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Hitler as a Darwinist?: Prof accused of academic dishonesty

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Recently, several people have generously devoted considerable time to padding the comments section of the Post-Darwinist on the question of whether Hitler was a creationist or a Darwinist. Now, one recent commenter, Mitchell Coffey, went over the top, accusing Cal State prof Richard Weikart, author of From Darwin to Hitler, of being dishonest.

Critiquing my position, he scolds, in part:

This is to be expected if you rely on the immorality of dishonest academics like Richard Weikart. Most of his assertions about Darwin’s beliefs are contradicted by the historical sources — often by the historical sources he himself cites for support! In one case, he out-and-out lies about what he calls Darwin’s “system.”

But if you want to see a straight-out lie by Prof. Weikart, locate his one quote from H.G. Wells. Weikart makes extravagant claims about the significance of the quote, which Weikart wants you to believe meant that Wells believed in killing off “inferior” races.

Weikart, who is fluent in German, replies,

Mitchell Coffey’s claim that I engaged in academic dishonesty is patently ridiculous.

I should note that my overall argument in no way depends on the Wells’ quotation, since the vast majority of my book is about German thinkers, and most of my quotations are from primary sources, unlike the Wells quote, which I provided to show that Germans weren’t the only ones advocating racial extermination. If anyone can show that my primary source quotations are wrenched out of context, this would be troubling indeed. To date, no one has raised such a criticism, despite many reviews by historians in historical journals.

(The question hinged on how to interpret another scholar’sview of Wells.)

To me, the really interesting aspect of this whole exchange is why it should matter so much to some people whether Hitler was a Darwinist, a creationist, or something else. After all, what if Pol Pot was a Darwinist and Idi Amin a creationist? Do we think the better or the worse of mass murderers on such an account? So I asked Weikart for some thoughts, as he deals frequently with such attacks.

His reply was interesting:

The reason why people care about Hitler being a Darwinist was because his version of Darwinism influenced his murderous ideology. It wasn’t incidental to his mass murder, as it might be in the other cases you mentioned. Darwinists have to distance themselves from his social Darwinist views, so they campaign against it as against heresy. Also, it’s remarkable how many websites run by atheists and anti-religious people prominently feature articles about Hitler being a Christian, and they blame Christianity for Hitler and the Holocaust.

It’s also remarkable that many Darwinists idolize Darwin so much that they cannot come to admit that he was a social Darwinist (though many scholars, to their credit, have conceded this).

Hmmm. I have often suggested that Darwinism would repay study by social scientists. It does come with a worldview, including a number of positions on hotly contested but apparently unrelated topics. For example, I would like to hear from a single serious Darwinist who disapproves of stem cell research on discarded human embryos on ethical grounds. It is easy to find non-Darwinists who disapprove such things.

