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Hitchhiker’s Guide author’s “puddle” argument against fine-tuning — and a response

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At Stand to Reason, Tim Barnett reminds us of an argument against fine-tuning of the universe Douglas Adams (1952–2001) offers in one of the Hitchhiker books (he Salmon of Doubt: Hitchhiking the Galaxy One Last Time):

This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, “This is an interesting world I find myself in—an interesting hole I find myself in—fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!” This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.

Barnett responds:

In the puddle analogy, the puddle—Doug—can exist in any hole. That’s how puddles work. The shape of the hole is irrelevant to the existence of the puddle. If you change the shape of the hole, the shape of the puddle changes, but you always get a puddle.

The problem is, life doesn’t work like that. Life cannot exist in any universe. The evidence from fine-tuning shows that a life-permitting universe is extremely rare. If you change certain conditions of the universe, you cannot get life anywhere in the universe. For instance, slightly increase the mass of the electron or the up quark, and get a universe with nothing but neutrons. No stars. No planets. No chemistry. No life.

Tim Barnett, “Why the Puddle Analogy Fails against Fine-Tuning” at Stand to Reason (April 22, 2021)

It’s a good argument. But in reality, any argument against fine-tuning will be accepted, whether it makes sense or not. It is only the defenders of a rational universe who need to make sense. And that’s not for the other guy; it’s for you.

See also: What becomes of science when the evidence does not matter?

Comments
BA77
In short, some of these supposed inaccuracies turns the claim that the Bible is inaccurate on its head and shows how some of these supposed inaccuracies are actually proof of its authenticity. In fact there is an entire, (long neglected), field of apologetics devoted to this area of study. It’s called ‘Undesigned Coincidences”
If the Bible is the inerrant word of God, why would you need apologetics?paige
May 2, 2021
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Jerry@245, thanks for the laugh. This thread was getting far too serious. :) that was Douglas Adam’s worthy.paige
May 2, 2021
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@bornagain77:
AC, again, the Bible disagrees with you.
Already answered in 234:
Your description doesn’t include atheists. Atheists are exactly those people who do not clearly see your god’s “invisible” (??) qualities. That’s exactly where the unbelief comes from.
AndyClue
May 2, 2021
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AC, again, the Bible disagrees with you. So who am I going to trust, some anonymous, and IMHO unreasonable, blogger on the internet, or the word of God? Cue Jeopardy music.,,, Ding, ding, ding, I choose to trust the word of God.
Romans 1 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Of related interest, I also trust the science to tell me what atheist really believe in their hearts and to show me that they really are suppressing their innate belief in God Studies establish that the design inference is ‘knee jerk’ inference that is built into everyone, especially including atheists, and that atheists have to mentally work suppressing their “knee jerk” design inference!
Is Atheism a Delusion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? - October 17, 2012 Excerpt: "Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find." The article describes a test by Boston University's psychology department, in which researchers found that "despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose" ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html Richard Dawkins take heed: Even atheists instinctively believe in a creator says study - Mary Papenfuss - June 12, 2015 Excerpt: Three studies at Boston University found that even among atheists, the "knee jerk" reaction to natural phenomenon is the belief that they're purposefully designed by some intelligence, according to a report on the research in Cognition entitled the "Divided Mind of a disbeliever." The findings "suggest that there is a deeply rooted natural tendency to view nature as designed," writes a research team led by Elisa Järnefelt of Newman University. They also provide evidence that, in the researchers' words, "religious non-belief is cognitively effortful." Researchers attempted to plug into the automatic or "default" human brain by showing subjects images of natural landscapes and things made by human beings, then requiring lightning-fast responses to the question on whether "any being purposefully made the thing in the picture," notes Pacific-Standard. "Religious participants' baseline tendency to endorse nature as purposefully created was higher" than that of atheists, the study found. But non-religious participants "increasingly defaulted to understanding natural phenomena as purposefully made" when "they did not have time to censor their thinking," wrote the researchers. The results suggest that "the tendency to construe both living and non-living nature as intentionally made derives from automatic cognitive processes, not just practised explicit beliefs," the report concluded. The results were similar even among subjects from Finland, where atheism is not a controversial issue as it can be in the US. "Design-based intuitions run deep," the researchers conclude, "persisting even in those with no explicit religious commitment and, indeed, even among those with an active aversion to them." http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/richard-dawkins-take-heed-even-atheists-instinctively-believe-creator-says-study-1505712
bornagain77
May 2, 2021
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@bornagain77:
You have to ask the atheists here on UD whom refuse to accept God despite abundant evidence for His existence. I have no clue. I can’t fathom what would motivate such irrationally hostility towards God.
There are two choices: Accept god, or torment. - No atheist here has chosen god. Surely one of the reasons is that they do not know god. - Also no atheist here has chosen torment. No choice has been made. Which is a rational decision. Why would someone make an uninformed choice? (Even though I think even with enough information they will not chose torment :-D ) They WILL make a decision, when they get to know god and the question is being asked.
