Getting the facts right on “unbelief”

_{Denyse O'Leary

June 17, 2019

Atheism, Intelligent Design, theism}

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This item somehow missed the post last night. A study of atheists and agnostics, funded by Templeton, came up with some illuminating facts:

2. In all six of our countries, majorities of unbelievers identify as having ‘no religion’. Nevertheless, in Denmark fully 28% of atheists and agnostics identify as Christians; in Brazil the figure is 18%. 8% of Japan’s unbelievers say they are Buddhists. Conversely, in Brazil (79%), the USA (63%), Denmark (60%), and the UK (52%), a majority of unbelievers were brought up as Christians. (1.1, 1.2)
3. Relatively few unbelievers select ‘Atheist’ or ‘Agnostic’ as their preferred (non)religious or secular identity. 38% of American atheists opt for ‘Atheist’, compared to just 19% of Danish atheists. Other well-known labels – ‘humanist’, ‘free thinker’, ‘sceptic’, ‘secular’ – are the go-to identity for only small proportions in each country. (1.3)
Unbelief in God doesn’t necessarily entail unbelief in other supernatural phenomena. Atheists and (less so) agnostics exhibit lower levels of supernatural belief than do the wider populations. However, only minorities of atheists or agnostics in each of our countries appear to be thoroughgoing naturalists. (2.2, 2.3 More. –

Stephen Sullivant, Miguel Farias, Jonathan Lanman, Lois Lee, Understanding Unbelief: Atheists and agnostics around the world – Interim findings from 2019 research in Brazil, China, Denmark, Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States

It would appear to explain a lot. Read the rest; it’s free.

See also: Why is the New York Times into witchcraft now? The good news is, we have far less to fear from hexes than from anti-free speech legislation and crackdowns on academic freedom at the universities. We really must encourage them all to spend more time, much more time, on hexes.

