Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

How ID helps scientists: providing a framework for complexity

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ATP Synthase

COMPLEXITY =/=> EVOLUTION
Many Darwinists equate complexity with evolution. They see the fossil record of increasing complexity with time as precisely what defines Evolution. But is increasing complexity always a good thing? The history of computers is instructive.

Your iPhone and laptop computer are constructed using base-2, principally because flip-flops and early binary circuits were easy to make, even the earliest electronic memory based on circular ferrites was two-state. This base-2 necessity led to an explosion in the study of Boolean Algebra and binary logic in the 1950’s, which demonstrated that everything you could do in base-10 could be done in base-2.

By the late 50’s, the Russians were falling further and futher behind the US in computer technology, and being the math-nerds they are, they thought that perhaps binary computers were just the first step in a necessary evolution of computers. So if evolution was complexity, then the obvious next evolutionary step should be ternary logic, or 3-state systems. Rather than (-1,1), they built circuits that used (-1, 0, 1) as logic states.

After much effort, they had their first ternary computer up and running and programmed, and they could compare it to the US binary machines. They were abysmally slower. Not only so, but they were slower even if one emulated ternary logic in software on a binary machine–for you FORTRAN afficionados, this was the FOR66 arithmetic goto statement. I personally translated a 40-line FOR66 program CURFIT from Philip Bevington’s 1969 “Data Analysis” textbook into TurboPascal, and wrestled for a whole week with the ternary logic. It was devilish, ultra-compact, but a royal pain.  Five years later I was translating it into “C” (TurboPascal having died an early death) and read Kernighan and Richie’s classic text where they said about “clever” ternary algorithms the same thing that my poetry instructor had told me in college–“Kill all your little darlings.” Or as the Brits would say, “Too clever by half.”

