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genetic-id, an instance of design detection? (topic revisited)

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(In an effort to help my IDEA comrades at Cornell I revisit the issue of Genetic-ID. My previous post on the issue caused some confusion so I’m reposting it with some clarifications. I post the topic as something I recommend their group discuss and explore.)

The corporation known as Genetic-ID (ID as in IDentification, not ID as in Intelligent Design) is able to distinguish a Genetically Modified Organism (GMO) from a “naturally occurring” organism. At www.genetic-id.com they claim:

Genetic ID can reliably detect ALL commercialized genetically modified organisms.

I claim that detecting man-made artifacts (like a GMO) is a valid instance of applying the Explanatory Filter.

The Explanatory Filter is used all the time (implicitly):

The key step in formulating Intelligent Design as a scientific theory is to delineate a method for detecting design. Such a method exists, and in fact, we use it implicitly all the time. The method takes the form of a three-stage Explanatory Filter.

I want to emphasize, the Explanatory Filter (EF) is used ALL the time. When ID critics say the EF has never been used to detect anything, they misrepresent what the EF is, because the EF is used ALL the time.

The Explanatory Filter faithfully represents our ordinary practice of sorting through things we alternately attribute to law, chance, or design. In particular, the filter describes

how copyright and patent offices identify theft of intellectual property
….
Entire industries would be dead in the water without the Explanatory Filter. Much is riding on it. Using the filter, our courts have sent people to the electric chair.

(bolding mine)

When we detect design in a physical artifact, we detect the Complex Specified Information (CSI) the artifact evidences. That means we see that a physical artifact conforms to an independent blueprint.

In the Bill’s book, No Free Lunch (NFL), the concept of CSI if formalized. CSI is detected when the information from a physical artifact (physical information) conforms to an independent blueprint or conception (conceptual information). CSI is defined as:

The coincidence of conceptual and physical information where the conceptual information is both identifiable independently of the physical information and also complex.

It is important to note CSI is defined by two pieces of information not just one

CSI is consistent with the basic idea behind information, which is the reduction of possibilities from a reference class of possibilities. But whereas the traditional understanding of information is unary, conceiving of information as a single reduction of possibilities, complex specified information is a binary form of information. Complex specified information , and specified information more generally, depends on a dual reduction of possibilities, namely a conceptual reduction (i.e., conceptual information) combined with a physical reduction (i.e., physical information ).

Genetic-ID uses PCR (polymerase chain reaction) to detect whether an organism has physical characteristics (physical information) which match a known blueprint (conceptual information) for a GMO. This is a relatively simple case of design detection since the pattern matching method is exact and highly specific. Genetic-ID’s technique is a somewhat trivial example of design detection, but I put it on the table to help introduce the concept of the Explanatory Filter in detecting designs at the molecular level.

But how about less specific pattern matches to detect GMO’s? Do you think we could detect a GMO such as this:

Data stored in multiplying bacteria

The scientists took the words of the song It’s a Small World and translated it into a code based on the four “letters” of DNA. They then created artificial DNA strands recording different parts of the song. These DNA messages, each about 150 bases long, were inserted into bacteria such as E. coli and Deinococcus radiodurans.

Or how about this kind of GMO, a terminator/traitor which does not have a published specific architecture : Terminate the Terminator.

Terminator technology (sometimes called TPS-Technology Protection System or GURTs-Genetic Use Restriction Technologies) refers to plants that are genetically engineered to produce sterile seeds. If commercialized, the technology will prevent farmers from saving seed from their harvest for planting the following season. These “suicide seeds” will force farmers to return to the seed corporations every year and will make extinct the 12,000-year tradition of farmers saving, adapting and exchanging seed in order to advance biodiversity and increase food security.

Extending these ideas, can we in principle detect nano-molecular designs such as a nano-molecular computer? If we find a physical molecular artifact conforming to the blueprints of a computer, should we infer design?

With that question in mind, I point to the fact that biological systems are computers, and self-replicating computers on top of that! This fact was not lost upon Albert Voie who tied the problem of the origin-of-life to the fact that the physical artifacts of biology conform to a known blueprint, namely, a self-replicating computer. I commented on Voie’s landmark outline of the origin-of-life problem here.