I never thought once of just outright denying his existence altogether. Its unfathomable to me.
It's unfathomable, to atheists and theists alike. How would that even work!? I've been angry at my brother many times. It never occurred to me to deny his existence as a result. I second WJM comment, which basically sums up my thoughts as well:
WJM: Refusing to accept that you have only two choices is not the same thing as choosing one or the other. Nobody is going to choose eternal torment; they may choose not to believe in it, or to not believe in a God that set it up; but that is not the same thing as choosing eternal torment. Especially not under duress.
Regarding the black hole:
That should, at least, raise an eyebrow.
It doesn't. I die falling from a cliff. I die falling into a black hole. I die when my head gets blown to peaces. How is it relevant to a soul?AndyClue
May 2, 2021
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I don’t care who your Dad is this is an illegal gathering. https://sadanduseless.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/illegal-gathering.jpgjerry
May 2, 2021
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Well Paige, contrary to what you believe, supposed inaccuracies in the New Testament, when examined in detail, often confirm the authenticity of New Testament accounts. In short, some of these supposed inaccuracies turns the claim that the Bible is inaccurate on its head and shows how some of these supposed inaccuracies are actually proof of its authenticity. In fact there is an entire, (long neglected), field of apologetics devoted to this area of study. It's called 'Undesigned Coincidences"
Tim McGrew - Undesigned coincidences - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLe1tMOs8ARn08J6XcziBKENY6GDdIP7LI Hidden in Plain View: Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels and Acts - Paperback – Lydia McGrew March 1, 2017 Hidden in Plain View: Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels and Acts revives an argument for the historical reliability of the New Testament that has been largely neglected for more than a hundred years. An undesigned coincidence is an apparently casual, yet puzzle-like “fit” between two or more texts, and its best explanation is that the authors knew the truth about the events they describe or allude to. Connections of this kind among passages in the Gospels, as well as between Acts and the Pauline epistles, give us reason to believe that these documents came from honest eyewitness sources, people “in the know” about the events they relate. Supported by careful research yet accessibly written, Hidden in Plain View provides solid evidence that all Christians can use to defend the Scriptures and the truth of Christianity. https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Plain-View-Undesigned-Coincidences/dp/1936341905/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488246896&sr=8-1&keywords=hidden+in+plain+view+undesigned+coincidences+in+the+gospels+and+acts Undesigned Coincidences http://calumsblog.com/undesigned-coincidences/ Feeding of the 5000 - "Undesigned Coincidences" - Peter Williams - 40 minute mark - Bible: Fact or Fiction? Peter Williams at UNC https://youtu.be/zTtdBpMMAFM?t=2415
bornagain77
May 2, 2021
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BA77
Paige, and I am just as certain that, if you spent just a little more time googling, you will also find a scholarly response to everyone of those supposed inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the Bible.
Yes, I am sure I would. But the question to ask is, are the inaccuracies and inconsistencies that are there for all to see more or less compelling than the twisting and gyrations used by the “scholars” to rationalize their explanations? And, why are these explanations necessary? I am comfortable with the inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the Bible. They don’t make it any less valuable as a guide in how to lead one’s life. What I am curious about, however, is why some people have the need for it to be a completely accurate depiction of what happened. Only 24% of Christians believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and that doesn’t make them any less Christian, or the Bible any less powerful.paige
May 2, 2021
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Paige, and I am just as certain that, if you spent just a little more time googling, you will also find a scholarly response to everyone of those supposed inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the Bible. For instance, Inspiring Philosophy has devoted much time to refuting, in detail, many such claims of supposed Biblical errors and contradictions:
Bible Errors refuted: - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVR0jXxJDn0&list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TVnj0QVWnMTMzmpvuFqCpIv Bible Contradictions refuted: - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWq3fVQuSuA&list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TXRZs52bpnVfiPM9TD_Ukfo
Moreover, the fact that the Bible was written by numerous authors and yet remains unified as a whole in its message is actually an argument that strongly argues for the Bible's authenticity.
Among all the books ever written, the Bible is absolutely unique. Actually, it is not just a book—it’s 66 books. And one of its most remarkable qualities is the complete unity of the overall message despite having so many different authors writing over many centuries on hundreds of controversial subjects. Natural explanations fail to account for the supernatural character and origin of Scripture. The Bible was written over a period of roughly 2,000 years by 40 different authors from three continents, who wrote in three different languages. These facts alone make the Bible one of a kind, but there are many more amazing details that defy natural explanation. Shepherds, kings, scholars, fishermen, prophets, a military general, a cupbearer, and a priest all penned portions of Scripture. They had different immediate purposes for writing, whether recording history, giving spiritual and moral instruction, or pronouncing judgment. They composed their works from palaces, prisons, the wilderness, and places of exile while writing history, laws, poetry, prophecy, and proverbs. In the process they laid bare their personal emotions, expressing anger, frustration, joy, and love. Yet despite this marvelous array of topics and goals, the Bible displays a flawless internal consistency. It never contradicts itself or its common theme. https://answersingenesis.org/the-word-of-god/3-unity-of-the-bible/
bornagain77
May 2, 2021
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BA77
Paige claims the Bible is not historically accurate Yet, the Bible has, time and time again, been proven to be historically accurate.