Comments
Tribune7 post 47 Nothing in life is ever close to as simple as you make the chain from Darwin to Hitler sound. Also, since when is divine law absolute. It requires us to interpret it and different Christian religions interpret moral absolutes differently. Is one faith right and the believers of other faiths all apostates? You can say that killing your fellow man is a universally held wrong among Christians, but it also is among every other major religion and among secularists and atheists as well. If you get into the territory of whether or not homosexuality is a sin things get a bit murkier. You always will have fallible people making judgements on just what the moral absolutes are.jmcd
September 15, 2006
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This is Jesus. This isn't. If there are no questions about the difference I think I'm about done with this topic.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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DaveScot, my analysis was strictly limited to "man's law" as you say. I would have thought that was obvious.BarryA
September 15, 2006
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DaveScot wrote,If a person causes the death of other living things that person is a killer. It's not rocket science. There's no twisting of words. If you kill you're a killer. If a person can look at another warm blooded creature that is hurt or dying and not be struck by profound empathy for it then you're lacking in compassion.
What if one kills out of compassion, say to put an animal out of suffering? If that is moral, does it extend to humans? If not, why not?todd
September 15, 2006
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Without fail every time I point out that Christ wasn't into blood sports the pious Christians who dream about that next trophy buck even in church have a conniption fit. If you kill, you're a killer. If you enjoy it, you're an abomination in the eyes of God. That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but methinks the Christian deer slayers doth protest too much...DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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Carlos 26: As for Lysenko—Darwin-Shmarwin with a bit of Lamarck—all the same pseudo-science in my opinion—and given the ear of a Stalin there's no telling what today's Darwinists might have done to a Dr. Richard Sternberg—and as for John Dewey!?! Isn't he the father of the government monopoly that's destroyed the American school system? And the attachment to freedom by “the vast majority of Europeans”—one is not so sure these days (you might see https://www.discovery.org/a/3741/ and http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0906/glick091506.php3). Anyway if you still think Hume and Kant have coherent arguments against the design argument—and don't find Dembski convincing—there's little I can say--except that if biological organisms really were designed (which is a logical possibility) and we blind our eyes to this possibility for philosophical reasons . . . well of course we'd never find out, would we? To each his own . . . maybe we'd best just agree to disagree.Rude
September 15, 2006
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Well Barry, there's man's law and then there's God's law. If you think the messiah you worship would approve of cold blooded killers I'd have to say you're in denial and badly in need of some serious soul searching.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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Carlos writes: “So when Jefferson turned up his nose at the metaphysical parts, he was able to keep the ethical parts. (I'd be interested to hear what Barry has to say about this.)” As I understand his beliefs, Jefferson rejected the incarnation, the atonement and the resurrection. Ergo, he was not a “Christian” if one defines that term (as it has been defined for nearly 2,000 years) as one who affirms the great creeds of the faith. Was he a “Christian” in some other sense of the word? I don't know, and it is not a question that interests me.BarryA
September 15, 2006
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Animals have no rights in the legal sense. If one kills an animal in a humane way, one does not go to jail. The animal killer may have to respond civilly in damages to the animal's owner, but killing an animal is generally not a crime. The right to life subsumes all other rights. If one has no right to life, a fortiori, one has no other rights. You ask, if animals have no rights why do we have criminal laws preventing cruelty to animals? The answer is these laws protect of animals incidentally to the promotion of human morality.BarryA
September 15, 2006
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If a person causes the death of other living things that person is a killer. It's not rocket science. There's no twisting of words. If you kill you're a killer. If a person can look at another warm blooded creature that is hurt or dying and not be struck by profound empathy for it then you're lacking in compassion. There's no question about this either. You're cold hearted. If you cause the death of another warm blooded animal and don't feel profound remorse and wish you hadn't done it then you're a cold hearted killer. If the shoe fits, wear it. You know who you are.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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Lysenko as a Darwinist. http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/PoE/pe04hst2.htmlCharlie
