Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Failure to Educate? Failure to Persuade.

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'Junk DNA'
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Larry Moran replied to my latest post with an admission of failure. He thinks he has failed to educate, but I think rather he is confusing the word ‘persuade’ with the word ‘educate’.

He thinks I am rationalising junk DNA with a pile of ‘what-ifs’. But the fact is that most of my ‘what-ifs’ are already known to have some basis in reality. I am not denying any obvious reality. Indeed, the basic machinery of life looks like design, far more than when Paley was around. Yes, there could also be a great deal of junk. That’s why I have said a number of times that ID is not committed to the idea that there is no junk.

Yet, from my point of view, I see a whole pile of Darwinian/post-Darwinian materialists who have only partly explored the genome, working from an assumption that the genome was not designed, and thus are jumping the gun on the evidence. For example, Larry still seems to think that pseudogenes are of themselves ‘solid evidence’ of broken genes despite the fact that we know that at least some pseudogenes influence the rate of translation of real genes by competing with them; a simple design reason why there should be ‘false genes’ = pseudogenes. Who has explored the rest of them?

From his emotive response to my perfectly valid, albeit speculative suggestions (though they were not plucked out of the air either), I don’t trust this guy to think clearly and calmly about the possibility of design. That’s the real problem.

—-
Edit 12 May 2013:

Larry’s insistence that pseudogene = ‘broken gene’ comes from a particular way of thinking about biology: thinking of it in terms of a historical narrative rather than simply reporting the facts of what we see now. This affects much of what he talks about, but here I am choosing to focus on pseudogenes. The best way to talk science is to first state facts and provide an explanation, and then let the observer make up his mind, having been educated, and then let the observer attempt his own explanation of the facts. Being clear about what are facts, and what are interpretations, aids this, but Larry does not practice this when dealing with ID.

The facts are that we have many false genes (pseudogenes) that look like strikingly like particular real genes, and that some of them are known to be functional, and some of those are known to operate by regulating their corresponding real genes by generating competing transcripts. One possible history that would arrive at these observations is if a real gene was duplicated and then one copy was broken to make the pseudogene, and that some subsequently ‘discovered’ a function by chance. Larry believes this is the only possible explanation. He asserts ‘pseudogenes are broken genes’, as if true by definition. However, it is not the only explanation if one considers design. A designer might well make a false gene to regulate a real gene in this way. Why not? But Larry doesn’t consider design. He doesn’t even look at the possibility. That’s why he doesn’t understand that pseudogenes are not necessarily broken genes, and thus are not evidence for junk.

Larry was rather snide about computer scientists, as if they don’t understand the fundamentals of biology. Hmmm. I am more of a mathematical physicist than a computer scientist, and it seems to me that Larry doesn’t understand that stories/narratives about genes breaking and then discovering new function, are not enough for those looking for a natural (physical) explanation. I want to see hard probabilities. It seems that biologists are too happy with narrative and don’t realise the importance of probabilities. If you don’t know how to estimate probabilities, I am sure people like Doug Axe and the Biologic Institute could help you.

Comments
KF, sorry to hear you lost a doc! That's almost always bad. Perhaps some auto recovery option exists in Abi. FYI, here's another free office suite to add to the list: Kingsoft Office 2013. And then of course there is the always helpful and free Open Office Suite.Chance Ratcliff
June 9, 2013
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RDFish: "To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo." That is an astonishingly false statement, but I am glad that you made it since it highlights the fact that you are conflating two things that are nowhere near being the same. For something to come from God, who created it out of nothing is, by no means, the same as something coming from nothing. God is not nothing.StephenB
June 9, 2013
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Thanks Chance!!! Vividvividbleau
June 9, 2013
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Vivid, I think these statements are tautologically true by definition. What is a cause? Something that makes something happen. What is an effect? Something that happens as a result of something else. So all this is simply definitional – all causes have effects and all effects have causes. This is like saying all bachelors are unmarried men – it’s just true by virtue of the definition of “bachelor”.
