Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

How does the actor act?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Although ID continues to gather supporters, it happens now and again that erstwhile ID supporters lose their enthusiasm and jump ship. One such former supporter is a very prominent European scientist. I met him first in 2004, when he was still attracted to ID. Now he is no longer. I asked him about this recently:

Question: If not ID, what then? The Darwinists are bankrupt. And the self-organizational theorists are hopelessly fuzzy. James Shapiro — he presupposes the very thing that needs to be explained, namely, the origin of systems that perform their own “natural genetic engineering.” Kirschner and Gerhardt are no better with their “facilitated variation” — whence the facilitation?

He responded:

Excellent question of course. So the search continues… [sic] As for ID, more fundamental work on the practicality of design detection is crucial — and your strength. But in the end, ID will only fly if a more concrete story can be told about the mechanism of design implementation, how the actor acts.

This objection has always seemed to me, at least in part, to miss the point, seeking to reduce an act of creative intelligence to a mechanism (on the order of reducing consciousness to computation). And yet, the question of how design gets implemented in natural history does seem to be critical to understanding ID.

Thoughts?

Comments
Oops - forgot to proofread: the second sentence in the second paragraph should be "Would we see genes change somewhat simultaneously throughout a population of creatures all at once?"Jack Krebs
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
07:58 PM
7
07
58
PM
PDT
Here is what I think is a better question than how does the actor act, or at least an equally significant question: what would we see happening in the world at the moments that design is being implemented, if we could somehow catch design in the act, so to speak? Would we see things materialize where there was no thing before? Would we see genes change somewhat simultaneously throughout a population of creations all at once? Would we see just a few concerted changes in genes in just an individual, leaving it thereafter to chance as to whether the improvements bestowed upon that individual survived? Or a bigger question: is design limited to just genetic change, or can design enact changes in the rest of the biologcal world, or can design also effect the non-biological world? For instance, during a designed speciation event, might we see wholesale genetic changes in a whole generation within a population, accompanied by perhaps environmental changes to help increase the likelihood of those changes being passed on? It seems like these are reasonable question to ask. Furthermore, they are not about the mechanism - perhaps the mechanism is in fact undetectable, and they are not about the end product that supposedly winds up containing features of design. These questions are merely about what we would observe in the world at the moment of design. Anyone have any hypotheses?Jack Krebs
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
07:55 PM
7
07
55
PM
PDT
mea culpa The source was DLH comment#13 at: 2 June 2007 Robert Marks’s Evolutionary Informatics Lab Hopefully those were cleaned up. Another example of detecting intelligent causation by tracking down highly unlikely sequences caused by actions of an "intelligent agent" using tools. ----------------- John Sanford's Genomic Entropy provides specific quantitative evidence pointing in modern genomes pointing to original intelligent design that has been subject to progressive degradation by more random mutation than the repair mechanisms can handle.DLH
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
06:03 PM
6
06
03
PM
PDT
DLH, The post comes from a post you posted on Dembski's announcement of Baylor's Evolutionary Informatics Lab...back in June I believe... We got into a discussion of whether the lab would clarify the limits of Genetic Entropy and you posted this list in response as to what evidence could be used in making a proper mathematical .bornagain77
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
05:58 PM
5
05
58
PM
PDT
Bfast, BTW, what’s the – bit? It is just an underline for the word ever that got mistranslated by the computer somehow,,,, I guess just a serendipitous example of exactly what nonsense mutations are capable of...LOL. Here is another golden nugget from Dr. Sanford's book (page 135-136) ,,When we consider the full complexity of the gene, including its regulatory and architectural elements, a single gene has about 50,000 component parts (note; this could be an underestimate due to the findings of ENCODE). I presume that this is more component parts than are found in a modern automobile ....Yet a single gene is just a microscopic speck of Irreducible Complexity, within the universe of irreducible complexity that comprises a single cell. Life is itself the very essence of Irreducible Complexity- which is why we cannot even begin to think of creating life ourselves. Life is layer upon layer upon layer of Irreducible Complexity .....For the reader's interest I have attempted to expand on the concept of Irreducible Complexity- with the concept of Integrated Complexity (see Appendix 3)bornagain77
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
05:51 PM
5
05
51
PM
PDT
