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Good and bad reasons for rejecting ID

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Although I accept ID, I actually think there are respectable reasons to reject or at least withhold judgment on ID in biology. I am writing this essay because I expect I’ll refer to it in the future since I will frequently grant that a critic of ID might be quite reasonable in not embracing ID.

Unlike some of my ID colleagues, I do not think rejection or non-acceptance of ID is an unrespectable position. It may not be obvious, but several revered “ID proponents” either currently or in the past said they are not convinced ID is true. Foremost would probably be David Berlinski. Next is Michael Denton, and next is Richard Sternberg. I do not know for a fact what they believe now, but statements they’ve made in the past have led me to conclude although they are obviously sympathetic to ID, they had not accepted it at the time of their writings. One might even put Robert Jastrow and Paul Davies in the list of “ID proponents” who actually reject ID.

GOOD REASONS TO REJECT ID
1. Absence of a Designer. I know I might get flak for this, but I think a good reason to reject ID is the absence of seeing the Intelligent Designer in operation today. With many scientific theories we can see the hypothesized mechanism in action, and this is quite reassuring to the hypothesis. For myself, I wrestle with the fact that even if ID is true, the mechanism might be forever inaccessible to us.

2. Lack of direct experiments. A designer may decide never to design again. That is consistent with how intelligent agents act. So even if the Designer is real, even if we’ve encountered Him once personally in our lives, the fact is we can’t construct experiments and demand He give us a demonstration.

3. Belief that some future mechanism might be discovered. This is always a possibility in principle.

BAD REASONS TO REJECT ID

1. Theology! There are some Christian theologians who believe in eternal life, the resurrection of the dead, the resurrection of Christ, but believe God wouldn’t design life based on whatever theological viewpoint they have such as their interpretations of the writings of Thomas Aquinas. I put this at the top of the list of bad reasons to reject ID.

2. “God wouldn’t do it that way”. This is also a theological argument, but is so prevalent its in a class of its own. How would any know God wouldn’t do it that way!

3. Bad design. See my take in The Shallowness of Bad Design Arguments.

4. Common Descent. Common descent is incompatible with Creationism but not ID.

5. Darwinian evolution. Darwinian evolution doesn’t solve the origin of life problem, and thus Dawkins over extends his claim that Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist. Darwinian evolution also has been refuted theoretically and empirically, but not everyone has caught on.

6. ID was invented to get creationism into public schools and is part of a right wing conspiracy to create a theocracy, and ID proponents are scoundrels and liars. These claims are false, but even if true, they are completely irrelevant to the truth or falsehood of ID in biology. I posted on the irrelevance of ID proponents being scoundrels. See: Scoundrel? Scoundrel?…I like the sound of that.

7. ID demeans God by making God responsible for bad designs. Denyse O’Leary deals with this one here: Here’s one bad reason for opposing ID.

I invite UD commenters to offer their own list of good and bad reasons to reject ID. This list is certainly not exhaustive, or correct, just my opinions.

