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FAQ 1 is Open For Comment

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1] ID is “not science”

On the contrary, as Dr William Dembski, a leading Intelligent Design researcher, has aptly defined:

“Intelligent Design is . . . . a scientific investigation into how patterns exhibited by finite arrangements of matter can signify intelligence.”

In turn, science at its best is an unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) progressive search for the truth about our world; based on empirical evidence and reasoned analysis. If instead one assumes or asserts the prior constraint that scientific explanations must be “naturalistic” or even — as Lewontin openly said – “materialistic,” that mistakenly imposes materialistic conclusions before the facts can speak. This blatantly begs the question, but such a blunder is now all too common; even among those who try to speak authoritatively in the name of science, education or the law. Similarly, an obvious alternative to a “natural” cause is an “artificial” — i.e. intelligent – one. And, as experience abundantly confirms, intelligent acts typically result in empirically observable signs of intelligence.

Just look all around you.

Moreover, ID satisfies all the conditions usually required for a scientific theory:

  1. It is based on empirical data: the empirical observation of the process of human design, and specific properties common to human design and biological information (CSI).

  2. It is a quantitative and internally consistent model.

  3. It is falsifiable: any positive demonstration that CSI can easily be generated by non design mechanisms is a potential falsification of the ID theory.

  4. It makes empirically testable and fruitful predictions (see point 4)

Comments
Thank you one and all. Comments on FAQ 1 are now closed. I will review and revise the FAQ.Barry Arrington
February 4, 2009
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-----JayM: “I see this type of response unfortunately often from ID proponents. You’re attacking me rather than supporting your own position.” I am sorry that you think that I am attacking you. To me, everyone is accountable, and everyone’s ideas are subject to scrutiny, and that includes the scrutinizer. I don’t know how other ID advocates feel about that; I speak only for myself. In any case, I asked you if Michael Behe is a scientist, and I must say that I was flabbergasted by your answer. You write: "I think that exploring the “edge of evolution” by investigating the limits of MET mechanisms and the topology of viable genome space can be done scientifically. I haven’t checked Dr. Behe’s publications or website recently so I don’t know if he is actively doing scientific research." So, you will not even concede that Michael Behe is doing science, or that he is an ID “scientist.” Remarkable. Earlier you identified him as the most promising ID researcher. So, in your judgment, IDs brightest light is not even a scientist, at least not in his role as an ID researcher. You are entitled to your opinion, or course, but that seems like a radical position to take. Tell me this, though. If he is not a scientist now, will he become one when he successfully refutes the NDE position? Or, is it your position that he will grow into a scientist during the process?StephenB
February 4, 2009
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JayM How ID is science: Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena.” ID takes an observed natural phenomena, DNA; hypothesis that if it is designed it will have characteristics that exists only objects of known design; quantifies those characteristics and applies them to DNA (i.e. the experiment). How to falsify: 1. Show those characteristics are found in objects of known to form without design (snowflakes for instance). 2. Show those characteristics do not actually exist in the objects of known design. 3. Show those characteristics do not exist in the target, in this case DNA.tribune7
February 4, 2009
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StephenB @93
I agree that the scientific method can be used to investigate the presence or absence of design in biological systems. I agree that ID theory could, in principle, be formulated in such a way as to generate testable predictions that could falsify the theory. I have yet to see such a formulation myself.
So, I take it then, that you do not think ID is science but you think it could be.
If in fact there is no explicit ID theory that generates testable predictions, then ID is not science. However, I think you are mistaking my goal. I am trying to contribute to this FAQ by explaining how I would address the ID opponent assertion "ID is not science." Now, it so happens that I personally haven't seen examples of ID researchers applying the scientific method, nor have I seen an explicit theory of ID stated along with testable predictions. The fact that I haven't seen those doesn't mean they don't exist. I raise the issue because I would like to see someone who does know where to find that information provide it and put it in the FAQ. If that information is not available, then I would suggest that ID is an early stage hypothesis that can be investigated further using the tools of science.
On the other hand, you have your own definition of science.
I think you will find that the definition of the scientific method and my desire to see ID theory stated in a falsifiable manner are extremely mainstream views of science.
So, that pretty much puts you in a position to reject ID on the strength of your own definitions until ID decides to come around to your way of thinking.
Since your premise is wrong, it's not surprising that your conclusion is as well. The scientific method and the criteria for a theory to be considered scientific are basics taught at the high school level. I'm not sure where you're going with this line of reasoning. Are you saying that ID does not meet the current definition of "science" and so we need to change the definition?