In as much as biology conforms to the blueprints of a computer, are we justified in inferring design? And finally, are not the claims of Darwinian evolution ultimately claims that blindwatchmakers can create “Gentically Modified Organisms” (so to speak) from pre-existing organisms? What then do we make of Darwinian evolution’s claims?

Comments
I primarily view GeneticID as a good possibility for double-checking the accuracy of the methods of ID (see how many false negatives are generated, etc). Thinking on this issue brought up a question: With the spread and cheapening of technology what is to prevent a ID-hating fanatic from eventually planting an instance of CSI in an organism and then falsely claiming to have documented that this CSI came about by RM+NS, thus falsifying ID by means of identifying a false positive? After all, if ID is such a danger to science as some claim then the ends would justify the means...not to mention in some circles being known as the "person who killed ID" would be quite a career booster.Patrick
May 13, 2006
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Mung, The toughest issue, as I see it: No one has the foggiest idea how to calculate the probabilities of a flagellum evolving. To do so, one would have to condition on things like horizontal transfer, recombination, epistasis, effective population size as well as the prior state of the system. DS is totally wrong that this isn't an example of a design inference. It is completely equivocal to a case in which there are 50 decks of cards in the room, all of them are shuffled but one, and one is asked to pick out the unshuffled deck. The unshuffled deck fits a specified pattern that is unlikely to occur by chance. The sequence of DNA that is present in the GMO organism is also unlikely to occur in the organism by chance (ie, horizontal transfer or spontaneous evolution). How DS distinguishes between a "search for code sequences already known" and identification of a "specified complexity" is totally wrong. According to Dembski, methods used to identify plagiarism (based on the identification of near identical texts) are a design inference. If that it true, then this is a design inference.bdelloid
May 13, 2006
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It seems we have yet another objection. This objection is that yes, this is design detection, it may even be design detection in accordance with the EF, but it's trivial. "The Genetic-ID case is trivial b/c it doesn’t entail any of the toughest issues at the core of the design inference." What are these toughest issues? It seems to me that the toughest issue at the core of the design inference is cases where we cannot discover or trace the causal history back to a designing intelligence. How does identifying a case when we *CAN* discover and trace the causal history become trivial? Why is this not a confirmation of the theory? It adds to the existing knowledge that certain effects can be attributed to intelligent causation. This can only strengthen the design inference, so it is hardly trivial from an ID point of view.Mung
May 13, 2006
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es58 - well put. You hit the nail squarely on the head!antg
May 13, 2006
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this may seem somewhat tangential, but it ultimately gets back to the genetic-ID issue, and I think this may help clarify some key aspects of design inference I don't yet understand: What is the ID-based position on the design status of dna sequences such as those associated with sickle cell anemia? As most of you are no doubt familiar, in certain ecological contexts, namely tropical, being heterozygous for the sickle cell allele confers resistance to malaria. Of course, the prevelance of heterozygotes in these populations necessitates homozygous individuals will be born who have this painful disease. So the question is this: is the malaria resistance designed in the allele? If so, then does this indicate the designer was not capable or otherwise unwilling to employ a superior design that did not entail pain and suffering? Alternatively, if the the malaria resistance allele/phenotype is not designed, it would seem a fortuitous byproduct of an otherwise unfortunate mutation. In *that* case, however, an important and functional phenotype in humans was the byproduct of a random mutation. (While the immediate biological change itself does not constitute irreducible complexity, arguably for the malaria resistance to express as a coherent phenotype an elaborate tapestry of IC molecular biology envelopes and support it) I would like to hear some of your thoughts on the matter. For me it invokes the notion of "functional ambiguity." Functional ambiguity (related to pleiotropy) is a problem when teleology can't be presumed and when you don't have a pre-defined template from the designers, such as Genetic-ID has (from other humans) for its PCR assay. Genetic-ID's approach is: 1. if it's modified, it will have one or more of these pre-defined signatures. 2. The probability of the signature arising idenpendent of modification is very small. 