Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Has Jeffrey Shallit’s Fundamentalism Driven Him Barking Mad?

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In recent days Jeffrey Shallit and I have been discussing the differences between a random string of text and a designed string of text. I put the two strings up in this post; Shallit responded in this post; I responded to Shallit in this post; and Shallit replied here.

After all of this back and forth, the one question that remains is the question in the title to this post. Has Jeffrey Shallit’s fundamentalism driving him barking mad?

To remind readers, here are the two strings:

#1:
OipaFJPSDIOVJN;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZD
VZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoidfaf;asdfj;asdj[ije888
Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsa
dfviojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijsdsd;ja;dfksdasd
XKLZVsda2398R3495687OipaFJPSDIOVJN
;XDLVMK:DOIFHw;ZDVZX;Vxsd;ijdgiojadoi
Sdf;dj;Zsjvo;ai;divn;vkn;dfasdo;gfijSd;fiojsadfvi
ojasdgviojao’gijSd’gvijssdv.kasd994834234908u
XKLZVsda2398R34956873ACKLVJD;asdkjad
Sd;fjwepuJWEPFIhfasd;asdjf;asdfj;adfjasd;ifj
;asdjaiojaijeriJADOAJSD;FLVJASD;FJASDF;
DOAD;ADFJAdkdkas;489468503-202395ui34

#2:
To be, or not to be, that is the question—
Whether ’tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing, end them? To die, to sleep—
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? ‘Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there’s the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

Shakespeare vs. Keyboard Pounding: Which is “More Random”?

I constructed the first string of letters by haphazardly running my hands across my computer keyboard. The second string is obviously the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy. In his first post Shallit made the following statement:

String #2’s [Shakespeare] compressed version is bigger and therefore more random than string #1 [keyboard pounding]: exactly the opposite of what Arrington implied!

Dear reader, when you read that statement you probably concluded that Shallit had made an error, that he had gotten confused and transposed string #1 with string #2. But you would be wrong. Shallit was in earnest when he said that the first 12 lines of Hamlet’s soliloquy are “more random” than a string of text I composed by haphazardly running my hands across my computer keyboard.

In my response I wrote this concerning Shallit’s conclusion:

That is a sentence only a highly educated idiot could have written.

Now when I made that observation I assumed that Shallit did not actually mean what his words literally said. I assumed that like a fighter pilot who has succumbed to “target fixation,” he had lost sight of the hazard that his meaning would be misunderstood. And when I heard he had posted a response, I expected he would back off and explain how I had misunderstood him. I was wrong. In his reply, far from backing off his “Shakespeare is more random than keyboard pounding” lunacy, he actually doubled down and mocked me:

Ahh, the traditional ploy of the scientifically illiterate: your conclusion (about evolution, global warming, the roundness of the earth, scientific theory of disease) disagrees with my preconceptions. Therefore you are the idiot! Very Silly People have used this ploy for hundreds of years. So far it’s not working so well for them.

Shallit reaches a conclusion that is absurd on its face. I point that out. Instead of backing off the absurd conclusion, Shallit mocks me and says my pointing out that his conclusion was absurd was a mere “ploy” by someone who is “scientifically illiterate.”

Now we know that Jeffrey Shallit is a Darwinian fundamentalist, and fundamentalism by its nature often causes its adherents to make strange, even irrational, statements. Materialist fundamentalism especially is a very demanding religion. But rarely have I witnessed such a pristine example of fundamentalist lunacy: A highly-educated college professor willing to make an absolute fool of himself rather than admit he was wrong.

Can a Lawyer Comment on Shallit’s Lunacy?

Shallit takes several jabs at me in the nature of “how dare a CPA question me.” First, it is not clear why Shallit calls me a CPA. My bio clearly states that I left public accounting to attend law school. I am a lawyer. What can a lawyer bring to this topic? In Darwin on Trial Phillip Johnson wrote:

I am not a scientist but an academic lawyer by profession, with a specialty in analyzing the logic of arguments and identifying the assumptions that lie behind those arguments. This background is more appropriate than one might think, because what people believe about evolution and Darwinism depends very heavily on the kind of logic they employ and the kind of assumptions they make. Being a scientist is not necessarily an advantage when dealing with a very broad topic like evolution, which cuts across many scientific disciplines and also involves issues of philosophy. . . .the leading scientific figures have always assumed that nonscientist readers can understand the essential evidence. But evidence never speaks for itself; it has meaning only in the context of rules of reasoning which determine what may be considered and what counts as evidence. Those rules of reasoning are what I particularly want to examine.