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Comments

If I may interject, see Asauber's #24, ET.Axel_{June 20, 2019
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ID doesn't require God nor a belief in God. ID doesn't require the supernatural. ID is contra to materialism.ET_{June 20, 2019
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BA77, I agree with your 'denialism' inclusion. See, the more the Atheist is honest with himself about what he doesn't know, the greater the possibility of God becomes. This is glaringly obvious to people outside Atheist circles. Andrewasauber_{June 20, 2019
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GOD, GODS, AND FAIRIES by David Bentley Hart - June 2013 One of the strangest claims often made by purveyors and consumers of today’s popular atheism is that disbelief in God involves no particular positive philosophy of reality,,,, it is absurd to think that one can profess atheism in any meaningful way without thereby assenting to an entire philosophy of being, however inchoate one’s sense of it may be. The philosophical naturalist’s view of reality is not one that merely fails to find some particular object within the world that the theist imagines can be described there; it is a very particular representation of the nature of things, entailing a vast range of purely metaphysical commitments. Principally, it requires that one believe that the physical order, which both experience and reason say is an ensemble of ontological contingencies, can exist entirely of itself, without any absolute source of actuality. It requires also that one resign oneself to an ultimate irrationalism: For the one reality that naturalism can never logically encompass is the very existence of nature (nature being, by definition, that which already exists); it is a philosophy, therefore, surrounded, permeated, and exceeded by a truth that is always already super naturam, and yet a philosophy that one cannot seriously entertain except by scrupulously refusing to recognize this. It is the embrace of an infinite paradox: the universe understood as an “absolute contingency.” It may not amount to a metaphysics in the fullest sense, since strictly speaking it possesses no rational content—it is, after all, a belief that all things rest upon something like an original moment of magic—but it is certainly far more than the mere absence of faith. https://www.firstthings.com/article/2013/06/god-gods-and-fairies
Myself, I hold the primary prerequisite of atheism to be 'denialism': Studies establish that the design inference is ‘knee jerk’ inference that is built into everyone, especially including atheists, and that atheists have to mentally work suppressing their “knee jerk” design inference!
Is Atheism a Delusion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? - October 17, 2012 Excerpt: "Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find." The article describes a test by Boston University's psychology department, in which researchers found that "despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose" ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html Richard Dawkins take heed: Even atheists instinctively believe in a creator says study - Mary Papenfuss - June 12, 2015 Excerpt: Three studies at Boston University found that even among atheists, the "knee jerk" reaction to natural phenomenon is the belief that they're purposefully designed by some intelligence, according to a report on the research in Cognition entitled the "Divided Mind of a disbeliever." The findings "suggest that there is a deeply rooted natural tendency to view nature as designed," writes a research team led by Elisa Järnefelt of Newman University. They also provide evidence that, in the researchers' words, "religious non-belief is cognitively effortful." Researchers attempted to plug into the automatic or "default" human brain by showing subjects images of natural landscapes and things made by human beings, then requiring lightning-fast responses to the question on whether "any being purposefully made the thing in the picture," notes Pacific-Standard. "Religious participants' baseline tendency to endorse nature as purposefully created was higher" than that of atheists, the study found. But non-religious participants "increasingly defaulted to understanding natural phenomena as purposefully made" when "they did not have time to censor their thinking," wrote the researchers. The results suggest that "the tendency to construe both living and non-living nature as intentionally made derives from automatic cognitive processes, not just practised explicit beliefs," the report concluded. The results were similar even among subjects from Finland, where atheism is not a controversial issue as it can be in the US. "Design-based intuitions run deep," the researchers conclude, "persisting even in those with no explicit religious commitment and, indeed, even among those with an active aversion to them." http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/richard-dawkins-take-heed-even-atheists-instinctively-believe-creator-says-study-1505712
i.e. It is not that Atheists do not see purpose and/or Design in nature and biology, it is that Atheists, for whatever severely misguided reason, live in denial of the purpose and/or Design that they themselves see in nature. And yes, ‘denialism’ is considered a mental illness.
In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person's choice to deny reality, as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth. Denialism - Wikipedia
bornagain77_{June 20, 2019
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"Andrew- It all depends on how you are defining “atheist”. So, how are you defining “atheist”?" ET, I am using the simple definition of "someone who believes there is no God." If you explore this position, you discover that it relies on a whole bunch of deliberate ignorance or denial or both. The Atheist has to (pretend to) believe that he can perceive all there is to ever know, and therefore there is no God. This is the absurdity of materialism. Andrewasauber_{June 20, 2019