How does the actor act? Problem specific information, which provides a measure of active information, is front loaded into a programmed set of sufficiently organized laws to arrive at the problem/target/goal. In the end this is a debate of fundamental accident vs. fundamental teleology. The above account is consistent with a purely naturalistic (albeit not materialistic) account of ID Theory. I, personally, think that science is necessarily naturalistic (utilizing natural law) however not materialistic. IMO, material is only a function of mind acting in accordance with a set of probability waves. Therefore, mind and information are fundamental to material. Furthermore, the above account of how the actor acts is how all intelligent designs are implemented. The mind first has a teleological (future goal) target. It then generates problem specific information (active information) in order to solve the problem of how to arrive at the target. It then uses this active information to sufficiently organize (either directly or through programming) laws, matter, and chance processes. The target is then achieved with greater than chance results. NFL Theorem all the way ...CJYman
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
05:38 PM
5
05
38
PM
PDT
Admin Aside bFast - I am guessing the garbage characters were introduced by a word processor. I tried to clean them up above. bornagain77 How did you copy that quote and where from? Please save to a text file and read in etc. to avoid such word processing characters.DLH
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
05:36 PM
5
05
36
PM
PDT
I have worked out a description of the mechanism underlying "Intelligent Design".William Dembski are you willing enough to consider asking what is is?Tina
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
05:09 PM
5
05
09
PM
PDT
Reep, "have some reason why the designer could not or would not have used the mechanism of evolution?" There should be no reason why God could not use what is called gradualism or neo Darwinian processes to create change in the world. (I am assuming that is what you mean by the word evolution even though this word has many meanings) I am also using God here as the designer because to achieve the world we now see through a gradualistic approach would imply a designer of immense intelligence and would I believe be beyond the capability of any normal intelligence we could imagine. This was certainly what I believed till about 8 years ago when I started to research this topic. However, if God did create things gradually, He left no trace of this process, processes which should have billions of intermediary steps. It just does not exist. So faced with this evidence, I decided that gradualism was not the process used to create the world we live in. This is a major point of contention for many Christians and presumably others from different religious backgrounds because it implies a God that is very limited and has to intervene quite often to ensure the path that life takes. How much better a God that could create the initial conditions in the universe that would lead automatically to our world. That would truly be a magnificent God as opposed to one constantly tinkering with life that ID seems to imply. There are also those who believe that the gradualistic approach solves the theodicy problem since the process unfolds on its own and is not directed personally by God, then any natural evils that occur are not attributable to God. This is the basis for what is often referred to as theistic evolution. It is also why the arguments against ID are mostly theological with atheists often using these theological arguments. It certainly was the basis of Darwin's arguments along with analogies to artificial selection. The discussion is varied and complex and can quickly get into theology even by atheists.jerry
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
05:07 PM
5
05
07
PM
PDT
Tina, just from his handle, I suspected that all we'd get from him was sermons. As I have watched his posts, however, my esteem for him has been steadily climbing. It is to the point now where I am quick to read his posts. They have a certain intellectual quality to them that is too often lacking.bFast
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
05:06 PM
5
05
06
PM
PDT
bFast: Yes when Bornagain isn't giving a sermon he brings forth many treasures! I am thankful for this.Tina
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
04:48 PM
4
04
48
PM
PDT
BornAgain77 (46), Though the post is a bit long winded and dry, I am amazed and dissappointed that it hasn't yet produced chatter. May I highlite what I see is the seminal statement: Stanford:
We have reviewed compelling evidence that even when ignoring deleterious mutations, mutation/selection cannot create a single gene – not within the human evolutionary timescale. When deleterious mutations are factored back in, we see that mutation/selection cannot create a single gene – ever. This is overwhelming evidence against the Primary Axiom. In my opinion this constitutes what is essentially a formal proof that the Primary Axiom is false.
Not an insignificant quote! BTW, what's the – bit? I know its something that isn't translating correctly on my computer.bFast
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
02:55 PM
2
02
55
PM
PDT
But in the end, ID will only fly if a more concrete story can be told about the mechanism of design implementation, how the actor acts.
