Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Fitting Together the Cosmic Jigsaw Puzzle

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I’ve been thinking about the God of the Gaps argument today.  Proponents of naturalism (of both the philosophical and methodological stripe) use this argument in an attempt to discredit design theory as a means of explaining the physical world.  The argument usually goes something like this:  There are many things we formerly did not understand, such as the law of gravitation.  We might have been content to sit back and say “We don’t understand gravitation and we never will; God must have done it so there is no sense in inquiring further.”  But we were not content to rest in our ignorance, and scientists like Newton kept at it until they discovered the law of gravity.  There only seemed to be a gap that we needed to fill with God.  Similarly today, we can be assured that science will eventually fill in the remaining gaps of our scientific knowledge.  Thus, there is never a need to resort to “God did it” as an explanation for any phenomenon. 

 

Most ID proponents do not insist that a deity must have been the designer.  Nevertheless, the God of the Gaps argument is employed against ID by one of two means:  (1) We don’t care that you don’t posit a deity as the designer in your theory; we have fathomed your heart of hearts and we know that God (especially the God of the Bible) is really whom you have in mind.  (2) Even if we grant that you don’t posit God as the designer, you still posit the act of an agent, which cannot be encompassed by explanations based strictly on mechanical necessity (i.e., the laws of nature) and/or chance.  Since science operates only with explanations based on law and/or chance, for purpose of the “gaps” argument, it makes no difference if you posit a non-deity agent, because an “agent of the gaps” is just as much a scientific show stopper as a “God of the gaps.”

 

The problem with the “God of the Gaps” argument is that it is demonstrably false as a matter of the plain historic record.  Consider the law of gravitation from the example I used above.  No one can seriously doubt that Isaac Newton was a deeply religious man.  Indeed, he saw his work not as the search for knowledge for its own sake, or even for the sake of the practical benefits that would ensue from his discoveries.  No, he saw his life’s work as an inquiry into the nature of God’s design in the cosmos.  Newton believed “God did it.”  So why didn’t this belief bring his scientific inquiries to a screeching halt?  After all, that is exactly what the “God of the Gaps” theory predicts should have happened.

 

Newton did not stop his work for the same reason people work jigsaw puzzles.  Millions of jigsaw puzzles are sold every year to people who know beyond the slightest doubt that the overall picture was “designed” and that each of the individual pieces was cut by a designer in such a way as to fit into a unified whole.  So what is the fascination of a jigsaw puzzle?  At a certain level it seems utterly pointless.  Yet, humans appear to have an innate drive to explore puzzles.  There is something deeply satisfying about working out how a set of complex and seemingly unrelated pieces fit until an elegant, beautiful and unified whole.  The inner drive that motivates my kids to sit on the floor by the tree and put together the puzzle they just got for Christmas, is the same drive that motivated Newton to discover the laws of gravity and Kepler the laws of planetary motion.  Newton and Kepler were working on the grandest jigsaw puzzle of all – the jigsaw puzzle of the cosmos.  It mattered not one wit to them that before they ever began their inquires God had “painted the picture and carved the pieces of the puzzle” as it were.  They were driven to discover how it all fit together.

 

For this reason ID is not a scientific show stopper because it posits design in the universe.  The fact of design means nothing when it comes to continuing to investigating the details of the design – working the puzzle if you like.  With respect to every phenomenon we choose to investigate through the scientific method, we can ask what is its function, how can we model it, how does it fit into a unified whole, and can we use it to improve our material condition?  These are all jigsaw puzzle type questions, questions we are driven to answer by our innate curiosity about the world in which we live.  And at the end of the day it seems to me that it makes little difference in how we approach these questions if we assume the puzzle was made by blind chance and law that came together with such perfection that an illusion of design arises, or if we go one step further and assume the appearance of design gives away the fact of design.  The puzzle of how it all fits together and how we can use it remains to be solved.

Comments
The atheist position is that humans were not created at all, they just happened by accident. So, they have no created nature. That is why atheists don’t believe that there is any such thing as “human” nature. For them, there is just nature, which includes chemicals, plants, and various kinds of animals, of which humans are a subset. If there is no such thing as human nature, then obviously there can be no such thing as a morality of human nature, which means that there can be no morality at all.