I also do not agree that Dr. Dembski’s CSI is currently sufficiently well-defined to serve as a mechanism of design detection. I would like to see it more formalized.
Yes, I get that. You will grant that ID is science when ID agrees to do things your way.
Your passion for ID is clouding your reading comprehension. First, nothing in my statement about CSI has anything to do with the definition of science. Second, my definition is a very common one. I see this type of response unfortunately often from ID proponents. You're attacking me rather than supporting your own position. If you know of ID researchers using the scientific method, simply produce the results they are generating. If you know of an explicit statement of ID theory that generates testable predictions, show it to us. If you're certain that CSI can be calculated for real world biological constructs, do the math. When all even the most sympathetic questioners get back is vitriol instead of answers, it suggests that vitriol is all ID has to offer. I thought the FAQ was supposed to provide real answers.
My personal view is that Dr. Behe’s approach of investigating the limits of MET mechanisms is likely to be the most fruitful area of ID research in the near future.
I think I get the idea. Just for fun, do you think Michael Behe is doing science?
I think that exploring the "edge of evolution" by investigating the limits of MET mechanisms and the topology of viable genome space can be done scientifically. I haven't checked Dr. Behe's publications or website recently so I don't know if he is actively doing scientific research. JJJayM
February 4, 2009
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GP, I think I'm seeing what troubles me about the definition. When dealing with people who are very well educated, or who have been following the issue, it's perfect. For those who may be coming to this after not having picked up a science book since high school (or for a high school student writing a paper) It might be good to have something in there that expressly addresses what they were taught. This is basically what I remember being taught: Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena." IOW, if the words "observation" and "experimentation" can be worked in and it be shown how they apply to ID (and they do) it might have benefits that haven't been considered. I wouldn't change your wording, btw. I would go with an addendum i.e. For High School Students: Science is commonly taught in high schools to be etc. ID makes observations about nature, hypothesizes they have etc. Anyway, it's just something to mull.tribune7
February 4, 2009
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trib, "GP, it might not be bad to throw in an addendum recognizing the popular definition of science (observation, hypothesis, experimentation etc.) and noting how ID fulfills it anyway." well, in the second part we do exactly that. It starts, indeed, with: "Moreover, ID satisfies all the conditions usually required for a scientific theory:" and goes on with the four points. So, the structure of the answers is something like that: we give our definition nof science, keeping it as broad as possible, and at the same time we show how ID is consistent even with a "restricted" definition of science. The only thing ID is not compatible with is a definition of science so restricted that it is "ad hoc" for a specific philosophy, like materialism. In other words, a definition like "Science is only what is compatible with darwinian theroy" will not do, not for us, at least. And although I love philosophy of science, I think that a FAQ like this has to keep some limits.gpuccio
February 4, 2009
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Actually, ID can't even say "this is not designed" since false negatives are expected.tribune7
February 4, 2009
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That’s probably one of the reasons why we preferred a more open definition for science, GP, it might not be bad to throw in an addendum recognizing the popular definition of science (observation, hypothesis, experimentation etc.) and noting how ID fulfills it anyway. And while I'm thinking about it, it might not be a bad idea to point out the inherent limitations of the popular concept of science namely that it is incapable of addressing very real and very important matters. A methodology requiring a material answer will inevitably become trapped in an infinite loop if it tries to answer the question "what started it all." So where did that cause come from, so where did that cause come from et. until it breaks its own rules and presumes multiverses where the physics are different and hence discredits itself. A methodology based on logic and philosophy of course has no such problem i.e. "Logic tells us there has to be an uncaused cause hence we hold that to be axiomatic, so now let's go do something useful." And of course, we can humbly point out that ID is part of the type of science that can't answer most questions. All it can do is say, "yes, this is designed."tribune7
February 4, 2009
