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Failure to Educate? Failure to Persuade.

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'Junk DNA'
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Larry Moran replied to my latest post with an admission of failure. He thinks he has failed to educate, but I think rather he is confusing the word ‘persuade’ with the word ‘educate’.

He thinks I am rationalising junk DNA with a pile of ‘what-ifs’. But the fact is that most of my ‘what-ifs’ are already known to have some basis in reality. I am not denying any obvious reality. Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around. Yes, there could also be a great deal of junk. That’s why I have said a number of times that ID is not committed to the idea that there is no junk.

Yet, from my point of view, I see a whole pile of Darwinian/post-Darwinian materialists who have only partly explored the genome, working from an assumption that the genome was not designed, and thus are jumping the gun on the evidence. For example, Larry still seems to think that pseudogenes are of themselves ‘solid evidence’ of broken genes despite the fact that we know that at least some pseudogenes influence the rate of translation of real genes by competing with them; a simple design reason why there should be ‘false genes’ = pseudogenes. Who has explored the rest of them?

From his emotive response to my perfectly valid, albeit speculative suggestions (though they were not plucked out of the air either), I don’t trust this guy to think clearly and calmly about the possibility of design. That’s the real problem.

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Edit 12 May 2013:

Larry’s insistence that pseudogene = ‘broken gene’ comes from a particular way of thinking about biology: thinking of it in terms of a historical narrative rather than simply reporting the facts of what we see now. This affects much of what he talks about, but here I am choosing to focus on pseudogenes. The best way to talk science is to first state facts and provide an explanation, and then let the observer make up his mind, having been educated, and then let the observer attempt his own explanation of the facts. Being clear about what are facts, and what are interpretations, aids this, but Larry does not practice this when dealing with ID.

The facts are that we have many false genes (pseudogenes) that look like strikingly like particular real genes, and that some of them are known to be functional, and some of those are known to operate by regulating their corresponding real genes by generating competing transcripts. One possible history that would arrive at these observations is if a real gene was duplicated and then one copy was broken to make the pseudogene, and that some subsequently ‘discovered’ a function by chance. Larry believes this is the only possible explanation. He asserts ‘pseudogenes are broken genes’, as if true by definition. However, it is not the only explanation if one considers design. A designer might well make a false gene to regulate a real gene in this way. Why not? But Larry doesn’t consider design. He doesn’t even look at the possibility. That’s why he doesn’t understand that pseudogenes are not necessarily broken genes, and thus are not evidence for junk.

Larry was rather snide about computer scientists, as if they don’t understand the fundamentals of biology. Hmmm. I am more of a mathematical physicist than a computer scientist, and it seems to me that Larry doesn’t understand that stories/narratives about genes breaking and then discovering new function, are not enough for those looking for a natural (physical) explanation. I want to see hard probabilities. It seems that biologists are too happy with narrative and don’t realise the importance of probabilities. If you don’t know how to estimate probabilities, I am sure people like Doug Axe and the Biologic Institute could help you.

Comments
RDF: With all due respect, to try to appeal to the claimed unsettled debates over the centuries, is ltlle more than a fallacious appeal to modesty in the face of your preferred Magisterium, without assessment of the matter on the merits. If I am as wrong as you infer on the identity cluster tracing to the reality of distinct things, surely, it would be easy to show me wrong. Likewise, if my emphasis on enabling on/off causal factors (usually, necessary factors) is wrong, that too can be shown wrong. Perhaps even by a clip or two from those experts. Otherwise, you are simply hurling an elephant, indulging a superficial bluff by appeal to un-named experts, by way of avoiding coming to grips with a fairly simple matter on the merits. Accordingly, I call your attention back to the matters put on the table in 512 above: ________________ >>Maybe, we can try again. Now, I know you have found every excuse to avoid reading the notes I prepared here on, but I think much of what you have said above reflects that fact, and not to your advantage. I also see where you have managed to tangle up the point SB was making into pretzels, ending in such a confusion that it is wise to start from a different angle, to help see where things have gone wrong. Okay, start with a cricket ball in a shop show case. Not the fancy white ones so often seen these days, but the traditional red, leather bound little fellow. The kind that is usually made in a factory in Pakistan or the like. Let us call it A. Now, let us partition the world, as we stand next to the shop display at that corner in Davy Hill, Montserrat (complete with the fancy white ball sitting next to our traditional one . . . and never mind the fuzziness of the borders of the ball, that is inevitable in the real world, identity is sufficiently distinct, never mind leathern roughness much less quantum effects): W = { A | NOT-A } From that recognition of identity and distinction, we have the classic identity cluster of first principles of right reason standing out as self evidently so. (Discussed in the linked.) Now, zoom in on A: { A | NOT-A } A thing is distinct from that which is not the thing, and the thing cannot be the non-thing as well in the same sense and under the same circumstances. Also, when we believe there is such a thing, A, we cannot at the same time believe there is not A in the same time and sense. Similarly, when we assert that it is there, we must