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David Hart addresses the Mysteries of Consciousness over at FT.

rockyr, quantum entanglement and teleportation are not Star Trek fantasies, They have been physically demonstrated hundreds, if not thousands, of times for elementary photons and particles. bornagain77
bornagain77, Thanks for all the links, and a good discussion. This is indeed a lot to chew on. I try to be a common sense person, and although I used to watch and enjoy Startrek and other such fantasy, all these new concepts sound like sci-fi to me, even if some scientists like Hawking believe in time travel, or if other scientists believe in the actual teleportation. I will read and try to learn more about this, but for now I think all such hopes are premature. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, but until the pudding is actually dematerialized, rematerialized and eaten, I will remain sceptical. Besides, my common sense tells me that if science could actually achieve such a thing, it would go again the consistency and design of the universe and nature as God intended it for us to know. rockyr
@bornagain I like the way you think! :) above
above, your critique of the video is spot on. I felt somewhat cheated for he would hit a few interesting points then make inferences far beyond his basis, failing to see he was over extrapolating. As well that whole eastern philosophy thing really sent up red flags. ,,, The only way I can make peace with the whole 'primacy of consciousness' line, is to say something along the effect that God's infinite mind is the primary reality whereas all other realities created by God are not 'illusions', as many physicists and philosophers are prone to say, but these 'illusions' in fact secondary realities which spring from the primary reality of God, which though these secondary realities may not be the primary reality, they are none the less 'real' and may not be carelessly tossed out as 'illusions' with no reality at all. bornagain77
I have recently run across this video about the primacy of consciousness: http://documentaryheaven.com/the-primacy-of-consciousness/ It’s an interesting account that turns the cliché idea of materialism on its head. There are many insightful ideas the presenter provides but he has the tendency to go more towards a worldview reminiscent of the traditional Eastern traditions (e.g. Buddhism). Although insightful and interesting for the most part, the video had a very similar effect on me as do many materialist videos/literature do. I think reducing reality to nothing but consciousness is just as problematic as reducing everything to bits of matter. They both seem rather nihilistic to me. Anyways, I would like to hear other people’s opinion on the video. above
@bornagain -“The point is, Steven Pinker notwithstanding, the human mind remains as unexplained by Darwinian principles as when Wallace raised these issues.” I don’t want to be mean but since when are the opinions of charlatans like pinker relevant? :P above
final notes rockyr: "An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality" Akiane - Child Prodigy - Artwork homepage - http://www.artakiane.com/ - Music video - http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4204586 Logic also dictates 'a decision' must have been made, by the 'transcendent, eternal, infinite information' from the primary timeless (eternal) reality 'It' inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the findings of quantum mechanics. The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914 As a side light to this, leading quantum physicist Anton Zeilinger has followed in John Archibald Wheeler's footsteps (1911-2008) by insisting reality, at its most foundational level, is 'information'. "It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom - at a very deep bottom, in most instances - an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that things physical are information-theoretic in origin." John Archibald Wheeler Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation: http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/ArticleDetail/tabid/68/id/8638/Default.aspx The restriction imposed by our physical limitations of us ever accessing complete infinite information to our temporal space-time framework/dimension (Wheeler; Zeilinger) does not detract, in any way, from the primacy and dominion of the infinite transcendent information framework that is now established by the quantum teleportation experiment as the primary reality of our reality. Of note: All of this evidence meshes extremely well with the theistic postulation of God possessing infinite and perfect knowledge. This seems like a fitting place for this following quote and verse: "To see the world in a grain of sand, and to see heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hands, and eternity in an hour." William Blake Psalm 19:1-2 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. bornagain77
further notes rockyr: Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts This following paper is fairly good for establishing the primacy of transcendent information in the 'reality' of this universe: What is Truth? http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dc8z67wz_3g3vnsmcn It is also interesting to note that a Compact Disc crammed with information on it weighs exactly the same as a CD with no information on it whatsoever.,, Here are a few videos reflecting on some of the characteristics of transcendent information: Information – Elusive but Tangible – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WytNkw1xOIc Information? What Is It Really? Professor Andy McIntosh - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4739025 But to reflect just a bit more on the teleportation experiment itself, is interesting to note that scientists can only 'destroy' a photon in these quantum teleportation experiments. No one has 'created' a photon as of yet. I firmly believe man shall never do as such, since I hold only God is infinite, and perfect, in information/knowledge. Job 38:19-20 “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?" Further reflection on the quantum teleportation experiment: That a photon would actually be destroyed upon the teleportation (separation) of its 'infinite' information to another photon is a direct controlled violation of the first law of thermodynamics. (i.e. a photon 'disappeared' from the 'material' universe when the entire information content of a photon was 'transcendently displaced' from the material universe by the experiment, when photon “c” transcendently became transmitted photon “a”). Thus, Quantum teleportation is direct empirical validation for the primary tenet of the Law of Conservation of Information (i.e. 'transcendent' information cannot be created or destroyed). This conclusion is warranted because information exercises direct dominion of energy, telling energy exactly what to be and do in the experiment. Thus, this experiment provides a direct line of logic that transcendent information cannot be created or destroyed and, in information demonstrating transcendence, and dominion, of space-time and matter-energy, becomes the only known entity that can satisfactorily explain where all energy came from as far as the origination of the universe is concerned. That is transcendent information is the only known entity which can explain where all the energy came from in the Big Bang without leaving the bounds of empirical science as the postulated multiverse does. Clearly anything that exercises dominion of the fundamental entity of this physical universe, a photon of energy, as transcendent information does in teleportation, must of necessity possess the same, as well as greater, qualities as energy does possess in the first law of thermodynamics (i.e. Energy cannot be created or destroyed by any known material means according to the first law). To reiterate, since information exercises dominion of energy in quantum teleportation then all information that can exist, for all past, present and future events of energy, already must exist. As well, the fact that quantum teleportation shows an exact 'location dominion', of a photon of energy by 'specified infinite information', satisfies a major requirement for the entity needed to explain the missing Dark Matter. The needed transcendent explanation would have to dominate energy in a very similar 'specified location' fashion, as is demonstrated by the infinite information of quantum teleportation, to satisfy what is needed to explain the missing dark matter. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Moreover, the fact that simple quantum entanglement shows 'coordinated universal control' of entangled photons of energy, by transcendent information, regardless of distance, satisfies a major requirement for the entity which must explain the missing Dark Energy. i.e. The transcendent entity, needed to explain Dark Energy, must explain why the entire space of the universe is expanding in such a finely-tuned, coordinated, degree, and would have to employ a mechanism of control very similar to what we witness in the quantum entanglement experiment. Job 9:8 He stretches out the heavens by Himself and walks on the waves of the sea. Thus 'infinite transcendent information' provides a coherent picture of overarching universal control, and specificity, that could possibly unify gravity with the other forces. It very well may be possible to elucidate, mathematically, the overall pattern God has chosen to implement infinite information in this universe. The following article backs up this assertion: Is Unknown Force In Universe Acting On Dark Matter? Excerpt: It is possible that a non-gravitational fifth force is ruling the dark matter with an invisible hand, leaving the same fingerprints on all galaxies, irrespective of their ages, shapes and sizes." ,,Such a force might solve an even bigger mystery, known as 'dark energy', which is ruling the accelerated expansion of the Universe. A more radical solution is a revision of the laws of gravity first developed by Isaac Newton in 1687 and refined by Albert Einstein's theory of General Relativity in 1916. Einstein never fully decided whether his equation should add an omnipresent constant source, now called dark energy. ,,Dr Famaey added, "If we account for our observations with a modified law of gravity, it makes perfect sense to replace the effective action of hypothetical dark matter with a force closely related to the distribution of visible matter." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091022154644.htm "I discovered that nature was constructed in a wonderful way, and our task is to find out its mathematical structure" Albert Einstein Reflections on the 'infinite transcendent information' framework: The weight of mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. As well, mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light, whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight. Special Relativity - Time Dilation and Length Contraction - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY For us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, only gets us to first base as far as quantum entanglement, or teleportation, are concerned. That is to say, traveling at the speed of light only gets us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, 'past and future folding into now', framework of time. This higher dimension 'eternal' inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not 'frozen within time' yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. "I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/best-brainac/article37176-2.html "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." – Richard Swenson Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 Also, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, but, and this is a big but; this 'timeless' travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. In information teleportation though the 'time not passing', eternal, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but also in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus 'pure transcendent information' is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which 'It' resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned). bornagain77
further notes rockyr: As well this following paper offers a solid rebuttal to Duwell's objection to Bennett of teleporting information 'backwards in time' simply because he believes there is no path, or mechanism, to do so: Time travel theory avoids grandfather paradox - July 2010 Excerpt: “In the new paper, the scientists explore a particular version of CTCs based on combining quantum teleportation with post-selection, resulting in a theory of post-selected CTCs (P-CTCs). ,,,The formalism of P-CTCs shows that such quantum time travel can be thought of as a kind of quantum tunneling backwards in time, which can take place even in the absence of a classical path from future to past,,, “P-CTCs might also allow time travel in spacetimes without general-relativistic closed timelike curves,” they conclude. “If nature somehow provides the nonlinear dynamics afforded by final-state projection, then it is possible for particles (and, in principle, people) to tunnel from the future to the past.” http://www.physorg.com/news198948917.html The following excerpt is also of interest to this issue of time constraints in quantum mechanics: Solving the quantum mysteries - John Gribbin Excerpt: But a giant leap in what might be called quantum philosophy has recently been taken by the American physicist John Cramer. He has taken a new look at the wave equations of quantum mechanics -- the famous Schrdinger equation, and the equations describing the probability waves, which travel, like photons, at the speed of light. What Cramer has pointed out is that the equations actually have two sets of solutions, one equivalent to a positive wave flowing into the future (a "retarded" wave), and the other describing a negative wave flowing into the past (an "advanced" wave). As all physicists learn at university (and most promptly forget) the full version of the wave equation has two sets of solutions -- one corresponding to the familiar simple Schrdinger equation, and the other to a kind of mirror image Schrdinger equation describing the flow of negative energy into the past. http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/quantum.htm#Solving As well, I also have another reason to object to Duwell's complaint of 'no mechanism' for information travel to the past, in that I firmly believe Biblical prophecy has actually been precisely fulfilled by Israel's 'miraculous' rebirth as a nation in 1948, as this following video makes clear: The Precisely Fulfilled Prophecy Of Israel Becoming A Nation In 1948 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041241 This following video shows one reason why I personally know there is much more going on in the world than what the materialistic philosophy would lead us to believe: Miracle Testimony - One Easter Sunday Sunrise Service - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995314 More supporting evidence for the transcendent nature of information, and how it interacts with energy, is found in these following studies: Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 Ultra-Dense Optical Storage - on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image's worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html This following experiment clearly shows information is not an 'emergent property' of any solid material basis as is dogmatically asserted by some materialists: Converting Quantum Bits: Physicists Transfer Information Between Matter and Light Excerpt: A team of physicists at the Georgia Institute of Technology has taken a significant step toward the development of quantum communications systems by successfully transferring quantum information from two different groups of atoms onto a single photon. http://gtresearchnews.gatech.edu/newsrelease/quantumtrans.htm The following articles show that even atoms (Ions) are subject to teleportation: Of note: An ion is an atom or molecule in which the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge. Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp bornagain77