This is true. The theory of evolution does have a good story behind it. And it is the story (obviously not the data) behind it that has allowed it to persist. OK so now ID needs good creative writers- Has anyone else read Starlight and Time by Dr Russell Humphreys? He provides a "possible scenario" for the Creation Week, but it lacks creative force. A new ID project is born! Intelligent Design: The Narrative. On another note: Go Red Sox!!!!!!!!!Joseph
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
02:12 PM
2
02
12
PM
PDT
Hi Reep, you said, "“Yes, that shows features of design, because we know or have reason to believe that the designer(s) operated along those lines.”" Have you read Darwin's Black Box, by Mike Behe ? It is a little old now, but he does do exactly that. He may be mistaken, but he does set out pretty clear markers and what to look for. I think the problem for some people (perhaps you included) is that they want to be able to know in all cases one way or the other, but it can never be like that. Below a certain level of complexity you have to say, "don't know", and certainly at this point that floor is pretty high. I think this is inevitable.Jason Rennie
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
01:45 PM
1
01
45
PM
PDT
In order To further clarify the limits of observed evolution: Sources for Sanford's Genetic Entropy; Courtesy of DLH Dr. John C. Sanford, Genetic Entropy & The Mystery of the Genome. 2005 Ivan Press ISBN 1-59919-002-8. Following are major technical papers he reviews in Appendix 1. J.B.S. Haldane 1957 The Cost of natural selection. J. Genetics 55:511-524 “natural selection cannot occur with great intensity for a number of characters at once.” “the mean time taken for each gene substitution is about 300 generations.” See followup by Walter Remine 2005. Cost of Selection Theory. Technical Journal 19:113-125. Kimura, M. 1968. Evolutionary rate at the molecular level. Nature 217:624-626. “the substitutional load becomes so large that no mammalian species could tolerate it” … “the mutation rate per generation for neutral mutations amounts to roughly … four per zygote…”. Kimura, M. The Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution, 1983 Cambridge Univ. Press p 27 “to maintain the same population number and still carry out mutant substitutions … each parent must leave … 3.72 million offspring to survive and reproduce.” Muller, H.J. 1950. Our load of mutations. Amer. J. Human Genetics 2:111-176. “the present number of children per couple cannot be great enough to allow selection to keep pace with mutation rate of 0.1.” pp 149-150. Muller, H.J. 1964. The relation of recombination to mutational advance. Mutation Research 1:2-9. “There comes a level of advantage, however, that is too small to be effectively seized upon by selection, its voice being lost in the noise, so to speak.” “… an asexual population incorporates a kind of rachet mechanism, such that … lines become more heavily loaded with mutation.” J. V. Neel et al. 1986. The rate with which spontaneous mutation alters the electrophoretic mobility of polypeptides. PNAS 83:389-393. “… gamete rates for point mutations … on the order of 30 per generation… The question of how our species accommodates such mutation rates is central to evolutionary thought.” A. S. Kondrashov. 1995. Contamination of the genome by very slightly deleterious mutations: Why have we not died 100 times over? J. Theor. Biol. 175:583-594. “accumulation of VSDMs in a lineage … acts like a time bomb … the existence of vertebrate lineages … should be limited to 10^6 to 10^7 generations.” S. Kondrashov. 2002. Direct estimates of human per nucleotide mutation rates at 20 loci causing Mendelian diseases. Human Mutation 21:12-27. “… the total number of new mutations per diploid human genome per generation is about 100 … at least 10% of these are deleterious … analysis of human variability suggests that a normal person carries thousands of deleterious alleles…”. (Kondrashov privately estimates up to 300 /generation with 30% deleterious.) Sanford notes: “U”(deleterious mutations per person per generation) would be 30-90. This is 100-fold higher than would have previously been considered possible. M. W. Nachman & S.L. Crowell 2000. Estimate of the mutation rate per nucleotide in humans. Genetics 156:297-304. “The human diploid genome … about 175 new mutations per generation. The high deleterious mutation rate in humans presents a paradox. If mutations interact multiplicatively, the genetic load associated with such high U would be intolerable in species with a low rate of reproduction …” A. Eyre-Walker and P Keightley. 1999. High genomic deleterious mutation rates in Huminids. Nature 397:344-347. “average of 4.2 amino-acid-altering mutations per diploid per generation have occurred in the human lineage”. “a large number of slightly deleterious mutations may therefore have become fixed in huminoid lineages it is difficult to explain how human populations could have survived a high rate of deleterious mutation n is paradoxical in a species with a low reproductive rate” J. F. Crow. 1997. The high spontaneous mutation rate: is it a health risk? PNAS 94:8380-8386. “It seems clear that for the past few centuries harmful mutations have been accumulating. The decrease in viability from mutation accumulation is some 1-2% per generation I regard mutation accumulation as a problem. It is something like the population, but with a much longer fuse.” M. Lynch, J. Conery & R. Burger, 1995. Mutation accumulation and the extinction of small populations. The American Naturalist 146:489-518. “synergistic interaction between random genetic drift and mutation accumulation, which we refer to as mutational meltdown. . . the length of the meltdown phase is generally quite short.” “for genetic reasons alone, . . . populations with effective population sizes smaller than 100 individuals are unlikely to persist for more than a few hundred generations.” K. Higgins & M. Lynch. 