I don't know how this became "the atheist position," and I don't doubt that some atheist take it, but it certainly is not required as a logical consequence of atheism. The physical components (material) that make up a human being (the human brain, in particular) differ from those of other living things (including other animals), so it is not at all a problem that humans can behave and react distinctly. (I know that many of you would dispute that "evolution" or materialistic processes could produce a distinctly human personality, but the issue here is what "atheists" could believe.) So, I see no inherent problem with "a morality of human nature" within an atheist paradigm.pubdef
January 14, 2009
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-----Laminar: “I never tried a pencil on a tin can but one was just enough to get into a can of pepsi once when the ring-pull malfunctioned.” I am a big believer in purpose, but I celebrate creativity as well. Three cheers! -----“So if a good person is someone who lives according to their created nature then being created as a self destructive and war-prone species would mean that it is not immoral to kill. Absolute morality in this case is dependant on whatever god created us for, which could be for entertainment. The only way I know of to discern what we were made for is to have our maker reveal it to us. I believe that is what the Bible and the Church are for. I do think, however, that the natural moral law can be apprehended through reason alone. ------“You still have subjective morality though because what you regard as right and wrong presumably comes from some kind of scripture or personal revelation. Lots of people derive their morality from scripture and revelation but many of these moral perspectives seem to clash. How do I know which one to trust?” It is not a “personal” revelation, (which would indeed make it subjective), it is a Divine revelation, (which is what makes it objective). There is no disagreement (at least among Christians) about the morality contained in Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes, or the Sermon on the Mount. All of these are descriptions and extensions of the “natural moral law,” which is also objective. If it is objective, we “discover” it; if it is subjective we “create” it. If it is objective, it is universal, meaning that it applies to all people; if it is subjective, it is individual, meaning that each person conveniently chooses his own. That is why objective morality fosters an orderly society while subjective morality inevitably leads to a “war of all against all.” -----“To put the atheistic perspective forward for a moment, if humans were created by natural processes then they to ought to behave according to their created nature. In this case it would be as intelligent animals who tend to thrive in large social groups where indiscriminate killing and overt selfishness is detrimental to the group, and consequently runs against their ‘nature’.” The atheist position is that humans were not created at all, they just happened by accident. So, they have no created nature. That is why atheists don’t believe that there is any such thing as “human” nature. For them, there is just nature, which includes chemicals, plants, and various kinds of animals, of which humans are a subset. If there is no such thing as human nature, then obviously there can be no such thing as a morality of human nature, which means that there can be no morality at all.StephenB
January 14, 2009
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To put the atheistic perspective forward for a moment, if humans were created by natural processes then they to ought to behave according to their created nature. In this case it would be as intelligent animals who tend to thrive in large social groups where indiscriminate killing and overt selfishness is detrimental to the group, and consequently runs against their ‘nature’. So if we leave God out of the picture, humans will form large social groups without indiscriminate killing and overt selfishness?tribune7
January 14, 2009
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People often think of "seriousness" and "fun" at two opposite ends of the spectrum. However, I've found that the most fun I have is when I take things the most seriously, and this makes sense. If I don't care about the outcome or anything else in the process, where's the thrill? Pursuit of pleasure for it's own sake leads to apathy and dullness. Pursuing meaning makes your life mean more and increases the thrill ride of life's ups and downs. I think this is what Jesus meant when he said he came to give us life "more abundantly". This is why I find the slogan, "There is probably no god, so stop worrying and enjoy your life," so ludicrous. And it's probably why people do not like Darwin's theory. If your life has no meaning, how can anything be enjoyable?tragicmishap
January 14, 2009
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pubdef 66: "So what’s the point of thinking so hard if either decision you come to is based on faith??" I think Barry made this point in the OP. We are human beings. We are curious about the world we live in and we like to solve puzzles. It's what we do.tragicmishap
January 14, 2009
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Crandaddy - 77 Let me first make it clear that by GOD I mean any entity capable of creating a universe. Your conclusion is based on your own definition of what the word GOD implies to you, whilst you are entitled to believe that the work GOD should only apply to the human centric conception of a singular deity as concieved by western theism I find your definition far to limited. We are, in effect, talking about two totally different things. You have basically defined the word GOD to make your argument true. Should we be making definitive distinctions between GOD, super natural forces and Intelligent designers as causal agents? If I conclude that God exists then in order to determine if it makes any significant difference to our lives I would need to know something about the nature of god. If I use your definition of God then the significance is implicit in the definition of God, if I use my definition then the significance is dependant on the nature of God.Laminar