rockyr, well said and thought out. I disagree on one point though, I think physics is a lot clearer than what the often obscure language implies. Basically, with the refutation of the hidden variable argument of materialists, 'transcendent information' is shown to be its own unique entity. Moreover, in quantum teleportation, it is shown to be its own unique entity which exercises dominion of matter and energy dominion. Needless to say this is very conducive to Theistic thought whereas, using the war analogy, I believe many atheistic would rather die by flame throwers in their bunkers than admit this obvious truth. Here are a few notes I have on the 'transcendent information' framework: As well, 'pure transcendent information' is now shown to be 'conserved'. (i.e. it is shown that all transcendent information which can possibly exist, for all possible physical/material events, past, present, and future, already must exist.) This is since transcendent information exercises direct dominion of the foundational 'material' entity of this universe, energy, which cannot be created or destroyed by any known 'material' means. i.e. First Law of Thermodynamics. Conservation Of Transcendent Information - 2007 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995275 These following studies verified the violation of the first law of thermodynamics that I had suspected in the preceding video: How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. --- As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ Unconditional Quantum Teleportation - abstract Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,, http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/282/5389/706 Of note: conclusive evidence for the violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics is firmly found in the preceding experiment when coupled with the complete displacement of the infinite transcendent information of "Photon c": http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMzBmcjR0eG1neg In extension to the 2007 video, the following video and article shows quantum teleportation breakthroughs have actually shed a little light on exactly what, or more precisely on exactly Whom, has created this universe: Scientific Evidence For God (Logos) Creating The Universe - 2008 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995300 It is also very interesting to note in this following paper that the quantum state of a photon is actually defined as 'infinite information': Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf It should be noted in the preceding paper that Duwell, though he never challenges the mathematical definition of a photon qubit as infinite information, tries to refute Bennett's interpretation of infinite information transfer in teleportation because of what he believes are 'time constraints' which would prohibit teleporting 'backwards in time'. Yet Duwell fails to realize that information is its own completely unique transcendent entity, completely separate from any energy-matter, space-time, constraints in the first place. A few more details on Duwell's flawed 'materialistic' reasoning in trying to refute Bennett's interpretation of the teleportation of infinite information are here: https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/proteins-fold-as-darwin-crumbles/comment-page-7/#comment-359265 bornagain77
bornaagain77, Perhaps the war analogy isn't the most accurate in the strictly scientific sphere, where the professional scientists and philosophers debate and argue, but it does seem to apply when it is transferred into the general society where one's personal life, family, society, etc., are deeply affected, and where tempers flare when real or perceived danger or injustice are felt. Although, when scientists debate between themselves, their big egos often clash and debates turn into antagonism. For example Newton's hatred of Leibniz. Also your link to the Einstein-Bohr debate isn't all that accurate, I think Bohr eventually became quite bitter and reserved towards Einstein, since their two views clashed. I agree with you that modern science in all spheres confirms rather then denies God's existence and His design in nature. This trend has been true for at least the last 100 years, and the modern discoveries in physics, mathematics, biology and elsewhere all seem to converge on that point. You may think or hope that the war between the two camps is over, I am more sceptical, and the current bitter antagonism between the New Atheists like Dawkins et. al. against the Intelligent Design and religion in general only proves my point. Really, for the deep antagonism to go away it would be necessary that the atheists convert or at least admit their limitations and inconsistency, which they will not do for the fear of compromising their position. (I have argued with some such people for a few decades now, and the end of these debates has been bitter resentment, even insults, without admitting even partial defeat by the atheists.) I am not sure whom you consider the "quasi-theists", perhaps the confused scientists, or hypocrites, who say they believe in God, but proceed to live and do as atheists and materialist do. I have seen quite a few categorizations along the theist-atheist line, some with tens or more categories, and then it gets confusing. Thus I don't know if the war analogy applies or should apply there. Being interested in physics, I have followed the quantum physics and the Einstein-Bohr debate the best I could, through de Broglie's theory and the Guided Wave Theory of David Bohm, Bell's experiments, but as exciting as these latest developments in quantum physics are or are made to be, such physics gets quite esoteric, with all sorts of confusing implications. So I don't think that trying to reconcile Scriptural Christianity and modern physics may be the best way to proceed until all that new knowledge is digested and properly understood even by non-specialists. Besides, it would take the highest authorities of both the Church/Religion and Science, if such a unanimous scientific consensus can be achieved, to make such an attempt credible. rockyr
rockyr then again I may be trying to force things into preconceived patterns too much with this war analogy, for I was forced to defend this video,,, General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 ,,, against a fellow Christian this morning, who said this against the video:
Post Modernism and rationalism at its best! hmmmmm...worst!..nodding up and up with shrug of shoulders!lol... Jesus is the only answer for the 'whys, hows and is" of life!The tomb indeed signifies and "unbelievable beginning" BUT Jesus needed no assistance from the universe in His resurrection for then He would no longer be God! Who would worship a God like themselves--vulnerable and in need of assistance!