2001. Metapopulation extinction caused by mutation accumulation. PNAS 98:2928-2933. “with mutation accumulation the extinction time is just slightly longer than 100 generations” (vs 2000). “ the mild mutational effects are most damaging, causing minimal time to extinction.” Fred Hoyle. 1999. Mathematics of Evolution. Acorn Enterprises, LLC Memphis. “This long term inability of natural selection to preserve the integrity of genetic material sets a limit to its useful life”. Howell et al. 1996. Evolution of human mtDNA. How rapid does the human mitochondrial genome evolve? A. J. Hum. Genet. 59:501-509. "how (or whether) organisms can tolerate, in the sense of evolution, a genetic system with such a high mutational burden.” Sanford notes “just 0.1 -1.0 mitochondrial mutations per person create insurmountable problems for evolutionary theory.” Sanford gives numerous other population based challenges evolution. On p 139 he summarizes: “We have reviewed compelling evidence that even when ignoring deleterious mutations, mutation/selection cannot create a single gene - not within the human evolutionary timescale. When deleterious mutations are factored back in, we see that mutation/selection cannot create a single gene ever. This is overwhelming evidence against the Primary Axiom. In my opinion this constitutes what is essentially a formal proof that the Primary Axiom is false.” Avida developers stated:”…our experiments showed that the complex feature never evolved when simpler functions were not rewarded.” Lenski, Ofria, Pennock & Adami, “The evolutionary origin of complex features.” Nature vol 423, 139-144 (8 May 2003) While evolution “must” have beneficial mutations, almost all recorded mutations are harmful. Bergman found 453,732 “mutation” hits in Biological Abstracts and Medline. Of these 186 mentioned “beneficial” of which all involved loss-of-function. Bergman, J. 2004. Research on the deterioration of the genome and Darwinism: why mutations result in degeneration of the genome. Intelligent Design Conference, Biola Univ. April 22-23. Mutations are registered in: Online Inheritance In Man OMIM http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01/index.html OMIM Statistics for June 4, 2007 17,717 entries. Gerrish and Lenski estimate the rate of harmful to beneficial mutations at 1 million:1 Gerrish, P.J. & R. Lenski, 1998. Theh fate of competing beneficial mutations in an asexual population. Genetica 102/103: 127-144. Thus while Avida requires a sequence of beneficial mutations, actual mutations are almost all harmful. Furthermore, numerous mutations occur simultaneously. Most of these cannot be selected out and build up, eventually causing species . Sanford details numerous other factors, each of which can result in species . As well, a discernable pattern is found in all sub-speciation in which sub-speciation always occurs at a loss of information (Genetic Entropy),,, For example, younger human races have been proven to have much less genetic diversity than the Parent race of east Africans..bornagain77
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
I bought the book " Great Physicists" about two-and-a-half years ago. I never made it much past Galileo. The other day I started reading it again. Made it all the way to Newton. At lunch today, I had the book out and was reading. Here's a direct quote: "Most important, however, was [Huygen's] philosophical bias. He followed Rene Descartes in the belief that natural phenomena must have mechanistic explanations. He rejected Newton's theory of universal gravitation, calling it "absurd," because it was no more than mathematics and proposed no mechanisms." (pp. 21-22; my emphasis and bold) How's that for "providently-provided perspective"?PaV
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
12:27 PM
12
12
27
PM
PDT
Joseph RE:42, Yes, you're correct. As I've mentioned before (and took flack for), even NS isn't a "mechanism" per se, but is an outcome.
Natural selection just selects among whatever variations exist in the population.
No, NS is the term we give to the results of differential reproduction. (Organisms select themselves, which is another word for differential reproduction.) Since we lack a coherent and sufficiently general definition of "fitness", we can't say that NS is the relation of fitness to differential reproduction, either. (We went rounds and rounds with this before...so I'll just leave it at this.) But yes, you're correct. "Evolution" isn't a mechanism per se.Atom
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
12:19 PM
12
12
19
PM
PDT
Good grief, I meant politically- correct thought police.StephenB
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
12:01 PM
12
12
01
PM
PDT
Is "evolution" a result or a mechanism? Everything I have ever read says it is a result of mechanisms. For example:
This is why “need,” “try,” and “want” are not very accurate words when it comes to explaining evolution. The population or individual does not “want” or “try” to evolve, and natural selection cannot try to supply what an organism “needs.” Natural selection just selects among whatever variations exist in the population. The result is evolution.
