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Hatred of Religion By Materialists More Virulent Than Previously Thought Possible

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See update at the end of this post.

In the comment section to the last post Bill Dembski alluded to an NSF staffer who attempted to justify surfing porn at work.  The staffer’s justification:  he was only trying to help provide a living to poor overseas women. Denyse O’Leary suggested that if this loser had really wanted to help poor women overseas he could have made a donation to any of the various religious orders that actually help poor women overseas instead of participating in ensnaring them in sexual slavery. Dembski responded by posing tongue-in-cheek the following question:

Denyse, You raise an interesting question for Richard Dawkins: If we had to choose one or the other, helping “poor overseas women” by (1) frequenting at taxpayer’s expense porn sites that pay these women a cut, the porn sites presumably constituting a purely secular activity or by (2) donating money to Catholic/Protestant charities that care for these women by providing shelter, food, and medical care, these charities constituting a religious activity, which should we prefer? I suspect RD, given his virulent hatred of religion, would opt for (1).

At least Dembski thought the question was tongue-in-cheek. Who could have expected the reply from someone who calls himself Seversky? First Seversky defended pornography on the ground that it has been around a long time. Seversky, rape, murder, and theft have been around for a long time too; does that make you in favor of those activities as well?

Then Seversky  takes a swipe at Christians who have caused scandals by falling to sexual sin. I suppose Seversky is pushing the risible notion that these handful of failures are somehow representative of the hundreds of millions of Christians who strive daily to live lives marked by adherence to the Golden Rule.

But Seversky’s defense of porn and his attempt to smear millions both pale in comparison to this gob-smacking passage: “I cannot speak for Richard Dawkins but I know I would prefer to give to those that do not include proselytization [sic] as part of their program.”

 There you have it. Our opponents count among their number a man who would rather see a young woman live in sexual slavery if that’s what it takes to insulate her from the influence of Christians who would try to help her. After I picked myself up from the floor, my first inclination was to delete the comment and ban this moral monster from the site. Then, I thought better of it. Instead, of deleting the comment, I will put it out there for everyone in the world to see. And I say this to our opponents who appear at this site: How do you answer Dembski’s question? Do you agree with Seversky? If not, will you remain silent or will you come on here and distance yourself from the views he expressed?

Update:  As I write this 27 comments have been made.  As I expected, the materialists have stood by their man Seversky, mainly by advancing patently absurd interpretations of his comments.  And they’ve even attacked me, also as expected.  Pathetic.  Again, I was tempted to delete their comments, but I will not.  Instead, I will leave their moral squalor on display for all to see.

41 comments now and still not one materialist has condemned Seversky’s views.  Astounding.

Comments
Learned Hand: "Did she raise you rightly enough that you would apologize for accusing him of approving of rape? As I see it, you’ve said a terrible thing and entirely unjustified thing about him. What makes that right? What do you do if it’s wrong?" According to evolution(which Seversky supports), rape is a natural part of the human condition (see, for example, the book The Natural History of Rape by Randy Thornhill et al). Why wouldn't he approve of something that is perfectly acceptable to evolutionary biology?Barb
October 4, 2009
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As I expected, the materialists have stood by their man Seversky, mainly by advancing patently absurd interpretations of his comments.
I am not a materialist, but am still wondering why you are drawing an equivalence between Seversky's stated preference to support secular charities with a desire to keep women in sexual slavery. I have to assume you are referencing additional comments from Seversky that were too odious to publish because, like most of the other commentors I can see no chain of fact statements that lead from S's comment to your conclusion. Since you plan on leaving their (and apparently my) moral squalor for the world to see, perhaps you could use this as a teachable moment to draw the line between supporting secular charities and supporting forced sexual slavery? I don't appreciate being painted with the same broad brush and would appreciate a better explanation.quaggy
October 4, 2009
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The last sentence @33 should read as follows: For seversky, and for you, I suspect, pornography is not nearly as big a problem as those who criticize it.StephenB
October 4, 2009
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—–Learned Hand: “Seversky is not defending pornography. He is observing that it has been around for a long time, and is difficult to suppress. At no point does he make a moral judgment in favor or pornography. His point appears to be a criticism of the implied connection between the subject’s position as an NSF staffer and his misdeeds, not a defense of those deeds. Seversky’s first point is that pornography is not worth fighting. For him, society has tried as various times and places to stop it, but they just couldn’t get the job done. That is what is called the famous Darwinist “it’s-just-reality-you-are-going-to-have-live-with-it” defense. They do the same thing with pre-teen sex and abortion. Seversky’s second point is that pornography is a “by-produce of sexuality,” meaning that it is quite natural and to be expected. That is yet another defense. —-“In other words, the institutions of science and the institutions of ID are both staffed with human beings, with human failings. At no point does Seversky “defend[] pornography.” On the contrary. He is, in yet his third defense of pornography saying this: A commitment to a Christian world view is no more likely to curb pornography than any other world view. That is obviously a ridiculous statement. Whoever heard of a Darwinist recommending self control the sake of a higher good? Whoever heard of a Darwinist pointing out that immersing oneself in pornography is like is like pouring sewer into the mind? Whoever heard of a Darwinist warning gullible onlookers that pornography can enslave the will and destroy the faculty of reason? Seversky’s point is very simple: Pornography is not worth fighting, and, in any case, religion offers no mental, volitional, or moral tools to fight it. That is a defense of pornography. —-“Seversky’s point is exactly the opposite of what you imply. In fact, he explicitly refers to “a few Catholic priests” (emphasis added). He does not suggest in any way that the failings of a few are extensible to the many; it appears, in fact, to be entirely contrary to his point.” Wrong again. Seversky’s point is that Christians are hypocrites. For him, they fall short of their own standards, which is an extension of his earlier argument. We should not try to fight pornography, pornography is natural, and Christians are hypocrites for preaching against it because some of them have failed their own test of morality. For seversky, and for you, I suspect, pornography is not nearly as big of a problem as thoseStephenB
October 4, 2009
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Mr Arrington, The interest in the responses is not in the expected, it is in the unexpected. It isn't just teh ebil materialists that think you have overshot. But following Mrs O'Leary, lets shift the discourse slightly. Is there moral squalor in odious false dichotomy? If a trial lawyer asks a witness "Have you stopped beating your wife? Just answer the question!" is there any element of moral squalor in the approach? In the American advocacy system of pursuing justice, who is allowed to object to that kind of question? Is the witness allowed to object? Does the American Bar Association have a position on this kind of questioning?Nakashima
October 4, 2009
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Barry, are you lumping Joseph (comment #25) into the materialistic "moral squalor" camp? Just curious.Hedge
October 4, 2009
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Seversky's comment taken as it was, did not actually answer Dembski's question, but created a new question which was easier to answer. Dembski's question was would RD use the money to: 1) Pay for porn to help poor women or 2) Give to religious charities to help poor women Seversky said he and RD, given the following options: A) Give money to a religious charity to help poor women or B) Give money to a non-religious charity to help poor women would choose B). Basically, he changed the question and then answered it. I would like to see his answer to the original question. Of course, he cannot be assumed to speak for RD but one can hope.tragic mishap