3. If sample X has one or more DNA signatures, the it is most likely the case that its existence is due to human modification. Modification is inferred. Dembski's approach, which seems to me on another plane altogether, is more like: I'm looking at an data...Is it a signature? What's the probability that *this* showed up on its own? if excessively/stupendously high, design should be inferred. While *superficially* similar, the second question is on a different plane entirely b/c it must first identify the signal/system, then come up with criteria for defining the "chance of *this* occurring on its own" given our entire state of knowledge of how the natural world works. That's a whole other level of difficult in my opinion. By having a pre-defined list, Genetic-ID variety inference gets teleology (via humans) for free, functional ambiguity is circumvented, and the only relevant probability to be calculated is the chance of finding those pcr primers (in appropriate orientations and spacings) by chance given the genome size and relative nucleotide frequencies of the organism in question... (which not as hard to calculate as it is to say three times rapidly b/c the relevant parameters are easily assayed) The Genetic-ID case is trivial b/c it doesn't entail any of the toughest issues at the core of the design inference. As such, it seems from my perspective to be trivial to the point of irrelevance.great_ape
May 12, 2006
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We might someday see a proverbial apple that falls up instead of down and at that time we’ll have evidence that the law of gravity has exceptions. Until then, it’s pretty well written in granite that we won’t see any apples falling up.
Every time an apple falls it falls "up" as well as "down." It's just a matter of perspective. There is no violation of gravity in an apple falling "up." Were the sun to move closer to the earth we might observe apples falling "up" all the time. Can we get back to Genetic-ID, GMO and the design argument?Mung
May 12, 2006
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#22, es58, excellent points and it puts both sides to the test. You hit on a current/future problem! I'm sure we'll see the use of new nano-technology like IBM's soon in branding. But... Maybe we should expand the GM test to animals, specifically to transgenic green pigs: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4605202.stm In nature, are the transgenic pigs and their proteins comparable to frogs with green pigmentation? Or is it just specific jellyfish? Or, how many other species contain the same DNA for fluorescent green? Or, can GeneticID build a test specifically for this transfer? "Transgenic" - human intervention and purposeful design. Building upon your question re: patents. If I mass produce "green bunny rabbits" after someone else files a patent. Can't I just say I found a green bunny in my garden one day and it must have evolved the green color from eating meee spinach? Wraaaskally wrabbits! If not, why not? What specific boundaries are being recognized here? Do transgenic green pigs provide a better example for utilizing EF?Michaels7
May 12, 2006
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I'm waiting for the day that Intelligent Design comes up with a PCR reaction to test whether or not the flagellum was designed.Inoculated Mind
May 12, 2006
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As this was posted with a note to the IDEA Club at Cornell I thought you might be interested to note that Allen MacNeill has a reply up hereCornellian
May 12, 2006
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If we had a time machine, and we could transport every evolutionist that existed prior to the discovery of the technology that allows us to create these GMO's to today's world, and locked them in a room with all the newly designed GMO's as data, and neglected to tell them they were designed, we could sit back and watch them generate 10's of 1000's of papers explaining how everyone of the evolved, and they'd be fighting with each other, because each could see the colossal mistakes of the other, but not his own mistakes. But, to the rest of the world they'd present a single face, and insist they're only debating the "details", but certainly there's on controversy whatsoever that the organisms they were studying had evolved. And the "evidence" would be the 10's of 1000's of papers that they had produced. Does this sound familiar to anyone?es58
May 12, 2006
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If the "designer" of a GMO component of arbitrary complexity tries to patent or copyright it, and I mass produce it, he'll sue me. And if I say in court, "you can't prove design" because it's impossible to prove design (ie: there is no validity to the EF), all the Dawkins types say so, would Dawkins be on my side and say: "he's right, it's only an 'appearance' of design" I'm sure he wouldn't. But, any evolutionist finding this *exact same pattern* 30 years ago (before we had the technical capabiliity to do this stuff) would be *forced* to conclude that it was the product of RM&NS. So the same pattern which today is "beyond a reasonable doubt" seen as the product of design, would, 30 years ago, have been unquestionably seen as the product of evolution. If there is no such thing as a valid EF, how can they *insist* it didn't evolve in court and find me at fault? Maybe I found a version that *did* evolve? For them to *prove* I didn't would seem to require them to admit that design can be detectedes58
May 12, 2006
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Also,

DS - you are pointing out one of the major problems that many have raised with the EF. The EF is dependent of the idea that the categories are mutually exclusive. As you have shown with the person with the artificial hip joint, the categories design and not-design are not mutually exclusive. This is a major problem with the EF that has not been fully addressed.