Comments
So if we use what Einstein said; "In my view, such more complicated systems and their combinations should be considered only if there exist physical-empirical reasons to do so." 1.) Molecular machines are empirical evidence for design. 2.) Specified information is empirical evidence for design. 3.) Irreducible Complexity is empirical evidence for design. 4.) DNA is empirical evidence for Design. 5.) Ecology is evidence for design. 6.) Fine-Tuning is empirical evidence for design Of course this evidence says nothing about the designer how can it? What it does say empirically though is that it was designed, not by any analogy but by the fact that these systems function the same way as our own technology does using the laws of physics.Andre
June 25, 2013
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From the article; Now I have to ask how many of our materialist friends have spewed out one of these gems without knowing that they have in fact overstated the intention of Occam's razor? Occam's razor is often cited in stronger forms than Occam intended, as in the following statements. . . "If you have two theories that both explain the observed facts, then you should use the simplest until more evidence comes along" "The simplest explanation for some phenomenon is more likely to be accurate than more complicated explanations." "If you have two equally likely solutions to a problem, choose the simplest." "The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct." . . .or in the only form that takes its own advice. . . "Keep things simple!" http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.htmlAndre
June 25, 2013
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KeithS From Einsten "In my opinion the theory here is the logically simplest relativistic field theory that is at all possible. But this does not mean that Nature might not obey a more complex theory. More complex theories have frequently been proposed. . . In my view, such more complicated systems and their combinations should be considered only if there exist physical-empirical reasons to do so." "The Meaning of Relativity" (5th edition) Sorry to burst your bubble mate.Andre
June 25, 2013
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More on Occoma's razor; Please take note how it is being overstated in science, important stuff! http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.htmlAndre
June 25, 2013
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Graham If you think that it's a violation of Occam's Razor then you don't understand it correctly.Andre
June 25, 2013
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Hey Sal, Good post. My reason for rejecting ID isn't on either of your lists. I believe that to the extent that ID fails to provide an operationalized definition for the term "intelligent cause", ID's hypothesis is vacuous; and to the extent ID does provide such a definition, ID's hypothesis is unsupported by evidence. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 25, 2013
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I agree with Keiths here: The main problem with a designer/god/whatever is that it is such a gross violation of Occhams razor. To posit the existence of some great, disembodied mind just creates far more problems than it solves. It seems, though, that some people (usually the religious) dont seem to be bothered by this. If there was even the slightest direct evidence for a great spirit in the sky, I would be interested, but so far, none.Graham2
June 25, 2013
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Keith By introducing it he tried to simplify it not complicate it, His constant however prove that it is in fact far more complicated than the simple explanation we try and justify.Andre
June 25, 2013
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Andre, There was no evidence for dark energy at the time Einstein introduced the cosmological constant. The CC was an unnecessary complication, introduced only because Einstein wanted his model to predict a static universe. The cosmological constant was eventually revived, but only after the evidence for dark energy was observed.keiths
June 25, 2013
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Keith On the contrary.... http://www.space.com/19282-einstein-cosmological-constant-dark-energy.html So I do not agree with your statement of him making it more complex, he tried to make it simpler while it was in fact vastly more complex! "And the new findings don't drive nails into the coffins of other dark energy explanations, either. Rolling scalar fields are not dead," Thompson said. Rather, "they may be more complicated than those original models expected."Andre
June 25, 2013
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Andre, Actually, he fudged his data to make his model more complicated. He added the cosmological constant to his equations because wanted his model to predict a static universe. Of course, this was before Hubble's observations showed that the universe was expanding. Einstein later called it the biggest blunder of his career, which kind of proves my point, doesn't it? He would have been better off keeping things simple, and he himself realized his mistake in not doing so.keiths
June 24, 2013
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KeithS And since you are on a roll with the Einstein quotes lets look at the following "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Say Keith how long have we been trying to generate new information in biological systems? What's the results? Have we seen any new information after a 100 years of torturing fruit flies?Andre
June 24, 2013
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KeithS Einstein fudged his data to make it simple, because he did not like where the evidence was leading. If I can ask one thing of you read the article I posted about Occam's Razor, study it in detail and you will come to learn that humans love simple explanations despite the fact that some are not.Andre
June 24, 2013