October 4, 2009
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Isn't Seversky a previously banned commentator?ShawnBoy
October 4, 2009
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This is becoming a hot topic, so I will try to move the kettle off the stove for a bit. A couple of reflections: Pornography tends to corrupt relations between men and women for several reasons: - Little pornography is prepared for women. This fact tells you something right away. (Note: If you know of some, do not send any of it to me. I can be one mean granny when people abuse my Inbox. I am here as a help, not a target for any kind of abuse.) - Pornography leads to expectations that typical women cannot meet. That leads men to want things they will not get from normal relationships with, for example, wives who make good mothers, who will support the guy in time of trouble and during the difficulties of old age. Remember that in most societies, women live longer than men ... So the guy winds up a loser because he was ogling more beautiful but far less personable women. - I doubt this can be proven, but pornography is probably a factor in violence against women. A police officer once told me that it was rare NOT to find pornography when searching the flat of an accused perp. So pornography probably functions as a lure for sex tourism. - Pornography is NOT a fact of life, any more than public profanity is. If you have a big porn industry, you will have lots of porn. If you have a small porn industry, you will have little of it. In the same way, if someone starts using profanity on a TV show and tens of thousands of people just change the channel immediately, what do you think will happen to the ratings and the advertising revenue? - As a free speech journalist, I am always leery of laws in these areas, because laws are useless compared to public distaste and disapproval. Of course I think sexual abuse of minors should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and I assume that all decent people agree. But the first step is broad public disapproval of the practices and the mindset that leads to them.O'Leary
October 4, 2009
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Mr Hayden, It will be Mr Arrington waiting a long time, not I. But, you could always unban Mr Diffaxial, and see what happens.Nakashima
October 4, 2009
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#25 Congrats to Joseph for a calm and reasonable assessment of Seversky's comments. As for the last paragraph: As for charitable donations, I cannot speak for Richard Dawkins but I know I would prefer to give to those that do not include proselytization as part of their program. He is only answering the question that Dembski asked. It was light-hearted question (I hope) and I read it as a light-hearted response. Barry - this is an utterly absurd outburst.Mark Frank
October 4, 2009
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Seversky: Whether we like it or not, pornography seems to have been a by-product of human sexuality at least since recorded history began. Societies have, at various times, indulged it or tried to suppress it. Neither approach stopped it.
Apologies Barry but I do not read that as defending porno. Explaining it perhaps, but not defending it.
Seversky: Nor has religious affiliation been as successful at immunizing believers against sexual misbehavior as its adherents like to believe. The scandal of abuse by a few Catholic priests has already been alluded to and there is surely no need to remind onlookers of the cases of other prominent Christians who have fallen below the standards of morality they preached to others.
Maybe a little overboard but not a lie. He was making a point. People in glass houses type of deal.
Seversky: As for charitable donations, I cannot speak for Richard Dawkins but I know I would prefer to give to those that do not include proselytization as part of their program.
That is borderline stupid by lumping all Christians together. However Seversky seems to have missed the point. Sherkin' the gherkin on taxpayer's money is a no-no.Joseph
October 4, 2009
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sorry for the typos - it should read, "so many Christians, so few lions".Borne
October 4, 2009
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Atheist hatred for religion (especially Christianity) is becoming livid, fanatical and disgusting these days. There is now a bumper sticker going around that says, "so
many Christians, so few lion".
The Christians will no doubt tolerate this, as they do everything else the threatens their very existence today. But what do you think would happen if people were driving around with a sticker that said rather, "so many Jews, so few death camps", or ,"so many Muslims so few grenades"? It wouldn't last more than 20 minutes before being pulled over, stoned or Molotov cocktailed and then becoming a national disgrace generating rage across the region if not the country. Pathetic how these lame brained atheists dimwits can get away with this and Christians are supposed to roll over and play dead - pretend it isn't happening. I for one am sick of this spineless wimp version of Christianity that seems to prevail these days. I posted this on a Christian forum and asked what positive, appropriate action Christians should take. All I got was fluffy and foolish "I'd just love them back" and "accept that they are merely acting as per their sinful nature" or basically "leave it to God and do nothing". Some even said "rejoice its an honor to be persecuted for God". Not a single viable proposal for social action or outcry against such messages! The next generation of Xians are the ones who will end up paying the ultimate price for our sinful tolerance. About 170,000 Christians are martyred every year. If we continue doing basically nothing against such publicly displayed messages (showing homicidal sentiment) that's what America will start to see.Borne
October 4, 2009
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Clive, Your argument strikes me as weird. "Whether we like it or not, X is true" simply implies that the truth of X is not subject to our preferences -- i.e., X is true, regardless of how we feel about it. Example: "Like it or not, we're in a recession." There's nothing normative about it, and it certainly doesn't imply "moral relativism."Jordan
October 4, 2009
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NZer,
Within a “materialism only” worldview, what on earth is wrong with his pro-porn/anti-Christian comment. How can porn be objectively morally wrong if right and wrong are just constructs of societies?
That is the relativism that Seversky was implying, that since pornography was a result of our human sexuality as a result of being human, and that since it had always been around wherever humans are, and that some folks like it and some folks don't, hence a defense.Clive Hayden
October 4, 2009
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Monastyrski, It's claiming that some folks in general find it morally okay, that is to make it relevant. If you don't see how that implies moral relativism, I'm not sure what else I can do for you.Clive Hayden
October 4, 2009
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Nakashima,
Mr Arrington, you’ll have my response right after you post Diffaxial’s.
I banned Diffaxial, so you'll be waiting a long time.Clive Hayden
October 4, 2009
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Clive,
The difference is the implication that pornography wasn’t objectively morally wrong with the preface “Whether we like it or not”.
I don't see at all how that is implied. Can you explain, please?Monastyrski
October 4, 2009
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BillB,
The FACT is that Barry’s post is deeply dishonest and an immoral slur, the kind of thing we normally expect from KF.
It is not even shallowly dishonest. And I don't appreciate your slur on KF either. Maybe this should be the post which acts as a clearinghouse of all you who want to get off your chest what you really think and risk being banned.Clive Hayden
October 4, 2009
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BillB,
rape, murder, and theft have been around for a long time too; So does that mean he endorses them?
The difference is the implication that pornography wasn't objectively morally wrong with the preface "Whether we like it or not". It's the moral relevancy implied by Seversky that wouldn't apply to rape and murder. And the the following implication that it is normative. That is the difference. I should have made that point explicit, because I thought someone would bring it up.Clive Hayden
October 4, 2009
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Claiming that pornography has been around a long time whether we like it or not, is implying that it is something that just “is” wherever humans are as a result of being human, and something that just “is” a result of being human and existing over the course of human history is to give it a normative place in humanity.
Are you claiming that pornography has not been around for long? - I seem to remember seeing some Roman porn at Pompei. Making a factual observation like 'Pornography has been around for a long time' in no way advocates it - remember Barry said this:
rape, murder, and theft have been around for a long time too;
So does that mean he endorses them? I suspect this is not about what he said so much as finding a way of manufacturing an excuse to ban a long time ID critic who has always behaved civilly, and never given you a convenient excuse to silence them. The FACT is that Barry's post is deeply dishonest and an immoral slur, the kind of thing we normally expect from KF. And I'll just re state my earlier question: If I said "Anti-semitism has been around for a very long time" would you claim I was advocating anti-semitism? I suspect you would, if it suited your purpose.BillB
October 4, 2009
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Within a "materialism only" worldview, what on earth is wrong with his pro-porn/anti-Christian comment. How can porn be objectively morally wrong if right and wrong are just constructs of societies?NZer
October 4, 2009
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I was unaware that pornographers do not proselytize. Now I know.prhean
October 4, 2009
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Learned Hand,
Seversky’s point is exactly the opposite of what you imply. In fact, he explicitly refers to “a few Catholic priests” (emphasis added). He does not suggest in any way that the failings of a few are extensible to the many; it appears, in fact, to be entirely contrary to his point.