September 15, 2006
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Quick quiz from Tribune7 in 47: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . ." Imagine writing that from a Darwinian perspective.Rude
September 15, 2006
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If you want to ID to remain censored you'd better hope you can continue to find sympathetic judges who will agree it is a violation of the establishment clause to even criticize chance worship dogma in public schools. Absent that, NDE is a dead duck. Ditto that, Dave.tribune7
September 15, 2006
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And the arguments that have been produced thus far really aren't very good. Says evolutionary dogmatists who treat evolution as a religious tenet rather than a possibility. Do you really think that it follows from natural selection that might makes right? How? Now you are completing a circle. Was Hitler a Darwinist? Yes, basically. Why did he do what the did? Because he felt it was right. Why did he feel it was right? Because he concluded that some types of men were no different than animals. Why did he do this? Because of the influence of Darwin, as has been established. How does natural selection justify "might makes right"? If the goal is to love God and neighbor, a particular series of actions is justified. If the goal is for the fittest to survive, a different set of actions is justified. The loss of moral absolutes does not entail moral anarchy The problem is not the "anarchy" but the absolutes imposed by the people with the guns. Quick quiz: Where do our rights come from?tribune7
September 15, 2006
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Way to go Dave Scott 43!! “You need to get out more. The whole country is talking about it. Every talk show, the president, governors, the paper boy… everybody.” Yeah, was at a scientific conference in August . . . in conversation everyone would bring up ID . . . with a number confessing that they'd like to kill the US President and all “fundamentalist Christians”. Yes, and even if they do “continue to find sympathetic judges who will agree it is a violation of the establishment clause to even criticize chance worship dogma in public schools” we still win. For if it takes the Gestapo to protect Darwin then we'll all know that “NDE is a dead duck.”Rude
September 15, 2006
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David von Kannon There is a remarkable coincidence between the texts which you find sacred and untainted by editorial excess and your personal preferences. My modus operandi is always to take the raw data, arrive at my own conclusions, then go see what conclusions others have reached. There is a remarkable coincidence in this case. It seems that your position is that if you dislike the consequences of the text, it must be a late emendation. Yes. Is it simply that you feel the G12 is a more authoritative text than Mark? Yes. Have you arrived at a conception of Christ from accepting a text, or did you have a pre-existing and personally arrived at conception of Christ that has affected which texts you will accept as personally relevant and sacred? The latter. I hope you don't take any personal offense by the question. I mean none. I know many Christians with entirely ahistorical systems of belief. None taken. I'm of the belief that what God wishes you to know is conveyed to you internally rather than delivered to you on paper by self-proclaimed prophets or their publishers. Everyone has the option of knowing the difference between right and wrong (you first have to want to know) and then choosing whether or not to do what's right after you've heard the answer (which comes from within). God doesn't need human scribes to speak for him. Why anyone would believe an omnipoent God can only deliver his messages through human intermediaries is beyond me - non sequitur city.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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Carlos: The problem is that intelligent design — the challenge to dogma which you happen to prefer — has not received the recognition you think it deserves. You need to get out more. The whole country is talking about it. Every talk show, the president, governors, the paper boy... everybody. The reason for this is that intelligent design hasn't yet produced what it would need to in order to get recognized. No, that's not right. It hasn't produced what it would need to divest chance worshippers of their holy dogma. I'm not sure anything at all could accomplish that - dogmatic faith being what it is. And the arguments that have been produced thus far really aren't very good. I'm unimpressed by your opinions thus far. This has been shown. Unilateral declarations of victory are so cute. Do you stand up and shout while making them? If you want ID to succeed, you'd better hope that it can produce something better than what it has so far. If you want to ID to remain censored you'd better hope you can continue to find sympathetic judges who will agree it is a violation of the establishment clause to even criticize chance worship dogma in public schools. Absent that, NDE is a dead duck.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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David vun Kannon: Does your question to Dave mean, by extention, that you force yourself to believe things which don't make sense to you because they are a part of the accepted canon? Or do you just happen to jibe with everything in the accepted canon, and so for you, orthodoxy presents no problems?tinabrewer