from- Natural SelectionJoseph
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
12:01 PM
12
12
01
PM
PDT
[...] How does the actor act? UD cites a lapsed ID convert, with a problem as to the designer. Question: If not ID, what then? The Darwinists are bankrupt. And the self-organizational theorists are hopelessly fuzzy. James Shapiro — he presupposes the very thing that needs to be explained, namely, the origin of systems that perform their own “natural genetic engineering.” Kirschner and Gerhardt are no better with their “facilitated variation” — whence the facilitation? [...]» Lapsed ID convert
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
11:54 AM
11
11
54
AM
PDT
allanius "To ask how the actor acts is to reopen the door of teleology, which should have been closed long ago, since it assigns transcendent significance to intellect." This appears to confuse the Means "How" with the end "Why". I understood the first question to be How the actor interacts with nature. The first scientific revolution focused on identifying the laws of nature - what always happens. For this search, setting aside teleology - the Why - is appropriate. However, for the next level, we need to explore design and thus need to look at design principles - thus reverse engineering the universe to begin to grasp principles that can apply in many situations - though not always like a law. Now it becomes necessary to allow teleology -the Why - since with design we need to identify goals and objectives based on which the design principles are selected and applied.DLH
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
11:31 AM
11
11
31
AM
PDT
I wonder if the answer to Dr. Dembski’s question hasn’t already been given. Patrick (#28) points out, for example: Dr. Behe “believes that God ‘used the mechanism of evolution’…the difference is that it is intelligent evolution and not unintelligent, unguided evolution. It seems to me that we need to first consider, and then to distinguish between, the Designer’s “direct” causation ( or ‘primary’ causation) and “indirect” causation (or ‘secondary’ causation). We don’t know, for example, what “causes” gravity (‘directly’); but we are certainly aware of its “effects” (‘direct, but secondary’ causation). Likewise, as Patrick notes, Dr. Behe sees NS as “intelligent evolution, and not unintelligent, unguided evolution.” Well, we may NEVER know ‘how’ the Designer ‘directly’ brought about his ‘design’; yet, within the design framework, there might be ‘mechanisms’ (‘secondary causes’) that can be identified. Maybe all that Darwin did was to identify one of the Designer’s ‘secondary causes’. Take, for example, bacterial mutation. When bacteria are environmentally ‘stressed’, they begin to mutate at a very high rate. In fact, there are two antibiotics for which bacteria can develop resistance ONLY if it starts mutating at a much higher rate. Well, you have some kind of environmental trigger, and, lo and behold, the bacteria act in what seems to be a “pre-programmed” way. Darwinists would simply say: “You see, RM+NS really works,” while completely dismissing the possibility that the bacteria’s response has ‘design’ characteristics. What about “recombination”? Is this some “pre-programmed” way of building in sufficient genomic diversity so as to allow adaptation to the environment (similar to the bacterial example I just used)? And would Darwinists like Sean Carroll see this as a way of “recombining” Hox genes so as to form different body-types, and no more, while ID people would see this as an in-built design process/mechanism? Using the analogy of a computer program (and I would certainly solicit the input of any programmers here among us), maybe the “acting” of the Designer can only be seen ‘indirectly’ through (for lack of a more sophisticated term) “subroutines” (viz., bacterial mutation rate increase and an increased recombination rate). If, for example, a computer programmer ran into an extremely sophisticated program, if he wanted to decipher it, he/she would probably have to begin at the edges of the program, looking at digital elements that repeat or that in some other way form some kind of discernible pattern. Once the smaller, less complicated “subroutines” were identified, and their interworkings identified as well, then the programmer might be in a position to understand the next layer of complexity, and then the next, etc. Well, where does all this leave us? Personally, I think we already know enough to say that: (1) Design has occurred---whether we rely on Irreducible Complexity, or CSI (incidentally, CSI is not just about probabilities; it’s about the probabilities involved in a particular ‘specification’, with this latter term having a very precise mathematical understanding) to describe it; (2) we’ll never be able to explain/identify the “mechanism” that the “Designer” directly used since from what is already known there are no “intermediate forms” when it comes to OOL questions, or when it comes to the rise of “multicellularity”. As Dr. Dembski points out in NFL, it’s entirely possible for the Designer to affect nature without being detected. He brilliantly uses the example of photons being split via polarized mirrors to make the point (the workings of the Designer being 'hidden' behind the 'probabilities' of QM). (3) Just as we can’t “explain” gravity, but are able to detect it’s effects, we might never be able to “explain” the design of life but still be able to see some of its effects. But this means that NS, recombination, Hox genes, etc, are to now be understood as part of the Designer’s design. Just as the “paradigm shift” of Copernicus changed only our way of looking at planetary motion planets, leaving completely unchanged the planet’s orbital trajectories and orbital durations (what was