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Gregory and the Subject of Human Extension

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The following is a one-shot guest post by regular UD commenter, Gregory. I offer this because I know that Gregory’s been talking about Intelligent Design for years, and because it was my intention to give him the chance to make his case for the social sciences’ relevance to the ID discussion. As before, my posting this shouldn’t be taken as endorsement – in fact I’m very skeptical of the direction of Gregory’s project for a number of reasons, which I may or may not mention later in comments. But he was civil and sincere enough, and I thought the regulars at UD would find his thoughts interesting, whether to consider or point out the flaws.

Anyway, here I cede the floor to the social sciences. Have at it, folks.

Human Extension: an Alternative Way to Look at Intelligent Design
By Gregory Sandstrom, PhD
“The endless cycles of idea and action
Endless invention, endless experiment
Brings knowledge of motion, but not of stillness.”
– T.S. Eliot

Thanks to nullasalus for agreeing to post this guest thread on Uncommon Descent.

This post contains an article that includes 3 internet links to works on evolution, creation, intelligent design and human extension that I have produced or been involved with in recent months. It also means that I am ‘coming out of the closet’ by revealing my true name. At this point in time (summer 2012), I consider that to be a risk worth taking.

When I accepted an invitation to attend the Discovery Institute’s summer program for humanities and social sciences in 2008, I did so not as an IDer, but rather as someone researching in the subfield now called sociology of science (SoS). I wanted to see who these people are that accept and promote intelligent design (ID) and learn more about the home base for the intelligent design movement (IDM), the Discovery Institute (DI) in Seattle, Washington. It was a professional curiosity regarding IDers and the IDM as much as it was a personal interest in science, philosophy and religion discourse that brought me to knock on the DI’s door.

The first day at the summer program we were given a presentation (including both the natural-physical sciences as well as the humanities and social sciences participants) by Bruce Gordon, CSC Senior Fellow. According to Gordon, there are 3 types (or definitions) of evolution: 1. change-over-time, 2. universal common descent, and 3. neo-Darwinism (by which he meant natural selection plus random mutation). Gordon said that ID has no problem with 1 or (generally, if not specifically) 2, but that 3 is believed by IDers to be either wrong or insufficient.

This may sound unusual to some people (as it would to Bruce), but I disagree mostly with 1, take no issue with 2 (though I’m open to some kind of ‘uncommon’ descent scenario, specifically with respect to human beings, e.g. ‘divine election,’ while accepting an ‘old’ Earth), and don’t much care about 3, given that my interests are mainly outside of biology, botany, zoology and genetics. I treat neo-Darwinism as an ideology rather than as a science and consider (neo-)Darwinian evolution as a legitimate natural scientific theory that seems to have many ‘errors’ in it at the same time that it also possesses many truths (cf. Allchin 2009). To clarify, I reject calling ‘(neo-)Darwinism’ a ‘scientific theory’ because of the common ideological signifier ‘-ism’ which is attached to Darwin’s name.

Regarding point 1, ‘evolution’ should not be defined or expressed to mean ‘change-over-time’ because there are ‘other’ kinds of ‘change-over-time’ that are not ‘evolutionary’ (more on this below). In other words, change is the master category, rather than evolution. Evolution is a particular type of change (i.e. non-teleological or goal-oriented and without foresight) and people should not attempt to invert the linguistic priority by giving evolution a monopoly over change. Doing so improperly privileges evolution and leads to the possibility of turning evolution from a natural scientific theory into an ideology or even a materialistic or atheistic worldview.

Taking this approach over the years has allowed me to reframe the general discourse of evolution, creation and ID which I invite people visiting or participating at UD to consider as a view that both is contra-evolutionism and humanitarian. Here I define ‘evolutionism’ as the ideological exaggeration of evolutionary theory into fields or topics where it does not properly belong. One example of this is giving ‘evolution’ a monopoly over ‘change.’ Another is the faulty transference of evolution from biology into anthropology, psychology, sociology, politics, economics and cultural studies; socio-biology and evolutionary psychology being the simplest examples.

So, UD reader, if you are against the ideology of evolutionism, then you might be interested to openly consider the position I am putting forward here and elsewhere. Truth be told, however, this position differs in significant ways from ID as it is presented and advocated for today by the IDM. If you are an IDM-ID proponent, and if you likewise consider the position I’m putting forward as valid and potentially fruitful, then you will eventually be faced with a choice between IDM-ID and the more holistic approach to science, philosophy and religion presented here. This approach claims more relevance regarding human meaning, values, beliefs, morality and ethics, as well as the term ‘intelligence’ than anything yet produced by the IDM. This is said after having viewed the DI and IDM from within more than independent internet bloggers.

You might be wondering where I’m going with this since I’ve been working in the human-social sciences on the topic for over a decade (2010 defended a dissertation on comparative sociology). Is it my task to ridicule ID and mock you in the same way as materialists and Darwinists do? No. It turns out that I made a far-reaching discovery in 2001 that may seem counter-intuitive to some people at first, but which has held up under scrutiny, criticism and mentorship. It is either a non-ID or a neo-ID approach to knowledge and existence, thus this thread is titled “an alternative way to look at intelligent design.” Let me now explain the reasoning behind Human Extension.

This discovery effectively answers the question of ‘what doesn’t evolve’ and/or ‘what are the limits of evolution,’ while also providing a new contribution in the human-social sciences. Michael Behe writes of ‘the edge of evolution’ related to biology, but it doesn’t sound like the biological community has (yet) embraced his notion of ‘unevolvability.’ What I discovered and have tested over a decade for weaknesses and errors is an alternative approach to ‘unevolvability’ in a different core field than biology, where nevertheless evolutionary ideas are still active and current.

In short form, what I am suggesting is that it makes sense to say that technology and other human-made things (cf. ‘artificial selection’) do not ‘evolve.’ Instead, they ‘extend’ from human choices.
This human-social paradigm for science and technology studies (STS) can be expressed in two basic axioms:
Axiom 1 – Nothing human-made evolves into being (or having become);
Axiom 2 – Everything human-made extends from human choice(s), to do, to act or to make something.

If you wish to challenge Human Extension, it is with these two axioms that you should start.

The idea of ‘human extension,’ found in the work of internationally recognised culture, technology and media theorist Marshall McLuhan, the so-called ‘sage of the wired age,’ came to me before I had actually heard of ‘intelligent design’ (ID) and the intelligent design movement (IDM). When I later learned about the IDM (2002), I then became active in exploring the possibilities of their new idea, participating in discussion forums about ID and asking questions via e-mail to IDM leaders. I also visited the DI in Seattle, which was just a couple of hours drive from my home near Vancouver, Canada.

During the period of the following years, I continued to develop the answer I’d discovered, engaging with people around the world (in no less than 7 countries) on its history, possible relevance and application. After several presentations at academic conferences and then publications in scientific journals on this topic (from 2005-2010), finally in 2011 the time came to face an ‘alternative world of ID’ (Fuller 2012).

This alternative way to look at ID can be seen for the first time by visitors to UD in this TEDx talk, which raises the spectre of ID, but also goes beyond it by speaking of Human Extension and the courage of extending humanity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t85d6Bh9Nys.

One example of an ‘alternative world of ID’ that I had heard about during my journey is visible in the prolific work of American-British philosopher and sociologist of science, Steve Fuller. His approach to ID is imo on the cutting-edge, even if it is not well-known or widely accepted in the IDM. (Note for religious apologists: his Wikipedia profile is wrong – he is not an atheist or a ‘secular humanist,’ but rather an Abrahamist, educated by Jesuits.) Fuller was called as witness and participated at the 2005 Dover Trial, but that is far from being his most important contribution on this topic (see parallel thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/steve-fuller-in-id-philosophy-news/). His work as a social epistemologist facilitates people to consider the presuppositions and implications of ID theory, in ways that both distinguishes it from ‘creationism’ while also revealing its dependency on the worldview of its founders who all believe human beings are/were created in imago Dei. According to Fuller, without recognising this and the “deep theological roots” of ‘intelligent design,’ any theory that takes its name makes little sense from a historical or intellectual perspective.

As a result of following the trail Fuller has blazed, over the past few years I’ve come to realise that humanities and social sciences enable fresh access to ‘the bridge’ between natural sciences, philosophy and theology that IDers have written and spoken about but have yet to practically cross. Crossing such a bridge is possible because meaning, purpose and values are involved in humanities and social sciences in a way they are not in natural sciences. In other words, by ‘humanising ID’ into the humanities and social sciences, i.e. by recognising the inescapable ‘reflexivity’ (both individual and group-oriented) involved in defining and interpreting ‘intelligent design’ both now and in the first place (1980’s & 90’s), a new type of qualitative evaluation or meaning infusion can be revealed that is not now available in IDM-ID.

Towards this prospect, a series of short papers has been recently published on the topic (http://social-epistemology.com/2012/06/05/sandstrom-basboll-craddock-scott-intelligent-design-as-social-epistemology-collective-judgment-forum/), called “Intelligent Design as Social Epistemology” (ID as SE). The involvement of social epistemologists on the topic of ID actually realises the predictions that DI scholars made in the 1990s regarding the unique role of non-natural sciences in shaping the future and current meaning of ‘intelligent design.’ In other words, we are ahead of the IDM in looking at the social influences on and actual beliefs of IDers, thus providing a valuable service to scientists and laypeople from a sociological perspective.

This means that we don’t just look at ID as an ‘ontological’ view (i.e. the position that contends there *is* ‘detectable’ design in the natural world), but instead as an ‘epistemological’ view people hold that displays various pre-commitments and background assumptions. By looking closer at the personal-ideological features of ID, a contribution by humanities and social sciences can be welcomed. This is what is being suggested here now at UD, though much more work is presented elsewhere, and it is granted that even more remains on the road towards you being convinced.

If you’ve made it this far you may be wondering why this matters to the IDM? Why should people who are promoting ID predominantly in natural-physical and applied sciences pay any attention at all to social sciences and humanities? First, because admitting that ‘social epistemology’ is in *any* way involved with ID theory challenges the neutrality-myth that ID is merely a detached, impersonal, objectivistic, scientific theory of order, teleology and information. Also, because ‘Darwinism,’ the greatest singular ideological enemy of the IDM, has in some ways also affected the social sciences and humanities in the form of ‘social Darwinism.’

It may have seemed like a good idea to insist that ID-is-science-only using (copying, imitating, etc.) the preferred language of natural scientific methods. But in fact doing just that actually compromises the core meaning of ID, which imo has the higher potential to re-humanise, rather than to dehumanise via its connection with philosophy and theology. The neutrality-myth indeed can be seen as a burden on the soul of the scientist, just as much as some people consider it as a kind of liberation (or escape) from religion to study ‘just the facts.’ The meaning of ‘intelligent design’ as Fuller and I approach it is about ideas, pre-commitments and the personal worldview(s) of its proponents as much as it is about biological data and physical or material details. Admitting that the psychological dimension is inevitably part of ‘doing science’ will be a humbling experience for the neutrality-myth proponents of ID.

To suggest that ‘atheists could be IDers’ is also deemed as an ingenuous and highly unlikely if not impossible proposition. If one believes that the world is ordered, guided, and/or governed by a transcendent intelligence, like the Abrahamic God, as do Fuller and myself and presumably all other ‘real’ (authentic) IDers, then the suggestion that ‘atheistic ID’ is even a possibility is removed from the logical table of discussion. David Berlinski is thus a mere anti-Darwinist rather than a pro-IDer, sharing positive theological meanings of ‘design.’

Atheists can therefore become IDers, but they cannot disbelieve in God and also accept the core meaning of ID, that people are divinely-created (and are thus able to recognize ‘intelligence’ in the created world). IDers are persons of faith in a ‘designer/Designer,’ even if they do not often include (i.e. even sometimes purposely exclude) discussion about it in their persistent quest for ID’s scientificity. It is not controversial to grasp this or to express it.

What it speaks to is one of the most significant features of ID theory that often goes unnoticed. Without showing what ID has to do with actual persons, i.e. how ID makes a difference of meaning in people’s lives, the notion of ID ‘in biology’ or ‘in nature’ cannot properly resonate with or influence humanity. IDM-ID as a ‘neutral-natural-science’ thus obscures as much as it enlightens. That is why humanities and social sciences scholars need to be pro-actively invited for constructive dialogue with ID natural scientists, engineers, programmers and theologians. The former fields contain insights into meaning, purpose, value and ethics that natural and applied scientists simply do not possess. Objectivistic approaches to ‘intelligence’ and ‘design’ thus only give a partial view of the story, which can also be informed by subjectivity and personality.