One only has to show one instance of non-human design. It is not a problem for the EF if it cannot positively identify every scrap of code on the DNA molecule as designed or not designed. EF is not dependent on the categories being mutually exclusive. It is dependent on finding one case and one case only giving a positive. The possibility for false negatives is understood. The real problem area is in probalistic resources. The EF must at some point presume that all probalistic resources are known and accounted for. The objection has been made, both by myself and others, that one cannot describe and account for resources one is unaware of. In the case of a protein, for instance, we don't know how many alternative amino acid sequences will function as well, or well enough, to work in place of the sequence under scrutiny. Computer modeling of protein folding should go a long way towards characterizing that particular probalistic resource problem. So far, such modelling capability has eluded us. At some point however, one presumes that the search for unknown resources is exhaustive and thus the description is complete. This is always tentative in science and is no unsurmountable impediment. We might someday see a proverbial apple that falls up instead of down and at that time we'll have evidence that the law of gravity has exceptions. Until then, it's pretty well written in granite that we won't see any apples falling up. So while I feel that a reasonably certain positive from the EF is not here yet, it's certainly a live possibility until proven otherwise. -ds bdelloid
May 12, 2006
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ds makes a valid point that one cannot jump from "contains" to "is." However, the point is hardly a substantive one. The substance is to be found elswhere in dave's comment. ds admits that GMO wheat "contains a designed artifact." But for some reason or other (or lack thereof), when we actually go about examining wheat to see if it is GMO wheat, we are not performing design detection. So could someone please clarify for mw what the objection actually is? Is it that we are not doing design detection? Or is it that we are doing design detection, but we are not doing design detection in accordance with the EF? Is the argument that Dembski's EF is not a reliable way to detect design, or is the argument agnostic on that point, and rather that the EF is not the method of design detection being employed in the case of detecting GMOs? Can we at least try to identify the fundamental objections here? So who is arguing that there is no design detection of any sort whatsoever going on here, and who is arguing that there is, but it's not according to the EF?Mung
May 12, 2006
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This is absolutely design detection as explained in the Design Inference. The DNA sequence at issue here is an example of specified complexity. Sal is 100 % correct. Plus, one can reasonably calculate the probabilities at hand here.

One can calculate the exact probabilities using the same exact method that was employed by the IBM engineers that were lauded here for finding putatative function in non-coding DNA.

Unlike the flagellum, this is an example of Design Inference based on reasonable probability arguments. The probability calculation for the flagellum, as written in NFL, doesn't get anywhere as close to an example of design detection. For one, the NFL calculation doesn't also show how the flagellum is specified (other than bold face assertion that it looks like an outboard motor), so that argument is the equivalent to saying a shuffled deck can't happen by chance because of low probability. In the case pointed out by Sal, we have a SPECIFIED PATTERN of nucleotides, so it is a much better example for the design inference as discussed in Dembski's first book.

This is not design detection. It is a search for code sequences already known to be designed. -ds bdelloid
May 12, 2006
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Tiax wrote:

But they aren’t looking at the organisms and asking if they exhibit evidence of design. They’re asking if they’re on the list of GMOs. That’s as far as it goes. You could put a ‘natural’ organism on the GMO list, and they could tell you if what you give them is a match. Design never enters the picture.

To take the car analogy, they’re taking an object and asking, “Is this a car?” They aren’t finding the car and then asking if it’s designed.