January 14, 2009
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StephenB - 64 I've use a lot of different things to open cans in my time. Not all of them were can openers and some were more effective than others. I never tried a pencil on a tin can but one was just enough to get into a can of pepsi once when the ring-pull malfunctioned. So if a good person is someone who lives according to their created nature then being created as a self destructive and war-prone species would mean that it is not immoral to kill. Absolute morality in this case is dependant on whatever god created us for, which could be for entertainment. You still have subjective morality though because what you regard as right and wrong presumably comes from some kind of scripture or personal revelation. Lots of people derive their morality from scripture and revelation but many of these moral perspectives seem to clash. How do I know which one to trust? To put the atheistic perspective forward for a moment, if humans were created by natural processes then they to ought to behave according to their created nature. In this case it would be as intelligent animals who tend to thrive in large social groups where indiscriminate killing and overt selfishness is detrimental to the group, and consequently runs against their 'nature'. "Among all earthly creatures, only man has the power to resist his created purpose ..." Is that a fact or a statement about your faith? Presumably if it is a fact then we must have been created this way for a purpose.Laminar
January 14, 2009
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Gerry - 63 Lots of people hold beliefs about what is right and wrong and sometimes struggle to do the right thing. They don't all subscribe to a religion. In fact subscribing to a religion doesn't seem to help much when it comes to doing the right thing as it is all to easy to pick the priest/rabbi/imam who is telling you what you want to hear. It is also very easy to lead people when you are regarded as a moral authority so although I agree with you that religious people sometimes struggle to do the right thing, as do non-religious people, a lot of people will also just do what they are told is right even if it is actually just an expression of the prejudices or angst of their preacher. "We just want to eliminate the wrong impression people have on evolution from the debate." I hope by that you mean that believing that 'the theory of evolution means that there can be no god' is wrong and a misrepresentation of the theory.Laminar
January 14, 2009
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crandaddy @77. Very nice!StephenB
January 13, 2009
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Laminar and pubdef, Let me first make it clear that by "God," I refer to such a being as conceived in classical Western theism. Such a being would have to be omnipotent and omniscient, and he must exist in such a way as to both be completely independent of everything distinct from himself for his existence and make everything that exists distinct from himself metaphysically dependent on him for its existence. This is known as the aseity-dependence doctrine. Since we exist and we are not necessary beings, it follows that we were made to exist and therefore, that we exist for a purpose. Since we are rational beings, we are able to understand purposes and teleological ends. It follows that if we were made for a purpose, then we have a teleological end. Now is that end good? Well, since we have a rational nature and an understanding of purpose, given that God exists, it follows that our having such a nature was created by God for a purpose. It seems reasonable to me to think that if God gave us an understanding of purpose (and therefore an understanding of things that are good and things that are bad, else purpose would not have its full meaning), then he would make us disposed to love those things that are good and hate those things that are bad. Therefore, it seems reasonable to suppose that the highest good we could understand would be that good which corresponds perfectly with God's purpose for our existence. I conclude that if God exists, then that makes a difference to our lives that nothing else can even come close to making--it fundamentally alters the way that we exist.crandaddy
January 13, 2009
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"I’m sorry, I really don’t see the value of that definition." Why not? "I don’t know everything; neither does anyone else." Of course that is why it is necessary that you have certain unprovable presuppositions that evidently you did not know you needed to have. "And what is “the gap between what we know and don’t know?” LOL You have asked and answered your own question after all you admit you do not know everything. Vividvividbleau
January 13, 2009
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If the force is unknown (and I freely admit that I myself know nothing about it), where is the “faith? I'll grant that's not faith, but apathy. Are you saying that it really is wise to hold the philosophy that what you don't know can't hurt you? If you say the universe has a cause that can be ascribed to soon/yet to be discovered natural laws that is blind faith bordering on delusion. I'll concede that saying don't know/don't care is not faith, but if that's your view why bother posting here?tribune7
January 13, 2009
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It is faith because faith is what fills the gap between what we know and dont know.