Ten seconds on Google turned up an article on the inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the Bible. https://www.news24.com/news24/MyNews24/The-Problem-of-the-Bible-Inaccuracies-contradictions-fallacies-scientific-issues-and-more-20120517 But the inaccuracies and inconsistencies do not bother me. The Bible is a compilation of writings and accounts from many different people. Given the nature of eyewitness testimony, it would be almost a certainty that there would be some errors.paige
May 2, 2021
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What kind of choice is "Love me or suffer eternal torment" anyway? I mean, talk about being under duress! What kind of love can even be offered in that situation? Who would even WANT someone's love if you have to threaten "eternal torment" to acquire it? The Christian God, that's who.William J Murray
May 2, 2021
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AC asks:
The atoms of my body will be torn apart, when I fall into a black hole. So again the question: How is that relevant to the soul?? What does a block hole have to do with hell??
Black holes are literally bottomless holes that are punched into the space time fabric of this universe. Such was inconceivable in physics up until a few decades ago. And still today, there is some debate about them. But the Bible 'predicted' a 'bottomless pit', that is closely associated with hell, long before such things were discovered by modern science.
King James Version - Bible Verse List: - The Bottomless Pit https://www.billkochman.com/VerseLists/verse280.html
That should, at least, raise an eyebrow.bornagain77
May 2, 2021
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Refusing to accept that you have only two choices is not the same thing as choosing one or the other. Nobody is going to choose eternal torment; they may choose not to believe in it, or to not believe in a God that set it up; but that is not the same thing as choosing eternal torment. Especially not under duress.William J Murray
May 2, 2021
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KF@231, If I was not consulted on whether or not I wanted to be involved in any of this, then regardless of what wording or temperament is employed, I was forced into this situation by God. Calling something forced on me without my consent "a gift" is exactly what people suffering under abuse would say. Every choice I make here under that paradigm is under duress, and I should not be held accountable for anything I decide to do here.William J Murray
May 2, 2021
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AC asks "It makes me happy that everyone here will experience those gloriously wonderful things. Why would anyone choose not to (accept God)??" You have to ask the atheists here on UD whom refuse to accept God despite abundant evidence for His existence. I have no clue. I can't fathom what would motivate such irrationally hostility towards God. And I have lost people who were very dear to me throughout my life. But, even though I have been angry at God at such times, and had to work through that, I never thought once of just outright denying his existence altogether. Its unfathomable to me.bornagain77
May 2, 2021
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Paige claims the Bible is not historically accurate Yet, the Bible has, time and time again, been proven to be historically accurate. For example, one archeologist, not too many years back, discovered King David's palace solely by following subtle clues that she found in the Bible. Humorously, a Bible skeptic thought it unfair for her to use the Bible as a guide in her archeological discovery of King David’s palace since, according to him, “she would certainly find that building”,,,::
Ronny Reich of Haifa University treats archaeologist Eilat Mazar of the Hebrew University “dismissively” and accuses her of acting “unethically.” What did she do? She used the Bible as a guide to where to excavate. Let me unpack this: As Eilat read the Bible, it seemed to indicate just where King David’s palace might be buried in the City of David—at least, it did to her. On this basis, she decided to dig there. This was highly improper and unscientific, according to Ronny. When he heard that Eilat was using reasoning like this to find King David’s palace, he knew immediately that, proceeding in this way, “she would certainly find that building” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/materialism-vs-science-in-archaeology-and-the-difference-it-makes/
Supplemental notes:
Has the Exodus Really Been Disproven? Excerpt: Many archaeologists, Bible scholars and historians continue to conclude from the evidence that the Exodus did indeed occur, among them the editor of Biblical Archaeology Review, Hershel Shanks (Ha'aretz Magazine, Nov. 5, 1999). http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/comments/Exodus.htm Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition James K. Hoffmeier ABSTRACT Scholars of the Hebrew Bible have in the last decade begun to question the historical accuracy of the Israelite sojourn in Egypt, as described in the book of Exodus. The reason for the rejection of the exodus tradition is said to be the lack of historical and archaeological evidence in Egypt. Those advancing these claims, however, are not specialists in the study of Egyptian history, culture, and archaeology. This book examines the most current Egyptological evidence and argues that it supports the biblical record concerning Israel in Egypt. https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195130881.001.0001/acprof-9780195130881 Steve Schrader - Historical Reliability of the Bible - video (extra-biblical proof of exodus plagues at 22:30 minute mark) http://vimeo.com/15742096 Q&A: The Bible and Archaeology (Conversation with Joel Kramer) - Sodom and Gomorrah - 11:22 min. mark https://youtu.be/ZqTjpCrsGFE?t=682 A Closer Look: The Historical Reliability of the Old Testament – 2012 The historicity of the OT should be taken seriously. As for the OT text itself, the Dead Sea Scrolls (ca 150 b.c.- a.d. 70) provide good evidence of a carefully transmitted core-text tradition through almost a thousand years down to the Masoretic scribes (ca eighth-tenth centuries a.d.) Thus, the basic text of OT Scripture can be established as essentially soundly transmitted, and the evidence shows that the form and content of the OT fit with known literary and cultural realities of the Ancient Near East. per Christianity Today The Gospels as History: External Evidence - Dr. Timothy McGrew - video https://vimeo.com/58486762 The Gospels as History: Internal Evidence - Dr. Timothy McGrew - video https://vimeo.com/59012954 video - Unexpected Evidence that the Bible is Historically Accurate (Dr. Lydia McGrew) – Feb. 2020 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO7x9p70rrw
bornagain77
May 2, 2021
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@bornagain77:
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Your description doesn't include atheists. Atheists are exactly those people who do not clearly see your god's "invisible" (??) qualities. That's exactly where the unbelief comes from.