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Hi Eric,
Let’s see. Should we invoke the concept of an intelligent being designing things — something we see every day around us all the time?
Sure. I have no problem with the idea of stumbling across a lost city and deciding that it was built by humans, for example. Invoking a designer to explain the panoply of life is a different story. We have no independent evidence that the designer exists, and in any case the evidence is far more favorable to the hypothesis of unguided evolution (link).keiths
June 24, 2013
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Andre,
The simple man requires a simple explanation to satisfy his logic.
And the wise man looks for an explanation that is as simple as possible while still fitting the data.
Are you a simple man Keith? Is the easy explanation your preferred one then?
Einstein wrote:
It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience.
Do you think Einstein was "a simple man" looking for "an easy explanation", Andre?keiths
June 24, 2013
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Having being there once myself I speak from experience that the idea of an unintelligent force like NS & RM to make molecular machines has a certain appeal, it makes us intellectually fulfilled atheists with not a care until you come to the realization that these unintelligent forces can do diddly squat because they can not generate specified information, you see NS & RM can only work with the information it has not the information it does not, it can not create new information it is only capable of losing it. The implications are of course profound... The designer could be dead, could still be in existence who knows... What is absolutely sure scientifically speaking is that molecular machines do not blindly build themselves. Its not even improbable, its impossible.Andre
June 24, 2013
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Keiths The simple man requires a simple explanation to satisfy his logic. Are you a simple man Keith? Is the easy explanation your preferred one then?Andre
June 24, 2013
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I would be remiss if I didn't mention my number one reason for rejecting ID: It is literally trillions of times worse at explaining the evidence when compared to unguided evolution. Given that the evidence is so lopsided, there is no rational reason to be an ID supporter, and every reason to reject it.keiths
June 24, 2013
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I saw it claimed that if evolution were shown to be able to produce information, it would be accepted. Evolution was shown to be able to produce information, so the goal post moved: if it can be shown to produce complex specified information (v1.0)… and evolution can produce CSI v1.0, so the goal post moved to to CSI v2.0 and FSCO/I and dFSCI and….
Gotta call the bluff on this one. Either you didn't see it claimed by prominent ID proponents, or you misunderstood the claim, which is certainly possible. Where is this complex specified information you claim has been produced through a purely natural process such as RM+NS?Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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Sal, I don't think any of those are good reasons to reject ID, per the title of the OP. 1. We regularly infer design before we know there is a designer. One might be tempted to argue, "but we know humans at least exist." Not necessarily at the particular time and place in question. Indeed, the reason we know humans existed at a particular time and place is because we discover artifacts, not the other way around. The rejection of design because you don't know the designer gets the arrow of inference backwards. Further, let's have the courage to throw SETI out the door if we have to know the designer exists first. 2. Yeah, we can't do experiments. So what. We also can't demand that a long lost civilization come back and show us what it can do. Again, we infer from the artifact to the designer; not the other way around. I'm willing to cut a little slack on this one, as long as we're clear that this point is not a weakness of the design inference itself, but rather just a "comfort-level" thing for the individual. 3. This one definitely does not belong on the list. Not only is this not a good reason, it is not even rational. We have a pretty good idea about what is possible within the natural laws of the universe. Further, we know (see prior discussions) that -- by definition -- a law-like process simply cannot produce the artifacts in question (e.g., information-rich systems). Saying that we're going to wait for some as-yet-undiscovered law (indeed, for some cannot-even-be-rationally-hypothesized-law) is (i) simply taking the easy way out and punting, and (ii) completely ignoring what we do know.Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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keiths @3:
1. Occam’s Razor. Invoking a Designer is extremely unparsimonious, and should only be done if truly necessary.
Let's see. Should we invoke the concept of an intelligent being designing things -- something we see every day around us all the time? Or should we invoke an unbelievably fortuitous string of particle collisions over millions of years, that just happened to occur in the right place at the right time, again, and again, and again; and which we don't currently see occurring? Yeah, I'm perfectly happy with Occam's Razor. However, it doesn't cut the way you think it does.Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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"There hasn't been evidence that you find convincing that natural selection is up to the task. But since there hasn't been any evidence that I find convincing that natural selection (+ mutation) isn't up to the task, I don’t consider this a significant point." This is not a matter of opinion. Unguided natural processes have NEVER been shown to produce large amounts of CSI. "Long ago, I saw it claimed that if evolution were shown to be able to produce information, it would be accepted. Evolution was shown to be able to produce information, so the goal post moved: if it can be shown to produce complex specified information (v1.0)… and evolution can produce CSI v1.0, so the goal post moved to to CSI v2.0 and FSCO/I and dFSCI and…." Defining what one meant by "information" is not moving the goalposts. When ID proponents use the word "information" that usually means they are talking about CSI of more than 500 bits. Dembski gives the estimate in his book which I believe came out more than a decade ago! If Dembski says.. "well I mean't 1,000 bits". That would be moving the goalposts. Like I said, we don't need to move the goalposts. That would just help equate evolution with ID...not refute it. The ID community isn't against evolution, it's skeptical of the mechanism. I'm surprised to see people say there is no mechanism for ID. Do you not understand that the mechanism is the designer itself? What is the mechanism for creating a car...ummm...the intelligence of the designer. ID doesn't need a mechanism, what it needs is a mechanism for the restriction of the evolutionary process. It needs to show a mechanism that actually stops change through natural selection and random mutation. I believe the work of Douglas Axe and Robert Marks has shown us that. As well as Mike Behe. And if you can show me that their work is flawed and there isn't said mechanism, or you can show me that the extrapolation of micro evolution to macro evolution is warranted. Then I will reject ID. I would be interested in the natural process you speak of though...ForJah
June 24, 2013
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For those that abuser and misuse Occam's Razor can I suggest some material to read? http://www.hyle.org/journal/issues/3/hoffman.htmAndre
June 24, 2013
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Athur Hunt @10 There is not a single material process capable of typing this functional and specified message to you. Good luck in finding one that can decode what you said and reply. Good luck in finding a machine that can you tell how it feels! Lastly Anything that has Nick Matzke involved is blatantly false and can be dismissed on hand, you see Nick Matzke has zero credibility. You are going to have to do better than that, Nick is a bluffer and he knows that too.Andre
June 24, 2013
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Let's face it, whether or not ID is true is just something not very many people consider of utmost importance on a day to day basis. Most of the population would say, that is really not that important this moment. Having said that, I am very sorry to say that I am one of those who just does not respect the viewpoint of those who reject ID. I don't think they choose it because of lack of intellect. Ironically, I think it takes quite a good intellect to be able to reason yourself into an anti-ID position. I do however think that it is a very foolish position. 1. I can't think of a purely natural ( defined as methodological naturalism would define it ) reason to reject ID. I mean let's be real about this, NCSE positions to the contrary, your belief or non-belief in ID does not significantly change how well you perform at any profession including the sciences. I have not seen that belief or non-belief in ID makes one more or less desirable as a mate to the general population as a whole although sub-populations may be attracted to ones with similar positions to themselves. From this we can rightly conclude that the belief or non-belief on the abstract concept of ID, has no bearing on "fitness". In other words belief or non-belief in ID is not selected for. 2. Since there is no natural ( selection for or selection against ) reason that ID is rejected, we can only conclude that either it is just randomly distributed in the population or people really do choose it or not choose it. 3. Consider the language of some of the people have listed here for reasons they choose to be anti-ID such as logic, Occam's razor.. they really do believe they are making a choice. 4. Unfortunately, 2 and 3 imply the presence of some form of libertarian free will which can weigh in the balance abstract concepts and make choices. In other words, it seems quite obvious to me that if humans have the ability to reject or accept abstract concepts which have no fitness advantage, libertarian free will must exist. 5. But any form of libertarian free will at least suggests that there must be something ( a creator ) who granted that libertarian free will. 6. So in my mind, one very good supremely ironic reason to accept ID is that some people really believe they have the ability to reject it.JDH
June 24, 2013
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To extend what keiths said: my primary reason for rejecting ID is also Occam's razor, but there are a couple of additional bases that feed into it: - Common Descent. I agree with Sal that this (in and of itself) isn't a reason to reject ID, but it does mean that life has been subject to the various processes of evolution. Thus, the question is not evolution vs. ID, it's evolution vs. evolution+ID. While you might view ID alone as simpler than evolution alone, evolution+ID is clearly a more complicated explanation than either alone. - The mechanism of ID hasn't been adequately explained, meaning that even if the question was evolution vs. ID, it'd be a evolution-via-a-well-worked-out-and-demonstrated-mechanism vs. ID-by-direct-creation-or-maybe-frontloading-or-maybe-guided-mutation-or-maybe-active-information-in-the-fitness-function-or-maybe... IMO if you want ID to really be a competitor to evolution, you really need to switch from the design detection approach to something that actually gets into producing testable theories of mechanisms. Until that happens, ID won't be able to offer a serious alternative to evolution. While I'm here, let me respond to a couple of other comments. Joe #4 first:
That could be but there still isn’t any evidence that natural selection is up to the task. And there ain’t no other alleged designer mimics to choose from.
There hasn't been evidence that you find convincing that natural selection is up to the task. But since there hasn't been any evidence that I find convincing that natural selection (+ mutation) isn't up to the task, I don't consider this a significant point. Andre #8:
It is clear that most don’t really understand Occam’s razor. Reason to reject ID; If you can show that natural processes are cable of creating specified and functional information. Do that and ID is dead as disco. Until then it is inference to the best explanation.
I must disagree. Long ago, I saw it claimed that if evolution were shown to be able to produce information, it would be accepted. Evolution was shown to be able to produce information, so the goal post moved: if it can be shown to produce complex specified information (v1.0)... and evolution can produce CSI v1.0, so the goal post moved to to CSI v2.0 and FSCO/I and dFSCI and.... Take your challenge: I have an example in mind of a natural process (at least, I think it's natural; I can't prove God isn't involved) that produces what I'd consider functional and specified information. If I were to show it to you, would your response be "oh, I guess evolution's plausible after all" or would it be "that's not what I meant, I meant [additional qualifiers...]"? BTW, Sal: I have a partly-written comment on your old post about whether we evolved from fish (short summary: I don't think you fully understand the reasoning behind the relevant phylogenetic reconstruction; also, even if common descent were replaced by something else there'd still be a case that we should be considered fish). Are you still interested in the topic, or should I skip it?Gordon Davisson
June 24, 2013
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I disagree with number 3...finding a processes that could create large amounts of CSI would not refute ID...it would only mean there are two equally competing hypothesis. More scientific discoveries and knowledge are needed to make a better case for one. It's the like the difference between a steady state universe and the big bang. Just because the big bang was "possible" didn't eliminate the steady state universe. It was only when the "big bang" hypothesis produced a fruitful prediction about the microwave radiation that it was deemed the best explanation. The only reason I believe for rejecting ID is showing that a nature can plausibly create in the same way intelligence can. Reasons to question ID are it's some what weak inference. Using human intelligence and then extrapolating an intelligence beyond that. But When it comes to the inference itself....the fruitfulness of it's predictions will rate whether its a weak or strong inference. Design theory has just started creating a synthesis for biology. A top down model as proposed by Doug Axe..let's see what happens!ForJah
June 24, 2013
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Greetings, Sal. Thanks for your post!
1. Absence of a Designer. I know I might get flak for this, but I think a good reason to reject ID is the absence of seeing the Intelligent Designer in operation today. With many scientific theories we can see the hypothesized mechanism in action, and this is quite reassuring to the hypothesis. For myself, I wrestle with the fact that even if ID is true, the mechanism might be forever inaccessible to us.
I don't agree that this is a valid reason to reject ID. We infer intelligent agency regularly (and without complaint) in all manner of cases where the designer is beyond any chance of direct observation - e.g. a murder without witnesses, an ancient artifact or inscription, a napkin with doodles on it, etc. That the designer in a particular situation is unobservable is irrelevant if the evidence is sufficient.Optimus
June 24, 2013
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Reason to reject ID; If you can show that natural processes are cable of creating specified and functional information. Do that and ID is dead as disco.
Been there, done that. But I'm not trying to take credit for the demise of ID. As a scientific concept, ID was stillborn. It gives some of us an excuse to wax eloquent (or turgid - prose styles vary greatly) about the science that so captivates those who actually work in the lab and at the computer to push the bounds of knowledge. But that's about all it is good for, I am afraid.Arthur Hunt
June 24, 2013
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@ Keiths
1. Occam’s Razor. Invoking a Designer is extremely unparsimonious, and should only be done if truly necessary.
There's a difficulty in appealing to Occam's Razor as a principle for distinguishing between good and bad explanations - it can be incredibly subjective. How does one go about deciding that one explanation is more parsimonious than another? I don't happen to think that a designer is unparsimonious, whereas invoking largely stochastic processes to explain the overwhelming appearance of design in biology (something that even some hardcore darwinists acknowledge) strains credulity, IMO.
2. It’s not necessary. Every alleged indicator of design, including “irreducible complexity” and “complex specified information”, is flawed.
That's certainly a debatable assertion. Such descriptors may not be perfect in every context, but they adequately capture the attributes that uniform and repeated experience shows to be caused by intelligent agency. The phenomenon of irreducible complexity should be uncontroversial. It simply describes certain systems that possess an indispensable core logic that must be present for functionality. What is so "flawed" about that? Do you claim that there is no biological system on either the micro or macro level that exhibits this property? Since you consider irreducible complexity and CSI to be flawed, what characteristics do you consider to be reliable indicators of intelligent agency?Optimus
June 24, 2013
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