Whenever one discriminates a lump of matter as a designed artifact from lumps of matter that are not designed, it is still a design detection. The way one realizes a lump of matter might be designed is that it conforms to a pattern such as the conceptual pattern of "car" or "watch" or "GMO". I pointed out where you equivocated, and you simply repeated the equivocation.

The question is not whether cars, watches, GMOs are designed, the question is whether a physical artifact is designed because it conforms to the conceptual pattern of a car, watch, or GMOs etc.

Let me spell it out for you:

One infers that a lump of matter is a car because it conforms to the pattern of a car. A car is desinged, therefore that lump of matter is considered designed.

One infers a grain of wheat is a GMO because it passes genetic-ID's test. GMO's are designed, therefore that grain of wheat is designed (as far as it being a GMO or naturally occuring grain).

Here are quote from one of Bill's books:

Taken in its most fundamental sense, the word design denotes a pattern or blueprint.

Design Inference page 8

Just about anything that happens is highly improbable event, but when a highly improbable event is also specified (i.e., conforms to an independently given pattern) undirected natural causes lose their explanatory power.

Opening of Design Inference

The word "event" I use interchangeably with artifact, but hopefully the reader who has Bill's books will see that "event" applies equally well to physical static artifacts such as mount rushmore.

The blueprints for computers and self-replicating automata have been around long before we realized cells conformed to them so well. The blueprint therefore is considered detachable and independent and not post dictive. A cell conforms to a self-replicating computer, self-replicating computers are designed, therefore the cell is designed.

The same can be said of blueprints for GMO or copyrighted material or patented objects. (Note: The blueprints are independent in the sense they are not post-dictive. And just for clarification, independence and detachability do not mean the blueprint could not have been used to guide the physical fabrication of an artifact (like a car, watch, or GMO), it means that the blueprint is not post-dictively drawn to fit the physical artifact. )

At least one basic mistake you're making is calling GMOs "designed artifacts". GMO wheat, for instance, is not a designed artifact. It CONTAINS a designed artifact. By your logic a person with an artificial hip joint becomes a "designed artifact". Does that sound logical to you? -ds scordova
May 12, 2006
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"as I understand it, the PCR technique is not really specific enough to indicate a pattern match at the nucleotide level across an entire target nucleotide sequence. It is the combination of the specificity of the primers (a relatively small subset of the actual target sequence) and the length of the PCR product that returns a positive match." Good point, although they don't go in to too much detail on their website. It is possible that if they get a correct length match with the PCR they then sequence it. Thinking about it, this could be said to be using the explanatory filter if we say that a particular sequence known to be a GMO, once found, has a very low probability of occuring randomly, and confroms to some kind of specification. This doesn't appear to be a good example if you are going to argue for detecting non-human design in organisms though, becuase in this case we are able to calculate the relevant probabilities with some confidence.Chris Hyland
May 12, 2006
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This is simply not comparable with the problem of determining if a naturally occuring DNA sequence was designed by a non-human designer.
The DNA in "naturally" occuring organisms conforms to a vital component in a self-replicating computer. We do not say "there is no design detection in the cell because we already know in advance that self-replicating computers are designed", actually quite the opposite.scordova
May 11, 2006
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Scordova- But they aren't looking at the organisms and asking if they exhibit evidence of design. They're asking if they're on the list of GMOs. That's as far as it goes. You could put a 'natural' organism on the GMO list, and they could tell you if what you give them is a match. Design never enters the picture. To take the car analogy, they're taking an object and asking, "Is this a car?" They aren't finding the car and then asking if it's designed. The same with the watch. They're picking up items in the forest and saying, "Are any of these watches?" They aren't saying that anything looks designed, or doesn't look designed. All they're doing is taking two things and comparing them. Is the sequence in the DNA the same as the sequence on our list of known GMOs? As I believe has been pointed out, this is the same technology as a paternity test, in which they do the exact same thing. They take the child's DNA and ask, "Does this match the DNA in the father?"Tiax
May 11, 2006
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Tiax wrote:

they aren’t detecting design. What they’re doing is detecting known sequences which they already know to be designed. In other words, they never have to ask whether or not something is designed, because the list of what is and is not designed is a given.