By turning to ‘an alternative world of ID’ that places the central focus on human choices, purpose, meaning and teleology in opposition to universal evolutionism, a direct, realistic path opens up to overcoming naturalistic and materialistic ideologies that have tended to extinguish belief in the human spirit. It is expected that 99% of IDers support belief in the ‘human spirit’ and rejection of materialism as an obligation. Materialism is an ideology that is simply not satisfactory when employed on topics of choice and action. But the IDM has not (yet) satisfactorily explored these topics. This is where looking to Human Extension offers new hope for an end to the (Anglo-American) ‘culture wars’ over evolutionism, not to mention ‘Darwinism.’

The arrival of a social scientific approach to ‘intelligent design’ such as Human Extension is surprisingly what the DI already predicted in the 1990s and what is now finally coming to happen. Though it may appear to look like IDM-ID, in fact Human Extension differs considerably in speaking with emphasis anthropically and reflexively. Nevertheless, what some of you at UD mean by ‘design’ may be thought to be what I mean by ‘extension.’ Looking deeper at these two notions will thus help to clarify the differences and similarities; for now it is enough to say that the two positions share a common opposition to evolutionism.
The greatest indictment of evolutionary philosophy: it brings “knowledge of motion, but not of stillness.” This is how extension is able to challenge evolutionary philosophy by insisting that pauses and lack of change, voids and moments of stillness are part of human life and existence. Unceasing eternal/temporal change is as impossible to the human mind, body and soul as eternal/temporal sameness.

What people are seeking today is thus a balance between statics and dynamics, between more and enough, between science, philosophy and religion. This is what Human Extension helps people to more directly explore and encounter than is possible through the lens of evolutionary philosophy or naturalistic ID.

Change is involved in human living, whether we call it ‘evolution’ or not. But there are also pauses or gaps or voids or stillness, which are a part of human existence. The way we label this recognition will inform the post-evolutionistic epoch. Even those who subscribe to theistic evolution (TE) or evolutionary creation (EC) will find it helpful that ‘evolutionism’ can be safely exposed as ideology and removed from carrying a label of ‘scientific.’ This is what my work over the past decade has shown, which is now revealed at UD under the label of Human Extension, as it has been called elsewhere. For those interested to pursue the idea further, much more than this short introduction is written and available elsewhere (just follow the link on my name).

Human Extension is an example of ‘change-over-time’ that is not evolutionary; it involves purpose, plan, goal(s), meaning and direction (teleology) that is not present in biological evolutionary theories. It is a human-social scientific (reflexive) contribution to knowledge and discourse involving evolution, creation and intelligent design. By allowing choice a foot in the door via Human Extension, the ideology of evolutionism can be overcome, allowing a significant step to be taken in human-social thought toward more balanced, collaborative dialogue between the major realms of science, philosophy and religion.

There is now therefore a new position available in the conversation to contemplate, a post-neo-evolutionary position, which draws on rich and deep traditions in a variety of scholarly fields, from philosophy and theology to communications, psychology, geography, anthropology, mathematics and economics. This position, not one from biology, engineering, informatics or origins of life studies, offers a sincere, deliberate and long-prepared challenge to evolutionism and IDM-ID. This includes hope for clarification and collaboration, as well as a reality check to the IDM’s narrow naturalistic notion of ‘intelligent design,’ which so far (purposely) excludes human meaning.

So, now that I’ve come out of the closet and revealed myself and this dynamic-static, more-enough, counter-evolutionistic approach that has been in the works for years, is it possible that you will you respond favourably and with constructively critical comments, challenges or questions? Will you instead drop the plastic hammer of condemnation by stating how irrelevant the social sciences are in the contemporary world, how humanity doesn’t actually matter very much for intelligent design, evolution and creation topics, that they involve nothing but objective or empirical scientific questions? Or will you keep the option open that a new paradigm or heuristic could arise to shed new light on old problems, including issues of whether or not mind, consciousness or spirit are involved (reflexively) in the world of human nature?

I met many good and decent people at the DI’s summer program and carry no personal grudges with the IDers and friends I met there. I may disagree with their ‘blind’ acceptance of ID, but I don’t reject them as persons. The choice is now up to you: in what way you will extend your hand to me and to this new possibility of Human Extension as an integrative insight into science, philosophy and theology?

“Theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man.” – Pope John Paul II

Extension is a “fundamental notion concerning the nature of reality.” – A.N. Whitehead

Sources:
Allchin, Douglas (2009). “Celebrating Darwin’s Errors.” The American Biology Teacher, Vol. 71, No. 2. Earlier form adapted and posted here: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~allch001/papers/D-errors-NYU.pdf
Dembski, William (2004). The Design Revolution. Inter-Varsity Press.
Fuller, Steve (2006). The New Sociological Imagination. Sage Publications.

McLuhan, Marshall (1964). Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man. New York: McGraw-Hill