say IS or the like and not imply also IS NOT in the same, sense, time and circumstances etc. Such should be commonplace among educated people, but on long observation -- once the commonly seen quantum confusions (do read the extended discussion) are shown the door -- these are the exact doorways used to try to toss the matter into a confusion. We follow Schopenhauer, and ask: WHY A, seeking an answer. It is at once patent that we may ask such and seek an answer, a sufficient reason for A. Here, the answer has to do with cricket ball factories. But the subtler point is that A depends for its beginning and for its existence on certain enabling, on/off factors, let us say E1, E2 . . . En, and there may be other factors at work that influence the outcome F1, F2, . . Fm. For A to come into being, there must be a SUFFICIENT cluster of factors, including at minimum all of E1 to En. So to say that A was caused is a verbal short hand for that. A contingent being A is possible of existence and for its actualisation has dependencies on enabling factors and it has a beginning, at which point its potential existence is translated into actuality, per the factors at work. In summary of this, we may say that the potential being A received actuality by the application of a sufficient cluster of factors; here, in a FACTOR-y, of all things. Such a short hand way of speaking is reasonable and needs not be belaboured by skeptical debates on fine points. Simply take "A received its being from [certain] causal factors" as a short summary of the above or the like as elaborated. (Other designs for balls -- e.g. a baseball -- were possible, but were not actuated in the factory.) That also brings up another possibility. Some beings are possible and have no dependence on factors like E. Necessary beings, e.g. the truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is such. It had no beginning, cannot come to an end, and is sometimes said to be eternally contemplated in the mind of the ultimate necessary being, God. Where of course, a serious candidate necessary being will not be composite or made of atomic matter or the like [which is already contingent and composite as well as being a basis for composing material entities], and is such that its attributes will be mutually coherent. That is square circles and similar impossible beings need not apply for existence. Immediately, that need for coherence as a ground of possible existence, means that the attempt to sever causality from the laws of identity, non-contradiction and the excluded middle is wrong-headed. Precisely because possibility of being demands coherence of attributes, LNC is inextricably intertwined with causality. To try to construct an argument that depends on their being severed therefore misses the point that all of these are jointly absolutely foundational to reasoning. Indeed, they are all enabling constraining factors on sound reasoning. They are joint, necessary causal factors of such reasoning. Also, that we can ask ands seek an answer to why A is, entails that there is a reason for A, that will be constrained by the LNC etc. Where we have seen that where A is contingent, part of the answer will be that A was caused. A having a beginning is a common indicator of that, as would be A being a composite material entity. Where also such an answer cannot be put up without regard to LNC etc. So, we can start afresh from this point: once we have a thing A, its existence cannot be severed from the identity cluster (per the issue of coherence of attributes), and if it is such that it is contingent, it is caused, where certain causal factors E must be present for A to be. That, again raises the identity cluster. Jointly foundational first principles of right reason cannot be severed the one from the other or excluded from our considerations. Not, if we intend to be reasonable.>> ____________ If you have a good answer on the merits, let us hear it. Otherwise, you are doing little more than appealing to authority blindly, and by virtue of implying that I am a non-entity who can be brushed aside, indulging in a far more serious ad hominem than you are alleging. KFkairosfocus
June 10, 2013
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I apologize for mispelling Phinehas as Phineas.StephenB
June 10, 2013
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RD
You appear to be unable to debate without ad hominem attacks, which means you know you’re losing.
There you go again. We have had enough experience with you to know that you do, indeed, equivocate, build strawmen, manipulate the language, create false impressions, misuse logical symbols, change definitions, ignore correctives, dismiss refutations, misrepresent others' arguments, and, yes, claim to be winning when you are losing. Are we supposed to pretend that these things are not happening? Here is a good example in your interaction with Phineas P:
When discussing whether someone “created” a bomb found in their basement or whether it just “appeared,” the difference would seem pretty obvious to me without making any sort of theological appeal, so I’m totally at a loss as to where you’re coming from.
RDF:
I’m coming from the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. The word “created” does NOT imply GOD or human beings. It just means it wasn’t there at one moment and it was there the next, and it doesn’t say anything at all about how it came to exist.
So here is Phineas summarizing the issue with an easily understood and eminently relevant example that dramatizes an important distinction (a distinction that you should already be aware of to even be qualified for this kind of dialogue) and here you are, as usual, ignoring the principle involved and reverting back to your talking points, completely frustrating his attempts to communicate with you in a rational way. It is far more rude of you to waste our time with this kind of sophistry than it is for us to call you on it. Beginning each correspondence with "Hi" and ending it with "cheers" does not compensate for the disingenuity that goes in the middle part. If you don't like the way you are coming across, change your behavior. Frankly, I don't think you can do it.StephenB
June 10, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
It refers to the idea that the system is closed and that no more matter/energy can be added to it.