In fact, I hold that Atheists here on UD in particular, much moreso than any other atheists, have been given ample opportunity to ‘choose’ God.
Whether you or some participant on UD gives someone this choice is completely irrelevant. You're neither god nor his spokesperson. The choice does not depend on a human's fallible persuasion techniques. The choice comes from god.
We can’t even imagine what gloriously wonderful things await us if we accept God into our lives
It makes me happy that everyone here will experience those gloriously wonderful things. Why would anyone choose not to??AndyClue
May 2, 2021
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KF
Paige, NT scholarship has identified a cluster of creedal statements and/or hymns that are quoted in the NT documents, which reflect not the voice of an individual but that of the community.
What qualifies someone to be a biblical scholar? There are hundreds of people who have studied the Bible and found it to be inconsistent with historical facts, in internally contradictory. Somehow I suspect that you would not consider them to be credible biblical scholars. The Bible is an amazing document with many valuable teachings, as are documents of other religions. But that doesn’t mean that everything written in it is gospel. :)paige
May 2, 2021
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Andy Clue states:
No atheist here has been given this choice yet. Evidenced by the fact, that they are still atheists.
the Bible begs to differ,
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
In fact, I hold that Atheists here on UD in particular, much moreso than any other atheists, have been given ample opportunity to 'choose' God. They have literally been spoon fed evidence for God's amazing handiwork throughout all of creation and yet they still stubbornly refuse the 'choose' to believe in God. Indeed, so bad is their bias apparent against God, that they hold to the totally insane counterargument that completely unguided naturalistic processes generated everything around us. For example, who in their right mind could deny that God is, by far, the best explanation for the human brain rather than unguided material processes? Yet atheists here on UD still 'choose' not to honestly admit that God is, by far, the best explanation for our 'beyond belief' human brain.
The Human Brain Is 'Beyond Belief' by Jeffrey P. Tomkins, Ph.D. * - 2017 Excerpt: The human brain,, is an engineering marvel that evokes comments from researchers like “beyond anything they’d imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief”1 and “a world we had never imagined.”2,,, Perfect Optimization The scientists found that at multiple hierarchical levels in the whole brain, nerve cell clusters (ganglion), and even at the individual cell level, the positioning of neural units achieved a goal that human engineers strive for but find difficult to achieve—the perfect minimizing of connection costs among all the system’s components.,,, Vast Computational Power Researchers discovered that a single synapse is like a computer’s microprocessor containing both memory-storage and information-processing features.,,, Just one synapse alone can contain about 1,000 molecular-scale microprocessor units acting in a quantum computing environment. An average healthy human brain contains some 200 billion nerve cells connected to one another through hundreds of trillions of synapses. To put this in perspective, one of the researchers revealed that the study’s results showed a single human brain has more information processing units than all the computers, routers, and Internet connections on Earth.1,,, Phenomenal Processing Speed the processing speed of the brain had been greatly underrated. In a new research study, scientists found the brain is 10 times more active than previously believed.6,7,,, The large number of dendritic spikes also means the brain has more than 100 times the computational capabilities than was previously believed.,,, Petabyte-Level Memory Capacity Our new measurements of the brain’s memory capacity increase conservative estimates by a factor of 10 to at least a petabyte, in the same ballpark as the World Wide Web.9,,, Optimal Energy Efficiency Stanford scientist who is helping develop computer brains for robots calculated that a computer processor functioning with the computational capacity of the human brain would require at least 10 megawatts to operate properly. This is comparable to the output of a small hydroelectric power plant. As amazing as it may seem, the human brain requires only about 10 watts to function.11 ,,, Multidimensional Processing It is as if the brain reacts to a stimulus by building then razing a tower of multi-dimensional blocks, starting with rods (1D), then planks (2D), then cubes (3D), and then more complex geometries with 4D, 5D, etc. The progression of activity through the brain resembles a multi-dimensional sandcastle that materializes out of the sand and then disintegrates.13 He also said: We found a world that we had never imagined. There are tens of millions of these objects even in a small speck of the brain, up through seven dimensions. In some networks, we even found structures with up to eleven dimensions.13,,, Biophoton Brain Communication Neurons contain many light-sensitive molecules such as porphyrin rings, flavinic, pyridinic rings, lipid chromophores, and aromatic amino acids. Even the mitochondria machines that produce energy inside cells contain several different light-responsive molecules called chromophores. This research suggests that light channeled by filamentous cellular structures called microtubules plays an important role in helping to coordinate activities in different regions of the brain.,,, https://www.icr.org/article/10186
So atheists here on UD have been given ample opportunities to believe in God, but for whatever severely misguided reason, and/or whatever deceptions about God they may harbor in their imaginations, they continually, and stubbornly, refuse, via their own volition, to accept that God is real, much less accept God into their personal lives. It truly is sad, even tragic. We can't even imagine what gloriously wonderful things await us if we accept God into our lives:
1 Corinthians 2:9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—
bornagain77
May 2, 2021
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WJM, while this thread is from OP on the puddle argument, it seems there have been a lot of exchanges on theology and philosophy, which requires a lot of background to be properly balanced. I just note a remark above "God forces me into existence, forces free will on me, forces me into that system by causing me to be born into the family, culture and time period of His choosing." On fair comment, this seems to be more about rhetorical traction pivoting on loaded language than substance. That God as creator creates implies that creation does not pre-exist itself to act before it exists. The gift of freedom enables reasoning, knowledge, love, virtue. That one is influenced by one's background and that one is procreated by parents work as an enabling not a violation. Some re-thinking through a less acid perspective seems to be in order. KFkairosfocus
May 2, 2021
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@bornagain77:
Hmm, I seem to recall something in Revelation about a there being a ‘bottomless pit’.
The atoms of my body will be torn apart, when I fall into a black hole. So again the question: How is that relevant to the soul?? What does a block hole have to do with hell??
And God is the source of all that hell on earth how exactly?
Who said he was? I didn't.
And yet, again, as atheists here on UD give abundant evidence to, people freely choose to be separated from God all the time. And thus choose to be separated from all that is good.
No atheist here has been given this choice yet. Evidenced by the fact, that they are still atheists.AndyClue
May 2, 2021
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That does not leave many options for God. He can either send them to a place that is totally devoid of all His perfect and good attributes, i.e. Hell, or he can completely annihilate their souls.
Why are those God's only options?William J Murray
May 2, 2021
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Andy Clue states:
BA77: All I can say for sure, not being an expert in Biblical exegesis, is that as far as physics can tell me from general relativity, there is definitely a infinitely destructive “hellish” element to reality. They are called Black Holes: AC: How are black holes relevant for souls?
Hmm, I seem to recall something in Revelation about a there being a 'bottomless pit'.
AC: Why not mention the already existing hell on earth? – Being mentally and physically abused as a child – Being burnt alive by ISIS – Being a slave in an North Korean concentration camp – …
And God is the source of all that hell on earth how exactly? All those 'hells' on earth that you mention were brought about be men and are noted by the marked absence of God in those situations.