I agree with you I thought I made that clear when I wrote "Admittedly the LOC doesnt tell us if there are really such things as causes or if there are really such things as effects. What it does tell us is that if there are causes those causes must have effects, and if there are effects those effects must have causes."
The questions remaining are: * Is everything that happens an effect, or are some things uncaused? Libertarianism requires that human choices are uncaused, which violates causality. I do not know if libertarianism is true, and nobody else does either.
I don't think that human choices are uncaused.
To say “something coming from nothing” is called creation ex nihilo. StephenB claims that the mass/energy of the universe was created ex nihilo. You think that creation ex nihilo would violate the LNC. I think it violates the Law of Causality. Stephen thinks it doesn’t violate either one!!
RDFish I'm sorry where did I state that creation ex nihilo violates the LNC? Like you I don't appreciate posters putinng words in my mouth. I will try as well to not mistate things you have not said as well.I am with Stephen I dont think it violates either one.
Not sure what you mean regarding quantum physics, really. I would say it is perfectly clear that we do not “have the full picture” of quantum events! We have the math, but nobody can conceptually grasp what is going on with these weird phenomena.
Thats good to know unfortunately quantum physics has been used often as a demonstration that the laws of logic don't apply in the quantum world. Vividvividbleau
June 9, 2013
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CR thanks, I just lost something to a glitch in Abi Word, combox is like molasses for me now. KFkairosfocus
June 9, 2013
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RD
2) However, the LoC may be true or false regardless of the truth of the LNC
No, the truth of one cannot be independent from the truth of other and I have shown why. You say it is possible, but you need to argue for your point. You can hardly make your case by saying, "Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that my case is true," which is exactly what you are doing.
3) For example, let’s say LNC is true but LoC is false because at least some things happen that are uncaused.
Why should I assume something that isn't possible. If I begin with a false premise, I will certainly end up with a false conclusion. That is what you are doing.
There is no logical contradiction – this does not violate the LNC.
I have made the case for the inseparability of the LoC and the LNC. So has vividbleau. So has kairosfocus. You have not made your case against it.StephenB
June 9, 2013
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vividbleau, here's the exact syntax: <blockquote>Text</blockquote> produces
Text
This also works with a few other tags: <strong>Strong Text</strong> produces Strong Text <em>Emphasized Text</em> produces Emphasized Text <strike>Strikethrough Text</strike> produces Strikethrough TextChance Ratcliff
June 9, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: if LNC is true, then something beginning to exist may be caused or not caused SB: First, notice that the statement is too imprecise to even be associated with the LNC, which says that a thing cannot be what is is and what it is not at the same time in in the same sense.
I'm not "associating" LNC with the rest of the statement, Stephen. Just look at the logic: 1) We take as a true premise the exclusive disjunction "something beginning to exist may be caused XOR not caused" 2) Since for any Q, P => IF Q THEN P, we can say any number of true statements like this: LET X = "something beginning to exist may be caused XOR not caused" GIVEN: X IS TRUE This implies: - IF PIGS CAN FLY THEN X IS TRUE - IF PIGS CANNOT FLY THEN X IS TRUE - IF THE LNC IS TRUE THEN X IS TRUE and so on. Thus we have my statement, IF LNC is true THEN something beginning to exist may be caused XOR not caused I must also point out that you are insisting the the LNC be stated with the qualifier "at the same time". This doesn't affect my argument at all, but it does again point out that these laws all require the concept of time to make sense, which means none of them make sense outside of the context of spacetime!
So, you left those crucial words out in order to make your ridiculous proposition seem plausible.
You misunderstand my argument completely. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Let me try it again. 1) You claim that the LNC logically implies the LoC. In other words, if we accept the LNC we must logically accept the LoC. 2) However, the LoC may be true or false regardless of the truth of the LNC 3) For example, let's say LNC is true but LoC is false because at least some things happen that are uncaused. There is no logical contradiction - this does not violate the LNC. 4) Therefore your claim that LNC => LoC is false Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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Hi Vivid
But we must do so recognizing that these are indeed complex issues and we need to treat them from a position of humility not certainty.
Hear, hear!