Comments
Let’s look at a couple of examples of Human Extension relatable to the IDM and IDM-ID. This message is not about biological theory or biological information. Instead, it is connected directly with (our) human life and thus draws on ideas from a variety of social scientific realms. Yet, to show how it is related to the IDM-ID and questions more popular within that paradigm, what follows is an attempt at highlighting common themes. Most people (in the Abrahamic religions) believe there lived pre-Adamites in their view of natural (homo sapiens sapiens; human) history. What do the Adamites then ‘extend’ from; a purely naturalistic process or one that involves intelligence or ‘divinity’? Human Extension asks a question that IDM-ID does not ask and that ‘evolutionary theory’ has avoided; it is a question that attracts people to the science, philosophy, religion conversation. Are human beings ‘natural-only,’ ‘material-only,’ ‘physical-only,’ based on our origins, or are there other features of our process of daily existence that are meaningful to people today? Citing ‘mind’ and ‘intelligence’ is commonplace in human-social thought, while it is a novelty (mainly unwelcome) in natural-physical sciences. Likewise, did Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution drawn upon purely scientific (botanical, biological, zoological and geological) evidences or did it also ‘extend’ from ideas that he had committed himself to about human meaning, purpose, values, ethics and dreams? Iow, could we say that Darwin’s theory of evolution was influenced by ideology, e.g. agnosticism (coined by Darwin’s friend, T.H. Huxley), as it was also by a desire to produce ‘good science’ for the betterment of humanity or to see truth? If so, how much did Darwin’s presuppositions about chance and design play a role in the theory that he created/designed/constructed/extended? IDM-ID, in so far as it is interested in ‘science-only,’ does not study these questions. Therefore, if you don’t think these questions are important, then I must admit you’re engaged in a very different conversation than the one that I’m focussed on. I’m interested in meaning, purpose, planning and teleology. Let us then try to find common ground rather than ignoring topics of shared interest, which nevertheless, Human Extension provides a different approach to than IDM-ID. Tell me what you think I share in common with you and hear me, please and acknowledge it when I say things you also share in agreement. IDM-ID presupposes intelligence, a mind, a designer behind (transcendent to) the universe. But it hasn’t (yet) found a way to convince its targeted natural scientific community how this presupposition can be agreed upon by non-theistic scientists or by scientists who are theists yet who reject the claim that IDM-ID offers ‘scientific proofs’ of ‘design in nature.’ It is theistic scientists, mainly of the Abrahamic faiths and especially evangelical Protestants, who are curiously sympathetic about IDM-ID, but not mainly non-theists or agnostics. Thus, IDM-ID has run into competition from ‘theistic evolutionists’ and ‘evolutionary creationists’ who are not prepared to accept the language of IDM-ID, which says it can naturalistically-scientifically prove or detect ‘design in nature’ without any necessary and explicit consideration of theology. We have heard recently, however, that Stephen C. Meyer, Director of the Centre for Science and Culture at DI, now embraces ID’s inevitable link with theology, at least, he has said reportedly so much to Steve Fuller in a public forum. This may be the beginning of the end for promoting IDM-ID as ‘science-only,’ i.e. as we have known its priorities thus far. This is an obvious point of challenge that Human Extension makes towards IDM-ID because the former admits of ‘design’ and ‘planning’ in non-natural sciences, as well as focussing on ‘intelligent agents’ in a clear and direct way that IDM-ID does not. Human Extension centralises ‘choice’ in contrast to the choice-less paradigm of (pre-2012) IDM-ID. What I mean by IDM-ID is an approach to ‘design’ and ‘intelligence’ that has aspirations to being ‘science-only,’ and to ‘detect design’ in ‘nature-only.’ This means that technology, human institutions and all non-natural systems are not part of the ‘in nature’ IDM-ID approach. If anyone participating at UD would reject this definition, I would ask them to please offer a concise alternative definition of IDM-ID that contrasts with it. I’ve read the FAQs here and many statements by IDM-ID leaders and offer the above definition as a summary of how I view the meaning of IDM-ID up to today. In my notes from the 2008 DI Summer Program on ID, Stephen C. Meyer defines ‘intelligent design’ (uncapitalised) as: “The choice of an intelligent agent to actualise a possibility.” This comes much closer to comfortable territory for me as a human-social scientist/scholar. Nevertheless, it is absurd to imagine social-humanitarian thought ‘leaving out’ the IDENTITY of the so-called ‘intelligent agent,’ i.e. the ‘designer(s)/builder(s)/maker(s)/constructor(s)’ in its methodology. This is why IDM-ID as it is currently formulated, mainly by natural and applied scientists, is merely a shadow of what it could become if human-social thought were to be included, not merely as a handmaiden, but as a legitimate contributing realm of its own. Human perception ‘extends’ beyond its natural limitations, for example, by media systems. To say that those systems are ‘intelligently designed’ (as IDM-ID would, if it could) is not the main point; that is already obvious. The main point that Human Extension raises is that media systems don’t ‘evolve’ and that we (meaning people, individuals and communities) are actively involved in planning their direction, their purpose and giving them power, which extends from our nervous system, our thoughts, dreams and ideas, our human spirit. This approach offers a major overhaul to and improvement upon the ‘technological evolution’ position, that even William Dembski accepts (cf. TRIZ). Human Extension is much more interested in the so-called ‘ghost in the machine’ than is IDM-ID, which makes it more relevant to some of the challenges and even frightening possibilities we are facing today, as humanity moves forward in the electronic-information age, already in the era of nuclear energy. Is IDM-ID wrong or is it simply asking questions that are not necessary wrong, but rather naturalistically misguided and/or irrelevant to much more important issues facing humankind? I consider IDM-ID only a patchwork solution to a problem that it has not and likely cannot solve as long as it continues with its current weak position in philosophy of (natural) science (PoS). More is written about this Here. If you folks actually want this conversation to be about Dawkins, Ruse, Dennett, S. Harris, E. Scott, G. Coyne, P.Z. Myers, L. Moran, et al., if you want THEM to drive this dialogue, then you’ll keep going in the same direction you’re going in with IDM-ID already. If, otoh, you wish to move forward and to go beyond them and their tricky-Dicky-dancing, you will need to be open to and ready for new possibilities, such as what I am proposing. A new possibility has been put on the table in front of you with the notion of Human Extension. Who is interested to examine it and to ask questions, to challenge it or at least to reason about it? These opportunities don’t come about often, at least, not if they are backed up by published papers, by experience at academic conferences on this topic, by a TEDx talk and by the support of one of the only sociologists of ID and the IDM, someone who “understands the key issues.” Why would you let this slip by? There is little to fear required in going outside of one’s comfort zone to express curiosity and pose questions, to probe and explore, unless one is already convinced they hold a truth that cannot be contradicted, that takes the name of ‘science.’ But really, that kind of 'science' would actually be the (capital S) 'Science' of the western Euro Enlightenment, wouldn't it, reframed in America?Gregory
July 25, 2012
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F/N: I should observe that the resources pointed to at 30 are longstanding and have in the main been linked and/or discussed during the course of the discussion. I trust that that should make the difference plain between loose reference (which I was falsely accused of) and summary reference in the context of a responsible -- but obviously ignored -- discussion. GS would get more of an audience if he did not come across as dismissive of ID as it is. And, I am pretty sure that diversion from the priority on developing and demonstrating sound scientific conclusions -- never mind the cavils against such by objectors largely driven by evolutionary materialist scientism -- would simply feed soft pitches to the "creationism in a cheap tuxedo" smear advocated by Forrest, NCSE and co.Let's just say the intensity of verbal flak reactions to responsible citation and discussion of key and longstanding statements such as these five -- Lewontin, Mahner, Coyne, US NAS, US NSTA -- tells me that the priority on sound method and warranted conclusions is close to the target. KFkairosfocus
July 23, 2012
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[NIKI] = [NIKE]StephenB
July 23, 2012
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It is frustrating to interact with Gregory because he tends to analyze everything through the lens of his own sociological paradigms. Too often, he responds to substantial points about ID science by redefining its essence into something more congenial with his agenda. Hence, ID science, which is well defined in its own right, is reframed as a kind of social epistemology or a“story.” But there is a critical difference between "having" a story and being a "story." At other times, he redefines ID in terms of what he thinks it should be, presumably some kind of “human extension. All the while, he makes it clear that he has yet to grasp what ID is even on its own terms. The indisputable facts in question are clear: The ID scientist uses the same method to detect design in nature that the anthropologist uses to detect design in an ancient hunter’s spear. Accordingly, the former cannot identify the designer for the same reason that the latter cannot identify the hunter. This is basic empirical reasoning. It has nothing to do with a limited view of human nature and everything to do with the limitations of the scientific process. If ID were to change its approach and incorporate theological principles as part of its methodology, it will no longer be an evidence-based, scientific exercise. It would be a theological exercise where faith does the leading and the evidence does the following. Gregory is proposing a logically impossible process where religious faith and empirical observation are both calling the shots. I have already addressed this point several times, pointing out that theology and science can, indeed, join hands, but only if each uses methods appropriate to its domain--not as one part of a two-part process. But I can’t explain this to Gregory because he doesn’t even know what I mean by the word “process”—even after I explain it. Indeed, he appears to be impervious to feedback. If, on the other hand, he can describe, in specific and concrete terms, a way to integrate two methodologies into one (or three if you count philosophy), I would certainly consider the matter with respect. Alas, that appears unlikely since he does not even acknowledge the problem. On the contrary, he throws it back in our lap and says, in effect, “just do it.” That may work for a NIKI marketing campaign, but it doesn’t work for me.StephenB
July 23, 2012
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T: Thanks. KF PS: For those who do want to figure out what the relevant -- and commonly encountered -- ID-relevant terms mean, and why they are important to anyone serious about the design theory issue: 1 --> cf. here on. Notice the RH sidebar that speaks to main focal topics one after the other. 2 --> The inference to design is specifically taken up here and connected to the significance of the von Neumann self-replicator. 3 --> The IOSE also has units on OOL and OO body plans [bauplane in the original German), on cosmological origins and design as well as timelines, and a section on the origin of mind and man as well as on origins science in society. 4 --> There is also a glossary in the resources tab on top of this and every UD page (which has an entry on intelligent design, one on intelligence and one on information), as well as a definition of ID and a set of answers to commonly encountered weak objections. 5 --> FYI: "Design" is used in an ID context to describe both specification of a plan for an entity (which needs not be drawn or written out) and implementation of same; which leads to artifacts that have empirical features characteristic of purposeful and skilled intelligence in action, not blind chance and equally blind forces of mechanical necessity. 6 --> FYFI, complex specified info (especially FUNCTIONALLY specific complex organisation and associated info), and irreducibly complex objects or processes are held per inductive warrant to be strong signs of design. 7 --> A general purpose design theory FAQ is here. 8 --> I note that there is indeed a design thought movement, a socio-cultural phenomenon. This is quite different from scientific projects and a nascent research programme that addresses technical scientific and related analytical questions -- which in one direction are Mathematical, in another have to do with computing, and in a third are philosophical (including especially logic and epistemology of scientific issues) -- regarding design theory. 9 --> Without the latter being very well grounded, the former is just another pressure group with an agenda. which is what objectors try to assert, assume or imply. 10 --> And given the pretty deceptive and poisonously uncivil tactics too often habitually resorted to by objectors [cf here on some thoughts as to what is going seriously wrong with our civilisation], that warrant has to take first emphasis.kairosfocus
July 23, 2012
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Re (26): For Gregory to complain to kairosfocus about "jargon," when his own posts are filled with social science and philosophy of science jargon, plus strange "slash" compound forms, plus awkward, non-standard word usage of various kinds, takes a lot of nerve. But here is a more important point: "Human identity and self-understanding is vastly more important in most peoples’ lives than whether or not a bacterial flagellum can self-organise from disparate parts or if it requires transcendental intervention from a mysterious (un-nameable) intelligent designer" No doubt, "human identity and self-understanding" are important. At the same time, what most people consider to be important in their lives is no index of what is really important. Most people are not deeply concerned about "human identity and self-understanding." Most people consider "who will get voted off the island" or who "who will be the next American idol" to be more important questions than the origin of the bacterial flagellum, or for that matter, the origin of themselves. So should scientists and philosophers and theologians stop studying questions of origins, and devote their attention to social analyses of popular television shows? Or should they ignore popular television shows, and focus on the questions which they consider to be more important? The question about the bacterial flagellum, insofar as it is connected with the more general question of origins, is in fact *very* important -- whether the masses realize it or not -- to the search for "human identity and self-understanding" that Gregory claims to be so concerned about. If Dawkins's biology is right, intelligent design is a superfluous explanation for the origin of life, species, and man, including the highest functions and aspirations of man. If Dawkins's biology is right, all that is noblest in our nature is mere epiphenomenal froth dancing on a platform of mindless atoms, and human life is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. That's why it's very important to show the world that "good biology" in no way entails Dawkins's conclusions about human origins. And that's exactly what Behe, etc. are trying to do. ID is no mere scientific frivolity, no mere attempt to, say, determine how many legs a millipede has, just for the sake of satisfying some butterfly-collecting form of curiosity. It goes to the heart of the question whether there is rational order in the universe, and in particular, the question whether man is a cosmic accident, or the intended result of a mind and hence possessed of a meaningful destiny. If Gregory cannot see the connection between the biological questions and the human, existential questions, then, despite all his alleged years of studying evolution and intelligent design, he is not very perceptive. And if he *can* see this, then he must realize that no matter what he says, ID people will continue to talk about irreducible complexity, information theory, modes of novel protein generation, origins of new body plans, possible functions of non-coding DNA, and all the things that he as a non-natural-scientist has no interest in. The idea that ID people should stop doing what they are doing, in order to take up what Gregory thinks they should be doing, is a complete non-starter. It is the equivalent of telling the players of the NFL that they should give up football and take up knitting, while calling knitting "football." Ain't gonna happen, Gregory. No matter how many e-books you publish. Of course, these remarks are addressed only to Gregory, not to Steve Fuller, who offers a much more nuanced position. He doesn't suggest that biological questions are unimportant questions and that ID people should stop talking about them. He suggests, rather, that the biological research program of ID could be intensified and better supported if ID proponents were more explicitly theological. That's quite different from saying that questions of biological origins aren't important because most people would rather think about "human" than biological questions. Fuller ties the biological questions to the ultimate human concerns, whereas Gregory is simply uninterested in the biological questions altogether. I therefore think that Fuller has something constructive to offer ID, whereas I think Gregory is basically trying to scuttle the whole ID project. That's why Gregory doesn't get much of a sympathetic ear here. Not because people here have anything against social science -- they don't -- but because people here clearly perceive that Gregory has contempt for the very heart of what they are doing.Timaeus