In summary, lawyers bring training in logic, reasoning and the evaluation of evidence issues to the table, and as this exchange demonstrates, that training can be useful in dissecting the ramblings of fundamentalists like Shallit.

Randomness

Shallit:

I said string #1 was not as random as string #2 (in the sense of being more compressible)

Finally, we get to something that makes a modicum of sense. Shallit’s lunacy is at least partially explained by the fact that he chooses to operate solely within the confines of algorithmic complexity theory. As Wikepedia explains:

In particular, files of random data cannot be consistently compressed by any conceivable lossless data compression algorithm: indeed, this result is used to define the concept of randomness in algorithmic complexity theory.

Shallit’s target fixation is laid bare.  Shallit’s bizarre statement was caused by the intellectual blinders he has fastened to his face. Like the man in this picture, intellectual blinders can cause you to fall off into a hole of lunacy.

The following are the first two definitions of “random” in my dictionary:

Proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern:

Statistics. Of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

It may well be true that string #1 is more compressible than string #2 using some compressibility algorithm. But what does that have to do with the ID debate? My point has always been that string #1 is obviously random (using the first definition of random) and string #2 is obviously designed (it is the opposite of the first definition of random). “Ah ha,” Shallit says, “I have just demonstrated that string #2 is more random by running the strings through a compression algorithm.  Therefore, Barry is wrong.”

Talk about willfully missing the point. Shallit fixates on the second definition of “random” and insists that “designed” is not the opposite of “random.” That may be if one uses the second definition of random, but it is glaringly obvious that ID uses “random” in the first sense, and in that sense “random” is in fact the opposite of designed, which brings us back to where were started:

The first string of text is random in the sense that it was made “without definite aim, reason, or pattern.” The second string is not random in the sense that it was in fact made with “definite aim, reason, or pattern.” The two strings are of nearly equal complexity. Yet one is obviously designed. How can we tell the designed string from the random string? Because not only is the second string complex, but also it conforms to a specification.  Therefore, we conclude that the second string is rich in specified complex information and is therefore designed, not random.  Any suggestion that the second string is “more random” than the first string is absurd on its face if we use any common sense definition of “random.”