Well, the word "created" doesn't actually mean this, no. Rather, this is usually stated explicitly ("In a closed system..."). But yes you are correct, the word "created" here implies simply that no mass/energy can be added to or removed from the universe. It doesn't say anything about whether an "agent" or "God" or "magic" or anything else is responsible - it just says it can't happen!!!
That does not change the fact this same closed system, which is both finite and contingent, had to be brought into existence by an outside agent.
If by "agent" you mean "conscious being", then this is certainly not a "fact". We have no idea how mass/energy came to exist in the universe.
You appear to be incapable of processing the difference between the system and its cause.
You appear to be unable to debate without ad hominem attacks, which means you know you're losing. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 10, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
RDF: Either this mass/energy is being created from nothing or it isn’t. PHINEHAS: Why did you change the wording again? It tends to suggest that you are intentionally equivocating.
First a note to everybody: Everyone here has a terrible tendency to be mean and paranoid, always accusing people of intentionally being irrational, lying, hiding, equivocating, building strawmen, and so on. Believe me - of course you all seem to do all the very same things. The difference is that I understand people think differently, and I'd rather patiently work to try and communicate clearly and understand what you're thinking, rather than accusing you of being insane or dishonest. I'm human too and at some point I'll give in and shoot a zinger or too of course, but as you've seen I'm much happier if you're willing to stick to the debate and leave the insults out of it. Thanks!
There are two very different concepts that you seem intent to conflate. 1. Every effect has a cause. 2. Material cannot be the source of material.
Your (1) might mean two different things (are you intentionally equivocating????? :-) ) First, you might simply mean that the word "effect" means "something with a cause" (but not everything is necessarily an "effect") Second, you might mean that nothing in the universe ever happens without antecedent cause (i.e. everything is an "effect") Which do you mean? No equivocating now!
It seems you want to conflate these in order to support some point you are making, but these really are separate, non-contradictory concepts, notwithstanding strenuous assertions to the contrary.
I don't understand what you mean. Yes these are different concepts - causality and mass/energy. I don't think I conflated them. The point I was making was that the Law of Conservation does not apply to the beginning of the universe - we don't understand anything about how or why the Big Bang happened, and we can't talk about what happens outside of spacetime when none of our concepts apply at all. In order to clear this up, why don't you just explain how you think the mass/energy of the universe came to exist?
RDF: Of course not. The word “create” doesn’t mean anything different from “appear” unless you adopt extra theological connotations. P: Are you even listening to yourself? Please provide some support for this ridiculous assertion.
I have but nobody here can read - or think - apparently. (Stay nice and I will too). Once again: The Law of Conservation says Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed. What do you think that word "created" means in this scientific law? Do you think it refers to conscious agents? No, of course it doesn't.
When discussing whether someone “created” a bomb found in their basement or whether it just “appeared,” the difference would seem pretty obvious to me without making any sort of theological appeal, so I’m totally at a loss as to where you’re coming from.
I'm coming from the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. The word "created" does NOT imply GOD or human beings. It just means it wasn't there at one moment and it was there the next, and it doesn't say anything at all about how it came to exist. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 10, 2013
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RD
Now, I’m sure you’ve seen the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation stated as “Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed”.
Certainly
Do you think the word “created” in that sentence refers to God?
Of course not. It refers to the idea that the system is closed and that no more matter/energy can be added to it. That does not change the fact this same closed system, which is both finite and contingent, had to be brought into existence by an outside agent. You appear to be incapable of processing the difference between the system and its cause.StephenB
June 10, 2013
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This sounds like you believe your choices are caused by your desires (what you most want). Is that correct?
Desire is a longing or a wish for something.I know want can be defined as desire at least in my Oxford it is but desire is not defined as want. I don't think my choices are caused by what I most wish or long for so no I dont think that is correct. Vividvividbleau
June 10, 2013
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Either this mass/energy is being created from nothing or it isn’t.
Why did you change the wording again? It tends to suggest that you are intentionally equivocating. There are two very different concepts that you seem intent to conflate. 1. Every effect has a cause. 2. Material cannot be the source of material. It seems you want to conflate these in order to support some point you are making, but these really are separate, non-contradictory concepts, notwithstanding strenuous assertions to the contrary.
Of course not. The word “create” doesn’t mean anything different from “appear” unless you adopt extra theological connotations.
Are you even listening to yourself? Please provide some support for this ridiculous assertion. When discussing whether someone "created" a bomb found in their basement or whether it just "appeared," the difference would seem pretty obvious to me without making any sort of theological appeal, so I'm totally at a loss as to where you're coming from.Phinehas
June 10, 2013
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PS, 4: I see that SB at least in part of his case, makes the basic point I outlined above yesterday. SB, 337: >> The Law of Causality, like the Law of Non-Contradiction, is not empirical. Each is inextricably tied to the other. An effect is something that begins to be or receives something (being) that it did not have. It can either receive being from itself or from something else. It cannot receive its being from itself because it would it would have had to exist to give being, AND, it would have had to not exist in order to receive being. So, it must receive its being from something else. Thus, its existence depends on a cause. The two laws cannot be separated. To question one is to question the other. >>kairosfocus
June 10, 2013
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PPPS: It is worth noting (per a strawman assertion by RDF at that SB holds that everything has a cause) that the principle of sufficient reason distinguishes that which is contingent and caused from that which is necessary and so not caused. As is explained in the same notes that RDF refuses to read.kairosfocus
June 10, 2013
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PPS: The tangents and recirculation to already adequately answered (but ignored) matters continue. The law of conservation of mass and energy speak to the experienced world as a going concern, one in which we have space-time and mass-energy acting in accordance with its laws. Such does not apply to the circumstances of the creation or beginning of said world. Where also, it is a commonplace that Physics discusses what happens subsequent to the singularity [aka big bang initiation event], as that is a horizon we cannot cross. This is a part of the context in which multiverse speculations are phil not phys, as we have no empirical controls on discussion. So, I must note that insistent drumbeat repetition of flawed notions in the teeth of previous correction does not transform them into sound points.kairosfocus
June 10, 2013
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PS: Above, you speak in terms of possibilities of LNC, LOI and LEM not holding, and dismiss in a way that hints at subjectivism. It is not enough that you agree, the matter is that once a distinct thing, A exists, we have the partition: W = { A | NOT-A } from which the three principles in the identity cluster immediately follow. Moreover, you ignore the issue that for a thing A to be possible, its set of attributes must be coherent, i.e LNC is implicit in possibility of existence and so cannot be severed from actuality of existence. This includes existence of that which is contingent on external enabling factors, and so is caused. When we are dealing with truly foundational matters, that is how things will be. Once a thing A exists, it has its own identity, it cannot be what it is and something else under one and the same sense and circumstances [I deliberately do not refer to time there], and the dichotomy that marks the distinction A not NON-A excludes being neither or both, per the Ex-OR principle. That cannot be escaped. Nor is this (as you suggested above, muddying waters as usual . . . ) circularity in reasoning, we are speaking of an ontological reality in the first instance, which our beliefs and reasoning -- when done right -- reflect.kairosfocus
June 10, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
Sorry, we are talking about your argument. You need to present a rational argument in defense of your claim that LoC cannot be derived from LNC. Your first try failed. Why not try another?
HUH? IT IS YOUR ARGUMENT THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING. YOU MADE THE CLAIM THAT THE LoC DERIVES FROM THE LNC!!! You provided an argument intended to show that the LoC derives from the LNC. Now, I just took that original argument and tore it open line by line. If you want to try and defend your argument, show us where I'm wrong. But you can't, of course, because I'm not wrong - your argument fails simply because you assume the LoC in order to derive it! And here's the "keeper": You pick one sentence and toss off a drive-by unsupported dismissal, but skip the hard part:
Now, I’m sure you’ve seen the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation stated as “Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed”. Do you think the word “created” in that sentence refers to God? Do you think the law only prohibits a creator from creating mass/energy, while if mass/energy appears from nothing, it’s ok? Of course not.
Come on - you can do better than that, no? Really? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 10, 2013
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RDF: Pardon -- and I know that you are wont to ignore this so I speak for record, do you understand that creation ex nihilo has a specific, high-context meaning? One, that, taken out of context, easily leads to a strawman caricature and confusion? That context is that in the ANE and in Greek culture, there was a concept of primordial matter (sometimes the body parts of a slain god, sometimes, just that primordial) that was re-worked -- often, on the account, imperfectly and foolishly -- to form the world in which we live. Hence on that sort of account, the mess we live in. BTW, in this context, a more apt summary was that we live in the SUMP of the cosmos, not the centre, which has a more positive connotation. The Judaeo- Christian teaching is that -- in utter contrast -- we come by creation from a necessary being who is immaterial and minded, who voluntarily calls the material cosmos into being without resort to primordial matter. And the first step in that process is oddly modern, creation of energy, with an emphasis on light. So, atomic matter, the familiar stuff doubly does not come from that which is primordially material. In that context, the point is that Creation Ex Nihilo does not mean, origin from nothing, which -- as you would learn from the notes you still refuse to read -- means non-being. Aristotle's definition is apt, once we see that rocks do not dream: nothing is that which rocks dream of. Instead, we have creation by God, the root cause of being. God, who has no causal dependence on enabling factors and has no beginning, no end, i.e. he is eternal mind. It is worth tossing in another point where today's atheists and materialists are ever so apt to go off the rails. God, as a serious candidate necessary being, is either impossible or actual (again, discussed in those notes you are ever so eager not to read). The commitment to materialism or another species of atheism is a commitment to the impossibility -- not merely improbability per one's perceptions and notions -- of God. (That is one reason why, formerly, the problem of evil was so popular for atheists, until Plantinga's free will defense fatally undermined it. Cf notes on on the relevant problem, good and evil, here.) KFkairosfocus
June 10, 2013
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RD
Of course not. The word “create” doesn’t mean anything different from “appear” unless you adopt extra theological connotations.