ALREADY known was simply subsumed into the new paradigm), why can’t that happen in the case of ID and already known genetical/biological phenomena? (It is, of course, commonplace to hear biologists use the terms ‘design’ and ‘reverse engineering’ when describing their lab methods and results.) So, as to the question Dr. Dembski asks, I find myself almost exactly in the position he takes: “This objection has always seemed to me, at least in part, to miss the point, seeking to reduce an act of creative intelligence to a mechanism (on the order of reducing consciousness to computation). And yet, the question of how design gets implemented in natural history does seem to be critical to understanding ID.” IOW, we’ll never know how Design took place; but we’ll likely learn more and more about how various elements of this Design actually work in nature. What all of this perhaps boils itself down to is this: when you see that bacteria under stress in the lab increasing their mutation rate, do you interpret this simply as a function (and result) of ‘NS at work’, or do you see this as an element of design? IOW, when you look up at the sky and you see the sun rising up into the morning sky, do you see the ‘sun going around the earth’, or do you see the ‘earth going around the sun.’ The facts don't change; what is known doesn't change---only our perspective and understanding changes. As I said: a paradigm shift (Isn’t that what Kuhn would tell us is behind all scientific revolutions?)PaV
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
11:14 AM
11
11
14
AM
PDT
Biological machinery indicates design, but it also evidences "construction". A complete and utter lack of knowledge about the methods or procedures of construction of biological machinery, any object for that matter, for example an intricate pocket watch, detracts not at all from the obvious recognition of the machinery or object's design. The "how" of an object's construction does not affect my recognition of the object's design. Demanding that I know how the complex machinery of a cell was constructed before I can know it was designed is like demanding that I know how a 747 was constructed before I decide to buy a ticket.glennj
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
11:12 AM
11
11
12
AM
PDT
Although I am fully convinced of the explicatory power of ID, this has always been a very intereting question to me. I asked Dr. Dembski this question a while back (http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1438), and I sincerely feel that the answer is somewhere out there. In my question to Dr. Dembski, I mentioned the possibility of entertaining the idea of explaining the designer's (/s') modus operandi in von Neumann terms. For one, we cannot ignore the ill effects of thermodynamic activity on any given system. Moreover, the system must be, not only self-replicating, but must also be a system capable of self-diagnosis and self-repairing (or signal conscious). It must not only be capable of avoiding entropy, but be capable of the opposite and increase in complexity/organization (i.e. negetropy). This would fall neatly into the idea of front loading, but the system must begin as a self-diagnosing and self-repairing system in order to avoid the effects of the second law. It must diagnose and repair faster than the entropic effects of nature. This seems to be consistent with what we are seeing in the fossil record immediately after the earth's genesis (i.e. fully functional and complex organisms capable of self-diagnosis and repair). It seems to me that anything within RNA research must take into account a mechanism similar to what I have outlined above, otherwise, you will have a system that is constantly being broken apart. In his attempt to make spontanous abiogenesis feasible, Manfred Eigen ignored the difference between "potential" information and "actual" information. The question is not on whether information can emerge from the biosphere, but how this information is organized and made funtional to the degree of building biomolecular motors, and so on. We know the effects of thermodynamic activity, we understand chemistry and physics. We also understand the effects of mind over matter. So, what's the problem? Your thoughts?Mario A. Lopez
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
11:06 AM
11
11
06
AM
PDT
When critics start asking for a mechanism, I usually interpret their skepticism as an pretext for their inability or unwillingness to pull themselves away from their failed religion of Darwinism. Forget the evidence, they seem to say, its not enough; show me a miracle then I will believe. There is a certain irony in these kinds of complaints. On the one hand, the critic complains that ID scientists do not probe deeply enough into the mystery of design. They ask, "where is the mechanism?" On the other hand, when the probing begins in earnest, these very same critics now object that the scientist has now gone to far by entering into the forbidden territory of theology. But my personal belief is that science and theology overlap in some ways, and that the most interesting research of all consists of trying to figure out what goes on at that intersection. The Political correct thought police militate against all such efforts, as we know. According to them, the line of demarcation is clear, and it may not be violated. But that is their rule; it is not reason's rule. Reason dictates that we go where the evidence leads, even if that means stretching and redifining our specialty. Its been done before. How can one investigate how the actor acts, while ignoring the character of the actor? At the same time, I think it is a mistake to limit ones research to looking for a mehcanism or even in being unduly concerned about it. One can be on the lookout for it while pursuing other things. To me, the ID scientist should not be looking for answers to his critics' questions; he should be looking for answers to his own questions. Most of us are driven to pursue truth in our own way, and when we are true to ourselves we do our best work.StephenB