“What Hitler did not believe and what Stalin did not believe and what Mao did not believe and what the SS did not believe and what the Gestapo did not believe and what the NKVD did not believe and what the commissars, functionaries, swaggering executioners, Nazi doctors, Communist Party theoreticians, intellectuals, Brown Shirts, Black Shirts, gauleiters, and a thousand party hacks did not believe was that God was watching what they were doing. And as far as we can tell, very few of those carrying out the horrors of the twentieth century worried overmuch that God was watching what they were doing either. That is, after all, the meaning of a secular society.” - David Berlinski, The Devil's Delusion: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions
The fact is that, the more people choose to be separated from God, the more 'hell on earth' happens:
‘Men Have Forgotten God’: Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s 1983 Templeton Address By ALEKSANDR SOLZHENITSYN - December 11, 2018 More than half a century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of older people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: “Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened.” Since then I have spent well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our Revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous Revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: “Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened.” https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/12/aleksandr-solzhenitsyn-men-have-forgotten-god-speech/ Atheism’s Body Count * It is obvious that Atheism cannot be true; for if it were, it would produce a more humane world, since it values only this life and is not swayed by the foolish beliefs of primitive superstitions and religions. However, the opposite proves to be true. Rather than providing the utopia of idealism, it has produced a body count second to none. With recent documents uncovered for the Maoist and Stalinist regimes, it now seems the high end of estimates of 250 million dead (between 1900-1987) are closer to the mark. The Stalinist Purges produced 61 million dead and Mao’s Cultural Revolution produced 70 million casualties. These murders are all upon their own people! This number does not include the countless dead in their wars of outward aggression waged in the name of the purity of atheism’s world view. China invades its peaceful, but religious neighbor, Tibet; supports N. Korea in its war against its southern neighbor and in its merciless oppression of its own people; and Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge kill up to 6 million with Chinese support. All of these actions done “in the name of the people” to create a better world. - Atheism’s Tendency Towards Totalitarianism Rather Than Freedom What is so strange and odd that in spite of their outward rejection of religion and all its superstitions, they feel compelled to set up cults of personality and worship of the State and its leaders that is so totalitarian that the leaders are not satisfied with mere outward obedience; rather they insist on total mind control and control of thoughts, ideas and beliefs. They institute Gulags and “re-education” centers to indoctrinate anyone who even would dare question any action or declaration of the “Dear Leader.” Even the Spanish Inquisition cannot compare to the ruthlessness and methodical efficiency of these programs conducted on so massive a scale. While proclaiming freedom to the masses, they institute the most methodical efforts to completely eliminate freedom from the people, and they do so all “on behalf” of the proletariat. A completely ordered and totally unfree totalitarian State is routinely set up in place of religion, because it is obviously so profoundly better society. It is also strange that Stalin was a seminarian who rejected Christianity and went on to set up himself as an object of worship. It seems that impulse to religious devotion is present in all, whether that be in traditional forms or secular inventions. https://www.scholarscorner.com/atheisms-body-count-ideology-and-human-suffering/ Hitler, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao – quotes - Foundational Darwinian influence in their ideology July 2020 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/michael-egnor-on-the-relationship-between-darwinism-and-totalitarianism/#comment-707831