Another keeper.StephenB
June 9, 2013
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RD
The argument you are making is that the LoC can be derived from the LNC (in the way, for example, the Law of the Excluded Middle can indeed be derived from the LNC).
Sorry, we are talking about your argument. You have already misinterpreted, reframed, and mischaracterized my argument for days on end. So, changing the subject back to that dreary episode will not help you. You need to present a rational argument in defense of your claim that LoC cannot be derived from LNC. Your first try failed. Why not try another?
This is actually pretty interesting. You all seem to have this idea about what “creation ex nihilo” means and how it is different from, I assume, “appearing ex nihilo“
. We will be keeping this one for the archives.StephenB
June 9, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
Surely you can see the difference between something coming from nothing and something being created out of nothing.
This is actually pretty interesting. You all seem to have this idea about what "creation ex nihilo" means and how it is different from, I assume, "appearing ex nihilo". Now, I'm sure you've seen the Law of Mass/Energy Conservation stated as "Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed". Do you think the word "created" in that sentence refers to God? Do you think the law only prohibits a creator from creating mass/energy, while if mass/energy appears from nothing, it's ok? Of course not. The word "create" doesn't mean anything different from "appear" unless you adopt extra theological connotations.
The first is a statement about a thing not having a source. Obviously, whatever has been created had a source in whatever created it, so the second statement can not be about a thing’s source. Instead, it is a statement about the fact that no outside resources are available for the source to use in the act of creating a thing.
This seems utterly contradictory. Either this mass/energy is being created from nothing or it isn't. If there is something (God) doing the creating, that means it isn't being created from nothing - it is being created from God's mind, or His words, or whatever it is that God uses to make things. Really, it's the same problem that physicists have when they say the universe can appear out of nothing because nothing is unstable. It's not nothing if the laws of physics already make nothing unstable.
Stephen is right in that the difference could hardly be clearer.
I actually think it's quite confused. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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Hi Vividbleau,
RDF: I don’t understand your point. You are being a bit laconic or coy here, Vivid, and it makes it onerous to figure out what you think. VB: My point should be obvious.
I quite agree! Please do try and make your points obvious in the future! :-)
You called a technical foul if that makes your day have at it. I find it weak.
From your and Stephen's response I see what happened here. In your minds, the phrase "creation ex-nihilo is so deeply associated with theistic connotation that you simply can't see that it has a meaning quite apart from that. As I told Stephen, The Law of Conservation is usually stated "Mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed". The verb "create" here does not refer to any divine act of creation - it only means "come into being".
I can only tell you what I think causes my choices what you think causes your choices you will have to tell me. What is the cause of my choices is what I most want to choose at the time the choice is made given the available options available to me at the time the choice is made. How about you?
What is the cause of my choices is what I most want to choose
This sounds like you believe your choices are caused by your desires (what you most want). Is that correct? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
I understand you attempted argument very well. It makes absolutely no sense. It begins by assuming that LNC and LoC are not connected and proceeds to the same inevitable conclusion. You really do need to read kairosfocus’ presentation about the connection between LNC and LoC. You really should.
This is funny!!! What is actually happening is that you are assuming the validity of the LoC in order to prove that the LoC follows from the LNC! Ok, let's get to the bottom of this. The argument you are making is that the LoC can be derived from the LNC (in the way, for example, the Law of the Excluded Middle can indeed be derived from the LNC). Here is your argument, line by line:
An effect is something that begins to be or receives something (being) that it did not have.
Here you very obviously treat existence as a predicate, a logical error. But we're going to set that aside to see how wrong the rest of the argument is.
It can either receive being from itself or from something else.
You left out the third logical possibility, which is that it can pop into existence without any cause at all.
It cannot receive its being from itself because it would it would have had to exist to give being, AND, it would have had to not exist in order to receive being. So, it must receive its being from something else.
No, this is a false dichotomoy, because you have left out the third option: It could be uncaused. This is why I say you are assuming the validity of the LoC in order to derive it!
Thus, its existence depends on a cause.