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
10:50 AM
10
10
50
AM
PDT
It took scientists years of studying Stonehenge to develop a possible method of building it. And yes, part of an ID research program would be to look into possible design methods/ processes that will give a similar result. IMHO that is a better research program than trying to figure out how it was done it the first place. And by doing so then perhaps we may stumble on to the method/ process actually used. IOW all these other questions- who designed, what was designed, how/ when was it designed- prove that ID is not a scientific dead-end. It does force us to ask those other questions. Then we realize that the only possible way to answer them is via rigorous examination. We also realize that it matters a great deal whether that which is being investigated is the result of nature, operating freely or agency interaction. All that said, Dr Lee Spetner introduced a possible design mechanism in his 1997 book "Not By Chance". As part of his non-random evolutionary hypothesis he mentions "built-in responses to environmental cues". Fish anti-freeze comes to mind as a possible outcome of such a mechanism.Joseph
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
10:30 AM
10
10
30
AM
PDT
The scientist's question is paradoxical, even ridiculous. Perhaps he would be more satisfied if he knew in how many possible ways the actor could play. Deterministic evolutionary science tries to find definitive causes and repeatable mechanisms, (as John Kelly pointed out in 13), but (as Jason replied in 14), mechanisms, necessity and causality are a part of "science" only in some ways and not others. I am not sure if the scientist is arrogant (as Gerry Rzeppa asserted in 15), but he is " essentially saying that he won’t believe anything until he completely understands everything about it." In any case this scientist, like many scientists before him, is rather confused about the nature of causality, about nature acting (processes) and being (structures). There is some standard we have come to expect from human actors, but even a limited human actor can act in a surprisingly many (perhaps even unlimited) number ways, some (or many) quite shocking. One cannot even guess in how many possible ways could an unlimited supernatural agent, like God, act. One could consider even limited human actions random, especially if one doesn't understand why a human actor acted in some particular peculiar way. The problem of ID is not so much to show all the possible ways (actions) the actor can play, that would be futile, but rather to demonstrate that the underlying structures are intelligently designed and "limited" and therefore not subject to the currently postulated evolutionary randomness. ----------- Example: To illustrate, when Martin Gardner years ago published Chesterton's Orthodoxy, it was its chapter 4, and specifically the following that drew the attention of scientists and philosophers: It might be stated this way. There are certain sequences or developments (cases of one thing following another), which are, in the true sense of the word, reasonable. They are, in the true sense of the word, necessary. Such are mathematical and merely logical sequences. We in fairyland (who are the most reasonable of all creatures) admit that reason and that necessity. For instance, if the Ugly Sisters are older than Cinderella, it is (in an iron and awful sense) NECESSARY that Cinderella is younger than the Ugly Sisters. There is no getting out of it. Haeckel may talk as much fatalism about that fact as he pleases: it really must be. If Jack is the son of a miller, a miller is the father of Jack. Cold reason decrees it from her awful throne: and we in fairyland submit. If the three brothers all ride horses, there are six animals and eighteen legs involved: that is true rationalism, and fairyland is full of it. But as I put my head over the hedge of the elves and began to take notice of the natural world, I observed an extraordinary thing. I observed that learned men in spectacles were talking of the actual things that happened--dawn and death and so on--as if THEY were rational and inevitable. They talked as if the fact that trees bear fruit were just as NECESSARY as the fact that two and one trees make three. But it is not. There is an enormous difference by the test of fairyland; which is the test of the imagination. You cannot IMAGINE two and one not making three. But you can easily imagine trees not growing fruit; you can imagine them growing golden candlesticks or tigers hanging on by the tail. These men in spectacles spoke much of a man named Newton, who was hit by an apple, and who discovered a law. But they could not be got to see the distinction between a true law, a law of reason, and the mere fact of apples falling. If the apple hit Newton's nose, Newton's nose hit the apple. That is a true necessity: because we cannot conceive the one occurring without the other. But we can quite well conceive the apple not falling on his nose; we can fancy it flying ardently through the air to hit some other nose, of which it had a more definite dislike. We have always in our fairy tales kept this sharp distinction between the science of mental relations, in which there really are laws, and the science of physical facts, in which there are no laws, but only weird repetitions. We believe in bodily miracles, but not in mental impossibilities. We believe that a Bean-stalk climbed up to Heaven; but that does