July 23, 2012
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'intelligent design' extends from the source of the Intelligence/intelligence that designs/ed, whatever that may be, and it extends to whoever can recognise it. KF speaks loose and fast about "THE warrant for THE pivotal design inference." Which 'design'? Whose 'design'? Be specific. "why should our [human] intelligence be taken as a guide to intelligence in things we had nothing to do with creating?" - Steve FullerGregory
July 23, 2012
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GS: There is a descriptive name for the tactic you are indulging of insistently and willfully loaded mislabelling to dismiss with prejudice rather than to face a critical and responsive matter on the merits. Rather than get into a cat-fight, I will simply directly conclude that you have nothing of consequence to say to the central importance of focussing a spotlight on the warrant for the pivotal design inference. I notice some evidently grudging concessions after an atmosphere-poisoning lead and that is enough to tell me you at least begin to realise some of us have an inkling about what we are doing, why. I have therefore made adequate record, though the exchange above leaves a distinctly sour taste in my mouth. Good day. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 23, 2012
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What does 'intelligent design' extend from and to? Please don’t take it personally, KF, that I largely dismiss your diversions. I just find your language and jargon hard to make sense of and your wide-ranging interests distractive to the main topic at hand. We can’t solve all of the problems and challenges at one go and ‘intelligent design’ is not going to do it any more than ‘human extension’ is. Nevertheless, I could discern from your #25 some new connections and overlaps in our respectively different approaches and appreciate your link to V. Havel’s essay and talk of Marxism, rhetoric and ‘evolutionary materialistic scientism.’ I imagine there could be more points of collaboration or agreement that have not yet been discovered and am glad that you keep “plenty [of] room at the table.” One example of jargon, you speak of ‘design theory project.’ I prefer the more common phrase ‘intelligent design movement,’ which of course includes a very small percentage of people who are actually design theorists. Most of the people who support IDM-ID are not theorists and instead (as is usual in movements) gobble-up the ideas by a select few leaders, scientists and scholars. No offence, KF, but I do not currently consider you to be an ID leader, nor a theorist, nor somebody in the IDM-ID who others are following, which however says nothing against people believing and supporting your blog messages and internet works. I’m all for grounding in ‘sound science,’ but my view of science aims to be a global, holistic one, rather than a narrow Anglo-American atomistic one that tends to dismiss a large chunk of the academy as ‘unscientific.’ Knowledge and wisdom are bigger than the simple strategy created to make studies of human beings somehow ‘lesser’ or irrelevant to practicing naturalists/natural scientists. Was the Anglo-American de-humanistic bias erected in order to invalidate studies of Marx and Freud; did it unknowingly serve to elevate Darwin’s naturalistic scientific contribution beyond its proper proportion as a limited study of the natural world? What interests me is working towards enabling people to balance the knowledge spheres, such that humanities and social sciences are properly understood and consulted alongside of and in collaboration with natural-physical sciences that are not strictly materialistic, reductionistic and, as such, dehumanizing. Oh, yes, please include philosophy and religion too. Yes, I’m familiar with some of the exchanges over the Wedge Document. And I don’t agree that the climate (even in the USA) is “unfavourable to design thinkers.” Goodness, there are ‘design thinkers’ in many fields nowadays, including computer programmers, engineers, decorators, artists, managers, operations consultants, politicians, etc.! I find the call for pity toward those supposedly poor ‘design theorists’ in the IDM who have not gained enough credibility or status as academics to be a simple case of sour (revolutionistic) milk. The ‘design’ I’m speaking about now is just not the ‘kind of design’ that IDM-ID wants to promote with its ‘OoL’ and (religiously) implicationistic agenda. The IDM could easily drop its openly spoken ‘religious implications’ feature of ID (e.g. Scott Minnich in “Unlocking the Mystery of Life,” history of the IDM, DVD) and move forward scientifically by recognising a wide range of ‘design thinkers’ that it currently ignores because of its extra-scientific, cultural renewal mission. I’ve been studying ‘design theorists’ outside of IDM-ID, e.g. Buckminster Fuller, John Chris Jones, Horst Rittel, et. al., and those thinkers are or would be predominantly on-board with ‘Human Extension,’ but not with IDM-ID. It seems to me you folks who support IDM-ID should ask youselves: Why not? “Theology would be able to inform us about the nature of the designer, and thus provide a route to allocating a value to the likelihood of a structure given it was designed.” – A Gene Yes, theology could speak to ‘the character of’ the designer. Dependency on likelihood, however, is one of the great flaws of the IDM-ID approach. A probabilistic science is not nearly as powerful as a history-detecting or uncovering study when it comes to ‘design.’ Human identity and self-understanding is vastly more important in most peoples’ lives than whether or not a bacterial flagellum can self-organise from disparate parts or if it requires transcendental intervention from a mysterious (un-nameable) intelligent designer, which cannot be ‘proven’ by natural scientific methods. Learning to get our priorities right is a real feature of this science, philosophy and religion conversation. There is no need to look to natural sciences when answers are more appropriately sought in an alternative knowledge domain. It finally seems that Stephen C. Meyer, DI Director and IDM-ID leader is on the right track by acknowledging, through the work of Steve Fuller, theology’s necessary involvement in or relationship with ID theory. “So someone, somewhere, has to challenge the worldview whilst the ID scientists are doing the science, in order for that science to begin to appear ‘plausible’. Part of that is challenging the landscape of ideas around and beyond ID itself.” – Jon Let’s take the human predicament seriously to go deeper into what is 'plausible': Was Apartheid in South Africa ‘intelligently designed?’ Were the London riots of 2011 ‘intelligently designed?’ Is the social security system in the United States, one of the most unequal countries in the world, ‘intelligently designed?’ Was the US law declaring a right to bear arms ‘intelligently designed?’ Was the ‘first among equals’ policy of the Roman Catholic Church ‘intelligently designed?’ Was the United Nations (Universal) Declaration of Human Rights ‘intelligently designed?’ Was it an ‘intelligent design’ by Muslim leaders to create an Islamic Declaration of Human Rights (CDHRI), rejecting the so-called ‘universal’ UNDHR? How can we even speak of ‘intelligent design’ unless we can broadly agree on the ‘intelligence’ behind the design? As Steve Fuller noted, “specifying the ‘intelligence’ behind the design becomes important.” If IDM-ID doesn’t get this, if they refuse to highlight the supposed ‘source of intelligence’ based on whatever status-seeking or homeland security reasons, then the power of their paradigm must suffer because of it. There is no way around this. Since Human Extension identifies the ‘source of intelligence,’ at least in a proximate sense, it is much more powerful in terms of explanation, i.e. ‘scientifically’ than is IDM-ID. If you want to discuss, debate or doubt what 'scientifically' means in human-social sciences, that's fine as a diversion. The power of identifying the 'intelligence' behind the 'designs' that we can study is nevertheless still there, glaring at you in the depths of your rational, emotional and intuitive soul. This is why Human Extension is an improvement upon IDM-ID in its sovereign realm.Gregory
July 23, 2012
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GS: I see in your estimation I merit a largely dismissive footnote. In response, first, I think you will be familiar with the exchanges over the Wedge Document, a document that was intended as a promotion of the DI's CSC, as saying in summary that there was a wider cultural struggle that had to find anchorage in sound science and analysis. This was twisted into a widely promoted allegation that the design theory project was a political agenda without scientific merit. That underscores why I keep saying that there has to be grounding in sound science and related analysis, especially the epistemology and logic that underpins scientific warrant. Without that, we are just looking at yet another struggle of battling ideologues, with the balance of cultural power decidedly unfavourable to the design thinkers. But, in the back of my mind is the story of the struggle led by William Wilberforce, the very first case in modern government where a mass people movement on human rights and related morality decisively shaped policy through an uphill struggle. The heart of that struggle was that there was a sound case on the merits with moral implications that had to be made and had to keep on being made in the teeth of all sorts of opposition and diversionary tricks. I gather, at one point someone challenged Wilberforce to a duel and made him -- the proverbial 98 lb weakling -- out to be a coward for pointing out his moral objections to such a barbarous practice. And, the core group that led that struggle was tiny, maybe five key supporters and one parliamentarian who stood and kept standing, defeat after defeat, then delay after delay. Let us just say that the inscription on his tomb in Westminster Abbey speaks volumes on the ultimate judgement of history. An uphill, determined struggle for the truth and the right can prevail, and will prevail. Now, you ask under what head several topics should be consulted. The answer is that hey are inherently interdisciplinary in character and need to be addressed from several perspectives, as we here deal with a problematique and need to build capacity. Sociological issues and related movement dynamics are relevant but not decisive. Rhetoric tells us why and how arguments frame and shape discourse, but in the end tell us what we already know: if men were less ruled by passions and more by sense, truth and right we would have less trouble. Phil and Theol provide grounding contexts, including how knowledge claims are warranted, which is where things will have to stand in the end. The rise of the Internet shows how media of influence can shift as the capital costs to inform are now getting lower and lower; so, a new media, snowballing Samizdat strategy can go far. Indeed, if each successive person reaches one person per month with a message, in three years the message will reach the whole world, despite what Big Brother and his henchmen want, so the issue is to gain attention and concern, in a context that shows the balance of the truth and the right in the teeth of Big Brother's power systems that enable a minority to exert disproportionate power over the mass of people. And surely, science -- from its very name -- is in large part about knowledge. Where, science, Math and Engineering shade off into one another imperceptibly, where Computing also fits in. The History of ideas, that of science and wider history are relevant too. And more. So, there is plenty room at the table. And yes, the story of ID and the study of the social contexts and forces that influence its fortunes from day to day, year to year is relevant. But, it is not decisive. The pivotal battle to be won is the one that grounds the design inference as legitimate scientific knowledge and practice; regardless of what hose committed to evolutionary materialistic scientism and who dominate key institutions may say. Which thus includes exposing the inescapable self-referential incoherence of evolutionary materialist scientism, and the question-begging, censoring imposition of materialism by the back-door of methodological rules and attempted redefinitions. As you may know from what I have said, that it is also time to declare independence on science education, and provide independent and balancing education, that I also believe a key second front is education which is the power transmission that moves us from debates to building up a critical mass of people who understand the issues and can address them effectively. That, in key part, is how mainstreaming works. As it works, slowly, almost imperceptibly, people will recognise where the balance on the merits lies. And then the issue is decided. Yes, there may come the tipping point incidents that will pitch us to the conclusion, but the groundwork of a credible alternative has to be laid long before the momentum shifts in light of critical incidents. That is why I insist that we need to focus the core, we need to build alliances to those willing to work with us, and we need to stand on our own two feet. I know how power elites dependent on a premise that is irretrievably fallacious and/or morally indefensible tend to act when they feel threatened, and I know how they seek to discredit those they deem threats, generally by attacking the source rather than dealing with the issue. And I know that the unhinged fringe will take the elites' propaganda much further, sometimes to not only slander and vicious smears, but outright threats and actual violence. (Indeed, my family has been threatened. They picked the wrong man to do that to.) Hence, the madness of crowds, and of lone wolves and wolf packs. But then, I have already lived through a similar case: the collapse of Marxism. In the 70's it looked like the Marxists would win, especially in the 3rd world. Then came along a cluster of leaders at the turn of the 1980's and there was a decade of culminating ideological struggle. And I recall the vicious personal attacks and persuasive but utterly deceptive propaganda [a lot of it taught as sound social sciences], internationally and regionally. My homeland had a small scale civil war. Then between 1989 and 1991, the collapse came. It may have looked like it came out of the blue, but the groundwork had to have been laid and the case that prevailed had to ground itself. Never mind the dismissive sneers of the majority of the educated elites and the chattering classes with their ever so clever, superficially persuasive talking points. (I especially respect Havel's essay, The Power of the Powerless. One essay like that that cuts to the heart of the truth is worth any number of dissertations and monographs that academics may produce. Notice, it took a decade to bear full fruit.) All of that is deeply embedded in my bones. It may help you to recognise that I also take the case in Ac 27 as a managerial case study in miniature of how such things often tend to play out in communities and institutions influenced by factions and agendas in the face of decision-making challenges and balances of power. Sometimes, one needs to knowingly fight a long fighting retreat on principle, in order to buy time and build strength for the moment of crisis when the balance will tip. (And I have a lot of respect for history.) If you want a current significantly parallel case, observe what has happened with the AGW movement since 2009 and the climategate revelations, despite denials and pretences that it is business as usual. Cf here on how the IPCC project is unravelling. KFkairosfocus
July 22, 2012
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Gregory,
Sorry, nullasalus, but I’ve checked the correspondence. Not once did you address ‘human extension’ or attempt to confront or question its meaning. Nor have you yet here in this thread. Nor has anyone else, except Jon, who made a good summary, involving the notion of ‘intention’.