No, it might not depend on a cause. You are simply assuming that it has a cause, because you've assumed the LoC! This is why I say its existence either depends on a cause or it doesn't. Unless you assume LoC, then LNC does not tell you everything must have a cause!!
The two laws cannot be separated. To question one is to question the other.
Completely wrong. The LNC is correct, but you cannot derive the LoC from it.
You said something coming from nothing is called creation ex-nilio, which is spectacularly wrong. Something coming from nothing means without a creator and without a cause. That isn’t what exnilio creation means. To create out of nothing is to be the cause of the creation.
Oh, brother. You are telling me that my interpretation of "creation ex nihilo" is not just wrong but spectacularly so. In fact, my interpretation is perfectly accurate - it is you who are implicitly packing a bunch of theological asssumptions into the simple word "creation". The Law of Conservation is usually stated "Mass/Energy can neither be created nor destroyed". Get it? Lots of things are created - impact craters, hurricanes, lightning bolts - without some conscious super-being creating them. So saying "creation ex nihilo" does not imply anything about God - it just means something pops into existence from nothing.
You are saying that something that was caused is the same as something that was not caused.
No, I'm saying that if mass/energy is created ex-nihilo, it violates the law that says mass/energy cannot be created ex-nihilo. This one really is as simple as it looks.
You say a lot of irrational things like that.
Manners, Stephen. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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You very clearly said that something coming from nothing violates LNC. That is precisely what “creation ex nihilo” means.
Surely you can see the difference between something coming from nothing and something being created out of nothing. The first is a statement about a thing not having a source. Obviously, whatever has been created had a source in whatever created it, so the second statement can not be about a thing's source. Instead, it is a statement about the fact that no outside resources are available for the source to use in the act of creating a thing. Stephen is right in that the difference could hardly be clearer.Phinehas
June 9, 2013
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I don’t understand your point. You are being a bit laconic or coy here, Vivid, and it makes it onerous to figure out what you think.
My point should be obvious. I stated that it seems to me to get something from nothing violates the LNC. I said nothing about creation ex nihilo. The next thing I know you are claiming I hold to the position that creation ex nihilo violates the LNC. One thing your not is stupid and technically you are correct ex nihilo means out of nothing but you very well know how that term has been used historically.You called a technical foul if that makes your day have at it. I find it weak.
If you wished to actually take some sort of position on the matter, you would need to start by explaining what it is that you think causes our choices. Perhaps you mean a will or volition or res cogitans, or perhaps you think our choices are caused the same way the rest of what we observe is caused (physical causation). Would you care to share your thinking on the matter?
I can only tell you what I think causes my choices what you think causes your choices you will have to tell me. What is the cause of my choices is what I most want to choose at the time the choice is made given the available options available to me at the time the choice is made. How about you? Vividvividbleau
June 9, 2013
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RD
1) LNC is false and LoC is true 2) LNC is false and LoC is false
I understand you attempted argument very well. It makes absolutely no sense. It begins by assuming that LNC and LoC are not connected and proceeds to the same inevitable conclusion. You really do need to read kairosfocus' presentation about the connection between LNC and LoC. You really should. "To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo."
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha – stop, you’re killin’ me.
You are killing yourself with irrational statements. The laugh is on you.
I didn’t say anything about GOD creating anything! I said “To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo.
I know what you said. You said something coming from nothing is called creation ex-nilio, which is spectacularly wrong. Something coming from nothing means without a creator and without a cause. That isn't what exnilio creation means. To create out of nothing is to be the cause of the creation. You are saying that something that was caused is the same as something that was not caused. You say a lot of irrational things like that.StephenB
June 9, 2013
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Hi Vivid,
RDF: You haven’t said enough here for me to understand your position. VB: Whats so difficult? I dont think human choices are uncaused.
If you wished to actually take some sort of position on the matter, you would need to start by explaining what it is that you think causes our choices. Perhaps you mean a will or volition or res cogitans, or perhaps you think our choices are caused the same way the rest of what we observe is caused (physical causation). Would you care to share your thinking on the matter?
RDF: You very clearly said that something coming from nothing violates LNC. That is precisely what “creation ex nihilo” means. VB: Weak
I don't understand your point. You are being a bit laconic or coy here, Vivid, and it makes it onerous to figure out what you think.
RDF: So while we say the Laws of Logic remain true always, we should also observe that our thinking (based on these laws) is not consistent with what happens in the context of quantum physics. VB: I will repeat myself, “it is one thing to say that electrons behave in a certain way for uncertain reasons. It is another thing to say they behave in a certain way for no reason.
I think it would be more accurate to say that physics does not identify causes for certain observable events, but can still provably predict these results with perfect accuracy and incredible precision. Moreover, it has been proven that even if certain quantum events did have causes that physics currently does not recognize, these causes could not obey two fundamental principles that we accept implicitly, namely locality and realism.