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-----JayM: “I agree that the scientific method can be used to investigate the presence or absence of design in biological systems. I agree that ID theory could, in principle, be formulated in such a way as to generate testable predictions that could falsify the theory. I have yet to see such a formulation myself." So, I take it then, that you do not think ID is science but you think it could be. On the other hand, you have your own definition of science. So, that pretty much puts you in a position to reject ID on the strength of your own definitions until ID decides to come around to your way of thinking. ----“To be perfectly clear, I do not agree that the nature of the designer has to be, or even can be, off-limits in ID theory. See my comments on Dr. Fuller’s thread for more detail on that.” Yes, you have made it perfectly clear that you do not think ID’s own definition of itself is sufficient. You would like to see ID change its mission and its purpose to conform to your perception of what its mission and purpose ought to be. The only problem with that is that only the scientist can choose his own methods because only the scientist knows what research questions he would like to answers. -----“I also do not agree that Dr. Dembski’s CSI is currently sufficiently well-defined to serve as a mechanism of design detection. I would like to see it more formalized.” Yes, I get that. You will grant that ID is science when ID agrees to do things your way. -----“My personal view is that Dr. Behe’s approach of investigating the limits of MET mechanisms is likely to be the most fruitful area of ID research in the near future.” I think I get the idea. Just for fun, do you think Michael Behe is doing science? ----"Someone here is definitely missing the point. If you re-read my post, you’ll see I was suggesting that the FAQ answer should point out that the question is ill-formed and answer the real question, in terms of use of the scientific method and generation of testable predictions." Don't tell me. You don't like the question because it wasn't asked in a way that you would have preferred. Let us hope that, someday, we can learn to conform to your mission for ID, your definition of science, your standard for methods, and your judgment about the way the FAQ questions were formed. You do indeed set the bar very high.StephenB
February 4, 2009
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jerry: I will never understand you. I can agree that the general concept of CSI is more difficult to deal with than the subset of funcrionally specified CSI (FSCI, if you want). But FSCI is still a subset of CSI, one where the specification is functional. Restricting the discussion to FSCI is no problem for the applications in biology, because, as we have said many times, the CSI in biology is all of the type of FSCI. And I ususally restrict even more the concept for practical application to biological models, to the subset of FSCI in a string of digital information, such as DNA or proteins. Therefore, where is the problem? The only pertinent application of CSI in biology is FSCI, so if you agree that FSCI can be easily managed, what are you complaining of? If you read the remaining part of the FAQ, or if you wait formthe discussion of it here, you will see that we, being interested only to the applications in biology, practically always deal with FSCI. I stay with my idea that the general problem of an universal definition of CSI remains very important, but not so much for biological applications. So, maybe we can agree on that part of the discussion. But I have used the term CSI in point one of the FAQ because it is correct and more familiar in the general discussion. It is correct, because FSCI "is" CSI. In biological information, we find FSCI, and therefore we find CSI. But we certainly don't find Mount Rushmore: we find functional specification.gpuccio
February 4, 2009
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gpuccio, Well I wish you luck on this. But CSI has no accepted definition and to use it as an indication that ID is science is potentially sending it down a road with a dead end. If anyone thinks they know what CSI is then maybe they can explain it. FCSI is as simple as eating pie so don't use that to form a definition of CSI. Remember is has to explain bridge hand, Mr. Rushmore, and coin flips as well as DNA. The problem is in the word specified. In FCSI the information under analysis is doing the specifying and is easily understood when expressed that way. In CSI the information is what is specified (the opposite of FCSI) and does not necessarily have a function nor a logical connection to anything and that is where the morass is.jerry
February 4, 2009
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gpuccio @89
And I am sure to speak also for SB and KF when I say that we do believe in CSI, in its reality, in its importance, in its computability, and in its key role for ID theory.
"Belief" is well and good, and can lead one to do the work to support that belief, but it holds no water scientifically. Whether or not CSI is computable for a real world biological construct, taking into account known mechanisms of modern evolutionary theory, is not a matter of belief. Either it can be done or it cannot. If it can, we need to present it. That alone would refute many arguments of ID opponents. Unfortunately, no one has yet provided such a demonstration. JJJayM
February 4, 2009
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Just my opinion about the general "science definition" question. I don't agree that science is defined by a specific method. I think that science is much more than its methods, and that no final "scientific method" exists. In a sense, I am on Feyerabend's side. Even if I have respect for the method(s), I do believe that excessive and dogmatic emphasis on the method is more a limit than a facilitation for science. That's probably one of the reasons why we preferred a more open definition for science, based more on its true purpose and moral and cognitive attitude than on its method. Many will disagree, but that's how we conceive it. And nobody of us has ever thought of referring to a "capital-T “Truth”". In our FAQ, the word truth is not written with a capital T, and is immediately followed by a specification: "about our world", and preceded by "progressive search for". So, no absolutes here. Only a humble belief that some form of scientific truth is possible, and that it is good and precious, not in spite of its limits, but because of its limits. Personally, I do love limited truths: they are beautiful, and very, very human. And for those who seem to support some internal division between Behe-ism and Dembski-ism, I want to say that we see no such division, and that vwe love and appreciate Behe's and Dembski's approach in the same way, deeply convinced that the one strengthens the other. And I am sure to speak also for SB and KF when I say that we do believe in CSI, in its reality, in its importance, in its computability, and in its key role for ID theory. Speaking now for myself, I personally believe also that CSI is one of the most important concepts in science today, and that it is at the very center of many controversial aspects of current scientific thought, from darwinist theory to strong AI, to theory of information and theory of meaning. The only reason why darwinists and materialists are so stronly fighting against that concept is, IMO, that they know how fundamental (adn, for them, dangerous) it is. So, I see any attack to CSI as a cognitive suicide if it comes from an IDist, and as a desperate attempt at self-defemse if it comes form the other side.gpuccio
February 4, 2009
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StephenB @86
In any case, I understand where the question came from. It’s still ill-formed.
One of the reasons that I write short posts is to make sure that no one misses my point. So, how is it that you missed my point that we are responding to SOMEONE ELSES FALSE OBJECTION>
Someone here is definitely missing the point. If you re-read my post, you'll see I was suggesting that the FAQ answer should point out that the question is ill-formed and answer the real question, in terms of use of the scientific method and generation of testable predictions. When someone asks a question that badly phrased, it's an opportunity to educate them on what science means and how ID fits that criteria. JJJayM
February 4, 2009
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StephenB @85
However, you do not come across as someone who accepts ID in principle. Indeed, you do not even seem to accept this most basic proposition that ID is science, or if you do, you have yet to acknowledge it. So, I put it to you. Do you agree that ID is science?
I agree that the scientific method can be used to investigate the presence or absence of design in biological systems. I agree that ID theory could, in principle, be formulated in such a way as to generate testable predictions that could falsify the theory. I have yet to see such a formulation myself. To be perfectly clear, I do not agree that the nature of the designer has to be, or even can be, off-limits in ID theory. See my comments on Dr. Fuller's thread for more detail on that. I also do not agree that Dr. Dembski's CSI is currently sufficiently well-defined to serve as a mechanism of design detection. I would like to see it more formalized. My personal view is that Dr. Behe's approach of investigating the limits of MET mechanisms is likely to be the most fruitful area of ID research in the near future. If you'd like any further clarity of my views, you have but to ask. JJJayM
February 4, 2009
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----"JayM: "In any case, I understand where the question came from. It’s still ill-formed." One of the reasons that I write short posts is to make sure that no one misses my point. So, how is it that you missed my point that we are responding to SOMEONE ELSES FALSE OBJECTION>StephenB
February 4, 2009
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----JayM: "Why do you assume I am in “that camp”? If you check my posting history here you’ll see that I’m more of a Behe-ist/Fuller-ist than a Dembski-ist. I suppose heretics are considered worse than heathens…." No, I don't place anyone in the heretic category. However, you do not come across as someone who accepts ID in principle. Indeed, you do not even seem to accept this most basic proposition that ID is science, or if you do, you have yet to acknowledge it. So, I put it to you. Do you agree that ID is science? If so, then why don't you say so and allow us to move on to the more complicated questions. If you don't agree that ID is science, then you hardly qualify as a Behe/Fuller ID advocate.StephenB
February 4, 2009
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So why is ID accused of not being science? Because that fact isn’t communicated well. No, it's because the blinded-by-emotion opponents of ID have arbitrarily added the caveat that scientific endeavors must declare a material end result no matter how faithful to observe, hypothesize, predict, test etc. a method might be. This excludes ID since ID limits itself to the observable and refuses to make a conclusion it can't about how it got there. And that is why it is important --arguably of paramount importance -- to address the "ID is not science" claim. I kind of like that label for ID opponents -- emo scientists :-)tribune7
February 4, 2009
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StephenB @75
My personal view is that "Is ID science?" isn’t a well formed question. "Is there a scientific theory of ID?" and "Do ID researchers follow the scientific method?" are more to the point.
We are addressing false accusations that come the Darwinist community one at at time and in logical order. We did not conceive this question (ID is science) in a vaccum (our Darwinist adversaries, I take it that you are in that camp) made the false charge that ID is NOT science.
Why do you assume I am in "that camp"? If you check my posting history here you'll see that I'm more of a Behe-ist/Fuller-ist than a Dembski-ist. I suppose heretics are considered worse than heathens.... In any case, I understand where the question came from. It's still ill-formed. I am suggesting that pointing that out and focusing on the scientific method as used in ID research and explaining exactly what ID theory is and exactly how it can be falsified will lay these accusations to rest.
Meanwhile, you have not yet addressed my first question. Do you agree that science should be an unfettered search for truth?