September 15, 2006
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If it were there would be positive excitement about challenges to it rather than numbing hostility. There is positive excitement about some challenges to it. The complexity theory work of Kauffman and Goodwin and others is really shaking things up! And there's no shortages of interesting and exciting debates among evolutionary theorists, as we've seen in another recent thread here. This is a very interesting time to be a biologist! We're very close to seeing the connections between development and paleontology! This is cool, man -- and very controversial! The problem is that intelligent design -- the challenge to dogma which you happen to prefer -- has not received the recognition you think it deserves. The reason for this is that intelligent design hasn't yet produced what it would need to in order to get recognized. And the arguments that have been produced thus far really aren't very good. This has been shown. If you want ID to succeed, you'd better hope that it can produce something better than what it has so far. It is a world view which reinforces an ethical system based on pragmaticism, and of course, as with any system of pragmaticism, what is pragmatic to the one who acquires the guns is not necessarily pragmatic to you. I'm sorry to come across so strong, but I find this absurd. Do you really think that it follows from natural selection that might makes right? How? Notice: it's one thing for people to believe that it follows. People believe all sorts of strange things. It's another thing for it to really follow. For another thing, none of the American pragmatists -- Peirce, James, or Dewey -- thought that "might makes right." The loss of moral absolutes does not entail moral anarchy or "it's all meaningless! aaahh!" For a nice quick intro in what pragmatist thinking does (and doesn't) do, I highly recommend The Abuse of Evil: The Corruption of Politics and Religion Since 9/11. You won't like it, and you'll find very little in there with which you can agree, but you'll also find, I think, that pragmatism is not what you think it is. Again, I'm sorry to come across so strong, but my dander is up!Carlos
September 15, 2006
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DaveScot, There is a remarkable coincidence between the texts which you find sacred and untainted by editorial excess and your personal preferences. It seems that your position is that if you dislike the consequences of the text, it must be a late emendation. Is it simply that you feel the G12 is a more authoritative text than Mark? Have you arrived at a conception of Christ from accepting a text, or did you have a pre-existing and personally arrived at conception of Christ that has affected which texts you will accept as personally relevant and sacred? I hope you don't take any personal offense by the question. I mean none. I know many Christians with entirely ahistorical systems of belief.David vun Kannon
September 15, 2006
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But Darwinism is not an ethical system. It's a scientific theory. Darwinism in not just a scientific theory. If it were there would be positive excitement about challenges to it rather than numbing hostility. It is a world view which reinforces an ethical system based on pragmaticism, and of course, as with any system of pragmaticism, what is pragmatic to the one who acquires the guns is not necessarily pragmatic to you.tribune7
September 15, 2006
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You can make the case that the evidence that Jefferson was a Christian was weak, but it is inarguable that Jefferson was admired and was greatly influenced by Jesus and his teachings. Granted. (Though the Jefferson Bible is a very short book.) Hitler may have had his own spin on Darwinism and evolution but he breathed its zeitgeist and accepted its guidance on many major points, as did Stalin. Here's where the analogy breaks down: Christianity is an ethical and metaphysical system; it's action-guiding from the get-go. So when Jefferson turned up his nose at the metaphysical parts, he was able to keep the ethical parts. (I'd be interested to hear what Barry has to say about this.) But Darwinism is not an ethical system. It's a scientific theory. It does not and cannot tell us what to do. The whole idea of an "evolutionary ethics" is a mirage. (The latest attempt at evolutionary ethics, Moral Minds by Marc Hauser, was nicely demolished by Richard Rorty in the NY Times.) So if Hitler, or anyone, thinks that they can get ethical guidance from a scientific theory -- whether it be Darwin's or Einstein's -- they've made a serious mistake. On the other hand, some scientific theories -- such as Newton's, Darwin's, or Einstein's -- have metaphysical implications. But even that doesn't affect the ethics, unless one thinks that the ethics and metaphysics stand or fall together. As Jefferson shows, they do not.Carlos
September 15, 2006
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About Stalin, in an authorized biography he said reading Darwin that cause him to become an atheist as a teenager. The doesn't necessarily mean he continued to accept the science or if he even understood the science or came to feel that science should take a back seat to political manipulation.tribune7
September 15, 2006