Comments
Further comments on this issue should be posted here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/kf-cuts-to-the-chase-again/Barry Arrington
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
03:35 PM
3
03
35
PM
PST
BTW, it's not like the anti-ID position will ever acknowledge the objective validity of specification anyway. Shallit's claim, although it misses the point (and perhaps intentionally) is quite possibly wrong. It looks like string #2 is indeed more compressible, and hence "less random" by his own standard of measurement. Again my numbers may be in error; but if not, by all measures put forward, the Shakespeare text is "less random". ;)Chance Ratcliff
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
03:29 PM
3
03
29
PM
PST
Eric @ 124, yes, it should be entirely beside the point. But according to the OP, the claim was that string #2 was "more random" due to being less compressible. By the numbers, this doesn't appear to be so (ignoring the false equivalency). I could be in error, but if my numbers are accurate, the "less compressible" distraction is not valid; not just because it ignores specification, but because it's not supported by the objective amount of uncertainty in the strings. Sometimes it's worthwhile to check the assumptions of the detractors, just in case they're wrong on the face of it.Chance Ratcliff
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
03:20 PM
3
03
20
PM
PST
Functional specification, especially. Joined to complexity implying 500 - 1,000+ y/N questions to identify the functionally specific config.kairosfocus
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
03:17 PM
3
03
17
PM
PST
Discussions about "randomness" often go quickly awry, as the concept has several meanings and some people deny the existence of randomness at all. I'm not sure much will be resolved by arguing over whether string #1 is more "random" than string #2 unless people are using the same definitions. If Shallit wants to focus on compressibility, fine. But he needs to understand and acknowledge that in that case, his entire beef about the randomness of the two strings amounts to a tempest in a teapot. It is not even relevant to the larger issue, which has to do with specification. Indeed, the entire question of compressibility (or, as Shallit focused on in my exchange with him recently, Kolmogorov information, or the Shannon metric, or any other compressibility/transmission algorithm) is largely irrelevant for purposes of determining specification and design. (Yes, there can be some limited utility in ascertaining sheer complexity, but that is it.) As I stated in my recent exchange with Shallit:
Again, [Shallit's focus on Kolmogorov information is] missing the issue entirely. Shallit has either not read up on what is required for complex, functional, specified systems or he hasn't understood what he has read. Hint: Kolmogorov information isn't going to get you anywhere. And no, it isn't an answer to what Hunter pointed out on his blog. And, no, it isn't related to where Adami was trying to go, which is the paper that started this whole discussion.
Let's keep the eye on the ball. The issues is specification. Getting distracted with compressibility and what is more "random" than something else allows Shallit to play endless games and continue to spew his juvenile vitriol, all the while avoiding the real central issues.Eric Anderson
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
03:12 PM
3
03
12
PM
PST
Addendum to my #119. Slightly different numbers using the UTF-8 character set, but the same relative result. Uniform method: String #1: 2837.16 bits String #2: 2879.50 bits Delta: 42.31 bits Frequency method: String #1: 2476.91 bits String #2: 2378.55 bits Delta: 98.36 bits When considering the frequency of characters as they appear in their respective strings, #2 appears to be around 98 bits lighter than #1, meaning the Shakespeare string is inherently more compressible, even though it is longer than the undirected string.Chance Ratcliff
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
02:51 PM
2
02
51
PM
PST
Splatter:
Consider this code. We start with 1000 organisms encoded by 8 bit genomes. If the first bit of the genome is 1, the organism has a 95% chance of survival; otherwise the chance is 40%. If an organism survives it has a single offspring. The probability of a bitwise mutation in the offspring is 1 in 100. The fifth bit, if set, repairs the first bit to “true”. The sixth bit repairs the second bit, etc. You will notice if you run this code, that the first and fourth bits are favoured. The first bit obviously aids survival. The fifth bit enables survival indirectly by repairing the first. Consequently, the assertion that a repair system can’t coevolve with function in principle is faulty, I think I’ve shown.
How can you say this when you start out with a gene repair mechanism that is already specified a priori? Come on, man. You got to do better than that.Mapou
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:51 PM
1
01
51
PM
PST
118 Aleta October 5, 2014 at 2:23 pm can you positively, then, identify the string I posted as designed?
What part of "ID doesn’t claim to prevent false negatives" don't you understand?? .cantor
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:37 PM
1
01
37
PM
PST
116 Aleta October 5, 2014 at 2:16 pm I haven’t been snide, rude, or condescending
Your response to my attempt to provide you with the information you requested was rude and uncalled-for. When I pointed this out, you doubled-down instead of apologizing. I warned you about a pissing match. Apparently you can dish it out, but you can't take it. .cantor
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:26 PM
1
01
26
PM
PST
Regarding the OP, has anyone calculated the uncertainty of the two given strings? By my count, if we assume that the characters in each respective string are equiprobable, then: #1: 2909.48 bits #2: 2969.93 bits Delta: 60.45 bits On that measure it looks like string #2 has more uncertainty. However if we make no such assumption, and factor in the frequency of the characters as they occur in the string, then: #1: 2544.10 bits #2: 2460.50 bits Delta: 83.6 bits In this case, it appears that string #1 has more uncertainty than #2, and is thereby less compressible. Imo, the latter is the more objective measure because it makes no assumption about the equiprobability of the characters in the set, but measures uncertainty by the frequency of occurrence of each character in its respective string. I'm curious if anyone has arrived at similar numbers, or different ones, and by what measure.Chance Ratcliff
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:26 PM