Furthermore for me I don’t particularly care what the so called empirical observations are because if the observations are at odds with the LNC then they don’t have the full picture.
It's certain that we do not have "the full picture". What we do know, however, is that whatever the full picture is, it cannot obey locality and realism.
Really I consider it arrogance because it presupposes an attribute that no scientist or anyone else has. It presupposes omniscience.”
I actually haven't seen anyone presupposing that scientists are omniscient :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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You haven’t said enough here for me to understand your position.
Whats so difficult? I dont think human choices are uncaused.
You very clearly said that something coming from nothing violates LNC. That is precisely what “creation ex nihilo” means.
Weak :)
So while we say the Laws of Logic remain true always, we should also observe that our thinking (based on these laws) is not consistent with what happens in the context of quantum physics.
I will repeat myself, "it is one thing to say that electrons behave in a certain way for uncertain reasons. It is another thing to say they behave in a certain way for no reason. Furthermore for me I don’t particularly care what the so called empirical observations are because if the observations are at odds with the LNC then they don’t have the full picture.Really I consider it arrogance because it presupposes an attribute that no scientist or anyone else has. It presupposes omniscience." Vividvividbleau
June 9, 2013
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Hi Vivid,
I agree with you I thought I made that clear when I wrote “Admittedly the LOC doesnt tell us if there are really such things as causes or if there are really such things as effects. What it does tell us is that if there are causes those causes must have effects, and if there are effects those effects must have causes.”
Again, I was trying to make clear that these things are true merely by definition, and not because they are facts derived logically or empirically somehow.
I don’t think that human choices are uncaused.
You haven't said enough here for me to understand your position.
RDFish I’m sorry where did I state that creation ex nihilo violates the LNC?
Here is what you said @496:
For something to come from nothing seems to me to violate the LNC.
Like you I don’t appreciate posters putinng words in my mouth. I will try as well to not mistate things you have not said as well.
You very clearly said that something coming from nothing violates LNC. That is precisely what "creation ex nihilo" means. You likely interpret this phrase to mean something else, based on other theological assumptions, but that is all beyond the dictionary definition of the term. So no, I have not put a single word into your mouth (apology accepted in advance :-))
Thats good to know unfortunately quantum physics has been used often as a demonstration that the laws of logic don’t apply in the quantum world.
I would say it differently. Laws of Logic are true because the way we think relies on them. However, the way we think does not capture the reality of quantum effects. So while we say the Laws of Logic remain true always, we should also observe that our thinking (based on these laws) is not consistent with what happens in the context of quantum physics. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: 2) However, the LoC may be true or false regardless of the truth of the LNC SB: No, the truth of one cannot be independent from the truth of other and I have shown why.
You gave one supporting argument, which was based, in my view, on the logical error of treating existence as a predicate. We could not come to an agreement on that aspect of the debate, and so I changed my argument. My argument against LNC => LoC now has nothing to do with using existence as a predicate; rather, my argument is the LNC simply does not imply LoC because LNC does not imply any notion of causality at all.
You can hardly make your case by saying, “Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that my case is true,” which is exactly what you are doing. RDF: 3) For example, let’s say LNC is true but LoC is false because at least some things happen that are uncaused. SB: Why should I assume something that isn’t possible. If I begin with a false premise, I will certainly end up with a false conclusion. That is what you are doing.
I still haven't been clear enough I see. Let us consider all four cases: 1) LNC is false and LoC is true 2) LNC is false and LoC is false Denying the LNC obviously makes any other reasoning impossible. We all agree the LNC is true so let us not try to consider these two conjunctions. 3) LNC is true and LoC is true This is what you believe is invariably correct, and moreover you believe that given LNC, LoC logically follows 4) LNC is true and LoC is false (i.e. there are exceptions to causality) You deny this conjuction, because you believe LNC=>LoC. However, I see no logical contradiction between LNC and NOT LoC. If you argue along the lines of "something that begins to exist must either be self-caused or other-caused", then you are simply assuming that LoC is true rather than demonstrating it. Without that assumption, there remains the possibility that something can begin to exist (or move or whatever) without any cause at all.
RDF: To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo. SB: That is an astonishingly false statement,...