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Andrew- It all depends on how you are defining "atheist". So, how are you defining "atheist"? Seeing that ID does not require God nor a belief in God, why isn't possible to be an atheist and an IDist, for example? ID doesn't require the supernatural and ID is contrary to materialism.ET_{June 20, 2019
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"Not all atheists are materialists, Andrew." I have to disagree with you Hazel. If one is to go as far as a declaration of Atheism, one has to use something to base that belief on. The only thing to base it on is Materialism. Otherwise, God is extremely possible. Andrewasauber_{June 20, 2019
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Not all atheists are materialists, Andrew.hazel_{June 20, 2019
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"trying to find out what their atheistic worldview actually is" An Atheist is not honest at his or her or it's core, so he/she/it isn't going to tell you what's actually going on in their mindless material brains. At the end of the day, this is what all exchanges about worldviews with Atheists invariably resolve into: a waste of time. Andrewasauber_{June 20, 2019
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Bob O'H states that, "You might also want to read the OP and the report it’s based on before telling someone what “their atheistic worldview” is, without first trying to find out what their atheistic worldview actually is.",,, (Says the man who did not even comprehend my posts on his drinking alcohol before claiming I called him a drunk) And what exactly do you think has been going on in this thread thus far 'purely natural' Bob? I first noted that any supernatural beliefs an atheist might hold could be used against his atheism. You objected that you did not hold any supernatural beliefs. I responded that an atheist of 'purely natural' beliefs also winds up in catastrophic epistemological failure. I said " it is very much a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’, situation in regards to any beliefs that you may hold as an atheist whether they be supernatural or not." Thus Bob, perhaps you yourself should hold yourself accountable to the same standard that you are trying to apply to me and actually read something for comprehension before making inane comments on it as you have done thus far so far in this thread.bornagain77_{June 20, 2019
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ba77 @ 18 - You might also want to read the OP and the report it's based on before telling someone what "their atheistic worldview" is, without first trying to find out what their atheistic worldview actually is. A major theme of that report is that there isn't a single atheistic worldview.Bob O'H_{June 20, 2019
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OLV
The Christian scriptures are a collection of important documents written by many authors inspired by God. The councils didn’t write them. They just put them together.
The men who wrote the Scriptures belonged to a Church. The Church authorized and published their writings. The Councils edited the collection that we call the New Testament. That's where the Christian scriptures came from. We say that the Discovery Institute produces writings on ID. The texts, written by various authors, belong to the DI.
The Wikipedia definition for religion does not work for Christianity.
Ok? Your opinion is noted but it is not logical, coherent or historically accurate. Christianity has all of the markings of what we call "a religion". To deny this you have to create your own definition of religion, or your own definition of Christianity - which is what many people try to do. But what authority do you have to define what Christianity is or isn't? It is like me saying that the United States is not a country. My opinion would be worthless. A religion, among other things, is a system of beliefs that a person can adhere to and be a member of. If Christianity is not a religion, then there would be no difference between a Christian and a non-Christian. And that is what I agreed to. There is a generic Christianity which is not a religion because there is no system of beliefs, nothing to belong to, and no fundamental difference between it and any sort of secular idea one may have.Silver Asiatic_{June 19, 2019
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Bob 'O'H, @ 16
You’re not a very pleasant fellow, are you ba77?
Someone pointing out the reality of a situation is never very pleasant for those who live in a dream world of their own making. You go on,,,
You’re happy to accuse me of being a drunk (@12 and also here), but when called on it claim drinking habit is my own business. Well, if you think it’s my own business, don’t bring it up.
Number one, my exact words in 12 were,
But don’t worry too much Bob, your old mental disease of denialism, and perhaps lots of alcohol, will help keep you from ever having to honestly deal with the catastrophic epistemological failure that permeates your atheistic worldview.
The phrase 'perhaps lots of alcohol' is not a personal reference to how much you may or may not drink, I don't even know how much you personally drink, it is a reference to the fact that some people who want to escape problems in this life, i.e. a divorce, a death of a loved one, loss of a job, etc.., often turn to alcohol to avoid having to deal honestly with those problems. Number two, the link you provided, that you said showed I accused you of being a drunk yet again, did not even mention drinking at all but mentioned, 'denialism'
Well Bob O’H how you ‘seriously’ propose to get around the elephant in the living room problem of Chirality at the origin of life I have no idea. I guess denying it is a problem, as you, apparently, are doing right now, might be one way to go about it. :) But others not so enamored to deny that monumental problems exist, might not find your particular ‘scientific’ method of denialism so appealing.
Thus, you are falsely imagining that I am calling you a drunk. I did no such thing. But now that you have taken such offence to an off hand comment that I made, it has me wondering if your drinking is more problematic for you than it ought to be. You then go on to state