I'm sorry, I really don't see the value of that definition. I don't know everything; neither does anyone else. And what is "the gap between what we know and don't know?" Sounds like "an acre of land between the salt water and the sea sand."pubdef
January 13, 2009
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"All of us , if we drill down far enough, uts presuppose something that just is,whatever that is for you is what you have faith in." "How could you possibly know that about me?" pub Because everyone starts with certain presuppositions and assumptions that are not provable. If you press any set of ideas back far enough, eventually you reach some starting point. Something has to be taken as seld existent, the ultimate reality and source of everything else. That this is true is not a subject of controversy. I am surprised that you are not aware of this. "As it happens, I probably do have some presuppositions, but I don’t see that it is absolutely necessary that I do." It is absolutely necessary that you do thats why you do have them. "And, more to the point, if I am open to evidence that contradicts my presupposition, how is that “faith?”" It is faith because faith is what fills the gap between what we know and dont know. I have faith in alot of things and I am open to evidence that contradicts what I believe in. Do not confuse faith with fideism. Vividvividbleau
January 13, 2009
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#71 tribune7: I can hardly remember how we started talking about this, and I'm inclined to say one more thing and then wait until the next thread that strikes my interest. My question was probably pretty confusing, so here's what I was trying to say: I am comfortable settling on "there is probably no God" because I expect that if God's existence is so obscure (which is implied by the premise that there is only a "small, slim chance" that God exists), no one who fails to perceive that existence can be held accountable in any serious way. (I don't expect that position to enjoy wide support around here, but who knows.) Ok, now, you say:
If there is a God, God’s existence is consequential. Let’s just agree on that point.
Sorry, can't do that. That assumes not only existence of "a God," but also an attribute of that God. I will concede that if there is a God such as (I assume) you believe in, I'm facing some "consequences;" but my point throughout has been that I consider that possibility so unlikely as to be, essentially, unimportant. I'm not worried about it, IOW.
Is it possible for the universe to come about without design?
Well, that's the question that brought us here in the first place, and I clearly don't agree that the likelihood is 0. I suspect that the likelihood is incalculable on the knowledge that we have and that the likelihood of "design" is even more incalculable because we have (and multitudes of ID proponents insist that we can have) no knowledge of a designer.
To think that it could have is to have faith in some unknown force for which there is not a scintilla of evidence for its existence.
If the force is unknown (and I freely admit that I myself know nothing about it), where is the "faith?" I have "faith" that there is something I know nothing about, and if I had the time, resources, and talent, I would try to find out whatever I could about it. I'm sorry, that really doesn't feel like "faith" to me. To tell you the truth, I am mostly amenable to an "uncaused cause, unmoved mover" conception of ... something, but, as I see it, the most salient characteristic of ... it is that it is entirely outside of our knowledge and experience. Thus, it makes no sense to me to speak of it in terms of "designing," "purpose," "love," or any other human activity or trait. And with that, best wishes and goodbye for now.pubdef
January 13, 2009
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Pubdef --I don’t see that at all. If there is a God but I see only some small, slim chance that there is, what just basis could there be for God’s existence to be “consequential? Sometimes typing in WordPress causes thoughts to come out garbled -- I know that has happened to me -- but I'm confused by your question. If there is a God, God's existence is consequential. Let's just agree on that point. ” More to the point, as a question of rationality, are you really saying it is rational to make a decision based entirely on consequences, with no regard whatsoever for likelihood? That's almost the opposite of what I am saying. A risk/benefit analysis is always something to consider but that's not even close to what I'm getting at. Leave aside the nature of God and just consider the nature of the universe. Is it possible for the universe to come about without design? The likelihood, given what we know about nature, is 0. To think that it could have is to have faith in some unknown force for which there is not a scintilla of evidence for its existence. In fact, the only reason to even posit the existence of such a force is pure emotion i.e. God can't exist so this unknown force must exist. Conversely, the likelihood of the universe being designed is basically 1.tribune7
January 13, 2009
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pubdef, It's consequential because of the nature of the claim. Just like small traces of anthrax in your pancakes would be highly consequential.Clive Hayden
January 13, 2009
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#59 tribune7:
Thinking that there might be some small, slim chance that there is a God and saying it is not consequential is irrationality to the degree of delusion.
I don't see that at all. If there is a God but I see only some small, slim chance that there is, what just basis could there be for God's existence to be "consequential?" More to the point, as a question of rationality, are you really saying it is rational to make a decision based entirely on consequences, with no regard whatsoever for likelihood?pubdef
January 13, 2009
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#56 crandaddy:
But if God exists, then that means he created you. And if he created you then that means you were made to serve a divine purpose; this, in turn, means that your very reason for existing is to fulfill God’s divine purpose in making you. Would it not, therefore, be reasonable to conclude that the locus of your heart’s desires resides, ultimately, in him since he fashioned you according to his own perfect choosing? In sum, I must rather strongly disagree. If God exists, then anything else that has any true value has that value only by virtue of having God as its source of being, which makes God’s value infinite.