Furthermore I think there is a danger to slip into what KF terms the “fallacy of hyperskepticism”
I agree about hyperskepticism, and reject that I indulge in that in the least (selectively or not). It is not hyperskeptical at all to doubt that mankind has found true answers to ancient philosophical questions of origins, mind/body ontology, free will, epistemology, moral theory, and so on. How can anyone think that certainty is available to us on these issues when nothing remotely approaching a consensus has ever been reached in millenia of debate, and even people within one particular religion (e.g. Christianity) disagree strongly about many of these issues?
Regarding the law of causality and its relationship with the LNC I do think that the LOC is a logical extension of the LNC. Admittedly the LOC doesnt tell us if there are really such things as causes or if there are really such things as effects. What it does tell us is that if there are causes those causes must have effects, and if there are effects those effects must have causes.
Vivid, I think these statements are tautologically true by definition. What is a cause? Something that makes something happen. What is an effect? Something that happens as a result of something else. So all this is simply definitional - all causes have effects and all effects have causes. This is like saying all bachelors are unmarried men - it's just true by virtue of the definition of "bachelor". The questions remaining are: * Is everything that happens an effect, or are some things uncaused? Libertarianism requires that human choices are uncaused, which violates causality. I do not know if libertarianism is true, and nobody else does either. * Can causality be logically inferred from the LNC? I argue that it cannot.
I define the LNC in this way. A cannot be A and non A at the same time and in the same relationship.
That's fine.
For something to come from nothing seems to me to violate the LNC.It would be and not be at the same time and in the same relationship. It would exist before it exists.It gives me a charley horse between the ears even contemplating something existing before it exists.
To say "something coming from nothing" is called creation ex nihilo. StephenB claims that the mass/energy of the universe was created ex nihilo. You think that creation ex nihilo would violate the LNC. I think it violates the Law of Causality. Stephen thinks it doesn't violate either one!!
As for nothing that concept is also inconcievable since I must think of something to describe what nothing is.
I agree with you completely on this! I think we can't possibly understand anything that is supposed to exist outside of the entire universe. If we say there is nothing - no space, no time, no light, no matter, and so on - then we can't imagine what that is, or what could or could not "happen" in such a context. Not sure what you mean regarding quantum physics, really. I would say it is perfectly clear that we do not "have the full picture" of quantum events! We have the math, but nobody can conceptually grasp what is going on with these weird phenomena. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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I meant no [ before and after the word angle?vividbleau
June 9, 2013
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No { before and after angle?vividbleau
June 9, 2013
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--> do not use square bracketskairosfocus
June 9, 2013
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Vivid: [angle]blockquote[angle] CONTENT [angle]blockquote[/angle] KFkairosfocus
June 9, 2013
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Your statement is true for the inclusive “or”; I intended the exclusive “or”. Sorry, I thought the context would make that clear.
Let's examine it again:
if LNC is true, then something beginning to exist may be caused or not caused
First, notice that the statement is too imprecise to even be associated with the LNC, which says that a thing cannot be what is is and what it is not at the same time in in the same sense. You omitted the words "at the same time and in the same way," (either unwittingly or tactically [I never know which]) otherwise you would have recognized the flaw in your statement. In order to relate it to the LNC you would have had to say, If LNC is true, then something beginning to exist may be caused or not caused at the same time and in the same sense, which would have been ridiculous. So, you left those crucial words out in order to make your ridiculous proposition seem plausible.StephenB
June 9, 2013
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Blockquote test "">vividbleau
June 9, 2013
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Thank you very much for you comments. I too go back to ARN days, and you and I (under a slightly different name) have met many times before. I appreciate your thoughts quite a bit, so please do elaborate on where you think each of us went wrong. And yes, I’ve always found you to be an out-of-the-box thinker, and it is (at least for me) difficult to predict your arguments. Nice to see you!