rockyr, in response to her I said: Beverleyann G***** while I agree with you that God indeed needed no help from the universe in the resurrection event of Christ, I am none-the-less very happy to see that what is considered the number one problem of physics today of a 'unification into a theory of everything' for what is in essence the finite world of General Relativity and the infinite world of Quantum Mechanics, which Physicists and Mathematicians are having such extremely difficult time 'unifying' into a theory of everything, does in fact seem to find a successful resolution for 'unification' within the resurrection event of Jesus Christ Himself. It seems almost overwhelmingly apparent to me from the 'scientific evidence' we now have that Christ literally ripped a hole in the finite entropic space-time of this universe to reunite infinite God with finite man. That modern science would even offer such a tangible glimpse into the mechanics of what happened in the tomb of Christ should be a source of great wonder and comfort for the Christian heart. Though to be sure the video is not saying with 100% definiteness whether God specifically acted of His own free will at that specific time of the resurrection, or whether it was a cumulative act of His free will spread over all time, and all eternity, from the foundation of the universe. Yet none-the-less, there seems to be strong indication of it being a cumulative act of His free will spread over all time. The reason this seems to be the case is because it seems entirely plausible a 'critical mass', for lack of a better term, was reached over and against the entropic space-time of this universe when the body of Christ, which knew not even one sin in His entire earthly life and indeed bore all of our sins, refused to decay as the entire entropic space-time, of the entire universe, weighed in on the crucified body of Christ and tried with all its might to force the body of Christ to decay. Yet with entropic space-time failing to do this, as the space of the entire universe was expanding with the passing of time into the future, since it was not possible for the body of Christ to decay, it is entirely plausible that a 'critical mass' for a 'singularity' was reached over and against the space time of this universe in which the infinite world of God once again reunited with the finite world of man. Thus rockyr, I guess in some ways fundamental truths may never really be too far from us despite what I had said in the previous post. bornagain77
rockyr, That sure is quite a lot to chew on, yet to digress a bit, I've always found the 'war' between atheistic materialists and Christian Theists to be the most able to draw out the truth and knowledge for how reality is actually constructed, with materialists consistently ending up with the short end of the stick, despite their vehement protestations to the contrary. Whereas, I find the war between what I firmly term 'quasi-theists', who think they are able to, through their own efforts, 'earn their way to heaven', and Christian Theists, who acknowledge the need for God to make a way for us to be accepted into heaven, to be much more mundane and to be prone to continually stick on finer details. That 'war', between 'quasi-theists' and Christian Theists, never seems able to reveal the knowledge for how reality is actually constructed, for both parties, the true Theists and the quasi-Theists, already acknowledge the reality of God and 'the war' ends up being a game of semantics, arguing over what man's response to the reality of God should be. But as far the 'war' between materialists and Theists in general currently stands that war is over as far as the accumulated knowledge of man is concerned, though materialists will, of course, deny that the 'war' is over. notes: The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 This following study adds to Alain Aspect's work in Quantum Mechanics and solidly refutes the 'hidden variable' argument that has been used by materialists to try to get around the Theistic implications of the instantaneous 'spooky action at a distance' found in quantum mechanics. Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show - July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm (of note: hidden variables were postulated to remove the need for 'spooky' forces, as Einstein termed them — forces that act instantaneously at great distances, thereby breaking the most cherished rule of relativity theory, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.) Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world. http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2904125/k.E94E/Why_Quantum_Theory_Does_Not_Support_Materialism.htm Many more notes on the failure of materialism here: Intelligent Design - The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.html bornagain77
bornagain77, Thanks for a stimulating discussion. For the briefness' sake I was simplifying when I used the words "smart and knowledgeable" to describe a potential candidate for a new discovery. Although, one could further argue, as you have, that this term and the discussion could be expanded, and it certainly can. You are correct about the importance of the spiritual and even Christian aspect in new scientific discoveries. I am familiar with works of Stanley Jaki who was quite fond of Pierre Duhem's thesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Duhem Still, you cannot deny that there were materialist scientists in history, since the ancient East Indian materialists (Jains, Cervaka), Greek Ionians, Leucippus and many others in history, Democritus being a perfect model a such a scientist who influenced many modern materialists, and that these scientists were important and instrumental in the development of science. Even Aristotle in his criticism praised Democritus and atomism as being highly consistent, intellectually way above all the rest of the natural scientists who tended to muddle the issues. I take it you are familiar with father Jaki's works, and even Bumbulis (in the link you have provided) admits that — "2. I am not claiming that Christianity was sufficient for the birth of science. ..." Then, there are, of course, secondary aspects of all the other influences, like the Egyptian, Persian, Chines or Islamic science, which was quite influential in the development of Christian science and philosophy. But the main question here is how does one reconcile these two clearly contrary notions of creation/religion/spirituality on one hand, and atheism/scepticism/atomism/determinism/ darwinism, etc., on the other. There were attempts made, for example by Pierre Gassendi, (whom even the pope John Paul II mentioned a few times, so he must have been interested in this very issue.) Gassendi tried to integrate the Epicurean method, and some claim that he was thus instrumental in the birth of the modern scientific method. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Gassendi Elaborating further along these lines would take some effort, and, from what I know so far, I am not sure Gassendi was fully successful. But to address the main question — I don't really think those two opposite notions can be successfully reconciled, there will always be a tension between them, creating the necessary dynamism that will, hopefully, with God's grace and providence, further advance science. The role of a Christian and any honest believer in God in this "war" is to stand up and fight, the best we can, and bring about good and moral discoveries, give science a direction, and tame and convert the potentially dangerous or evil discoveries, if one may put it that way. This contrary notion, of a duel between the two, is nicely described in Chesterton's The Ball and the Cross, whether it is a dialogue of the old monk Michael with Professor Lucifer in his flying ship, or the never ending "duel to the death" between the two protagonists of the novel, a believer and an atheist. There are all sorts of interesting angles, allegories and symbolism in the novel. (Such as when the believer saved the atheist from drowning.) I strongly disagree with Martin Gardner's criticism that in portraying modern evolutionary science as Professor Lucifer, Chesterton "unfortunately knew nothing" about modern science. (See Gardner's introduction to the 1995 Dover edition.) I watch Glenn Beck where David Barton is a frequent guest, and I have learned many interesting things about American history that I didn't know. Barton is an excellent historian and a brilliant presenter. Jung, and his family's history, is another interesting story, although we will probably never know for sure what kind of God he believed in. Jung's family claimed a connection to Goethe, who was instrumental in the popularization of evolution. And I was somewhat surprised when Jaroslav Pelikan admitted, (I think it was in his Faust the Theologian, 1995), that he greatly admired Goethe's Faust, and that daily meditated on a verse or two from Faust. http://www.angelfire.com/nm2/aona/jung.html Yes, bornagain77, there is indeed more to seeing than we can wee with our eyes... rockyr
rockyr, Though it is hard to put into 'scientific rigor', I hold that there is more to 'coincidental discoveries' than just two, or more, smart people working on the same problem in different places. But one fact that argues strongly for the 'something more' position is that this is not just some small anomaly of coincidences, for breakthroughs as would be 'naturally' expected, as is noted here: List of multiple discoveries Excerpt: Historians and sociologists have remarked on the occurrence, in science, of "multiple independent discovery". Robert K. Merton defined such "multiples" as instances in which similar discoveries are made by scientists working independently of each other.,,, Multiple independent discovery, however, is not limited to only a few historic instances involving giants of scientific research. Merton believed that it is multiple discoveries, rather than unique ones, that represent the common pattern in science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multiple_discoveries In fact rockyr I hold that there is more to being able to gather knowledge in the first place than just being 'smart'. A ability to 'discover' that is in fact based on a 'spiritual' perspective that is somewhat completely divorced from how 'smart' any 'scientist', or any particular person may be as the following video makes crystal clear: The Real Reason American Education Has Slipped - David Barton - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4318930 Though these following references may ruffle a few feathers, I've always found it very interesting that a devout Christian was at the base of each branch of modern science; Christianity and The Birth of Science - Michael Bumbulis, Ph.D Excerpt: Of course, the cynics would claim these men were not *really* Christians. That is, they really didn't *believe* in Christianity, but they professed such beliefs because they did not want to be persecuted. This is the "closet-atheist" hypothesis. But it doesn't square with the facts. http://ldolphin.org/bumbulis/ http://www.tektonics.org Christianity Gave Birth To Each Scientific Discipline - Dr. Henry Fritz Schaefer - video http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=8b121425f7e044148a1b This is also interesting: Einstein and The Belgian Priest, George Lemaitre - The "Father" Of The Big Bang Theory - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4279662 I noticed you mentioned Jung a couple of times, I have a video clip of him at the beginning of this music video: When You Know - Inspirational Song http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4209342 Slightly beside the point rockyr, but frankly I really and truly believe there is much, much, spiritually more to each and everything we experience than what atheistic materialist constantly try to tell us that there isn't anything 'spiritually' more to. Here is a poem that reflects sentiment: There Is More - Inspirational Poem http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102086 bornagain77
bornagain77, Perhaps you have misunderstood me about "The Probability of God" article. I was trying to point out how ridiculous such an approach is. There is only one mathematically rigorous probability, and that is the frequentist approach. What Unwin presents is simply guessing based on individual belief, opinion, knowledge, etc., and therefore it is not surprising that Unwin's number is 67% while Joe Carter "calculated" 99% or higher. I suppose an atheist would calculate something much closer to 50%, meaning really nothing, or even zero if he were really biased and unfair. I wouldn't call it numerology, but it is close, and I am surprised how many people fall for this stuff as being solid mathematics or scientific proofs. Coincidences can be startling, and that is what Carl Jung based his whole theory upon when he coined the term synchronicity, although one ought to be very careful about what is a startling and "miraculous" coincidence, and what isn't really. Coincidental discoveries aren't really all that surprising, since it is quite likely that more than one smart person in any given cultural and knowledge milieu can come up with the same discovery. I think it is much more startling when several or more independent events coincide towards the unforeseen goal or outcome. I don't find it startling that both Wallace and Darwin would discover the natural selection independently, but I would find it much more surprising if both were indeed discovered based not on their clear conscious thinking and reasoning, but rather in their subconscius or unconscious mind, perhaps affected by some mysterious unknown influences. I don't find it startling that both Newton and Leibniz found the same mathematical method at about the same time — it is quite likely that the time was ripe for some smart and well-educated person to come up with this idea. Also, some precursory ideas apparently existed as far back as in the ancient Egypt, Persia and Greece. Besides, each presented the idea in a different way— Newton's fluxions (differential calculus), versus Lebniz' unified approach to both differential and integral calculus, Newton's notation being more idiosyncratic, while Lebniz' nicely and formally worked out calculus is what is used today. rockyr