I made it clear what I thought the direction of your piece was going to be, I clearly made what criticisms I did stating what goal I was intending you to reach. At no point did you say "But wait, what about human extension? That's what's really important here." And if that's the point, I'm apparently not the only one who missed it. Sorry, Gregory. But when almost no one is talking about what you thought was the central topic of your post, there's at least a chance it's because you didn't communicate it well. You had your opportunity to make things clear, and I'd have worked with you on that, happily. I made no secret of what I thought the thrust of your article was.
The dialogue I speak of between science, philosophy and religion is and can be significantly enhanced by involving the human-social sciences.
Wonderful. How? And how does it do this in a way that is not already covered by science, philosophy, religion and/or theology? See, this response...
If you do not understand why, then reading short blog posts about this is unlikely to change your mind. It is only our humanity that is at stake.
...is cowardly twaddle. I can - and have, in the past - explain what philosophy brings to that table that science doesn't. I can explain what theology brings in that philosophy is incapable of. I can argue what I think science's proper sphere is, what it can do and what it can't. And I can do all these things pretty concisely when appropriate. But look, you're apparently afraid of doing so for whatever reason. So, I'll take a stab for you. Social sciences differ from philosophy, science, religion and theology because they touch on spheres that are at once supremely important for everything from day to day live to broad cultural vision, yet which aren't addressed by either of the four topics comprehensively. Philosophy can give all kinds of insights, from ethical claims to the existence and nature of God, but it's largely limited to a purely intellectual realm. Religion and theology concern themselves with understanding revelation and God. Science can investigate the world and develop theories and models we can use for technological purposes, or to understand said world. But the social sciences deal with far and away the majority of day to day human activities - how we think about things when we're actually living, building and maintaining families, societies, businesses, universities, and everything else. This is, like it or not, where the majority of what people would call the 'culture war' is fought. You can have a rock-solid ID inference, it can be as scientific as you like, but if you don't have the cultural and social supports necessary in place, it's not going to do you any good. And one of the original concerns of the ID movement was, specifically, cultural in nature. Here's a simple way to put it: do you think culture is important? Is it an overriding concern? Then whether you like it or not, you're going to find yourself needing at least some knowledge of the social sciences to have the effect you desire. And that's why ID proponents should really pay more attention to the social sciences as a whole - because believe me, ID critics are paying attention. There, Gregory. Nice, clear, direct. The fact that you were unwilling or unable to say something along those lines when asked is depressing. By the way, I said zero about 'physics envy' or biologists. I included philosophy, religion and theology in my list when asking what social sciences do that these things do not. But I've got to say, one way to make me think you've got Issues with the hard (or, in the case of biologists, harder) sciences is to snap at me that you absolutely do NOT have Issues, out of the blue.nullasalus
July 22, 2012
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Sorry, nullasalus, but I've checked the correspondence. Not once did you address 'human extension' or attempt to confront or question its meaning. Nor have you yet here in this thread. Nor has anyone else, except Jon, who made a good summary, involving the notion of 'intention'. In the Introduction to this thread you wrote: "I’m very skeptical of the direction of Gregory’s project for a number of reasons." Do these reasons have anything to do with 'Human Extension' as an alternative way to look at ID and as as alternative to 'human evolution', or not? How can you be skeptical of a direction that you have shown no sign even to acknowledge *as* a direction? nullasalus, I'm not here to teach an introductory course on social sciences and feel no need to defend 'what social sciences have to offer' given your displayed reluctance to credit scholarly work and academia. Simply said, I do not suffer from 'physics envy' or have any kind of inferiority complex when standing alongside of biologists (and I've worked in the same office space with evolutionary biologists, by the way). Fuller's exhortation to 'stop defering,' as I mentioned above, has payed humanitarian dividends. The dialogue I speak of between science, philosophy and religion is and can be significantly enhanced by involving the human-social sciences. If you do not understand why, then reading short blog posts about this is unlikely to change your mind. It is only our humanity that is at stake. Please go and seek and (even in IDM-ID probabilistic, theology-neutral terms) you shall find!Gregory
July 22, 2012
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Gregory, Not once in our private correspondence (and in your editing and suggestions, which are still nevertheless appreciated) did you actually confront the meaning of the term ‘human extension,’ nor did you make any comments about it at all. You failed to address Human Extension entirely. Instead, you insisted that my aim (i.e. what you wanted to believe my aim to be) was to talk about “the relevance of social sciences to ID,” as if that were “the entire point of my post.” You went through more than one revision with me, gave me your final version to be posted ASAP - and that's when the comments stopped. Further, I made my understanding of what you were trying to offer clear. You did not correct me on that front. You speak of philosophy and metaphysics, but have still not directly addressed my position. As was shown in the thread discussing “ID in Steve Fuller’s words,” the main topic of conversation and ‘controversy’ is a dialogue between science, philosophy and religion or theology. You say speak of, but what I'm doing is asking: what do the social sciences offer that is not offered by science, philosophy, religion and/or theology, in terms of your proposal? Go ahead, spell it out for me, because I honestly do not get it.nullasalus
July 22, 2012
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(cont'd) “So, ID proponents undermine human value by observing the natural world in a systematic manner. And for an ID proponent to observe regularities in the natural world, and indeed to speak of the natural world in the language of systematic observation, is to ‘forget’ that he/she is a person[?]” – UB It is not simply “observing the natural world in a systematic manner” that is (or at least, can be) dehumanising or ‘undermining human value’. But rather it is the pseudo-objectivistic approach of positivistic natural scientists that play the neutrality card, suggesting that ‘just the facts’ are the only features of the discourse worthy of mention and that the actual people who are searching for the facts are unimportant or marginal. Mike Gene and Timaeus both play into this disenchanting game with their ‘personality doesn’t matter’ approach to science. “Make the scientist invisible” – this is a mantra of dehumanising logic. No, UB, we shouldn’t ‘forget’ that we are people. Instead, what some people do is to insist that we should outsource the meaning of ‘humanity’ to the extremist belief in ‘science for science’s sake,’ instead of in the common belief in ‘science for the sake of humanity’ and human development, cooperation, etc. “Should ID really seek to transcend its own phenomenological paradigms, which are limited to the methodology of drawing inferences from data, and transform itself into a multidisciplinary study?” – StephenB ID already is a multidisciplinary study; check the record. And I would add that ‘design studies’ might be a more favourable term than your preferred term of ‘ID science.’ For example, the field called ‘Science and Technology Studies’ (STS, which also goes by Science, Technology and Society) is legitimate whether it is called ‘scientific’ or not because it impacts people and provides knowledge and information, even sometimes wisdom about the topics it studies. There is no shame in speaking of a field that ‘studies’ instead of insisting that a field is ‘scientific,’ iow, requiring its scientificity to validate it. “We know what questions the current paradigms are supposed to answer, but what problems are the ‘updated’ versions expected to deal with?” – StephenB This is the 25th anniversary of Steve Fuller’s Journal “Social Epistemology” and there are multiple publications and media productions going along with it (see SE On-line). This is ‘updated,’ cutting-edge talk. I encourage that there are many things IDers can learn from this and from Fuller’s approach to ‘intelligent design’. Likewise, his studies of ‘paradigms,’ e.g. via his work on Kuhn and Popper, is worth reading, especially for those who have bought into the ‘revolutionary’ rhetoric presented by some leaders of IDM-ID. That he is not a professional biologist, so what? Timaeus asked: “if Gregory is really serious about the apparent alliance that he is offering ID people.” This was responded to by TM, who said: “He [Gregory] is not offering an alliance. He is drawing a line in the sand.” TM is right. And Steve Fuller clarifies the reason: “why should our [human] intelligence be taken as a guide to intelligence in things we had nothing to do with creating? Well, this is where the imago dei doctrine comes in.” Here's the rub: Not unless or until the DI-IDM addresses these things [their obvious dependency on analogies with human intelligence for “things we had nothing to do with creating” and their flight from theology, from imago Dei, which Meyer may have recently, according to Jon, taken a step in correcting] will I accept what they mean by ‘intelligent design’ (IDM-ID) as an objectivistic, pseudo-naturalistic, presupposition/conclusion in biological sciences. Human Extension instead offers a ‘reasonable’ approach to ‘design’ in daily human existence, in our choices, actions and their consequences. This topic is real and meaningful for human beings globally in a way that speaking speculatively about ‘origins of life’ or ‘origins of biological information’ in pseudo-scientific, proto-scientific or even (sometimes) scientific language is not. This is where StephenB’s question becomes relevant: “How does one make an inference to design from data if the affirmation of design is already present in the form of an religious assumption?” One openly and forthrightly admits that the discourse of ‘intelligent design’ involves science, philosophy *and* religion or theology, without exclusion. ID is not and cannot be about ‘science-only.’ Human Extension as a reflexive social science approach involves this as a built-in meaning; IDM-ID does not. Why not then listen more carefully to what Steve Fuller says: “ID is the place where the science-theology nexus is taken seriously as an intellectual project, and is in fact what makes ID an exciting research orientation.” … “Sometimes I think ID supporters are ashamed of having to rely on God to understand the rational character of the universe.” Do you wish to offer an alternative hypothesis of “what makes ID an exciting research orientation” than what Fuller says, StephenB, or to display why or that you are not ashamed? “The prospect of human-designed and built kinematic self replicators that may evolve through variation and selection through success, puts your axioms 1 and 2 at immediate question.” – KF No, the point is that they were, as you say, “human-designed and built” in the first place, that there was a choice to design and build them, that they did not ‘evolve into being (or becoming)’ without human ‘interference’ or ‘potency.’ Iow, the so-called ‘self-replicators’ could not replicate themselves if they had not already been invented, innovated or created by human ‘intelligence’ in the first place. Thus, the replicators ‘extend’ from human decisions, designs, actions, etc. and the axioms above regarding Human Extension are maintained. “you are seeing as ideology that which is a scientific methodological approach.” – KF No. Instead, I’m seeking to help distinguish between ideology, methodology, ontology and epistemology, both so that natural scientists don’t (continue to) make claims to truth which are in fact just extensions of their worldview, or what some social scientists would call making a ‘self-fulfilling prophesy,’ and so that we can collectively come to respect that ‘creativity’ and innovation, invention, scientific discovery, artistic genius, etc. cannot be reduced to mechanistic or even naturalistic features of life. There is more to life out there; let’s go find it! “Yes, I did.” – nullasalus No, you didn’t. Not once in our private correspondence (and in your editing and suggestions, which are still nevertheless appreciated) did you actually confront the meaning of the term ‘human extension,’ nor did you make any comments about it at all. You failed to address Human Extension entirely. Instead, you insisted that my aim (i.e. what you wanted to believe my aim to be) was to talk about “the relevance of social sciences to ID,” as if that were “the entire point of my post.” The reality, however, is that my post/article was and is aimed to reveal ‘an alternative world of ID,’ i.e. a perspective that differs from IDM-ID and that is/can be more meaningful to people and which can help them to ‘put IDM-ID in its place,’ to ‘situate it’ (as Donna Haraway and David Livingstone would say). Since you’ve said multiple times that you are not an ID proponent, nullasalus, I don’t see why this should be such a problem for you, unless you really do have criticisms of Human Extension as I have presented it, which you have yet to share. You speak of philosophy and metaphysics, but have still not directly addressed my position. As was shown in the thread discussing “ID in Steve Fuller’s words,” the main topic of conversation and ‘controversy’ is a dialogue between science, philosophy and religion or theology. Denuding the ‘neutrality myth’ is but one feature of my approach, yes, as well as it is of Fuller’s and many others in contemporary social sciences, especially those who have studied sociology of science and science (and technology) studies, as both Fuller and I have. “Push that truth.” – Jon Yes, that’s the task at hand. Let us extend this understanding, or expand it, as StephenB rightly noted as a neighbour-concept to extension, so that people (even natural-physical scientists) can openly acknowledge that there are ‘designers,’ i.e. human beings, and ‘designs’ that we can study all around us. Again, UD readers, please note that the focus is placed particularly on ‘humanitas,’ and on ‘(re-)humanising’ the science, philosophy, theology discourse. The focus is *not* on the scientificity of ID. Fuller talks about dehumanising and the casualisation of human life in part because of the ‘species egalitarian’ view of Darwinian evolution. To move beyond that, one needn’t follow in Darwin’s footsteps, seeking natural scientific credibility in the same ways that he did or that biologists and botanists do today. Instead, the goal here is to infuse the conversation with ‘humanitarian’ views that seek to elevate the dignity of humankind, as individuals that we are, as communities and as a whole. Thanks, Gregory p.s. I wrote this before seeing KF’s recent post, in which he tips hat to TRIZ. The issues of ‘materialism’ and ‘scientism’ are best studied in which scientific/academic field, KF? Who studies ‘ideology’ and its impact and influence on peoples’ views of reality? Is this not a suitable topic for ‘social epistemology,’ the field that Steve Fuller basically opened and has developed over the last 25+ years? I’m sorry, KF, but you continually go on tangents to your work and lose the main points of the thread. Please try to keep on topic and address the main issues. Saying “scientism refutes itself” is redundant; we all know that and in this thread, we’re trying to go deeper than that. The Dembski-Marks-Ewert partnership is almost entirely empty of humanity (and I’ve met W. Ewert and W. Dembski, so I ‘sense/remember’ their humanity differently than those who haven’t); it does not touch on meaning, purpose, goals, plans, teleology that resonates with actual people around the world on a daily, existential way. If you’re looking for a “reasonable alternative scientific approach” in this thread, KF, one possibility of that is discussed in the meaning of ‘Human Extension,’ if you would care to focus on it and thus to keep on-topic.Gregory
July 22, 2012