You also accuse my of having a mental disease, but U don’t think you’re a psychiatrist. And you back it up by saying it’s not you, and quote a video by a “Phillip C”, who I’m guessing is also you. So you’re not accusing be of mental illness because I am, because you said so? You could at least have the courage of your convictions.
Again my exact words were.
" I assure you it is not me that is accusing you of being insane, it is your own atheistic worldview that renders that judgement against you."
To back up that claim, I referenced the end of a video that I had made,,,
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, – Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – 39:45 minute mark https://youtu.be/8rzw0JkuKuQ?t=2387
Again, it is not me that is forcing you into such an insane position, it is your own atheistic worldview that is forcing you into such insanity. Take the first claim that I made, "the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..),", Now to make this point even more clear for you, the first part of this following video has Jerry Coyne stating to his class, "You are robots made out of meat. Which is what I am going to try to convince you of today"
"You are robots made out of meat. Which is what I am going to try to convince you of today" Jerry Coyne - No, You're Not a Robot Made Out of Meat (Science Uprising 02) - video https://youtu.be/rQo6SWjwQIk?list=PLR8eQzfCOiS1OmYcqv_yQSpje4p7rAE7-&t=20
Jerry Coyne is far from the only atheistic professor making such an insane claim, Daniel Dennett claimed that ‘nobody is conscious … we are all zombies’
“(Daniel) Dennett concludes, ‘nobody is conscious … we are all zombies’.” J.W. SCHOOLER & C.A. SCHREIBER – Experience, Meta-consciousness, and the Paradox of Introspection – 2004
Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT, writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules".
Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html
Now Bob O'H, if you walked into a psychiatrist's office and stated that you were not really a real a person but were instead a 'meat robot', you would rightly be classified as having a mental disorder. But in academia stating such insanity is apparently cause for giving someone tenure. Again, it is not me 'accusing' atheists of being insane, it is the atheist's own atheistic worldview that renders that judgement against them when it forces the leading proponents of atheism to claim that they do not really exist as a real person but are instead a 'meat robot'. And if you really think that claiming you are a 'meat robot' is not an insane position for an atheist to hold, well all I can say is that you have been in academia, surrounded by fellow atheists who tolerate and condone such insanity, way too long.
More on John Searle and Free Will - Michael Egnor - July 27, 2016 Excerpt: "The denial of free will is a psychiatric, not philosophical, issue." https://evolutionnews.org/2016/07/more_on_john_se/
bornagain77_{June 19, 2019
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SA @11, regarding PV @4: “The Christian Scriptures come from the Christian religion – from it’s hierarchy, Councils and Church.” The Christian scriptures are a collection of important documents written by many authors inspired by God. The councils didn’t write them. They just put them together. The Wikipedia definition for religion does not work for Christianity.OLV_{June 19, 2019
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You're not a very pleasent fellow, are you ba77? You're happy to accuse me of being a drunk (@12 and also here), but when called on it claim drinking habit is my own business. Well, if you think it's my own business, don't bring it up. You also accuse my of having a mental disease, but U don't think you're a psychiatrist. And you back it up by saying it's not you, and quote a video by a "Phillip C", who I'm guessing is also you. So you're not accusing be of mental illness because I am, because you said so? You could at least have the courage of your convictions.Bob O'H_{June 19, 2019
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I would classify myself as an atheist, but if you asked me which religious tenets I most identify with I would say Christian. Which is not surprising given that I was raised in a society that was largely Christian.Brother Brian_{June 18, 2019
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Bob O'H, "Because whatever views I hold, you’ll accuse me of being insane and a drunk." Well your drinking habit is your own business, but I assure you it is not me that is accusing you of being insane, it is your own atheistic worldview that renders that judgement against you. Again,,,
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, – Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – 39:45 minute mark https://youtu.be/8rzw0JkuKuQ?t=2387
bornagain77_{June 18, 2019
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Thus Bob, it is very much a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’, situation in regards to any beliefs that you may hold as an atheist whether they be supernatural or not.
Because whatever views I hold, you'll accuse me of being insane and a drunk.Bob O'H_{June 18, 2019
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Well Bob O'H, I take it from your comment that you do not believe in anything that might be considered supernatural, (i.e. non-material beyond nature).
I’m afraid you’ve missed the point.It’s not about me, the point is that many (but not all) atheists believe in the supernatural. If you want to find out more, you should ask them.
The problem for you 'purely natural/material Bob' is that not only can I use any supernatural claim that an atheist may make against his atheism, I can also use the purely natural/material beliefs, such as your own beliefs, against his atheism as well.
Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, – Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – 39:45 minute mark https://youtu.be/8rzw0JkuKuQ?t=2387