So God's value is either infinity (if I accept 100% of your characterization of God)or zero. You're making a lot of assumptions about the nature of God, starting with "creation" and "purpose." And, you seem to be denying any possibility of individual identity.pubdef
January 13, 2009
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Let me get this straight: if you’re undecided about whether there is a god, you have not thought deeply enough about it No. If you are undecided about the existence of God you could very well be thinking quite deeply about it. but if you decide that there isn’t, that’s faith. And not just faith, but blind faith assuming you have thought deeply enough about it. If you decide that there is, is that faith also? Now, that's an interesting question considering how faith is almost synonymous with a a belief in God. To believe in an uncaused cause requires no faith and to believe that this uncaused cause is a designer doesn't really require that much either. Now, to believe that this designer has a particular nature and particular plan for us -- does it want us to love our neighbor or capture him for sacrifice -- does require an element of faith. The amount of faith needed to believe in a God who is love, however, is infinitely less than to believe there is no designer.tribune7
January 13, 2009
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#49 tribune7:
To dismiss the most important question we face requires extraordinarily blind faith. . . implies that someone cannot come to the conclusion that “there is probably no god” after long and careful thought.
Well, yes. If you conclude “there is probably no God” you have not thought deeply enough about it. If you conclude “there is no God” you are exhibiting a faith to rival a pastafarian.
Let me get this straight: if you're undecided about whether there is a god, you have not thought deeply enough about it; but if you decide that there isn't, that's faith. If you decide that there is, is that faith also? So what's the point of thinking so hard if either decision you come to is based on faith?? Meanwhile -- I will readily admit to sharing the "faith" of a pastafarian; I believe in satire.pubdef
January 13, 2009
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"Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the result of intelligence." -- William A. Dembski "Study of" being the operative. 1- detect design 2- study it And BTW in the absence of direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to scientifically answer the other questions*, is by studying the design in question. *who, how, when, where and/ or why, which all prove that ID is NOT a science stopper as NOTHING prevents anyone to pursue those questions. see also pages 111-112 of No Free Lunch.Joseph
January 13, 2009
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----Laminar: "IF there IS a god then that doesn’t automatically imply a purpose for us, we may just be a side effect, and even if we have a purpose you can’t guarantee that it would be to our liking if we ever determined what it is." ----"For what purpose did god create Hitler - Entertainment?" Morality is a function of goodness, and goodness if a function of purpose. So, the question is, what is a good person? Well, what is a “good” anything? If something is good, it operates the way of was designed and intended to perform. What is a good can-opener? It is one that opens cans efficiently and easily. What is a good pencil? It is one that writes well. Can a pencil be a good can opener? No, and if it tries, not only will it fail to open the can, it will destroy itself in the process. What is a good person? A good person is one who lives appropriately or according to his own created nature. Since God made both the person and his corresponding nature, only God can establish an appropriate morality that reconciles one with the other. Among all earthly creatures, only man has the power to resist his created purpose and pervert his own nature. When he does so, he ends up just like a pencil who tries to become a can opener. By trying to be something he is not, namely a little god, he not only fails to become human, he becomes subhuman and destroys himself in the process.StephenB
January 13, 2009
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Laminar said: "I get the impression, perhaps wrongly, that some on this forum regard the argument “If god doesn’t exist then we have no ultimate purpose” as some kind of evidence or argument against evolution. It isn’t in any way." Not if you read carefully. They might believe as I do that if God doesn't exist then we have no ultimate purpose. How could we as we are just accidents of material forces which have no purpose. Also one of the premises of this site is that evolution did not happen entirely by naturalistic means. The evidence strongly suggests that. Many believe as I used to that evolution proceeded along Darwinian lines and it had/s no affect on their religious beliefs. Certainly some use the conclusion that evolution is not entirely naturalistic to justify a creator for people debating the issue. Especially when many claim the reason they are atheists is because Darwinian processes explain life and this means there is no need for a God. So their disbelief in God is based on false beliefs. Those who believe there is a creator further argue that there then must be some reason for our existence. This latter argument has nothing to do with ID. All this is tenuous which is why the term faith is frequently used. If one had certainty, the term faith would be inappropriate. Thus, while you may call it obeying orders for nearly everyone it is doing what is thought to be right even when it is personally difficult to do so even when no one is observing their actions and there is also uncertainty. Sometimes even sacrificing what would be very advantageous to you if you did not do what is supposedly recommended by the creator. The orders as you describe them are often very arduous and also often require that you overcome your basic inclinations. Many do not obey the "orders" and I know of no one who has not at least once failed to obey them. This is a debate that has gone on for centuries. We just want to eliminate the wrong impression people have on evolution from the debate.jerry