AC then states: "Who would choose freely such a torture? No-one. That’s why no-one is in hell." And yet, again, as atheists here on UD give abundant evidence to, people freely choose to be separated from God all the time. And thus choose to be separated from all that is good. That does not leave many options for God. He can either send them to a place that is totally devoid of all His perfect and good attributes, i.e. Hell, or he can completely annihilate their souls. (And there is apparently a healthy debate within Christianity as to if 'annihilationism' or eternal torment is true.) ( And myself, as I have already noted, don't like either of those options and choose Jesus instead. The choice is not even close).
John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
bornagain77
May 2, 2021
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Karen McMannus states,
BA77: "funny that you repeatedly call Christians mentally il" KM: "Um no, not all Christians, just your kind."
It is interesting to note that KM did not respond to the scientific fact that the scientific evidence itself contradicts Karen's personal subjective opinion, and indicates Christians are doing quite well mentally and physically, especially when compared to atheists, but that KM instead responded with a blatantly Ad Hominem attack against 'my kind' of Christians. Whatever that is suppose to mean. Ad Hominem is one of the most common logical fallacies around. In fact it is number 1 on the following list of 10 common logical fallacies, (And is also the number 1 reason why people get banned from UD).
1. Ad Hominem Fallacy https://kreativcopywriting.com/10-logical-fallacies-know-spot/
I also note that KM did not respond to the rest of my post where I noted that people, via their own volition, are choosing, indeed demanding, to be separated from God. As many Darwinian atheists on this very site give abundant witness to, some people simply do not want God in their lives ever. Period! As CS Lewis noted, God will give them their wish. You cannot force someone to love you. That simply is not how love works. The problem for atheists is that God is the ultimate source of all that is good and beautiful in this world. Thus, to be separated from God is to, in reality, be separated from all that is good and beautiful. The logic is straight forward and obvious. Of related note, "The argument from Beauty" for God's existence is one of my favorite arguments for God's existence.
Beauty and the Imagination - Aaron Ames - July 16th, 2017 Excerpt: Beauty… can be appreciated only by the mind. This would be impossible, if this ‘idea’ of beauty were not found in the Mind in a more perfect form…. This consideration has readily persuaded men of ability and learning… that the original “idea” is not to be found in this sphere (Augustine, City of God). https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2017/07/beauty-imagination-aaron-ames.html The Reason Why God Is the Beauty We All Seek - Sept. 4, 2019 Excerpt: God loves beauty. As Thomas Aquinas asserts, God “is beauty itself”[1] St. Anselm argues that “God must be the supreme beauty for the same reasons that He must be justice and other such qualities.”[2] As the contemporary theologian Michael Horton so aptly states in his book The Christian Faith, “God would not be God if he did not possess all his attributes in the simplicity and perfection of his essence.”[3] The reason why we gravitate toward beauty is because God created us in his image.,,, In a chapel sermon titled, “Can Beauty Save the World,” Albert Mohler explains, "The Christian worldview posits that anything pure and good finds its ultimate source in the self-existent, omnipotent God who is infinite in all his perfections. Thus the Christian worldview reminds us that the “transcendentals”—the good, the true, and the beautiful—are inseparable. Thus when Psalm 27 speaks of the beauty of the Lord, the Psalmist is also making a claim about the goodness of the Lord and the truthfulness of the Lord. While we distinguish God’s attributes from one another in order to understand them better, we must also recognize that these attributes are inseparable from one another.[19]" Mohler goes on to state, “Our job as Christians is to remember the difference between the beautiful and the pretty,” because pure beauty is found in goodness and truth.[20] When we gaze upon ascetically pleasing objects or witness kind deeds in this world, we are at best seeing imperfect versions of the pure beauty that can only be found in God. https://www.beautifulchristianlife.com/blog/reason-why-god-is-the-beauty-we-all-seek
bornagain77
May 2, 2021
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Again, God does NOT send people to hell. People, by their own volition, choose to separate themselves from God and to therefore separate themselves from all that is good.