not at all confuse our convictions on the philosophical question of how many beans make five. Here is the peculiar perfection of tone and truth in the nursery tales. The man of science says, "Cut the stalk, and the apple will fall"; but he says it calmly, as if the one idea really led up to the other. The witch in the fairy tale says, "Blow the horn, and the ogre's castle will fall"; but she does not say it as if it were something in which the effect obviously arose out of the cause. Doubtless she has given the advice to many champions, and has seen many castles fall, but she does not lose either her wonder or her reason. She does not muddle her head until it imagines a necessary mental connection between a horn and a falling tower. But the scientific men do muddle their heads, until they imagine a necessary mental connection between an apple leaving the tree and an apple reaching the ground. They do really talk as if they had found not only a set of marvellous facts, but a truth connecting those facts. They do talk as if the connection of two strange things physically connected them philosophically. They feel that because one incomprehensible thing constantly follows another incomprehensible thing the two together somehow make up a comprehensible thing. Two black riddles make a white answer. In fairyland we avoid the word "law"; but in the land of science they are singularly fond of it. Thus they will call some interesting conjecture about how forgotten folks pronounced the alphabet, Grimm's Law. But Grimm's Law is far less intellectual ... etc. (Read the whole chapter 4 of Orthodoxy, http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/ )rockyr
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
09:51 AM
9
09
51
AM
PDT
"...if a more concrete story can be told about the mechanism of design implementation, how the actor acts." I must agree with TRoutMac and others. Put it this way, seeking the mechanism of the "actor" is irrelevant, however interesting or fascinating it may be. The deepest we seem to be able to go in this case is down to atomic structures. Can we go deeper? Possibly. Don't know. But even if we could, is it not perfectly obvious that once we've gotten to the absolute deepest level of matter, we still cannot answer where the matter came from? By what 'mechanism of design implementation'! Apply the same question to matter itself, or time. It's like asking why something true is true. Why does 1+1=2? Or, 'what is life'? No one can answer that on purely mechanical or materialistic terms. Brings back the old philosophical arguments on first truths. Truths that cannot and need not be proven but are still true. Those who persistently require knowledge of the designer don't understand ID at all. They have not made the first step into the design inference. Inference intrinsically works that way. It doesn't require further knowledge of the inferred - no matter how many more intriguing questions it raises. Asking the designer to show you the physical mechanisms of how he designed his work, in the case of biological entities, is akin to asking the author of a book to show you where, in the book, how he wrote the book. DNA is the book. The designer of life has already given us ample evidence of his existence. He has already made the chemical code that makes it work accessible. Inferences about the designer's methods, nature, intentions, purposes etc. are very interesting but extraneous to ID.Borne
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
09:51 AM
9
09
51
AM
PDT
I fail to see why Shapiro sees the lack of a mechanism as a show stopper for ID. However, I am very hopeful that some amount of mechanism will be discovered. It will only be discovered when scientists start looking for it -- when ID is considered to be a scientifically valid concept. However, some amount of mechanism must be findable. For instance, what happens when a new designed mutation happens. Does the designer change one gene, leaving the rest of the organism unchanged, then go in and change another? Or does the designer present an entire set of genes to an organism adding a new feature? This should be detectable. Some have suggested that the designer starts from scratch, from dust, and creates a whole new species. If so this should be detectable -- the evidence I have seen goes against this hypothesis. There is so much that might be discoverable once we begin to look with the eyes that there's been an agent a-twiddlin'. This is much of what I hope that science will begin to uncover once the stumbling block of naturalism is overcome.bFast
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
09:08 AM
9
09
08
AM
PDT
Reep asks an excellent question.
I would personally find it far more convincing if ID proponents could tell me in some way what are defining features of designed things versus undesigned things.
This is exactly the question that Dr. Dembski and Dr. Behe asked. That is ID theory in a nutshell (says this layman observer). The defining features of designed things are irreducible complexity and the more general case of specified complexity. Not all designed things exhibit these features but all things exhibiting these features are designed. CSI is a sufficient but not necessary observation. Behe has used this idea (without saying so) in his new book to demonstrate just how far design goes and is implicated in biological systems. To answer Dr. Dembski's question - mechanism is unnecessary. We have many theories to explain quantum effects, for instance. There is no accepted mechanism, but plenty of science. In fact, QM suggests it's high-time we forget about "mechanism" and move on from machine-like explanations to thought-like.Charlie
October 24, 2007
October
10
Oct
24
24
2007
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply