest argument I've come across in a while. It's like you think two uncertainties cancel each other out or something. Here it is as simple as it can be, using "free will" as the example Big Question: 1) Nobody knows if we have free will - we have no certainty in any answer to this question 2) Philosophers have thought about this for millenia, including thinking about how we might ever decide the question 3) Nobody is certain about how we might come up with a certain answer this question 4) That means the answer is uncertain!!! It's not like it's a 50-50 chance that somebody actually does know the answer; we just do not know the answer and we do not know how we might go about justifying one belief or another about it. And that is why after thousands of years of debate we are no closer to an answer.
Will he now abandon it?
On the contrary! You all see self-referential paradoxes everywhere they do not exist! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 15, 2013
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OK, let's spell it out. 1. RDF is certain that humans have no way of telling what is true about the Big Questions. 2. RDF agrees that whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions is itself a Big Question. 3. Therefore, RDF can have no way of telling what is true about whether or not a human can tell what is true about the Big Questions. RDF has claimed that he, a human, is certain about that which his own claim says that no human can be certain. This is a self-referentially incoherent position for RDF to take. Will he now abandon it?Phinehas
June 15, 2013
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RDF: Hint, self referentiality is always a bear. KFkairosfocus
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