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Not that I want to get bogged down in Biblical exegesis, but there's one point worth making. In Genesis 9: 2-5, God commands Noah that he may eat meat, but not with the blood in it. Most commentators take this to mean that, before the Flood, people were vegetarians, and that this is a rule change. But seeing this in light of Genesis 2, it seems that (a) animals were created as companions for humanity, only none of them worked out and (b) even after the exile or "fall," the don't-eat-the-animals rule stayed in effect. Presumably, if the coming of the Messiah means a return to an Edenic state, that would include vegetarianism. Although it would also include nudity. Maybe not such a good argument after all?Carlos
September 15, 2006
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Carlos, Firstly, I think the evidence for “Hitler is a Darwinist” still seems pretty weak. You can make the case that the evidence that Jefferson was a Christian was weak, but it is inarguable that Jefferson was admired and was greatly influence by Jesus and his teachings. Hiter may have had his own spin on Darwinism and evolution but he breathed its zeitgeist and accepted its guidance on many major points, as did Stalin.tribune7
September 15, 2006
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\"throwing out much of what he said\" Let us clarify that. Much of what he PURPORTEDLY said. And yeah, I do throw it out. I do not believe he said it. Your claim that I am making an argument from outrage is itself a straw man fallacy since I quoted from the Gospel of the Holy Twelve in support of what I wrote as well as several passages from the old testament which you also conveniently ignored. DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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26: If Stalin were a "stauch Darwinist," I very much doubt he would have given Lysenko the power and control that he did. yet freedom loving ordinary folk have always found Darwin rather stupid. Therefore, those who do not find Darwin stupid do not love freedom. For example, Woodrow Wilson. Or John Dewey. Or the vast majority of Europeans. Yep, those Europeans sure do hate freedom a whole lot. Uh huh. the decisions must be made at the grass roots where a system of liberty lets the Intelligent be responsible for the Design. And yet, mathematical models show that intelligence is not required for the sorts of patterns seen in economies. (See here.) John Allen Paulos wrongly thinks that “the argument from design . . . dates from the 18th century” and that it “has been decisively refuted”—but he doesn't bother telling us how because “Those who reject evolution are usually immune to such arguments.” It is not wrong that the argument from design dates from the 18th century. And the decisive refutation is in Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion. I know, I know, Dembski has a chapter on Hume in The Design Revolution. I've read it. But I'm not sold on the criticism of Hume. And even if I were, there is still the problem of Kant's "critique of teleological judgment" in the Critique of Judgment.Carlos
September 15, 2006
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I know of no strain of Christianity that holds to the idea that animals have no rights. Animals here for our purpose is one thing, them having no rights isn't the same thing. I'd think most people on earth, being meat eaters for the most part, believe animals are here for our use- whether they're religious or atheists. The argument from outrage against Christ, because he doesn't fit your own ideal version of him doesn't work out too well. Arguments from outrage hardly ever do. To claim he was some card-carrying PETA member would mean throwing out much of what he said, the miracles of the fish, the miracle of walking on water while the others fished, that his apostles were fisherman, the OT laws in regard to what meat could and could not be eaten, etc. Basically, to make the claim, you have to throw out both OT and NT and stick with your ideal version of a Christ that makes you feel warm and fuzzy. I'm not sure, but it seemed as if you were saying the majority view of Christians somehow also lead to Hitler, because of their view that animals are here for men to use. I hope that isn't what you were saying. It sounded that way, though.JasonTheGreek
September 15, 2006
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DaveScot, One interesting note to add to your thoughts are the lives of Saint Francis and Saint Ciardan (Irish saint pre-dating St. Patrick). They were amazing lovers of animals, and always treated them with respect and dignity. And the animals had an uncannny sense of their peaceful spirit, and even those from the most wild species (with their genes not even tranposed!!) would approach them. Of course, you may scoff at this notion, and that is your free will choice to do so (if you believe in free will!). However, regarding the wild wolf that Saint Francis tamed -- his skull is preserved in a small town in Italy to this very day. There's empirical evidence for you!!Ekstasis
September 15, 2006
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Carlos But there are interesting parallels between a Smithian account of markets and a Darwinian account of nature. Of course there are and our language is replete with commonly used phrases attesting to the nature of capitalist culture: "it's a jungle out there", "the corporate jungle", "clawing your way to the top", "dog eat dog", and "top of the food chain" to name just a few that come immediately to mind.DaveScot
September 15, 2006
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