January 13, 2009
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crandaddy "But if God exists, then that means he created you. And if he created you then that means you were made to serve a divine purpose;" For what purpose did god create Hitler - Entertainment? It is a huge step to go from accepting the idea of an intelligent cause for the universe to knowing whether you or I as individuals were specifically created for a purpose, knowing what that purpose is and knowing if that purpose is good. IF there is NO 'God' then we have no teleological purpose, that's a fact and you would just have to deal with it if it were true. IF there IS a god then that doesn't automatically imply a purpose for us, we may just be a side effect, and even if we have a purpose you can't guarantee that it would be to our liking if we ever determined what it is. I get the impression, perhaps wrongly, that some on this forum regard the argument "If god doesn't exist then we have no ultimate purpose" as some kind of evidence or argument against evolution. It isn't in any way. For those of you who believe you can only have true morality if it has a divine origin then I'm afraid for me this 'I am just following orders' position doesn't cut it as a moral argument. How can you truly make any moral decisions when all you are really doing is following orders? (BTW I'm offering this as a point to debate, I don't claim that the atheistic position is any better or to be preferred - I'm entirely agnostic)Laminar
January 13, 2009
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Suppose you woke up this morning and someone told you “the creature from Alien laid its spawn in your belly last night, and if you don’t drink this potion, the baby monster will burst out of your chest in twenty minutes!” And would you think about the matter "at some length and very seriously" before rejecting the potion?tribune7
January 13, 2009
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Thank you, Mark Frank. I've never been called "spot on" before. It doesn't even have to be something so momentous as a diety or creation myth. Suppose you woke up this morning and someone told you "the creature from Alien laid its spawn in your belly last night, and if you don't drink this potion, the baby monster will burst out of your chest in twenty minutes!" Is it an "important question" whether this claim is true?pubdef
January 13, 2009
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It’s only important if the answer is “yes.” If the answer is “no,” then what is important about it? To me, it is so unlikely that the answer is “yes” that I am quite comfortable saying that, to me, it is not an important question. (It may be “important” in the sense of “interesting” but not in the sense of “consequential.”) Are you saying "there is no God" or there "probably is no God?" If the former, you are exhibiting blind faith. If the latter, you are exhibiting irrationality. Thinking that there might be some small, slim chance that there is a God and saying it is not consequential is irrationality to the degree of delusion.tribune7
January 13, 2009
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pubdef: "This is very important in light of Behe’s assertion (implied if not stated expressly; I won’t be able to cite to anything he’s actually said on this) that it is impossible for the flagellum to have developed in a “random” stepwise fashion. The bar for Behe’s opponents is thus very low; they need only show a possible mechanism in order to justify further investigation within the NDE paradigm." I think you are making some confusion here. Behe has never said that one should not investigate NDE or any aspect of it, including the theory of the darwinian origin of the flagellum. What Behe is saying, IMO, is that any empirical research, whatever its motivations, is really useful if, and only if, the researchers, and the scientific community, are willing to draw the correct empirical conclusions from the result, which includes the ability to admit when a line of research has practically already given an empirical answer to a question. As many other times, I have to stress the word "empirical". It seems that darwinists have ever more often to shift to logical arguments, because they seem to lack empirical arguments. Behe is a biochemist, an empirical scientist. He knows very well that human resources are limited, and that real science has to give real practical answers, and not go on inquiring about what has already been effectively inquired, in the vain hope to find an answer one would like more. That's not how science works. In other words, Behe is not saying that one cannot investigate any plausible model for the flagellum: he is just saying, always IMO, that at some point one should be able to discard those models which have empirically failed. I think he is explicitly referring to trying to demonstrate the unguided origin of the flagellum by looking at all costs for homologies which do not exist, without ever trying to build a credible quantitative model with what is really found. And I perfectly agree with him: that's a line of research which will be proved (or maybe it has already been proved) a failure. At some time, at some point, the scientific community "must" be able to recognize where a specific line of research is going, if empirical research has to keep any meaning. That has nothing to do with stopping science: indeed, that means having faith in empirical science and in its ability to give answers which, even if they are not mathematical demonstrations, and are never absolute truths to be shared dogmatically by all, should at least be respected for their empirical strength, and guide the general orientation of further research.gpuccio
January 13, 2009
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Re #54 and #56 Pubdef is spot on. Anyone can make up a question on the lines of: If X is true then incredible consequences follow. Therefore, the question of whether X is true is of the greatest importance. X could be any of an infinite number of deity and/or creation myths.Mark Frank
January 13, 2009
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