So, out of infinite existential system possibilities, God selects one and excludes all others; God forces me into existence, forces free will on me, forces me into that system by causing me to be born into the family, culture and time period of His choosing; God allows me an insignificantly tiny (relative to the eternal consequences) but unknown length of time, then in some way "informs" me (let's assume arguendo) at some point in that tiny time-frame that I have two options in that system: one leads to wonderful consequences, the other leads to horrible consequences, both eternal. Yet, BA77 characterizes the people who wind up in hell (or extinguished from existence) as having, effectively, "made their own choice." This is a classic abusive relationship where the victim has convinced themselves that they are at fault for that which is forced on them by their abuser. "It was my own fault, he was very clear what would happen if I didn't do what pleased him, what he requires for me to show him that I love him. He does these things because he loves me." Christianity has formalized a system of justifying this abusive system and call it, fittingly enough, "Apologetics." Repurposing a line by Bill Burr: I could wake up from a drunken stupor and come up with a less abusive existential arrangement than that.William J Murray
May 2, 2021
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HN42, you continue to turn up gems of thought:
[HN, 214:] From Anthropic Principle in “Simple Wikipedia” – “Douglas Adams explains this concept quite well using a puddle as an analogy.” … From Douglas Adams in Wikipedia – “. . . to demonstrate his view that the fine-tuned argument for God was a fallacy.” From Dawkins’ “Lament for Douglas Adams” – “To illustrate the vain conceit that the universe must be somehow preordained for us. . .”
These sources reflect a community voice of radical secularists who have dominated the online encyclopedia that by the reports on how often it is used, is a yardstick of common secularist thought. Where, of course, Dawkins has been dean of the so called new atheists. So, the puddle argument is a common misconception, a strawman fallacy used to discredit infrence on evident fine tuning. The fact that the thread above does not have anyone willing to argue its cogency speaks volumes on its want of substance. The attempts to distance from it speak for themselves. As for, oh, the fine tuning argument is about a claimed scientific inference to a cosmos prepared just for us or for us, that is readily seen to be a strawman caricature. To start, the issue is an exploration of cosmology [as in astrophysical studies turning on General Relativity, with associated use of Tensor Mathematics and discussion pivoting on the observer equivalence of gravity and accelerated motion] and the first key fine tuning inference was about nucleosynthesis in stars and the abundance of C and O. There is a 4% resonance that promotes that. The key party, Sir Fred Hoyle, was a lifelong agnostic, not a likely candidate to be doing theology as such. The wider point is that dozens of parameters and the frame of laws are such that we find our observed cosmos at a locally deeply isolated island of function in the parameter space, setting the atomic and astrophysical basis for c-chem, aqueous medium cell based life on terrestrial planets in galactic habitable zones. Further, the sol system seems to be a rare case given 20+ years of exoplanet research and there is a further pattern that the life permitting island of function is also conducive to astrophysical observations. These are empirically based explorations, manifestly. Just, they have a surprising result that would be equally interesting for keepers of things large and small among Kzinti, Grey or Green men, Treecats and the like. KF PS: Sir Fred in his own voice, for reference. Notice, how he phrases his conclusion, as sharply distinct from puddle analogy strawman caricatures:
A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has "monkeyed" with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.