> Thanks for those kind words and whatever handle I knew you before in those ARN days it is nice to interact with you again as well.In my previous post I gave Kudos to you and others but I neglected to compliment Phinn and Chance, well done to both of you. As I was reading through the plethora of exchanges it became clear to me that in many respects my knowledge about these things are woefully deficient compared to the intellectual prowess of the various contibutors to this thread so I fearfully and with great trepidation offer my thoughts. RDF: We ought not pretend to be certain about these difficult, complex questions (origins, volition, ontology, etc) that have been debated endlessly thoughout history without ever reaching resolution. Even theists dramatically disagree with each other on these issues! But nobody ought to be certain about why there is something rather than nothing, nor how the universe came to exist, nor how life came to exist on Earth, nor how brains are related to conscious minds, nor if mental causality is ontologically distinct, and so on. We just don’t know the answers to those particular questions, and I think it is really important to admit that to ourselves and each other> Vivid:I think these are very wise admonitions. I think the only thing we can be certain about is that something is going on, however from that starting point we can come to reasonable although not provable ( whatever that word means) conclusions about some of the big questions as they relate origins, etc. But we must do so recognizing that these are indeed complex issues and we need to treat them from a position of humility not certainty. RDF:I’m very certain about is that we have no good reason to think we understand any of these ancient conundrums.> Because we cannot speak with absolute certainty on these issues does not mean we cannot have good reasons for our individual positions on these "conundrums" At least that is my current position which I am sure you will disabuse me of soon enough :) Furthermore I think there is a danger to slip into what KF terms the "fallacy of hyperskepticism" I know you don't particularly care for his blog but I have found his treatment of hypeskpeticism very helpfull. Regarding the law of causality and its relationship with the LNC I do think that the LOC is a logical extension of the LNC. Admittedly the LOC doesnt tell us if there are really such things as causes or if there are really such things as effects. What it does tell us is that if there are causes those causes must have effects, and if there are effects those effects must have causes. For a simple mind and certainly the least brightest bulb in this conversation I define the LNC in this way. A cannot be A and non A at the same time and in the same relationship. For something to come from nothing seems to me to violate the LNC.It would be and not be at the same time and in the same relationship. It would exist before it exists.It gives me a charley horse between the ears even contemplating something existing before it exists. As for nothing that concept is also inconcievable since I must think of something to describe what nothing is. I want to be clear I do not dispute what we have observed as it relates to quantum behavior. I know that we have observed that electrons ceases to exist at one point and simultaneously appears at another. I am familiar with Shrodingers Cat and the double slit. I find the quantum world absolutely fascinating and do not dispute its findings.I agree with Sproul it is one thing to say that electrons behave in a certain way for uncertain reasons. It is another thing to say they behave in a certain way for no reason. Furthermore for me I don't particularly care what the so called empirical observations are because if the observations are at odds with the LNC then they don't have the full picture.Really I consider it arrogance because it presupposes an attribute that no scientist or anyone else has. It presupposes omniscience. Apologies in advance for any typo's. Vividvividbleau
June 9, 2013
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My symbol for exclusive disjunction didn't work and turned into a question mark. It's that symbol with the circle with the plus sign inside it.RDFish
June 9, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
By way of LNC, if something begins to exist, it must either be caused or uncaused. One possibility must be excluded (Law of Excluded Middle). Therefore, it cannot be the case that it MAY be either caused or uncaused, which includes both possibilities.
Your statement is true for the inclusive "or"; I intended the exclusive "or". Sorry, I thought the context would make that clear. Again, the point is the LoC may be true or false regardless of the truth of LNC. In other words, LNC does not imply LoC. You have previously said the opposite - that the LoC can be derived from the LNC and that both stand or fail together. But if LoC can be either true or false (i.e. TRUE ? FALSE, exclusive disjunction) regardless of LNC, clearly LoC does not follow from LNC. Agreed? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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RD
Then statement (5) becomes: “Therefore if LNC is true then X is true”
(5) must be true because we’ve already established that X is true no matter what else is true or false.
By way of LNC, if something begins to exist, it must either be caused or uncaused. One possibility must be excluded (Law of Excluded Middle). Therefore, it cannot be the case that it MAY be either caused or uncaused, which includes both possibilities.StephenB
June 9, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
5) is incorrect.
Here is why (5) is true: Let X be statement (4), "If something begins to exist, it is either caused or not caused". We accept X as true. Then statement (5) becomes: "Therefore if LNC is true then X is true" (5) must be true because we've already established that X is true no matter what else is true or false. In other words, P => IF Q THEN P
The LNC does not say that something beginning to exist may be caused or uncaused.