1
01
26
PM
PST
And to William J Murray: can you positively, then, identify the string I posted as designed?Aleta
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:23 PM
1
01
23
PM
PST
Joe writes, "For example if we received that over some secure channel we could assume it was an encrypted message. That tells us there is at least an attempt of communication." Yes, that would be an example of knowing something about the background history of something can help us know whether it is random or not.Aleta
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:22 PM
1
01
22
PM
PST
But Cantor, I haven't been snide, rude, or condescending - you have. I have pointed those things out, but I have not been uncivil in return. It was snide of you to post the cute little "do you know how to google" link, and I pointed that out. That's all. Then you said that maybe you needed to hold my hand, that maybe I had a reading comprehension problem, and that somethings should have been immediately obvious. Those were rude and condescending statements. It's not worth my time to try to discuss things with people who behave this way, so I will end my discussion with you.Aleta
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:16 PM
1
01
16
PM
PST
106 Aleta October 5, 2014 at 1:37 pm To be clear, the reason I am asking is because my thought at this point is that there isn’t any way to determine whether the string I posted is random or designed without knowing something about these things...
You need to read and re-read WJM's post #80 until you understand it:
80 William J Murray October 5, 2014 at 9:16 am Aleta, Whether or not we can know if the first string is random or not is irrelevant. We know the 2nd string is not. ID doesn’t claim to prevent false negatives, but rather claims that, above a certain threshold, it can find ID positives with near certainty.
cantor
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:16 PM
1
01
16
PM
PST
Aleta- the pattern in 64 appears random. And it would depend on the context as to whether any investigation is warranted. For example if we received that over some secure channel we could assume it was an encrypted message. That tells us there is at least an attempt of communication.Joe
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:12 PM
1
01
12
PM
PST
On another note: The second sequence clearly exhibits specified complexity as defined by ID, but does it contain any information? Meaning, does it reduce uncertainty? Does it have any meaning? Does it function for something other than musings in a play?Joe
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PST
103 Aleta October 5, 2014 at 1:00 pm Is the string I posted random or not?
Yes. And No. It depends on the receiver. And your definition of "random". I see you learned nothing from posts 35 and 75. .cantor
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
01:06 PM
1
01
06
PM
PST
The problem with using the word "random" in the technical sense is as Dembski pointed out and Shallit demonstrated-> intelligently designed prose will be more random than an attempt to be random.Joe
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:57 PM
12
12
57
PM
PST
103 Aleta October 5, 2014 at 1:00 pm Hi Cantor: Given your condescending rudeness...
Earth to Aleta: You started the fire at post 82, and I warned you, but you ignored my warning. Apparently you can dish it out, but you can't take it. .cantor
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:55 PM
12
12
55
PM
PST
PPS: People make a good enough for government work evaluation of randomness all the time based on observed statistical distributions, a sufficiently long pattern to credibly reveal a reasonable random distribution from tossing a die is more than good enough for practical purposes, and by contrast long enough suspicious runs point to non-random processes. As we all know -- just ask the Houses in Las Vegas. I suggest that these objectors take a little while to look at statistical process control and the use of control charts and the like.kairosfocus
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:50 PM
12
12
50
PM
PST
PS: Again and again I see the demand that design theory produce a universal decoder algorithm. This is unfair and a strawman, as there is utterly no good reason in theory of computation to expect such an algorithm to exist, so it is another way of saying no reasonable degree of evidence will be acceptable to such an objector -- selective hyperskepticism. And, if intentional after correction, patently dishonest and disrespectful. Instead, first, show your function, then assess complexity beyond 500 - 1,000 yes/no questions to specify the function, then discuss whether one can show a case where blind chance and necessity can credibly produce such in light of the needle in haystack search challenge implied. There are trillions of examples that show such by design, including posts in this thread. With ZERO credible examples tot he contrary.kairosfocus
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:46 PM
12
12
46
PM
PST
Folks, If one has a proposed definition of randomness that assigns the first twelve lines of the Hamlet soliloquy to being even remotely regarded as random, on the face of it, the definition (as used . . . abused?) fails. Period. No excuses or clever Emperor's fancy new robes talking points can rescue it. And we thought that was just a tale for kids . . . Instead, we need to go back to the analysis of strings provided by Trevors and Abel about a decade ago, contrasting order, randomness and functional sequence compressibility. Their Fig 4 will provide food for thought and perhaps BA may wish to add it to a PS to the OP for reference. BTW, it gives a very nice illustration of islands of function. Let me clip the abstract:
Genetic algorithms instruct sophisticated biological organization. Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC). FSC alone provides algorithmic instruction. Random and Ordered Sequence Complexities lie at opposite ends of the same bi-directional sequence complexity vector. Randomness in sequence space is defined by a lack of Kolmogorov algorithmic compressibility. A sequence is compressible because it contains redundant order and patterns. Law-like cause-and-effect determinism produces highly compressible order. Such forced ordering precludes both information retention and freedom of selection so critical to algorithmic programming and control. Functional Sequence Complexity requires this added programming dimension of uncoerced selection at successive decision nodes in the string. Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).