My apologies, I missed the question previously. I would have to say that I don't necessarily agree. Science is an exploration of the natural world. The scientific method has, dare I say, evolved to eliminate error whenever possible. As Feynman said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." Done well, science eliminates error in the investigation of natural phenomena. Science is a means of asymptotically approaching alignment of descriptions of the natural world with the reality of the natural world. Whether that constitutes capital-T "Truth" is a matter for philosophers, not scientists. JJJayM
February 4, 2009
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Jerry: I appreciate your contribution, but I respectfully disagree. But I don't think I have anything to add to what I have already said.gpuccio
February 4, 2009
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gpuccio, I disagree. Get rid of CSI from this FAQ. In my comment I said to treat it later, much later. If you do then the morass that is being generated will disappear and you will stay closer to the question which is about science. Evolutionary biology is not falsified by falsifying Darwinian processes or even the establishment of ID. Just individual parts of it. Behe operates in evolutionary biology and he is our rock. This just makes my point that CSI is not necessary for ID. So treat it at some later point in time. The question should be answered by saying that science is being expanded by the use of techniques introduced by ID and with an expanded philosophy and these techniques are common to science. These techniques and a change in philosophy would not cancel out one bit of science done to date but just expand the potential conclusions. I also said I have never seen an understandable definition for CSI and I have been around here longer than most. If one wants to go back and check the endless discussion of this you will see that I started a lot of them and never saw them end anywhere that was easy to understand. But modify this just a little bit and get rid of CSI and introduce FCSI and the discussion takes off with easy to understand relevant concepts and computable results. So get rid of CSI at this point and time and we can have the endless discussion of just what is CSI some other time in the future.jerry
February 4, 2009
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Jerry: "Again I ask and it continues not to be answered. Does Behe use the concept of CSI? The answer is no and Behe has done more for ID in recent years than anyone." And I will answer you. I am not sure if Behe has ever used the concept of CSI directly. Maybe not. But his work is strictly connected to the concept of CSI. And Behe's work, while really fundamental for ID, would be very limited without the general context of the ID theory. You see, Dembski and Behe are two complementary aspects of ID. Dembski gives us a theoretical frame which explains many things, and is a very powerful tool to reason and connect all that we know. Behe is an empirical scientist, and brings us back to specific biological reasoning and empirical models of research and of confirmation. Both are necessary, both are useful. Behe's work has two very different aspects, eac prevailing in each of his books. The first is the concept of IC, which is wonderfully explained in DBB. Now, I would like to remark that IC, even if empirically grounded, is in itself a theorical concept, much as CSI. Indeed, IC is probably a special case of CSI, but I will not even try to demonstarte that. IC is a property of complex machines, an onservable property which can be linked to the properties of designed objects, exactly like CSI. The second great contribution made by Behe to ID can be found in his second book, TEOE, where he gives a very deep interpratation of existing biological data to show that the observed behaviour of some very objective biological models (like plasmodium falciparum) do confirm the expecattions of ID calculations (including those calculations implicit in the CSI concept). Therefore I do believe that, while Behe does not use explicitly the concept of CSI in his work (which is based at another level), still his methodology and his conclusions are firmly grounded in the more general ID theory.gpuccio
February 4, 2009
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tribune7 @70
The scientific method question is straightforward: Observe, hypothesize, predict, test, repeat. . . .”
Which ID researchers do. DNA is observed to store information. It is hypothesized that it is designed. It is predicted it will have the same objective characteristics as objects of known design. etc. So why is ID accused of not being science?
Because that fact isn't communicated well. I thought the purpose of the FAQ was to improve on that situation. I'm just tossing in my two cents here. JJJayM
February 4, 2009
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Jerry: I would like to answer your comments about the presence of the CSI concept in this first point. You say: "I believe that the term CSI should be removed from the FAQ." I suppose you mean from the first point: removing CSI from all the FAQ would be a very strange option! "CSI is a technique of analysis and as such should be judged as every other technique should be judged. CSI is not essential for ID let alone the essence of ID so why should it appear in a discussion on whether ID is science or not." CSI is explixitly cited in this point twice, and for a reason. In 1), as the observable property which links biological information to the products of human design. And in 2), in the context of an example of potential falsification of the whole ID theory. I don't believe that you are right when you say that CSI is a "technique of analysis". CSI is a concept, defining an observable property in objects, a property which the ID theory connects to their being designed. That's why it is cited, and must be cited, in 1), because it is the