He points out that Christianity doesn't absolutely and in every case immunize everyone from sexual misdeeds by mentioning a few cases. The implication is that Christianity doesn't stop sexual immorality in general. Barry's characterization is right. Seversky's point would be trivial if he only meant it to apply to a few men in the history of the faith and the enormous numbers of believers over that history. And, not to mention, how could anyone know how many people have refrained from sexual immorality because they were Christians? How do we know that it hasn't been a calming effect on the otherwise rampant nature of the sexual impulse? The individual testimonies of Christians is such that this is vindicated as an outlook on the whole affair. The only moral failings I see in this chain are yours and Seversky's. Barry's characterization of Seversky is exactly correct and spot on. That you would attempt to turn the argument around shows your intentional intellectual dis-ingenuousness to back your side when your side is clearly wrong, and this flies in the face of common decency. I recall that you claim to be an attorney sir, and this disappoints me. You give life to the atheistic/materialistic stereotype that perverts justice and argues vainly. I wonder about your interpretative ability, you see the opposite of what should be seen as obviously written and obviously intended. This has happened over and over, to the point that I doubt we can have any useful conversation. Claiming that pornography has been around a long time whether we like it or not, is implying that it is something that just "is" wherever humans are as a result of being human, and something that just "is" a result of being human and existing over the course of human history is to give it a normative place in humanity. This implication is obvious, but for you, either you don't get it, or you intentionally avoid this implication to back your side of the argument. I think you get it, and I think that you think that the gray area is enough for you to move in. That anything short of explicit and unalterable declarations, you have room to change meaning from what was originally implied. I've seen this consistently from you, and it's very annoying. I bet you even pride yourself with this manipulative ability. It certainly seems evident that you consider yourself talented enough to be brazen in your employment of it, that's obvious. And the interesting thing is that you're quick to fault Barry for what you perceive to be the same tactic. Barry doesn't have the guile that you have, nor the self-referential incoherence, nor the hypocrisy. Good day sir.Clive Hayden
October 4, 2009
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On reading Seversky's comment in the context of the thread, I think the stress (bolding) of the word 'prefer' in the original shows that Seversky is trying to opt out of Dr Dembski's odious false dichotomy. Mr Arrington, you'll have my response right after you post Diffaxial's.Nakashima
October 4, 2009
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All that’s required to prove Barry wrong is Seversky showing and saying that he doesn’t believe what Barry says he does. Mr. Arrington didn't read Seversky's mind, he read a single comment. His insults are based on that single comment. All that's required to prove Mr. Arrington right is for him to show where in that comment he finds any basis for accusing Seversky of preferring rape to religion. Seversky needn't defend himself, as he is not in the wrong here. IDists seem to pride themselves on their superior moral instincts, but I see no basis for that here. This is an appallingly unethical post, and I'm shocked that Barb and tragic mishap don't seem to put any value on an honest appraisal of what's been said.Learned Hand
October 4, 2009
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Barry: If I said "Hitler killed lots of Jews", would you then accusing me of defending Hitler?BillB
October 4, 2009
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Barry, perhaps you should re-read Seversky’s post, here, I'll reproduce it:
Whether we like it or not, pornography seems to have been a by-product of human sexuality at least since recorded history began. Societies have, at various times, indulged it or tried to suppress it. Neither approach stopped it.
Nothing in that sentence is an endorsement of pornography, it is factual observation - or are you going to deny that pornography has a long history? Seversky also said:
As for charitable donations, I cannot speak for Richard Dawkins but I know I would prefer to give to those that do not include proselytization as part of their program.
To which you reply:
There you have it. Our opponents count among their number a man who would rather see a young woman live in sexual slavery if that’s what it takes to insulate her from the influence of Christians who would try to help her.
Is that what Seversky said? No. He said he would prefer to give charitably to secular organisations in order to help these people. He did not say that he would rather let them suffer. Can I ask - have you put Seversky in moderation or will he be allowed to defend him/herself? Can I also ask that you pay more attention to the notion of 'bearing false witness'BillB
October 4, 2009
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All that's required to prove Barry wrong is Seversky showing and saying that he doesn't believe what Barry says he does. So how about it Seversky?tragic mishap
October 4, 2009
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