Digging a little deeper on my hunch of the Leibniz, Newton 'coincidence' being more than a mere coincidence, I found that 'coincidental discoveries' are far more prevalent than what should be expected from a materialistic perspective, I found this nugget: In the Air - Who says big ideas are rare? by Malcolm Gladwell Excerpt: This phenomenon of simultaneous discovery—what science historians call “multiples”—turns out to be extremely common. One of the first comprehensive lists of multiples was put together by William Ogburn and Dorothy Thomas, in 1922, and they found a hundred and forty-eight major scientific discoveries that fit the multiple pattern. Newton and Leibniz both discovered calculus. Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace both discovered evolution. Three mathematicians “invented” decimal fractions. Oxygen was discovered by Joseph Priestley, in Wiltshire, in 1774, and by Carl Wilhelm Scheele, in Uppsala, a year earlier. Color photography was invented at the same time by Charles Cros and by Louis Ducos du Hauron, in France. Logarithms were invented by John Napier and Henry Briggs in Britain, and by Joost Bürgi in Switzerland. “There were four independent discoveries of sunspots, all in 1611; namely, by Galileo in Italy, Scheiner in Germany, Fabricius in Holland and Harriott in England,” Ogburn and Thomas note, and they continue: The law of the conservation of energy, so significant in science and philosophy, was formulated four times independently in 1847, by Joule, Thomson, Colding and Helmholz. They had been anticipated by Robert Mayer in 1842. There seem to have been at least six different inventors of the thermometer and no less than nine claimants of the invention of the telescope. Typewriting machines were invented simultaneously in England and in America by several individuals in these countries. The steamboat is claimed as the “exclusive” discovery of Fulton, Jouffroy, Rumsey, Stevens and Symmington. For Ogburn and Thomas, the sheer number of multiples could mean only one thing: scientific discoveries must, in some sense, be inevitable. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/12/080512fa_fact_gladwell/?currentPage=all bornagain77
Of related interest: 15 Strangest Coincidences In World History Excerpt: Hernán Cortés' arrival in Mexico in 1519 coincided with the year in the Mayan Calendar when it was predicted that the pale-faced man-god Quetzalcoatl would return to reclaim the city of Tenochtitlán. The Aztecs therefore assumed Cortés to be the legendary man-god, which assisted him in capturing the city and thence Mexico. The British actor Anthony Hopkins [who shot to fame as Hannibal Lecter] was delighted to hear that he had landed a leading role in a film based on the book The Girl From Petrovka by George Feifer. A few days after signing the contract, Hopkins travelled to London to buy a copy of the book. He tried several bookshops, but there wasn't one to be had. Waiting at Leicester Square underground for his train home, he noticed a book apparently discarded on a bench. Incredibly, it was The Girl From Petrovka. That in itself would have been coincidence enough but in fact it was merely the beginning of an extraordinary chain of events. Two years later, in the middle of filming in Vienna, Hopkins was visited by George Feifer, the author. Feifer mentioned that he did not have a copy of his own book. He had lent the last one - containing his own annotations - to a friend who had lost it somewhere in London. With mounting astonishment, Hopkins handed Feifer the book he had found. 'Is this the one?' he asked, 'with the notes scribbled in the margins?' It was the same book. http://www.dailycognition.com/index.php/2007/04/12/15-strangest-coincidences-in-world-history.html Here is the google page for strange coincidences in history: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=strange+coincidences+in+history&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= A coincidence I've always found fascinating, but not yet followed up on, was the simultaneous discovery of calculus by Leibniz and Newton. bornagain77
rockyr, thanks for the article,,, but I have a totally different way at looking at Good and Evil than to assign them mere probabilities. The way I look at it is that I hold that good is a tangible entity that does indeed exist, and it is most certainly not an illusion as atheists are forced to say if cornered, and since good does indeed exist, then I hold there must be, of 100% necessity, a ultimate source where good comes from. This ultimate source is of course God. Whereas also I hold that evil is real, and of 100% necessity there likewise must be an ultimate source for that evil (rebellion against good). But more importantly, as the following video points out, it is impossible to judge whether something is evil or not unless there truly is an ultimate source of good to judge by. Thus whether one concedes whether Good or Evil really exist they are forced to concede the necessity for God. That is why most atheists when presented with this evidence deny the existence of good or evil. Does God Exist? - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4007708 bornagain77
bornagain77, Thanks, interesting article and historical overview by Goldman, although the meaning of Gödel's proofs has been known for quite some time. Still it doesn't harm to bring this into public's attention, even if many or most people may not fully appreciate such ramifications. (This surprising confusion and even ridiculous ignorance about the rigorous use of mathematics by many people can be seen in another recent First Things article by Joe Carter, http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/18/the-probability-of-god/ ) If the information presented by Goldman can be trusted (I would like to see more tangible evidence and references rather then hearsay), I would be somewhat surprised that Gödel did actually believe in some kind of personal God, because most of what is known about him directly, by his own words and works, shows him as a Platonist and an evolutionist. Or perhaps I should say that I am not surprised that Gödel, being a great logician, finally ended up believing in God secretly. rockyr
Digging through the FT site Barry linked, I found this article that may be very interesting to some: THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html bornagain77