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Let me begin to address some of the thoughtful points that have been raised in this thread. Thanks to Jon and Steve for keeping patient with me, for helping keep me patient. It is difficult when some people think it is your motive to ‘become important’ rather than simply to do good work/scholarship and to follow your calling. In any case, I’m glad for your support, challenges and provocations. This message responds to Jon, Timaeus, UB, KF and StephenB, while again invoking the work of Steve Fuller. As Jon says in #5, it is “evolution [a]s a universal assumption” that I’m challenging with the notion of Human Extension, which has the additional feature of opening-up a potentially fruitful discussion of what it means for humanity to ‘extend’ itself, ourselves; us. This seems to be a major steeple-hurdle: “nature might well be seen to look more like ‘superhuman extension’ than merely ‘evolution’.” – Jon Does the ‘super-’ prefix added to ‘human’ mean to speak of gods, God, or animated action heroes, or…? I hadn’t thought of ‘superhuman extension’ before and could not clearly imagine what you mean by it. “The human sciences would be harnessed into studying the nature of design” – Jon No, let’s be more specific with ‘nature’ here. The human sciences, what I call the human-social sciences (since human beings are ‘social’ creatures/animals) study personality and character, not only ‘the nature of things.’ Iow, we study more than ‘nature-only,’ we study culture, politics, communities, relationships, associations, institutions, etc. So, ‘the character of design’ instead of 'the nature of design' would be the more suitable and preferred language in those fields. What feature of personality, culture, society, humanitas is invested in a ‘design’ or ‘product’ of human-making, e.g. technology? This is where I turn to Marshall McLuhan as a giant in the field who was way ahead of his time. This is where the notion of ‘human extension’ originally comes from: Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man (1964). “ID has always been a matter of ‘hearts and minds.’ Design can never be proven, but merely demonstrated to be the only alternative to ridiculously low probabilities.” – Jon Yes, I very much agree with this. One finds it difficult to raise the topic of ID without observing heightened tension, emotion, even the hair on peoples’ necks stands on end. This need not be a ‘culture war’ version of ‘hearts and minds,’ but instead as Fuller speaks about positively ‘offending’ by academics, “if it’s backed by reason and evidence.” We appeal to peoples’ sense of reason and also provide evidence that we gather using ‘scientific methods,’ as scholars or laypersons do. The point Jon raises about ‘low probability’ and that “Design can never be proven” (meaning, if I properly understand him, the IDM-ID insistence on ‘design in [biological] nature’) is important also because the ideology of probabilism has influenced both IDers and anti-IDers alike, e.g. where they turn to coin-flipping or computer simulation to try to ‘prove’ their positions. If ‘specified complexity’ is only meant to address biological structures and systems, but not social structures and systems, then ‘design’ has a more meagre significance in most peoples’ lives (what % of the world are biologists or care that much about biological science?). By shifting the fulcrum of the discussion into human-social sciences and focussing on the choices made by living, breathing human beings (aka. ‘designers’), the burden of ‘scientific’ proof also shifts, so that discussions of ethics, values, goals and dreams of the global human community can be included. “Since to a large body of natural scientists there are no designers (worldview axiom) the ID work is wrong.” – Jon Yes, this is a crucial bridging topic for various parties involved. It facilitates promoting a more balanced discourse where natural-physical scientists actively look to human-social scientists on topics of meaning, purpose and plan that go beyond the ‘pay-scale’ of merely being a specialist natural scientist, who knows narrowly, but not generally enough to engage humanity. “ID people are extremely conscious that human beings are intentional beings, that they plan and devise and design and choose and act, and are not merely driven by the wind of some impersonal force of ‘social evolution’ or ‘technological evolution’ etc. Who has stressed the fact of ‘human exceptionality’ more than ID people?” – Timaeus Yes, IDM-ID has given some focus to ‘human exceptionality.’ Indeed, this is one of the sectors at the DI, which is led by Wesley J. Smith, with whom I have been in contact. I didn’t receive an answer from Ann Gauger on a recent UD thread (she wouldn’t even acknowledge if/that we met in person at the DI’s Summer Program in 2008!) about whether her recent book on human origins, co-written with D. Axe and C. Luskin, has any connection with ID theory or not. Perhaps she is being coy about it and/or perhaps she is a young earth, anti-common descent proponent? At the same time, however, Dembski has supported the notion of ‘technological evolution,’ which he borrows from Genrich Altshuller and the idea of TRIZ (theory of inventive problem solving). So IDM-ID appears to be self-conflicted on this topic, which is one of the reasons I wrote a very short entry for the ISCID Encyclopedia about TRIZ almost 10 years ago – this was my first ‘publication’ on an ID site. Technological Evolution TRIZ Thus, Timaeus (anonymous pro-IDM-ID blogger) claims on behalf of ‘ID people’ that they are in fact against ‘technological evolution,’ while William Dembski, as a leader of the IDM, claims that ID is for ‘technological evolution.’ Personally, I think Dembski has taken the wrong track, headed for oblivion, by swallowing the (Soviet) language of ‘evolution’ regarding technology. But there was a contest a few years back here at UD validating ‘technological evolution,’ so it will likely take some convincing still to change Dembski’s mind. This thread is part of that process. (Dembski can contact me if he wants to learn more about TRIZ and the Soviet context in which it was coined.) Personally, I prefer an alternative (non-IDM-ID) language: Technology doesn’t ‘evolve,’ it ‘extends’ from human choices to create, innovate, design, build, etc. This is a significant contribution that Human Extension can make in the human-social sciences and which can also 'extend' beyond them to influence the (sometimes exaggerative) language of natural-physical scientists. That it draws on the visionary work of McLuhan (and of Steve Fuller) adds to its potential validity. So, you can see that you’ve opened up a whirlwind, Timaeus, with your 'evolution' talk. My wonder is if you’ll have the courage to see it through by supporting Human Extension. “human exceptionality, human intentionality, and the ability of human beings to ‘extend’ themselves in various ways” – Timaeus If that is a ‘starting point’ for ‘ID people,’ that’s great! It should not be difficult at all, then, for ID people to accept the notion of ‘human extension’ as an alternative to ‘human evolution.’ My TEDxLCC talk should then be strongly promoted by IDM-IDers, as one of the few TED videos to address ID (and to go beyond it). Indeed, even Timaeus should be interested to read my book on “Human Extension: Before and After Socio-Cultural Evolution,” because it promotes human exceptionality, human intentionality and human extension. This is good news, Timaeus – thanks! “they could deepen their account, and strengthen their argument against the neo-Darwinian chance-worshipers, by developing a fuller account of how design is an extension of personal freedom and intelligence of man” – Timaeus Yes, I agree with that. But that is a challenge in itself to IDM-ID, which does not focus on that, instead investing its energies in ‘scientific proof’ of ‘design’ “mainly in biology.” This is without a doubt the biggest problem with IDM-ID: it is focussed on a single narrow meaning of ‘design in nature’ that it wants to verify, confirm, ‘detect’ using the tools of natural sciences. Thus, for me, the main topic is not ‘origins of life,’ but rather, “thinking God’s thoughts after Him” in the sense of being creative (or ‘creatively destructive’) as people living among and contributing to humanity and society in our respective lifetimes. What Timaeus miscomprehends to be ‘incomprehensible’ is because he does not think existentially about ID involving human beliefs, needs, desires, fears, experiences, dreams, values, goals, etc. He wants *every* person to give a rational answer to a mystical question about “chance and design in nature.” Yet not everyone is as detached from reality and uncommitted as Timaeus is, hiding behind his internet persona as he does. And from this obscure position he has the gall to demand of me that I take a stand defending either M. Behe or R. Dawkins on biological questions. But not everyone is called to be a biologist, nor even necessarily cares all that much about biology as an academic field, unless or until a major discovery or breakthrough is made. Biologists can keep silent most of the time, for all I care, because clearly the more important work, the more meaningful work is being done in fields that matter to human beings today, now, in the world that we live in. As Fuller wrote in 2006: “Sociologists should stop deferring to the authority of biologists.” And so I have taken this helpful advice, Timaeus. Have you in your views of ID? So far, it appears not. “I’m puzzled, though, why you [Fuller] think this means that one must ‘specify the intelligence behind the design.’ If you mean by ‘specify’ that ID people should say ‘God’ rather than ‘aliens or time travellers,’ I follow you.” – Timaeus Do you just follow that claim, Timaeus, or do you actually accept it also? No waffling here please. Do you agree that “ID people should say ‘God’” when they attempt to ‘specify the intelligence behind the design?’ Yeah or neigh, have your say, Timaeus! Btw, just from a simple text search: Timaeus used the term ‘ID people’ 24 times in 2 messages! This is a significant statement by him: Timaeus really seems to believe that he speaks for a whole ‘movement’ of ‘ID people’ and not just for his own (situated knowledge) personal meaning of ID. This surprises me, as I hadn’t thought that the person behind the UD blogger name ‘Timaeus’ was an actual leader of the IDM. Maybe he’ll self-reveal to us otherwise? “theology is integral to the distinctiveness of ID as a SCIENTIFIC research programme.” – Fuller In response to which, Timaeus focussed instead on ‘theistic evolutionists’ (i.e. one of his favourite targets) a category of people that Fuller himself strongly criticises. The “new bodies of evidence” topic that Timaeus raises but does not seem to understand is exactly what Human Extension is ‘designed’ for. We can search for human extensions in “all human-made things” as the above axiom indicates. We can likewise look at human enhancements and amplifications of choices based on historical, empirical, comparative and other (social scientific) methods. Here we can make use of ‘leading explanatory principles’ in a way that goes beyond the currently ‘testable’ capabilities of IDM-ID. In other words, we can break new ground that is meaningful to people, not just those involved in a political-religious-scientific movement, mainly of evangelical Christians in the USA, Canada and the U.K. “I’m quite willing to read more of your writing, but I need to be directed.” – Timaeus “Where there’s a will, there’s a way.” Direct yourself, extend yourself, Timaeus. Right now you’re an internet blogger, a sock-puppet with 4+ names. Elevate yourself, become visible, build something; get off your ‘eternal critic’ couch and make a difference! Steve Fuller is doing this and has the courage to face the challenges of critics and the consequences of being possibly seen as a ‘kooky ID supporter.’ Why don’t you show some courage like he does? (cont'd)Gregory
July 22, 2012
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It is quite another thing, though, to say that scientific paradigms should include theological elements in order that each discipline can be illuminated by the other? Why is a mutual partnership not sufficient to serve that purpose?
As I understand it, Prof. Fuller is sugesting that ID really accepts the concept of an interventionist God, and tries to investigate these interventions scientifically. This can only be done by specifying the nature of this god, i.e. through theology.
Should ID really seek to transcend its own phenomenological paradigms, which are limited to the methodology of drawing inferences from data, and transform itself into a multidisciplinary study? How does one extend or expand on “irreducible complexity” in order to make it fit in with this new amalgamation of theology and science? What is the extrapolated version of “specified complexity” supposed to look like? We know what questions the current paradigms are supposed to answer, but what problems are the “updated” versions expected to deal with?
These are problems for ID theorists to grapple. But, to give one example, the design filter can be updated to be fully Bayesian (an approach Dr. Dembski has used in some of his other work), i.e. to weight the possibilities that a structure came about through evolution, or through the intervention of a designer. Theology would be able to inform us about the nature of the designer, and thus provide a route to allocating a value to the likelihood of a structure given it was designed.A Gene
July 22, 2012
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Jon: In short, too much of science has been taken captive by a priori materialism joined to scientism. Immediately, such scientism refutes itself so soon as one realises s/he is accepting the PHILOSOPHICAL claim that only scientific claims can be deemed knowledge, i.e. credibly true on warrant. Oops. Such an absurd view then runs in the question-begging circle from assuming materialism to force fitting on science methodological censorship and attempted redefinitions that enforce materialism, then back again to imagining that the censored science grounds such materialism. The best answer to that is to expose its logical, epistemological, methodological and historical fallacies, as well as the evident ideological agenda and consequences. That is why there is such a fury of smearing when that is done. But, that is a matter for science in society informed by accurate history of science and clear-thinking philosophy of science. The flash-point will probably be education policy, and the institutions have been taken ideological captive. So, the systemic fraud -- at top level the folks pushing this must know or at minimum full well should know better -- has to be exposed and enough people with common sense have to walk away and create independent education efforts. Hence, my IOSE. That is a public education effort, but it depends on actually having a reasonable alternative scientific approach that corrects the blunders and removes the blinders, also exposing unethical behaviour. So far, we have not got to science. If science is being methodologically corrupted and censored, there needs to be a movement of correction. One that is patently validly scientific per what science objectively is and does. Such a movement needs to go back to sound methods, and to address the point where the science is going off the rails. Here, on inferring causal explanation based on known dynamics and empirically tested reliable signs of such. Which is what the design inference project is doing. Now, this needs to be a part of a wider movement indeed. And, increasingly it is, for science shades over imperceptibly into a sister discipline with at least as much credibility: engineering. Which CENTRES on design. So, the logical alliance for progress is with things like: the theory of inventive problem solving and technological evolution [TRIZ], with computing [especially assessment of evolutionary search algorithms], and with studies of creating self-replicating systems tied to technology clusters for development and, onward, solar system colonisation. As we more and more see what is involved in self replicating systems, it will become quite evident that the notion that such could have spontaneously originated in some warm little pond will become patently ridiculous. So far Rep Rap is a beginning. And, surprise -- not -- that is just what is happening, as the Dembski-Marks partnership has shown. The answer to a culture and institutions gone wrong is reformation. KFkairosfocus
July 22, 2012