In context, at Caltech, c 40 years ago, in a well known remark:
>>[Sir Fred Hoyle, In a talk at Caltech c 1981 (nb. this longstanding UD post):] From 1953 onward, Willy Fowler and I have always been intrigued by the remarkable relation of the 7.65 MeV energy level in the nucleus of 12 C to the 7.12 MeV level in 16 O. If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just where these levels are actually found to be. Another put-up job? . . . I am inclined to think so. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has "monkeyed" with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. [F. Hoyle, Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20 (1982): 16.]>> . . . also, in the same talk at Caltech: >>The big problem in biology, as I see it, is to understand the origin of the information carried by the explicit structures of biomolecules. The issue isn't so much the rather crude fact that a protein consists of a chain of amino acids linked together in a certain way, but that the explicit ordering of the amino acids endows the chain with remarkable properties, which other orderings wouldn't give. The case of the enzymes is well known . . . If amino acids were linked at random, there would be a vast number of arrange-ments that would be useless in serving the pur-poses of a living cell. When you consider that a typical enzyme has a chain of perhaps 200 links and that there are 20 possibilities for each link,it's easy to see that the number of useless arrangements is enormous, more than the number of atoms in all the galaxies visible in the largest telescopes. [ --> 20^200 = 1.6 * 10^260] This is for one enzyme, and there are upwards of 2000 of them, mainly serving very different purposes. So how did the situation get to where we find it to be? This is, as I see it, the biological problem - the information problem . . . . I was constantly plagued by the thought that the number of ways in which even a single enzyme could be wrongly constructed was greater than the number of all the atoms in the universe. So try as I would, I couldn't convince myself that even the whole universe would be sufficient to find life by random processes - by what are called the blind forces of nature . . . . By far the simplest way to arrive at the correct sequences of amino acids in the enzymes would be by thought, not by random processes . . . . Now imagine yourself as a superintellect working through possibilities in polymer chemistry. Would you not be astonished that polymers based on the carbon atom turned out in your calculations to have the remarkable properties of the enzymes and other biomolecules? Would you not be bowled over in surprise to find that a living cell was a feasible construct? Would you not say to yourself, in whatever language supercalculating intellects use: Some supercalculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. Of course you would, and if you were a sensible superintellect you would conclude that the carbon atom is a fix. >> . . . and again: >> I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the [--> nuclear synthesis] consequences they produce within stars. ["The Universe: Past and Present Reflections." Engineering and Science, November, 1981. pp. 8–12]>>
kairosfocus
May 2, 2021
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Viola @217 I'm a big fan of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. I'm still trying to master the technique of flight that Adams describes. You have to throw yourself at the ground and miss. But you can't miss on purpose because that's not really missing. You have to miss by accident. One thing that made it hard to answer your question is that although there are satirical elements in Adams' work it's basically a very high form of comedy. If it's all satire then it's very abstruse indeed.hnorman42
May 2, 2021
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Paige, NT scholarship has identified a cluster of creedal statements and/or hymns that are quoted in the NT documents, which reflect not the voice of an individual but that of the community. 1 Cor 15 has one of them, and Paul introduces his citation with a formula that indicates solemn citation. Notice, for example the use of the Aramaic form of the name Jesus gave to Peter [Greek form, anglicised], Cephas, rock. We can draw a rough parallel to the US DoI, 1776. This is not Jefferson or even the drafting committee, it is the founding circle. We have in the 55 AD letter, citation of the official testimony of the 500, with particular emphasis on the leading public witnesses, about 20, who can be identified specifically; the circumstances indicate that Paul acquired the materials by c 35 - 38 AD, and suggest even earlier composition of the solemn summary, perhaps by 32 - 33 AD, on the likely understanding that the crucifixion was Spring 30 AD. We must recognise as well a context of appeal to the prophetic element of the OT, a key point that implies that the concept of Messiah and the substance of the gospel are to be understood theologically as eschatological, cf. esp Isa 52:13 - 53:12, c 700+ BC, which is a key to C1 NT theology and to the Christian view on the Hebraic Scriptures. Of course, it is God who can accurately predict the far future. Notice, too, that while the gospels show that the first witnesses on the timeline were women seeking to further honour the body of yet another murdered prophet of Israel, the summary implicitly recognises the attitude of C1 to the testimony of women and probably also seeks to shield them. The common attempt by objectors to dismiss the record as univocal and dubious is deeply ill informed. KFkairosfocus
May 2, 2021
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Karen McMannus Sandy: Um no, if evolution is random and unguided there is no such thing like mentally ill. Who’s talking about unguided evolution?
You.
AndyClueMay 2, 2021 at 1:44 am @bornagain77: All I can say for sure, not being an expert in Biblical exegesis, is that as far as physics can tell me from general relativity, there is definitely a infinitely destructive “hellish” element to reality. They are called Black Holes: How are black holes relevant for souls? Why not mention the already existing hell on earth? – Being mentally and physically abused as a child – Being burnt alive by ISIS – Being a slave in an North Korean concentration camp – … Who would choose freely such a torture? No-one. That’s why no-one is in hell.
What really means the temporary suffering in this world if there is no death of soul ?Sandy
May 2, 2021
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@bornagain77:
All I can say for sure, not being an expert in Biblical exegesis, is that as far as physics can tell me from general relativity, there is definitely a infinitely destructive “hellish” element to reality. They are called Black Holes:
How are black holes relevant for souls? Why not mention the already existing hell on earth? - Being mentally and physically abused as a child - Being burnt alive by ISIS - Being a slave in an North Korean concentration camp - ... Who would choose freely such a torture? No-one. That's why no-one is in hell.AndyClue
May 2, 2021
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