Hahahahahahahahaha. Looky here:
Ex nihilo is a Latin phrase meaning "out of nothing". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_nihilo
Every other reference gives the same meaning of course. Gee, there are a lot of astonishingly false statements out there regarding this latin phrase, huh? :-)
...but I am glad that you made it since it highlights the fact that you are conflating two things that are nowhere near being the same. For something to come from God, who created it out of nothing is, by no means, the same as something coming from nothing. God is not nothing.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - stop, you're killin' me. I didn't say anything about GOD creating anything! I said "To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo. And you yourself quoted me!!!! Oooh, now we're talking "astonishingly false" all right! :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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How twerdun -- cricket ball.kairosfocus
June 9, 2013
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CR: Thanks, I have and use all three, though I use Libre Office form of OO. Abi gives a nice clean simple text -- e.g. no curly quotes -- with additional features. I dumped the old copy and reloaded from ground up, let's see if there is a fix. KF PS: SB, Thanks, I hope the lateral thinking approach helps.kairosfocus
June 9, 2013
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kairosfocus, Excellent presentation above!!StephenB
June 9, 2013
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RDF Maybe, we can try again. Now, I know you have found every excuse to avoid reading the notes I prepared here on, but I think much of what you have said above reflects that fact, and not to your advantage. I also see where you have managed to tangle up the point SB was making into pretzels, ending in such a confusion that it is wise to start from a different angle, to help see where things have gone wrong. Okay, start with a cricket ball in a shop show case. Not the fancy white ones so often seen these days, but the traditional red, leather bound little fellow. The kind that is usually made in a factory in Pakistan or the like. Let us call it A. Now, let us partition the world, as we stand next to the shop display at that corner in Davy Hill, Montserrat (complete with the fancy white ball sitting next to our traditional one . . . and never mind the fuzziness of the borders of the ball, that is inevitable in the real world, identity is sufficiently distinct, never mind leathern roughness much less quantum effects): W = { A | NOT-A } From that recognition of identity and distinction, we have the classic identity cluster of first principles of right reason standing out as self evidently so. (Discussed in the linked.) Now, zoom in on A: { A | NOT-A } A thing is distinct from that which is not the thing, and the thing cannot be the non-thing as well in the same sense and under the same circumstances. Also, when we believe there is such a thing, A, we cannot at the same time believe there is not A in the same time and sense. Similarly, when we assert that it is there, we must say IS or the like and not imply also IS NOT in the same, sense, time and circumstances etc. Such should be commonplace among educated people, but on long observation -- once the commonly seen quantum confusions (do read the extended discussion) are shown the door -- these are the exact doorways used to try to toss the matter into a confusion. We follow Schopenhauer, and ask: WHY A, seeking an answer. It is at once patent that we may ask such and seek an answer, a sufficient reason for A. Here, the answer has to do with cricket ball factories. But the subtler point is that A depends for its beginning and for its existence on certain enabling, on/off factors, let us say E1, E2 . . . En, and there may be other factors at work that influence the outcome F1, F2, . . Fm. For A to come into being, there must be a SUFFICIENT cluster of factors, including at minimum all of E1 to En. So to say that A was caused is a verbal short hand for that. A contingent being A is possible of existence and for its actualisation has dependencies on enabling factors and it has a beginning, at which point its potential existence is translated into actuality, per the factors at work. In summary of this, we may say that the potential being A received actuality by the application of a sufficient cluster of factors; here, in a FACTOR-y, of all things. Such a short hand way of speaking is reasonable and needs not be belaboured by skeptical debates on fine points. Simply take "A received its being from [certain] causal factors" as a short summary of the above or the like as elaborated. (Other designs for balls -- e.g. a baseball -- were possible, but were not actuated in the factory.) That also brings up another possibility. Some beings are possible and have no dependence on factors like E. Necessary beings, e.g. the truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is such. It had no beginning, cannot come to an end, and is sometimes said to be eternally contemplated in the mind of the ultimate necessary being, God. Where of course, a serious candidate necessary being will not be composite or made of atomic matter or the like [which is already contingent and composite as well as being a basis for composing material entities], and is such that its attributes will be mutually coherent. That is square circles and similar impossible beings need not apply for existence. Immediately, that need for coherence as a ground of possible existence, means that the attempt to sever causality from the laws of identity, non-contradiction and the excluded middle is wrong-headed. Precisely because possibility of being demands coherence of attributes, LNC is inextricably intertwined with causality. To try to construct an argument that depends on their being severed therefore misses the point that all of these are jointly absolutely foundational to reasoning. Indeed, they are all enabling constraining factors on sound reasoning. They are joint, necessary causal factors of such reasoning. Also, that we can ask ands seek an answer to why A is, entails that there is a reason for A, that will be constrained by the LNC etc. Where we have seen that where A is contingent, part of the answer will be that A was caused. A having a beginning is a common indicator of that, as would be A being a composite material entity. Where also such an answer cannot be put up without regard to LNC etc. So, we can start afresh from this point: once we have a thing A, its existence cannot be severed from the identity cluster (per the issue of coherence of attributes), and if it is such that it is contingent, it is caused, where certain causal factors E must be present for A to be. That, again raises the identity cluster. Jointly foundational first principles of right reason cannot be severed the one from the other or excluded from our considerations. Not, if we intend to be reasonable. KFkairosfocus
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