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StephenB Don't take anything I say as cheerleading for Gregory's or Steve Fuller's programmes, but just as my reaction to them as, essentialy, a lover of truth. My reaction to yours to me @ #9 and the general point @ #16 is to do with the sociology concept of "plausibility". Making the case for design from, say, irreducible complexity or information theory is largely a scientific pursuit. Getting the world of science, and to a lesser extent the public world, to accept it is another matter. That's because it's outside the worldview of those communities, assuming as they do a naturalistic way of thinking that includes all the betes noirs like methodological naturalism, the undirectedness evolution, the determinism of natural law and so on. We are blind, usually, to whatever lies outside our worldview. It just seems implausible - which is why you might find good evidence for demon possession (for example), and even get it published, but make no ripples on the landscape of scientific thought - simply because demons are invisible nowadays. Design, except to rather kooky Eastern Europeans to whose work Gregory has linked me, implies a designer. Since to a large body of natural scientists there are no designers (worldview axiom) the ID work is wrong. Now let's publish to that effect, or maybe in a few cases even read it (with those blinkers on) - but the result will be the same: it's wrong, like we said. You'll be telling us there are demons next, or that prayer works. So someone, somewhere, has to challenge the worldview whilst the ID scientists are doing the science, in order for that science to begin to appear "plausible". Part of that is challenging the landscape of ideas around and beyond ID itself. Who says there is no designer? Science itself started from the assumption that there is, and (as a number have pointed out) becomes increasingly incoherent when the designer is jettisoned. Push that truth. And in any case, don't even the US statistics show that a majority of educated people believe religiously in a particular designer who matches (surprise surprise) many of the characteristics necessary to what ID science is demonstrating? How consistent is that with denying the plausibility of design in nature, necessitating the TE trick of making God responsible for faking the appearance of design. Push the inconsistency of that to the prevalent theistic worldview. Look at any issue on which public attitudes have changed over time: racism, animal rights, ecology etc etc. You'll find that scientific evidence was a marginal, or even counter-relevant, factor. The key thing was making the unthinkable thinkable, then acceptable (and then, usually, compulsory if people are off their guard). In ID's case, there is the distinct advantage that it's not an attempt to sell unsubstantiated lies - change the worldview, and the case can be argued on scientific merit. That may have little to do with how Gregory or Steve are thinking, but it arises, in my view, from what they see.Jon Garvey
July 21, 2012
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At the risk of being increasingly irksome, I have more questions. It is one thing to say that theology and science should be mutual partners in the acquisition of knowledge. I would agree with that proposition. It is quite another thing, though, to say that scientific paradigms should include theological elements in order that each discipline can be illuminated by the other? Why is a mutual partnership not sufficient to serve that purpose? Should ID really seek to transcend its own phenomenological paradigms, which are limited to the methodology of drawing inferences from data, and transform itself into a multidisciplinary study? How does one extend or expand on “irreducible complexity” in order to make it fit in with this new amalgamation of theology and science? What is the extrapolated version of “specified complexity” supposed to look like? We know what questions the current paradigms are supposed to answer, but what problems are the “updated” versions expected to deal with? Or, perhaps ID's most talented thinkers are being asked to abandon altogether what, for them, are scientific paradigms and to come up with something new from scratch. If trailblazers like Dembski and Behe, who, in the minds of their sociologist critics, cannot be trusted to discern science from non-science, why should they be expected to do nobler things that would require still more discernment? Who exactly is supposed to think this thing through? The scientists, whose vision it is not?-- or the sociologists, whose vision it is?StephenB
July 21, 2012
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Dr. Fuller: First, let me say that I am one of the people who *has* read some of your material -- your book *Dissent over Descent*, which I found very stimulating, and many of your blog columns and responses here. I also enjoyed your podcast conversation with Berlinski and Lennox. I'm certainly not an ID proponent who's ashamed of talking about God or theology, and I'm interested in your "Franciscan" approach (which in the past you have commented on in contrast with the Thomist approach) to the relationship between divine and human intelligence. I've also greatly appreciated the way you have thumped the NCSE for its politicized use of the notion of "methodological naturalism." I certainly agree with you that the very possibility of the scientific understanding of nature makes a lot more sense if we assume that the mind of man is like the mind of the creator of nature. You use the notion of "image of God" to convey this likeness. I'm well aware of the historical influence of the notion of "image of God" upon Western developments, and in fact have published some scholarly work on it. If you are interested in more details I will write to you privately and tell you where you can find it. At the same time, the specific phrase "image of God" is clearly not required; the Greeks believed that the mind of man was essentially divine, or partook of divinity, and for that reason could understand the cosmos. This might be the equivalent of what you mean when you speak of "image of God," but the Greeks did not use that phrase, and they hadn't read Genesis. (Unless you are still holding out for the authenticity of the Hermetic corpus!) So the notion that we have minds like the mind of the maker of the world does not require Genesis, though the phrasing of Genesis certainly gave that notion a powerful purchase upon the subsequent history of the West, as the truths of Athens and Jerusalem flowed together. (By the way, just to indicate where I'm coming from, I'm a textual scholar and historian of ideas who has spent a great deal of time reading Genesis in Hebrew and Plato's Timaeus and other texts in Greek, as well as tracing the relative influence of Greek and Hebraic understandings of creation and nature from ancient times through to the present.) I find that sometimes you make remarks that are too terse and elliptical to evaluate. Here is one: "Yes, I strongly believe that theology is integral to the distinctiveness of ID as a SCIENTIFIC research programme. Anyone who finds this idea preposterous (as opposed to simply wrong) really should be a theistic evolutionist ..." This is a strange thing to say. The theistic evolutionists -- notably at BioLogos, but also elsewhere, are precisely those who say we cannot talk about "design" in nature outside of the assumptions of Christian faith. So if one found the idea of linking theology to design inferences "preposterous," one would not be a theistic evolutionist. It is the ID people, e.g., Behe, who say that personal faith is not necessary in order to infer design. I am sure you know this, so I cannot understand what you mean by your statement. Perhaps you could clarify. My question above is connected with the question of "natural theology"; as you know, Barth and his disciples savaged the project of natural theology. On BioLogos and elsewhere in American TE-dom, there is a similar strong distaste for it, the argument being that we can see the designing hand of God in nature only through the eyes of faith, not through merely human reason. I do not think that this is your position, based on what you have said above and elsewhere. I would think that you would argue that natural theology is a possibility precisely because of the kinship between the human and divine minds; we can see evidence of the designer because the designer of nature thinks as we do. And that is a "natural" power that human beings have (because they are made in the image of God) -- they don't have to superadd "faith in Jesus" to those natural powers in order to be able to recognize the divine hand in nature. Thus, I presume that you would endorse at least some forms of natural theology. But surely the ID people, even the ID people as they exist now, i.e., not yet transformed by your own ideas -- would agree with you about the possibility of natural theology. You also wrote: "A science worth taking seriously needs a research programme that aims to extend its leading explanatory principles by testing them against new bodies of evidence." Are you unaware of the research of the BioLogic Institute? There, ID scientists such as Axe, Gauger, and Sternberg are "extending their leading explanatory principles by testing them against new bodies of evidence" on a daily basis; their results are published in the journal BioComplexity. I'm puzzled, though, why you think this means that one must "specify the intelligence behind the design." If you mean by "specify" that ID people should say "God" rather than "aliens or time travellers," I follow you. But beyond saying "God"? Surely you are not suggesting that Axe, Gauger, etc., won't be able to do a stitch of work on the design of proteins until they narrow down "God" to the Catholic God, the Reformed God, the Lutheran God, etc.? Or until they affirm the Nicene Creed? Or until they endorse the results of the Seven Ecumenical Councils? Or the Westminster Confession? How "specific" a notion of God do you think is required in order for ID proponents to do good scientific research? I have not found any answer to this question in anything of yours that I have read. I get the point about man being made in the image of God; but that is still a very broad affirmation, one that covers all Christians and Jews, and doesn't nail down very much. If you are saying that ID proponents need to accept that they are made in the image of God, and after that, their science will be just fine -- that isn't much of a specification of the designer's powers, thoughts, motives, habits, etc. So you are being too terse. Are there any writings of yours where you have spelled out the minimum number of beliefs about God (beyond the belief that we are made in God's image) that ID people need to hold onto in order to do good ID science? And would those minimum beliefs be such that non-Christians, e.g., Jews, Muslims, would be allowed to get in on ID science? I'm quite willing to read more of your writing, but I need to be directed. I have read what Gregory and others have said about your thought, but I would rather get it from the horse's mouth. Best wishes, Dr. Fuller.Timaeus
July 21, 2012
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Let me make a couple of comments in passing. First, I applaud Gregory's and Jon's patience in dealing with the people on this blog. I know everyone is well-intentioned but it really seems that people expect that all their questions will be answered without reading more about the people whose views they're questioning. My views about ID are available in many different forms, both in print and on video. ID is clearly a very complex thing and there is a wide variety of views on how it should develop. Yes, I strongly believe that theology is integral to the distinctiveness of ID as a SCIENTIFIC research programme. Anyone who finds this idea preposterous (as opposed to simply wrong) really should be a theistic evolutionist or perhaps just an evolutionist. ID is the place where the science-theology nexus is taken seriously as an intellectual project, and is in fact what makes ID an exciting research orientation. Like Gregory, I draw a strong distinction between religion and theology. Religion is about faith and ritual, which is fine but not especially relevant to science. Theology, however, is a different matter because when it is not ashamed of itself (i.e. not following Karl Barth) it aims to provide an account of God as an explanatory principle of the highest order. Yes, this means that theological claims are testable by reason and evidence and not simply faith. I'm sure many believers find this unpalatable -- and that's why purely faith-based religious positions like older forms of creationism and, in its own way, theistic evolution may appear more attractive. Finally, whatever you think of my views on ID, you need to get away from the idea that ID can be a science of 'design detection' simpliciter. That's about as much of a science as butterfly collecting. A science worth taking seriously needs a research programme that aims to extend its leading explanatory principles by testing them against new bodies of evidence. This is where specifying the 'intelligence' behind the design becomes important. As virtually everyone here admits, the relevant sense of 'intelligence' is based initially on human intelligence. But why should our intelligence be taken as a guide to intelligence in things we had nothing to do with creating? Well, this is where the imago dei doctrine comes in. In fact, I can't see how you could justify using intelligence as a principle for explaining natural order otherwise. If there is some other account of 'intelligence' that makes sense in this context, and would be scientifically fruitful, please do tell. Sometimes I think ID supporters are ashamed of having to rely on God to understand the rational character of the universe. Of course, this still leaves the task of specifying exactly how God intelligently designs (especially despite the apparent local imperfections of the world). But here it's worth recalling that the very idea that there are 'laws of nature' is a consequence of people like Newton thinking that God functioned as the maker and enforcer of universally binding laws. So we are still drawing on that theistic capital even in our supposedly post-theistic times. NOTE TO JON GARVEY: Can you e-mail me? I can't find an e-mail address for you.Steve Fuller
July 21, 2012
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In some ways, I think we may be making progress because Gregory has been gracious enough to disclose some of his operating assumptions on another thread. For example, I wrote this: “Intellectually, Science is on solid metaphysical grounds because reason’s rules are unshakeable and, through them, we can also demonstrate God’s existence. It is the self-evident nature of reason’s rules that underlie modern science." Gregory responded, “It seems to me that StephenB agrees with Fuller, but calls ‘reason’s rules’ what Fuller calls ‘thinking God’s thoughts after Him.’ One would be going over a chasm to stating that “we can demonstrate God’s existence with reason’s rules.” It sounds hyper-rationalist, rather than seeking an appropriate balance between reason and faith” We really do need to analyze this point because everything turns on it. Reason’s rules consist of a number of things, none of which are religious in texture. The laws of non-contradiction, excluded middle, identity, and causality are presupposed in science, as is the assumption of an orderly universe Science is a search for causes. Without orderliness, there could be no rational causes to investigate. Without the rules of logic, we could not apprehend those rational causes. This is related to, but is not the same thing as the religious desire to “think God’s thoughts after him.” The former is a metaphysical assumption; the latter is a psychological motivation. It is important not to confuse these two dynamics. Otherwise, the entire ID enterprise will be misrepresented as a faith-based project. Gregory claims that ID isn’t really science because, the process with a religious assumption, which means of course, that it cannot also begin with an observation of data. This is similar to the charges launched by Barbara Forrest and Judge John Jones, who said, in effect, that ID is not science because it cannot extricate itself from its religious roots. It is also a charge grounded in ignorance. In fact, all science, ID included, begins with a tightly defined methodology, a means of studying phenomena and trying to make sense out of it. A theory is simply a way of explaining data--a way of answering the question, “what is going on?” To scientifically analyze patterns in nature, one must abandon all “religious” presuppositions and let the evidence speak for itself. Like Barbara Forrest before him, Gregory is trying to say that ID scientists are simply too wedded to religion to follow the evidence where it leads because their religions presuppositions have prompted them to lead the evidence. The fact remains, however, that the metaphysical presuppositions necessary to do science do not interfere with scientific methodology. On the contrary, they provide the rules by which evidence can be reasonably interpreted. Religion may motivate, religion may provide an inspiration history, and religion may edify the scientist in question, but it does not intrude itself into the methodology. To assume logic and an orderly universe is not to assume design in a DNA molecule and it certainly does not constitute assuming the existence of God. Would anyone dare to suggest that scientists who propose Big Bang Cosmology or a finely-tuned universe from data arrived at their conclusions not because he data has so spoken but rather because, as it also turns out, the Catholic Church launched the modern scientific enterprise? In fact, they wouldn’t dare. That unconscionable insult is reserved exclusively for ID science. Again, Gregory writes, “ Who says ‘modern science began with methodology,’ rather than with theory? Subsuming theory under methodology is too confusing.” This statement conflates the history of science with the methodology of science, confusing the order of sociological events with the ordered steps involved in a design inference. The answer to the question, though, should be evident: Anyone who has ever handled a beaker, worked with a spatula, looked through a telescope, conducted an experiment, isolated a variable, written a scientific report, or even drawn a graph says so—in other words, anyone who knows anything about science. Yet Again, Gregory writes: “You’re assuming “the subject of ID science,” but I am not speaking about that and mainly neither is Fuller. So, we continue to speak past each other. I do not accept as an assumption what you are trying to prove, i.e. the scientificity of ID. Yet if I ask you to define science, you will undoubtedly evade the issue. Perhaps you will join that happy throng of anti-ID partisans who say, “ID isn’t science, but I’ll be darned if I can articulate what it is that ID isn’t.” ---and again, “The issue is not that “imago Dei is a requirement for science,” but that belief in it, in the persons of those who invented it in its ‘modern/contemporary’ meaning, is inescapably part of the history of the coining of the phrase ‘intelligent design/Intelligent Design.’This is simply an obvious fact, of course. So, you can suggest that it was just a search for evidence and data in nature that led to some kind of eureka-moment – the coining of the term ID by Charles Thaxton – but that doesn’t fit with how the IDM’s story has thus far been told” Your perception of “how the ID story has been told has nothing at all to do with the question of whether ID is a legitimate scientific enterprise. When your only tool is a hammer (sociology) then every problem looks like a nail (ID science becomes a “story”). You would benefit greatly by studying science and philosophy. Indeed, you would, no doubt, be surprised to learn which and how many bad philosophers are informing your assumptions without your knowledge or consent.StephenB