cont. consciousness: A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,Nobel prize winner W. Penfield could sometimes induce flashes of recollection of the past (never a complete life review), experiences of light, sound or music, and rarely a kind of out-of-body experience. These experiences did not produce any transformation. After many years of research he finally reached the conclusion that it is not possible to localize memories (information) inside the brain. http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter - Random Number Generators - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007 Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. As well it should be noted that, counter-intuitive to materialistic thought (and to every kid who has ever taken a math exam), a computer does not consume energy during computation but will only consume energy when information is erased from it. This counter-intuitive fact is formally known as Landauer's Principle. i.e. Erasing information is a thermodynamically irreversible process that increases the entropy of a system. i.e Only irreversible operations consume energy. Reversible computation does not use up energy. Unfortunately the computer will eventually run out of information storage space and must begin to 'irreversibly' erase the information it has previously gathered (Bennett: 1982) and thus a computer must eventually use energy. i.e. A 'material' computer must eventually obey the second law of thermodynamics for its computation. "Those devices can yield only approximations to a structure (of information) that has a deep and "computer independent" existence of its own." - Roger Penrose - The Emperor's New Mind - Pg 147 Landauer's principle Of Note: "any logically irreversible manipulation of information, such as the erasure of a bit or the merging of two computation paths, must be accompanied by a corresponding entropy increase ,,, Specifically, each bit of lost information will lead to the release of an (specific) amount (at least kT ln 2) of heat.,,, Landauer’s Principle has also been used as the foundation for a new theory of dark energy, proposed by Gough (2008). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle "Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day." Norbert Weiner - MIT Mathematician - Father of Cybernetics This ability of a computer to 'compute answers' without ever hypothetically consuming energy, until information is erased, is very suggestive that the answers/truth already exist in reality, and in fact, when taken to its logical conclusion, is very suggestive to the postulation of John 1:1 that 'Logos' is ultimately the foundation of our 'material' reality in the first place. John 1:1-3 In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. (of note: 'Word' in Greek is 'Logos', and is the root word from which we get our word 'Logic') This strange anomaly between lack of energy consumption and the computation of information seems to hold for the human mind as well. Appraising the brain's energy budget: Excerpt: In the average adult human, the brain represents about 2% of the body weight. Remarkably, despite its relatively small size, the brain accounts for about 20% of the oxygen and, hence, calories consumed by the body. This high rate of metabolism is remarkably constant despite widely varying mental and motoric activity. The metabolic activity of the brain is remarkably constant over time. http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10237.full THE EFFECT OF MENTAL ARITHMETIC ON CEREBRAL CIRCULATION AND METABOLISM Excerpt: Although Lennox considered the performance of mental arithmetic as "mental work", it is not immediately apparent what the nature of that work in the physical sense might be if, indeed, there be any. If no work or energy transformation is involved in the process of thought, then it is not surprising that cerebral oxygen consumption is unaltered during mental arithmetic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC438861/pdf/jcinvest00624-0127.pdf The preceding experiments are very unexpected to materialists since materialists hold that 'mind' is merely a 'emergent property' of the physical processes of the material brain. in further note: Considering computers can't pass this following test for creating new information,,, "... no operation performed by a computer can create new information." -- Douglas G. Robertson, "Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test," Complexity, Vol.3, #3 Jan/Feb 1999, pp. 25-34. http://www.evoinfo.org/ ,,Whereas humans can fairly easily pass the test for creating new information,, https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/atheisms-not-so-hidden-assumptions/#comment-357770 ,,,thus these findings strongly imply that we humans have a 'higher informational component' to our being,, i.e. these findings offer another line of corroborating evidence which is very suggestive to the idea that humans have a mind which is transcendent of the physical brain and which is part of a 'unique soul from God'. Moreover this unique mind that we humans have seems to be capable of a special and intimate communion with God that is unavailable to other animals, i.e. we are capable of communicating information with "The Word" as described John 1:1. Though the authors of the 'Evolution of the Genus Homo' paper appear to be thoroughly mystified by the fossil record, they never seem to give up their blind faith in evolution despite the disparity they see first hand in the fossil record. In spite of their philosophical bias, I have to hand it to them for being fairly honest with the evidence though. I especially like how the authors draw out this following 'what it means to be human' distinction in their paper: "although Homo neanderthalensis had a large brain, it left no unequivocal evidence of the symbolic consciousness that makes our species unique." -- "Unusual though Homo sapiens may be morphologically, it is undoubtedly our remarkable cognitive qualities that most strikingly demarcate us from all other extant species. They are certainly what give us our strong subjective sense of being qualitatively different. And they are all ultimately traceable to our symbolic capacity. Human beings alone, it seems, mentally dissect the world into a multitude of discrete symbols, and combine and recombine those symbols in their minds to produce hypotheses of alternative possibilities. When exactly Homo sapiens acquired this unusual ability is the subject of debate." The authors of the paper try to find some evolutionary/materialistic reason for the extremely unique 'information capacity' of humans, but of course they never find a coherent reason. Indeed why should we ever consider a process, which is utterly incapable of ever generating any complex functional information at even the most foundational levels of molecular biology, to suddenly, magically, have the ability to generate our brain which can readily understand and generate functional information? A brain which has been repeatedly referred to as 'the Most Complex Structure in the Universe'? The authors never seem to consider the 'spiritual angle' for why we would have such a unique capacity for such abundant information processing. This following short video, and verses, are very clear as to what the implications of this evidence means to us and for us: Modus Tollens - It Is Impossible For Evolution To Be True - T.G. Peeler - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5047482 Genesis 3:8 And they (Adam and Eve) heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day... John 1:1-1 In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. These following studies, though of materialistic bent, offer strong support that Humans are extremely unique in this 'advanced information' capacity: Darwin’s mistake: Explaining the discontinuity between human and nonhuman minds: Excerpt: There is a profound functional discontinuity between human and nonhuman minds. We argue that this discontinuity pervades nearly every domain of cognition and runs much deeper than even the spectacular scaffolding provided by language or culture can explain. We hypothesize that the cognitive discontinuity between human and nonhuman animals is largely due to the degree to which human and nonhuman minds are able to approximate the higher-order, systematic, relational capabilities of a physical symbol system (i.e. we are able to understand information). Origin of the Mind: Marc Hauser Excerpt: "Researchers have found some of the building blocks of human cognition in other species. But these building blocks make up only the cement footprint of the skyscraper that is the human mind",,, bornagain77