Thus, although the Darwinist may firmly believes he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for methodological naturalism), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinists/Atheists are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Thus Bob, it is very much a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't', situation in regards to any beliefs that you may hold as an atheist whether they be supernatural or not. But don't worry too much Bob, your old mental disease of denialism, and perhaps lots of alcohol, will help keep you from ever having to honestly deal with the catastrophic epistemological failure that permeates your atheistic worldview. Of course that will not prevent the rest of us from wondering what in the hell is wrong with you.bornagain77_{June 18, 2019
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PV
Christianity is not a religion. It’s a personal relationship between the Christians and their Lord/Savior.
That's a religious tenet or belief. You are defining a religion - providing the rules and procedures.
In most religions salvation is at the end. In Christianity it’s at the beginning...
Christianity is a different religion from others, yes.
God has revealed Himself generally to all through His marvelous creation, and specially to His people through His word recorded in the scriptures.
Scriptures are texts believed to be revealed by God, which give the norms, history and meaning to a religion. The Christian Scriptures come from the Christian religion - from it's hierarchy, Councils and Church. But anyway, I understand your view and I think I stated it. There is a generic sort of Christianity which attempts to dispense with all received teaching, history, community life, churches, authority - and tries to be entirely subjective and individualistic. We could say that kind of Christianity is not a religion, true. It's just some opinions about various things that might have something to do with the idea of Jesus Christ.Silver Asiatic_{June 18, 2019
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ba77 - I'm afraid you've missed the point.It's not about me, the point is that many (but not all) atheists believe in the supernatural. If you want to find out more, you should ask them. There is a lot of variation in thought amongst atheists, just as there is amongst Christians.Bob O'H_{June 18, 2019
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Bob O'H states "don’t conflate atheism with naturalism." Okie Dokie,,, And exactly what sorts of supernatural, (i.e. non-material beyond nature), beliefs do you cling to Bob? :) Warning Bob, any answer that you give will be used against your atheism! :)bornagain77_{June 18, 2019
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I think this is very relevant for the discussions here:
Atheists and (less so) agnostics exhibit lower levels of supernatural belief than do the wider populations. However, only minorities of atheists or agnostics in each of our countries appear to be thoroughgoing naturalists.
i.e. don't conflate atheism with naturalism.Bob O'H_{June 18, 2019
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ScuzzaMan @ 5
There isn’t a single non-religious person on this planet, and never has been.
I am Spart...non-religious!Seversky_{June 17, 2019
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The problem is the corporate, atheist billionaires, who are allowed to pay the piper. Period.Axel_{June 17, 2019
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The biggest problem with these surveys is that people lie. There are a small percentage of self-styled atheists who actually understand the necessary logical and philosophical implications of materialism. Nearly all of that minority insist that those necessary logical implications are true because they are simply too proud and stubborn to give up the initial error that led them to this dead-end position. The multiverse is a classic example of this type of idiocy, as is the "illusion of consciousness" claim, as is the "we're not wired for truth" pose. That's all these things are; public poses adopted to avoid admitting to earlier error once the implications of that error become undeniable. There isn't a single non-religious person on this planet, and never has been. There are simply some people who recognise and acknowledge the religious nature of our beliefs (and consequent behaviours), and there are some people who do not.ScuzzaMan_{June 17, 2019
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SA, Christianity is not a religion. It's a personal relationship between the Christians and their Lord/Savior. In most religions salvation is at the end. In Christianity it's at the beginning. In most religions one does things to please god hoping to gain god's favor at the end. In Christianity one does things to please, honor, worship and give glory to God because He poured His amazing grace on us right at the beginning. There's nothing we could have done to gain His favor, so He provided the Way for us to be eternally reconciled with our Creator. Grace is undeserved favor. Praise Adonai! God has revealed Himself generally to all through His marvelous creation, and specially to His people through His word recorded in the scriptures. Untitled HymnPaoloV_{June 17, 2019
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SAZ
Christianity is not a religion.
I would think that generic Christianity which is entirely subjective, individualistic, non-doctrinal and amorphous is not a religion. It is indistinguishable from secularism or any number of spiritualities.Silver Asiatic_{June 17, 2019
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SmartAZ: “People in general have no idea what spirituality is about.” Can you explain it? Thanks.PaoloV_{June 17, 2019
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I'm not sure what the point of this post is. People in general have no idea what spirituality is about. If they profess this or that named system it is usually because it seems to suit what they already decided to believe, not because it added anything to their lives. You can spot such people when they speak of "converting" to a religion. No religion offers anything that can be called a conversion. Christianity involves a conversion, and Christianity is not a religion.SmartAZ_{June 17, 2019
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