observable property which is at the root of the empirical reasoning in ID. I don't see how we could describe the general reasoning in ID without the concept of CSI (or any similar property). In point 3), we have just suggested a way to falsify ID. I post it again here, to comment on it: "any positive demonstration that CSI can easily be generated by non design mechanisms is a potential falsification of the ID theory". IOW, ID theory connects the presence of CSI in an object to the conclusion that the object is designed. It does that at two different levels: empirically, from the observation that we find CSI only in designed objects; and conceptually, by showing that no model based only on chance and necessity can be reasonably expected to attain CSI. That's why the empirical or conceptual demonstration that CSI can easily be generated by non design mechanisms would certainly be a falsification of ID. In the previous posts, I have discussed with Mark another potential way to falsify ID: by demonstrating that the properties which we observe in biological information, and in particular in the genome and proteome, and which ID interprets as CSI and as the product of design, can be instead explained by reasonable and empirically supported non design models. These are two very explicit ways that ID can be falsified. Even if they can seem the same thing, they are different. The first kind of falsification would directly deny the concept itself of CSI as a tool for design detection, in any context. The second kind, instead, is more specifically a falsification of the conclusions of ID about biological information. Both, anyway, would essentially falsify the ID theory.gpuccio
February 4, 2009
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First of all, I will not discuss here the computation of CSI, because that fundamental point deserves a more complete discussion when its turn comes. For those interested, there is also a similar discussion about that point going on at the second Durston thread. A second general point: it should be clear that our FAQ has no pretende to give the final answers to all the questions regarding ID and darwinian evolution. That would be really too much! We have tried to state the ID position as clearly as possible on many controversial points. We don't expect that everybody agrees with us. we definitely don't expect that. So, the discussion is certainly interesting, and we like it, but in the end most people will remain with their personal convictions. There is nothing wrong with that. It is rather obvious that darwinists will not agree with us, because obviously they don't agree with ID. We are naturally interested in their objections, but it is possible that we already know some of them. We are also interested in the comments of other IDists, as our purpose was above all to express ID positions correctly and clearly.gpuccio
February 4, 2009
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It would probably be better if I said It is predicted DNA will have the same objective characteristics that only objects of known design have.tribune7
February 4, 2009
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----JayM: "My personal view is that “Is ID science?” isn’t a well formed question. “Is there a scientific theory of ID?” and “Do ID researchers follow the scientific method?” are more to the point." We are addressing false accusations that come the Darwinist community one at at time and in logical order. We did not conceive this question (ID is science) in a vaccum (our Darwinist adversaries, I take it that you are in that camp) made the false charge that ID is NOT science. Those words came from them, not from us. So, if you don't like way the issue if framed, please tell your colleagues to stop framing it that way. Meanwhile, you have not yet addressed my first question. Do you agree that science should be an unfettered search for truth?StephenB
February 4, 2009
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JayM --The scientific method question is straightforward: Observe, hypothesize, predict, test, repeat. . . .” Which ID researchers do. DNA is observed to store information. It is hypothesized that it is designed. It is predicted it will have the same objective characteristics as objects of known design. etc. So why is ID accused of not being science?tribune7
February 4, 2009
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I believe that the term CSI should be removed from the FAQ. CSI is a technique of analysis and as such should be judged as every other technique should be judged. CSI is not essential for ID let alone the essence of ID so why should it appear in a discussion on whether ID is science or not. Again I ask and it continues not to be answered. Does Behe use the concept of CSI? The answer is no and Behe has done more for ID in recent years than anyone. CSI should eventually discussed but as a separate FAQ and not right away because there should be a lot of other things before that.jerry
February 4, 2009
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StephenB @63
What we are trying to settle here is that claim that ID qualifies as science in the general sensce
That's fine, but putting in claims about ID theory currently being "quantifiable" is unnecessary and distracting. My personal view is that "Is ID science?" isn't a well formed question. "Is there a scientific theory of ID?" and "Do ID researchers follow the scientific method?" are more to the point. The scientific method question is straightforward: Observe, hypothesize, predict, test, repeat. If ID researchers do that, they are "doing science." The scientific theory question simply requires that ID theory be stated clearly and be shown to generate predictions that, if tested and shown to be wrong, would falsify the theory. With those two results, all the philosophy of science distractions would vanish. JJJayM
February 4, 2009
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