In fact, the LNC does not say anything at all about causality. Things may be caused or uncaused whether or not the LNC is true.
It says that something beginning to exist may not be both caused and uncaused at the same time and in the same way.
I'd say it was the excluded middle that contradicts your statement rather than LNC, but that doesn't matter. The point is that things may be caused or uncaused whether or not LNC is true, and this means you are wrong to think that the LoC derives from the LNC. So I'll keep our summary the same for the time being :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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RD:
My rebuttal to the claim that the Law of Causality logically follows from LNC: 1) The Law of Causality is Either True or False 2) If the LoC is true, then everything that begins to exist is caused to exist 3) If the LoC is false, then not everything that begins to exist is caused to exist 4) Therefore, if something begins to exist, it is either caused or not caused 5) Therefore, if LNC is true, then something beginning to exist may be caused or not caused 6) Therefore, the Law of Causality does not logically from from the LNC
5) is incorrect. The LNC does not say that something beginning to exist may be caused or uncaused. It says that something beginning to exist may not be both caused and uncaused at the same time and in the same way.StephenB
June 9, 2013
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PLS forgive typos.kairosfocus
June 9, 2013
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Hi Vivid: That we are/may be constrained by the baneful effects of addictive bondage to and habituation in sin in aggregate, does not mean that we have no choice in specific matters. Sufficient freedom to be responsible and potentially reasonable does not imply that we are free in an absolute, no-limits sense. At obvious level, I am not free to walk into the ocean a couple of miles from here, and swim to North America or Europe. Similarly, I am not free to flap my arms and take off, flying to same. I am not even free to run at 50 mph. None of these imply that I cannot sufficiently move my body at will to be responsible for so doing in sensible ways. That is, the fundamental thing is that, through constrained, I am not a pre-programmed robot, plaything of my genes and psycho-social conditioning, etc. In particular, by the gift of God, I have the capacity of love. The point can be illustrated by a slightly science fictional scenario. One of my former students is a wonderful, loving young lady who is widely and deeply respected. Now suppose, one morning, while combing her hair, she pressed a hidden button behind here ear, and to her shock, her head top pivots open, a printer screes away and announces in the text that she is a robot pre-programmed to act as she did. Would we be able to respect her as a loving person or a reasoning individual? Not any more. At most, one would hope that the programmer involved was not malevolent or capricious. In short,t eh pivotal issue is that persons with minds and wills of our own are pivotal, to the life of reason, the life of responsibility and relationship, and even to science. I am not willing to try to defend what any and every person may have freigntedf under the term, libertarian free will, but the point is that unless we are sufficiently free to be reasonable, responsible, choosing singificantly and loving, man is dead. And, not least, discussion is dead, as discussion reduces to programing, whether original or the injection of the equivalent of computer viruses. KFkairosfocus
June 9, 2013
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Thank you, Vivid, for reminding me of another point that Stephen and I disagreed about, which is the incompatibility between libertarianism and causality. Uncaused mental causes with physical effects would indeed represent an exception to physical causality. Sorry about the misunderstanding regarding Calvinism - I wasn't sure. Please set me (and Stephen) straight on that! -RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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Hello vividbleau! Thank you very much for you comments. I too go back to ARN days, and you and I (under a slightly different name) have met many times before. I appreciate your thoughts quite a bit, so please do elaborate on where you think each of us went wrong. And yes, I've always found you to be an out-of-the-box thinker, and it is (at least for me) difficult to predict your arguments. Nice to see you! -RDFishRDFish
June 9, 2013
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BTW how did I miss this thread from the start? My I Pad does not bring up the most recent comments it just lists the topics. I also shouuld qualify my statement that I agree with RDFish.I should have written that I found that there was alot that RDFish wrote that made sense to me but certainly I dont agree with everything.I could say the same regarding KF and StephenB. Vividvividbleau
June 9, 2013