Here are some of my notes for why the consciousness of man should be considered distinct from a material basis: These following studies and videos confirm this 'superior quality' of existence for our souls/minds: The Mental Universe - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke "decoherence" - the notion that "the physical environment" is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in "Renninger-type" experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: "Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely 'Monitored' Near Death Experience of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ Quantum Consciousness - Time Flies Backwards? - Stuart Hameroff MD Excerpt: Dean Radin and Dick Bierman have performed a number of experiments of emotional response in human subjects. The subjects view a computer screen on which appear (at randomly varying intervals) a series of images, some of which are emotionally neutral, and some of which are highly emotional (violent, sexual....). In Radin and Bierman's early studies, skin conductance of a finger was used to measure physiological response They found that subjects responded strongly to emotional images compared to neutral images, and that the emotional response occurred between a fraction of a second to several seconds BEFORE the image appeared! Recently Professor Bierman (University of Amsterdam) repeated these experiments with subjects in an fMRI brain imager and found emotional responses in brain activity up to 4 seconds before the stimuli. Moreover he looked at raw data from other laboratories and found similar emotional responses before stimuli appeared. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/views/TimeFlies.html In The Wonder Of Being Human: Our Brain and Our Mind, Eccles and Robinson discussed the research of three groups of scientists (Robert Porter and Cobie Brinkman, Nils Lassen and Per Roland, and Hans Kornhuber and Luder Deeke), all of whom produced startling and undeniable evidence that a "mental intention" preceded an actual neuronal firing - thereby establishing that the mind is not the same thing as the brain, but is a separate entity altogether. http://books.google.com/books?id=J9pON9yB8HkC&pg=PT28&lpg=PT28 “As I remarked earlier, this may present an “insuperable” difficulty for some scientists of materialists bent, but the fact remains, and is demonstrated by research, that non-material mind acts on material brain.” Eccles "Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder." Heinrich Heine - in the year 1834 bornagain77
rockyr, thanks that was a interesting tidbit to learn. along that line, I've heard much of Freud's "psychology", if its even called that anymore, was influenced by cocaine. bornagain77
bornagain77, It is curious that you should bring up Wallace in this context. Wallace was an interesting and open-minded person, who was politely defending Darwinism, or rather certain undeniable consequences of natural selection, as he saw them and understood them. (See for example "Darwinism: An Exposition of the Theory of Natural Selection, with Some of Its Applications.") However, from the point of view of this topic of the subconscious, it would be much more interesting to mention that Wallace, who was as a child and student subjected to phrenology and mesmerism, later became interested in these, as well as in spiritualism and theosophy. Besides, it is a rather curious trivia that Wallace discovered natural selection in a fit of delirium, see for example here: http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/the-evolution-of-a-naturalist One could or should be also curious about how Darwin discovered natural selection — Darwin suffered from a mysterious disease, and was consequently often medicated by his wife's opiate based home remedy. rockyr
Of related interest: Derek Paravicini is Literally A Living Miracle. This video has to be the most dramatic testimony of the ability of the human spirit to overcome physical limitations that I have ever seen Derek Paravicini on 60 MINUTES - Autistic Savant - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4303465 bornagain77
This article from ENV is of related interest: Alfred Russel Wallace, Co-Discoverer of Evolution by Natural Selection -- and "Creationist" Excerpt: The difference between man and the other animals is unbridgeable. Mathematics is alone sufficient to prove in man the possession of a faculty unexistent in other creatures. Then you have music and the artistic faculty. No, the soul was a separate creation. - Alfred Russel Wallace,,, The point is, Steven Pinker notwithstanding, the human mind remains as unexplained by Darwinian principles as when Wallace raised these issues. The repeated failures of materialistic explanations for the human mind and for the origin of life must keep "creationism," in Alfred Russel Wallace's sense, viably on the table for discussion. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/08/alfred_russel_wallace_co-disco037401.html#more Other than he neglected to mention the fact that neo-Darwinian evolution has not even explained the origination of ANY functional/mathematical information in a genome whatsoever, much less a mind that understands math, I rather enjoyed the article. bornagain77
Actually, Dr. Hart's article should have been called "Mysteries of Subconsciousness", or technically and historically "The Mysteries of Unconscious Mind." (Considering that the term "unconscious" was used by the pioneer psychologists from William James, to Freud and Jung, who delved into these phenomena.) Dr. Hart is asking — What does it all mean, though? And this is the million dollar question many of the researchers of the subconscious have been asking all along. This is an interesting topic, although it would take some knowledge and serious effort to discuss the issues in the context of the Intelligent Design, say of the design of human mind. However, the danger is that the correct interpretation of the subconscious presents all sorts of unexpected and surprising dangers and pitfalls, just as it all affected Carl Jung, so one should be very careful when delving into these phenomena. Besides, as one blogger comments: "People seem to have all sorts of "feelings'' that they interpret supertitiously. I cannot count how many times, I, have had "feelings'' that turned out to be nothing. And, sometimes, we think that events, that coincided have some "meaning'', and yet they do not have any intrinsic meaning to them. and yet, we behave as if they do, and we end up creating a "self fulfilling prophecy." Wise words. rockyr

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