There is a Fallacy of Equivocation in the above quotation which I will point out with a bit of hyperbole.

Let's assume out in the forest you found an object which was made of metal and glass and other substances. You conclude the physical object conforms to the architecture of a watch. In fact, given that it's ticking and doing all sorts of things it is surely a watch. I doubt anyone would say, "we're not really detecting that this object is designed since we know watches are designed already."

How about stumbling on a lump of metal an silicon and other things in the grass. It turns out this object conforms to the architecture of a cell phone (which by the way, the modern cell phones have computers to manage it's many features, and motors for the vibration ring). I doubt anyone would say, "we're not really detecting design since we already know cell phones and computers and motors are designed, therefore we won't say this cell phone is designed."

How about stumbling upon a computer or a motor in a cell. I hope no one will say, "we really don't see design since we already know motors and computers are designed."

The error in Tiax's assertion is a Fallacy of Equivocation. This fallacy occurs many times in these discussions.

The question is NOT whether the GMO conceptual architecture was designed, the question is whether the physical object (such as a piece of corn) has physical evidence indicating it is a designed versus a physical object naturally occurring.

Tiax's assertion equivocated the issue of conceptually designing a pattern (conceiving an architecture for a GMO) and physically designing the artifact (manufacturing the GMO).

There are three aspects of design in a GMO:

1. design of the sequence and blueprint of the GMO (conceptual design)
2. design of the physical artifact (physical design)

3. the coincidence of #1 and #2 (CSI)

#1 was being equivocated for #3. CSI deals with detecting #3. I already pointed out the definition of CSI entails dual pieces of information, not just one.

Genetic-ID allows us to tell if a physical object conforms to a conceptual pattern, thus we are able to tell if a piece of corn is a GMO or a naturally occurring artifact. The question is not whether GMO's are designed (that is a given), the question is whether a particular PHYSICAL artifact is a GMO and therefore designed, much in the same way we would conclude an object is designed because it conforms to the architecture of a watch.

That's utter nonsense. Tiax's response contains no logical fallacies. What he said is exactly right and painfully obvious. -ds scordova
May 11, 2006
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Here's another angle to consider: as I understand it, the PCR technique is not really specific enough to indicate a pattern match at the nucleotide level across an entire target nucleotide sequence. It is the combination of the specificity of the primers (a relatively small subset of the actual target sequence) and the length of the PCR product that returns a positive match. That is, you're talking about a relatively high probability threshold for concluding a true positive result in the case of GMO detection. And yet the critics are claiming this is simple detection of a known design. That's probably why they are so eager to label this a "red herring." Put another way, the probability that basic Genetic-ID-style PCR methodology will return a false positive is very low, but not [i]that[/i] low. Yet it's obviously considered to be reliable.Jon_Ensminger
May 11, 2006
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How to Really Detect Design While I'm picking on Dembski's blog, I figured I'd critique another entry there, this one written by Salvador Cordova. Sal is a congenial fellow, most of the time at least, so I'll spare him the snark and get right to the point.Sunbeams From Cucumbers
May 11, 2006
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ds: "What Genetic ID does is no more design detection than it would be looking for a Circle C brand on a steer to detect whether it belongs to the Circle C ranch."

But does a trademark need to be CSI in order to be effective as a trademark? For example, for the Circle C brand:

1. What's the probability of the steer encountering a naturally occurring object as hot as a branding iron (for example) and living to 'tell' about it? -- Brush fire? Lightning?
2. Given #1, what's the probability of the object creating only a surface burn wound?
3. Given #'s 1 & 2, what' the probability of the wound being in the form a precise circle?
4. Given #'s 1, 2, & 3, what's the probability that located within the circle would be a pattern corresponding to one (or a few) of the 26 characters of the Roman alphabet?
Etc.

Is the overall probability less than the UPB? How about if one sees two steers with the Circle C? How about a herd?