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Wow I am so bumbed!!!! I was reading another thread and somehow hit a link that took me to this thread and have spent the last three hours reading 400 plus posts. I cant believe that I missed all the fun. Bravo RDFish, Bravo Stephen B, SCordova loved your insights as well. For the record I think free will is an oxymoron since it is never free from me. Since I am a Christian I will quote Augustine "non posse non peccare" we are "not able not to sin" To bad no one will read this since the discussion pretty much has run its course but here are my observations and conclusions. I think RDFish realy exposed major problems with libertarian free will as it relates to the law of causality. My position is that my choices are self determined as if anyone cares at this point. I think StephenB is correct that the LNC and the LOC are wedded together. I dont even know why I am writing this no one will see it. I have more comments I would make as to the various points made by each participant having just spent hours reading the whole thread so I will leave it at that. I would only say that it was a great back and forth but I found myself agreeing with RDFish. For the record I go way way back to the ARN days and have great respect for KF et al and I am sure I will piss some people off by saying this but I do have some out of the box view on things. PS RDFish Calvinism does not teach that God makes our choices. Bravo to all, Vividvividbleau
June 9, 2013
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StephenB, To review our debate results: Here is what we now agree on: 1) You now agree that we cannot use logic to answer important questions about the world because you always have to go outside of logic to map the logic to the concept. 2) The Law of Conservation doesn’t apply to the beginning of the universe. If it did, it would obviously be violated by ex nihilo creation. 3) We agree that the Rules of Reason are self-evidently true (even though you refuse for some bizarre reason to allow me to hold this position) Here is what we disagree on: 4) You say that the Law of Causality does apply to the beginning of the universe. I say that we have no way of understanding what happens outside of spacetime, and none of our concepts apply in a context where neither space nor time exists. You reject that causes must precede effects in cause-effect relationships, and somehow know that God wouldn't want to withhold the Law of Causality the way He did with the Law of Conservation. 5) You say knowledge gained by generalizing from experience is not “empirical”; I disagree for (what should be) obvious reasons. 6) You do not agree that saying “X receives existence from Y” is a logical contradiction brought about by treating existence as a predicate; I disagree (along with virtually all logicians). 7) You believe that knowledge can be 100% absolutely certain; I (along with virtually all epistemologists, including Christian ones) believe there are limits to epistemological justification, including that we cannot guarantee the reliability of our own minds. And here are the points that you've simply refused to respond to: 8) You think it makes sense to talk about God doing time-ordered tasks prior to the existence of the universe. But of course it makes no sense to talk about temporal ordering "prior to" the existence of time itself. 9) You do not seem to understand that identifying universals (such as chairs or swans) is an empirically-driven process without logical rationale. 10) You have failed to respond to my argument that the LNC does not entail causality, for the simple reason that the LNC does not imply that anything causes anything at all. So that’s three points we agree on, four that we disagree on (and you’re wrong about), and three you've failed to respond to enirely (you’re wrong about those too). Perhaps you've given up? If so, thanks - it's been fun! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 8, 2013
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RDF: Have you forgotten that our cosmos is finitely limited in time on the evidence pointing to a finitely remote beginning some 13.7 BYA? Do you understand what a beginning entails, by way of the characteristics of the relevant object, and by way of its contingency? Do you need for me to push back from now to the singularity and point out that it is only this side of it that conservation patterns summarised by laws are relevant? Moreover, do you appreciate that this is the only physical domain we have empirical evidence of, so that multiverse speculations have departed the realm of empirically grounded science? Do you not see that this says essentially the same as was stated already, only in a more clumsy and roundabout fashion because of selectively hyperskeptical objections? KFkairosfocus
June 8, 2013
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'Folk, it’s over. The materialist bewitchment, the spell dressed up in a lab coat, lies shattered. Irretrievably broken.' You forgot the test-tube, KF. But how to apply it? Putting it in a pocket of that lab coat, wouldn't really cut it, would it? I love the thought of our 'scientisimificist' friends triumphantly holding up a test-tube. Ah.. Bisto! But you Atlantic riparians are probably unfamiliar with that old British ad for gravy. Doesn't have quite the ring of Eureka, banal, though that is.Axel
June 8, 2013
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