Shallit's primary technical error is to fail to see that functional organisation is ALSO a contrast to randomness, that is in turn also distinct from repetitive order. (This has been a commonplace of ID thought at least since Orgel's seminal remarks in 1973.) A functional, largely aperiodic coded sequence will resist compression a lot more than opopopop . . . n times. Just, not as hard as a flat random one. Where also, many random patterns are not flat uniform distribution random but have every right to the term. And meaningless, purposeless outcomes driven by chance are legitimately regarded as random. Similarly, a falling tumbling then settling die is random though its processes are deterministic -- the chaos of eight corners and twelve edges leads to uncontrollable contingency through clashing uncorrelated causal chains and hey presto a classic random outcome generator. By contrast something like Zener noise is apparently directly random tracing to quantum effects. Though, it is not flat. I have repeatedly talked about my Dad's phone book as poor man's random number table trick, based on uncorrelated clashing chains. In fact, the discussion of the contrast chance (and randomness) vs mechanical necessity vs design as intelligently directed contingency is reasonable. So is the view of chance and randomness in terms of credibly undirected contingency that tends to follow stochastic patterns. If this sort of scorched earth obfuscation to the point of willfully clinging to patent absurdities is what objectors to design thought are now embracing, that plainly means the basic design case is increasingly clearly the strong horse. KFkairosfocus
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:38 PM
12
12
38
PM
PST
To be clear, the reason I am asking is because my thought at this point is that there isn't any way to determine whether the string I posted is random or designed without knowing something about these things: a) how was the string produced - a question about its causal history, b) if it "means" anything or not in any possible "language", and/or c) the "aim or reason" for the string, other than just to be a random string. I guess I don't believe reliable information about the randomness of the string, according to Barry's definition of "Proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern" can be determined just by looking at the string itself without reference to these other elements concerning its history, meaning, or purpose.Aleta
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:37 PM
12
12
37
PM
PST
I meant first and fifth, apologies.Splatter
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:34 PM
12
12
34
PM
PST
Consider this code. We start with 1000 organisms encoded by 8 bit genomes. If the first bit of the genome is 1, the organism has a 95% chance of survival; otherwise the chance is 40%. If an organism survives it has a single offspring. The probability of a bitwise mutation in the offspring is 1 in 100. The fifth bit, if set, repairs the first bit to "true". The sixth bit repairs the second bit, etc. You will notice if you run this code, that the first and fourth bits are favoured. The first bit obviously aids survival. The fifth bit enables survival indirectly by repairing the first. Consequently, the assertion that a repair system can't coevolve with function in principle is faulty, I think I've shown. This is what I mean by words not being enough (though important). You need proofs, or simulations, or something. ninit = 1000; orgs = rand(ninit, 8) <= 0.5; ngen = 100; Q = zeros(ngen, 8); for g = 1:1000 ps = zeros(size(orgs, 1), 1); ps( orgs(:,1)) = 0.95; ps(~orgs(:,1)) = 0.4; mask = rand(size(ps)) <= ps; orgs(~mask,:) = []; mut = rand(size(orgs)) <= 0.01; orgs(mut) = ~orgs(mut); orgs(orgs(:,5),1) = true; orgs(orgs(:,6),2) = true; orgs(orgs(:,7),3) = true; orgs(orgs(:,8),4) = true; Q(g,:) = mean(orgs)'; fprintf('Gen = %d, Orgs = %d\n', g, size(orgs,1)); fprintf('Mean fitness: %f\n', mean(orgs)'); pause; end Splatter
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:33 PM
12
12
33
PM
PST
Hi Cantor: Given your condescending rudeness, the smart thing for me to do would be to bow out of this conversation. However, I'll ask again. Is the string I posted random or not? What procedures would one use to go about investigating that question? It is obviously not subject to the "I know it isn't random because I see it's Hamlet's soliloquy" test. What more sophisticated tests could one use? Can you give a clear, concise answer to that question?Aleta
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
12:00 PM
12
12
00
PM
PST
92 Aleta October 5, 2014 at 11:46 am My fourth character is G and your fourth character 6
You have a reading comprehension problem. Or perhaps ADD. In post 78, it was clearly stated that the OTP was posted in hex:
Here’s the OTP (in hex):
The 4th byte in the OTP is 33h, not "6".
97 Aleta October 5, 2014 at 12:02 pm And actually, as I think more about this, I see that it’s possible that you could have created your string to map my string to the preamble... If that’s what you’ve done, then it’s a neat trick that avoids the real issue at hand.
Of course that's what I did. It should have been immediately obvious. And if you had the attention span to think about it even for a minute, you'd realize it goes directly to the heart of "the real issue at hand". .cantor
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
11:51 AM
11
11
51
AM
PST
Splatter:
I guess an evolutionist would argue that the gene repair mechanism co-evolved with the genes they repair.
Which is why evolutionists are out to lunch. That's not even wrong, IMO.Mapou
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
11:48 AM
11
11
48
AM
PST
I guess an evolutionist would argue that the gene repair mechanism co-evolved with the genes they repair. I agree that ideas about randomness can be expressed in plain English (or whatever). But where confusion abounds (and it seems to on these forums), would it not be wise to fall back on standard notation and ideas from mathematics as a means to reduce the contention - and rancor? The formation of complex structures in spite of destructive forces in the system is an obstacle for materialism, I agree. But configurations that are stable in the face of counteracting influences (speaking loosely) are likely to persist and grow in abundance - and I think that is how the Darwinists reason. Certainly Dawkins thinks this way.Splatter
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
11:40 AM
11
11
40
AM
PST
As a follow-up to 98, no gene repair mechanism can evolve without a gene repair mechanism. Evolution = Snake eating tail.Mapou
October 5, 2014
October
10
Oct
5
05
2014
11:30 AM
11
11
30
AM
PST
1 2 3 … 5