1. steer are very likely to have odd shaped scars 2. the mark needs to be what everyone from small children up would intuitively call "unique" 3. probably quite good - circles are common in nature 4. a C inside a perfect circle makes it unique and unlikely to be a natural scar (people know this without being told) Are you done belaboring the obvious now? -ds j
May 11, 2006
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"All Genetic ID does is search for >>> ALREADY KNOWN TO BE ARTIFICIAL Mung
May 11, 2006
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This is a sample of what the Cornell IDEA club will be using to argue against Professor MacNeill? If so then I'm afraid I underestimated the thrashing MacNeill is going to deliver unto them.DaveScot
May 11, 2006
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All Genetic ID does is search for >>>ALREADY KNOWN TO BE ARTIFICIAL< << DNA sequences in DNA samples from foods suspected of being genetically engineered. The only problem being solved here is the technical difficulty of testing a DNA sample quickly and cheaply for dozens of known genetically engineered DNA sequences. This is simply not comparable with the problem of determining if a naturally occuring DNA sequence was designed by a non-human designer. What Genetic ID does is no more design detection than it would be looking for a Circle C brand on a steer to detect whether it belongs to the Circle C ranch.

Unfortunately I've been overruled about closing this comment thread so let the ridicule from the peanut gallery begin. Just keep it civil and it won't be deleted.

DaveScot
May 11, 2006
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Forgive me if I have some doubts about the ability to detect design. It seems to me that humans are so clever, they could easily design something that would fool very sophisticated design-detection. Take quantum theory. Clearly a mathematical model that has been designed by humans. We know it is not the "truth" because it doesn't properly account for gravity, so it is an artefact. Would a pattern generated by a simulation model based on quantum theory be able to pass the test? What I'm trying to say is that I believe certain "unsophisticated" designs might be identified as such, but certainly not all, perhaps only a vanishingly small subset of all designs that occur in nature.Raevmo
May 11, 2006
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"Genetic-ID (ID as in IDentification, not ID as in Intelligent Design) is able to distinguish a Genetically Modified Organism (GMO) from a “naturally occurring” organism." Were this true, I might agree with you. However, they aren't really distinguishing between a GMO and a naturally occuring organism. They're distinguishing -known- GMOs from everything else, including unknown GMOs and naturally occuring organisms. Because of this, they aren't detecting design. What they're doing is detecting known sequences which they already know to be designed. In other words, they never have to ask whether or not something is designed, because the list of what is and is not designed is a given.Tiax
May 11, 2006
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Thank you everyone for you comments so far. Bill said he expected vigorous discussion of this topic. I think what you all offer here will be informative to him regarding his work and how he can convey the ideas of the EF. The reasons I offered up quotations from his writings such as "Such a method exists, and in fact, we use it implicitly all the time" is to show that the implicit application of the EF happens all the time. If so, are calculations done in all such cases? I personally think explicit calculations are a sufficient but not necessary part of making a design detection. For example, consider this scenario: let's say genetic-ID is present 1000 blind samples, and they achieve a 100% true positive identificaiton rate with a few false negatives (that is permissible for an instance of the EF). That would implicitly show the artificats have sufficient complexity to allow successful detection method within a certain degree of reliability. I would presume a mathematician could affix a minimum complexity score on the artifact based on the efficacy of the detection method. Thus one has an empirical means of qualifying an instance of the EF without that instance of the EF explicitly making a probability calculation. If the number detections increased, the complexity score affixed to the artifacts in question would rise as our confidence in the design detection grew. This however his my take on the issue, Bill would be the best resource to comment on whether GMO detection as done by genetic-ID is a valid instance of the EF. I believe it is, and it is my hope he is reading our comments and he'll weigh in. Salvadorscordova
May 11, 2006
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Chris -- I agree completely, I'm not sure how this relates to Dembski's proposals. Perhaps later we could hypothetically apply Dembski's criterion to the problem and see what the numbers churn out. I think this would be a great future research application for ID.JosephCCampana
May 11, 2006
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"Finding previously known artificial patterns amid natural patterns is indeed design detection." I agree, I just don't think it is analogous to Dembski's method because it requires knowledge of the designer. Even if we imagine that the processes involved in genetic engineering leave some kind of trace, so you don't need knowledge of all commerically available GMOs, this still holds.Chris Hyland
May 11, 2006
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