July 21, 2012
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But I notice that nullasalus capitalised the concept-duo ‘Intelligent Design,’ iow, he spoke of Big-ID, rather than small-id. Why? Anyone who’s followed the conversations between Timaeus and I here at UD will know that there is a significant semantic difference between ‘Intelligent Design’ and ‘intelligent design’ and the choice of why people express it. In fact, most ‘theistic evolutionists’ and people who support ‘evolutionary creation’ accept ‘intelligent design,’ but reject ‘Intelligent Design.’ So, I’m not sure why nullasalus used Big-ID, instead of small-id and what he meant by it. Perhaps he will explain himself,
My explanation is as follows: "I don't care about or pay attention to distinctions like this." The only time I care about capitalization is when discussing God versus gods and proper names. Relatively esoteric and obscure differences don't even register for me, and the whole Biologos v BioLogos conversation was one of the silliest I can recall.
none of which he mentioned to me in preparing for this “one-shot guest post.”
Yes, I did. You neglected to mention that we went through revisions, with me giving you advice on writing up your paper, expressly because - whether I agreed with it or not - I wanted you to get the best possible hearing for yourself on this subject, at least on UD. You then gave me what you said was the final version, to be posted on UD ASAP. That seemed to me a clear indication you didn't want yet more editing advice from me, so I simply went through with the post. I'm tired and working right now. But, here's some fast comments. * You keep talking about the relevance of the social sciences to ID. This was, I believe, supposed to be the entire point of your post. However, the actual result seems to be an argument in favor of philosophy and metaphysics rather than science. You have to explain what 'social science' does that 'philosophy' does not. * Behe, for the millionth time, does not argue 'unevolvability' with regards to IC phenomena. * As near as I can tell - and I could be wrong here - your main target is the so-called neutrality myth. The problem isn't ID is pretending to be neutral when in fact it isn't, it's that everyone (in science, anyway) is pretending to be neutral when in fact they aren't. If that's the case, you would have been better served to say that directly, instead of singling out ID. The point is lost as a result, if that was a point. More later, perhaps. Back to work for now.nullasalus
July 21, 2012
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GS: Pardon, but could you address the pivotal question for us scientist types, whether there is such a thing as an empirically tested, found reliable sign that design was a causal factor. In particular, aspects of organisation/information that reflect functional specificity and -- simultaneously -- complexity beyond a threshold that renders chance contingency maximally unlikely to hit on such a configuration. I believe, whether you are inclined to say yes or no, the question is one that is capable of empirical investigation using substantially the same scientific investigatory techniques as are use3d on more or less comparable questions. (My own answer is here on.) The worldview and science in society debates are interesting, but besides the point if this is a serious question on the table. Those who accept that such an inference can be warranted scientifically, are speaking of warrant, not the ways people operate in and around a movement and whether or no they capitalise a term that has become the name for a nascent research programme. And, so far as I understand typical current theistic evolutionists who come here or hang out at places like BioLogos, they deny that empirically anchored discernability of design. On the other side, those who are interested in the inference to design issue, are not in that context interested in whether or no this conforms to any one view on the correct interpretation of Gen 1 - 11 or the equivalent. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2012
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First, a couple of technical remarks: nullasalus says he knows (because I told him) that I’ve “been talking about Intelligent Design for years.” Yes, that’s true (listening, reading, learning, etc. about ID are also suitable terms) - for almost 10 years. But I notice that nullasalus capitalised the concept-duo ‘Intelligent Design,’ iow, he spoke of Big-ID, rather than small-id. Why? Anyone who’s followed the conversations between Timaeus and I here at UD will know that there is a significant semantic difference between ‘Intelligent Design’ and ‘intelligent design’ and the choice of why people express it. In fact, most ‘theistic evolutionists’ and people who support ‘evolutionary creation’ accept ‘intelligent design,’ but reject ‘Intelligent Design.’ So, I’m not sure why nullasalus used Big-ID, instead of small-id and what he meant by it. Perhaps he will explain himself, just as he might comment on how or why he is “very skeptical of the direction of Gregory’s project for a number of reasons,” none of which he mentioned to me in preparing for this “one-shot guest post.” If I’ve only got one shot, then I guess I should give it my best to try to persuade you folks to consider an ‘alternative way to look at ID,’ indeed, to evaluate for yourselves the idea of Human Extension. My professional scholar work on this front continues aside from any connection it may or may not have with IDM-ID. So it will not discourage me if there are no ‘converts to a new paradigm' here at UD, even if the content of my writings is openly confronted and honestly contested. Also, the links did not come out properly in nullasalus' upload of my article (which, yes, Timaeus, was meant to be in the style of pop-academic writing), so now I reformat them: May 2012 TEDxLCC talk – “The Courage of Extending Humanity”: here Parallel thread on Steve Fuller’s words about ID here And Collective Judgment Forum about Intelligent Design as Social Epistemology at the Social Epistemology on-line site hereGregory
July 21, 2012
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Jon, my questiosn for you (and Gregory) persist. How does one make an inference to design from data if the affirmation of design is already present in the form of an religious assumption? Why should ID become Creation Science so that sociologists can become intellectually fulfilled social constructivists? If the second question offends, then ignore it and address the first one.StephenB
July 21, 2012
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TM: Ironically, a study of science in society would take up what seems useful in GS' work. But, that leaves the scientific issue unaddressed. Namely, is there good, empirically based epistemic warrant for inferring design in certain aspects of nature on empirically investigated signs. KFkairosfocus
July 21, 2012
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He is not offering an alliance. He is drawing a line in the sand.
If you are an IDM-ID proponent, and if you likewise consider the position I’m putting forward as valid and potentially fruitful, then you will eventually be faced with a choice between IDM-ID and the more holistic approach to science, philosophy and religion presented here. This approach claims more relevance regarding human meaning, values, beliefs, morality and ethics, as well as the term ‘intelligence’ than anything yet produced by the IDM.
tragic mishap
July 21, 2012
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Jon: You've done a good job of translating Gregory's ideas into leaner and simpler, less academic prose. And to the extent that you have captured what Gregory is driving at (which I'll leave for Gregory to decide), I have no problem with the argument you are presenting. If it's true, as you say, that non-biologists are generally cool to ID because they think of human affairs in terms of evolution (of economic systems, social systems, morality, religion, technology, etc.) rather than intentionality, then as you say, the recovery of intentionality will help clear some rubble out of people's minds and allow them to think of teleology and design in a clear way again. If that's part of what Gregory is saying, I agree with him. However, I don't always feel Gregory puts the emphasis where you are putting it. Yes, he does say that people have gone hog-wild over "evolution" and that they therefore introduce the idea in all kinds of places where it doesn't belong; but I get the impression that he thinks the ID people are just as badly confused as everyone else. Yet I don't know of any ID people who make the illegitimate extension of "evolution" from biology into human affairs; in fact, almost weekly a column appears here to ridicule the idea of evolutionary ethics, evolutionary explanations of religion, or other misuses of the idea of things "evolving." ID people are extremely conscious that human beings are intentional beings, that they plan and devise and design and choose and act, and are not merely driven by the wind of some impersonal force of "social evolution" or "technological evolution" etc. Who has stressed the fact of "human exceptionality" more than ID people? By contrast, over on BioLogos, we see a series currently running where an "expert" on the "image of God" is trying to convince everyone that humans aren't in crucial respects all that different from beavers, dogs, bees, dolphins, chimpanzees, etc.; this analysis greatly diminishes the range of human exceptionality. (He leaves the only serious aspect of human exceptionality to be our ability to relate to God. Out goes homo faber, homo sapiens, homo ludens, etc.) So ID people rank second to none in arguing that human beings are intentional beings and that human products -- whether technologies or social arrangements or political systems or economic systems -- are "extensions" (though they don't use that term) of the human mind and the human will. This being the case, I don't understand why Gregory so often seems to be so hard on the ID people. Their starting point is the same as his -- human exceptionality, human intentionality, and the ability of human beings to "extend" themselves in various ways. Their idea of "design" comes out of that matrix of characterizations. ID people of course have a different interest from that of Gregory; indeed, he frankly admits above that questions of biology are not central to his thinking. But for ID people the parallel between biological systems and human-designed systems is so striking that it has to be a central concern of thoughtful people who are meditating upon human origins. It is not that biological systems and human-designed systems have to be treated as identical in every way; rather, it is that they are alike in *enough* ways to make the possibility of a design inference worthy of serious investigation. Hence, Behe, Dembski, Meyer, Axe, Gauger, Minnich, Sternberg, etc. Yet I have never detected in Gregory's writing any sympathy for this line of investigation. If Gregory's general line of commentary were something like this: "ID people are to be congratulated for realizing the centrality of intentionality, design, and non-evolutionary modes of creation in human life, and I wish them well in their effort to extend these notions to account for biological origins, refuting chance-based theories; however, I think they could deepen their account, and strengthen their argument against the neo-Darwinian chance-worshipers, by developing a fuller account of how design is an extension of personal freedom and intelligence of man" -- I would have no problem with Gregory's contributions. But nothing like this comes across. One gets the strong impression at times that Gregory thinks that ID people are simply wasting their time by opposing Darwinian biology, and would be better off studying the social sciences instead. If he doesn't mean that, it's certainly what he frequently conveys, and this accounts for the rather cold reception he gets from certain ID supporters here. This is why it would help if, when Gregory is asked direct questions about chance and design in nature, he would answer them, instead of shifting the question to something else. For example, does Gregory think that Behe is right against Dawkins in saying that random mutation plus natural selection cannot account for the integrated complexity we see in living things? It sounds as if he has no strong view on that, and almost as if he doesn't even care. But not caring about such a monumental question -- whether living things, including human beings, are cosmic accidents -- strikes the philosophers and theologians among the ID people (and there are many such), not to mention the plain old rank and file religious people, as incomprehensible. Similarly, cavils that "Darwinism" and "neo-Darwinism" are ideologies rather than scientific theories are not helpful, as the evolutionary biologists themselves (as is easily documentable from the classic treatments of evolutionary biology) have long used these terms to denote a scientific theory rather than an ideology, and ID people are simply following their usage. To chide the ID people for confusing science with ideology, when in fact the ID people know the difference, but are merely following the usage of the people they are debating with, for the sake of speaking a common language, makes it look as if Gregory regards ID people as so philosophically simpleminded as to be bewitched by misleading terms, and this, too, rubs ID people the wrong way. In other words, if Gregory is really serious about the apparent alliance that he is offering ID people, he is going to have to change a couple of things in his approach: first, he is going to have to sound more enthusiastic for what ID people have to say about biological origins; second, he is going to have to sound less schoolmasterish and pedantic in the way he talks to ID people. Whether Gregory can manage these changes I do not know. But if he could, he would find a much more receptive audience here and elsewhere in the ID world.Timaeus
July 21, 2012
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One point in favour of Gregory's idea (which I've been mulling over for over a year now and seeing its strengths). Human extension as a way of looking at human designs and institutions is a way of displacing the default to "evolution with everything". This year's Reith lectures were on "evolutionary economics", which is tosh - economics has to do with deliberately designed systems and their foreseen or unforeseen consequences. But nobody pointed that out, since evolution is a universal assumption. But if "extension" took off in the human sciences, people would have an alternative model for progress in design and teleology. To an increasing chunk of the population, nature might well be seen to look more like "superhuman extension" than merely "evolution". The design inference would gain traction. The human sciences would be harnessed into studying the nature of design rather than diverted, as now, into creating evolutionary just-so stories in psychology, language, history etc etc. Design would be on the broad scientific agenda in a new way. After all, ID has always been a matter of "hearts and minds". Design can never be proven, but merely demonstrated to be the only alternative to ridiculously low probabilities. It is partly because evolution seems (sociologically) so plausible everywhere that non-biologists have been generally cool to ID. If human technology evolves, why shouldn't life? But if technology (and the rest of human enterprise) is recovered for intentionality, teleology becomes a truly global rival to evolution.Jon Garvey
July 20, 2012
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