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Comments
Freedom From Religion is trying to shut down the church today so I guess that's good thing in your book? It's only good when done against the church because science has the final say on who\s a thinker and who's not.JLAfan2001
May 31, 2013
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So if religion is bad, why did natural selection keep it going for so long? Wouldn't it make us extinct by now? But no because science was heavily influenced by the church so we prospered because of it. Wait, they were all theists back then because they din't have a choice because natural selection didn't allow them to.JLAfan2001
May 31, 2013
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And what do you think would happen if the church tried to force the academy to shutdown tomorrow? I dont think it would go over very well. Thankfully the church does not have the power to do so anymore. In the 1600s it did, and thats exactly what it did. It used its power to hinder free-thinking individuals where it could.CharlieD
May 31, 2013
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An early scientific society, Academia de Lincei, was founded in early 1600s and subsequently closed when it clashed with the church. Thus shutting down all scientific inquiry forever. Oh, wait. Interesting point: the academy reopened in 1870 and is the national academy of Italy, encompassing science and literature in its concerns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accademia_dei_Lincei).Barb
May 31, 2013
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The sciences were heavily influenced by the church, experimental science was still in its infancy back then anyways. Religion has been around for a long time, its going to take a while to undo its misdeeds.CharlieD
May 31, 2013
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Were they persecuted and put in jail or just opposed because anyone can oppose anyone in a free society, right?JLAfan2001
May 31, 2013
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An early scientific society, Academia de Lincei, was founded in early 1600s and subsequently closed when it clashed with the church.CharlieD
May 31, 2013
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AH, I see blame theists for the bad because they had a choice but don't give them credit for the good because they had no choice. Stellar logic, Opie.JLAfan2001
May 31, 2013
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You do know that atheists existed during Galileo's day, Charlie? It wasn't until the 18th and 19th centuries (the Enlightenment) that atheism became tenable.Barb
May 31, 2013
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Theists discovered the earth revolves around the sun? Of course they did you dumbass, everyone was a theist back then, especially the people who wanted a good education.CharlieD
May 31, 2013
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CharlieD Out of all the scientists ever in history, name one who was persecuted and imprisoned by the church other than Galileo. I don't mean opposed, challanged or questioned. I mean persecuted like he was.JLAfan2001
May 31, 2013
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It was theists who discovered the opposite to this, fool, not atheists.JLAfan2001
May 31, 2013
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That's one church, Charlie. The Roman Catholic Church. Which, eventually, acknowledged its error and granted Galileo a pardon. You surely are intelligent enough--given all the experiences you claim to have had--to know that the behavior of a group in one religion does not affect the behavior of groups in other religions.Barb
May 31, 2013
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Sure, just another example of the church's promotion of ignorance. If it were up to the church, we'd still think the solar system revolved around us.CharlieD
May 31, 2013
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CharlieD:
And even if what you say is true, men were still punished by the church for their geocentric ideas.
We shouldn't be deceived into thinking that all religion is automatically good enough for God, merely because it falls into the category of “religion.” When we examine this word and its usage in the Bible, it becomes apparent that a religion is either wrong or right in God’s sight. Speaking of the time when he was a Jewish Pharisee, the apostle Paul says: “According to the most sure sect of our religion I lived, a Pharisee.” (Acts 26:5, Dy) He also warned the Christians at Colossae: “Let no man seduce you, willing in humility and religion of angels.” (Col. 2:18, Dy) In both instances Paul uses the word “religion” in connection with worship that was false and unacceptable to God. Merely sincerely accepting and following a religious organization will not guarantee God’s approval and protection through this world’s end. Sincerity, conviction, or intensity of devotion will not change falsehood into truth. The church’s theologians no doubt were sincere in their conviction that the earth did not revolve about the sun, as evidenced by their frantic reaction to Galileo’s views. However, did their sincerity, conviction and intensity of reaction make null and void Galileo’s findings? Has not true science determined that the planets do indeed revolve about the sun? Did the church’s stand somehow cause the earth to cease traveling its God-assigned orbit around the sun? No. The church’s views were at fault, incorrect. Their sincerity could not void actuality.Barb
May 31, 2013
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Im not talking about your high school freshman biology book that you read the first page of and gave up. I understand evolution is a hard pill to swallow for many, but that is because for it to go down easily, you have to be well-versed in a number of the fields of biology. And even if what you say is true, men were still punished by the church for their geocentric ideas.CharlieD
May 31, 2013
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I have read biology books- no evidence for natural selection producing multi-protein configurations. And yet living organisms contain many such configurations. And CharlieD- the geocentric was the scientific view at the time of Galileo- see Ptolemy.Joe
May 31, 2013
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Feel free to open a biology book, an evolutionary biology book, a scientific article on evolution, etc and find out. That would be too much to ask of anyone here though im sure.CharlieD
May 31, 2013
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You do realize that evolutionary biology is its own scientific field right?
It's a great field! But what makes it scientific?
You can belittle it all you want but there is more scientific evidence that supports evolution than you can comprehend.
Then why does a leading proponent, a semi-regular poster here at UD, and an "expert" in the field of "macro-evolutionary theory" consistently refrain from supplying references to standard texts in his alleged scientific field? Is he just a hack?Mung
May 31, 2013
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CharlieD, Galileo remained religious until he died. The fact is, however, that the heliocentric theory was not criticized by theologians alone. Pope Urban VIII, who played a prominent role in the case, rigidly insisted that Galileo refrain from undermining the centuries-old church teaching that the earth is the center of the universe. That teaching came, not from the Bible, but from the Greek philosopher Aristotle. In the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, Mario D’Addio, a noted member of the special commission set up by Pope John Paul II to review Galileo’s 1633 conviction, said: “The so-called heresy of Galileo does not seem to have any foundation, neither theologically nor under canon law.” According to D’Addio, the Inquisition court overstepped its authority—Galileo’s theories did not violate any article of faith. The Vatican newspaper admitted that the conviction of Galileo for heresy was baseless. Yet, when pointing to the case of Galileo to demonstrate religious suppression of science, scientists would do well to remember that Galileo’s discovery was not accepted by the research establishment of his day. Contrary to contemporary thought, the Bible was not out of harmony with that truth. God’s Word needed no revision. It was the Catholic Church’s misinterpretation of the Bible that caused the problem.Barb
May 30, 2013
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Im sure galileo was religious, right up until the church put him on house arrest for his ideas that the sun was the center of our solar system...CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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CharlieD:
Oh boy, you guys are really clueless huh? You have absolutely no idea how complex and extremely difficult it is to study nature on the molecular level do you?
More ad hominem arguments. You realize that insulting your audience doesn't make you look smarter, right? And that use of logical fallacies to prove a point only makes you look unintelligent, right? Dr. Michael Behe noted the difficulties in showing evolution on a molecular level back in 1996. Molecular evolution is not based on scientific authority. . . . There are assertions that such evolution occurred, but absolutely none are supported by pertinent experiments or calculations. Since no one knows molecular evolution by direct experience, and since there is no authority on which to base claims of knowledge, it can truly be said that . . . the assertion of Darwinian molecular evolution is merely bluster.”—Darwin’s Black Box.
We’ve only really been studying this stuff for a hundred years or so at best. Evolution is still in its infancy in my opinion, we have the basics down but many of the details still need to be worked out.
Evolution has been extensively studied (according to you) for over 150 years. Well over 100 million fossils have been discovered and cataloged in museums worldwide. If you are still "working out the details" and gathering data, then don't proclaim that it's an absolute fact since, by your logic, you don't have conclusive enough data to state that.
You guys take advantage of the huge amount of information science still hasnt found, promote it as science being wrong, and then wonder why science hasnt fond all the answers.
We don't promote it as science being wrong, just that science doesn't have all the answers yet. It is foolish to assert otherwise. Absence of evidence is, well, absence of evidence. You logically cannot draw conclusions (at least not correct conclusions) if you don't have all the data.
Well guess what, the reason we know so little is because peckerwood jackasses like you guys are holding back society by showing science in a bad light and promoting the intellectual uselessness that is religion. Thanks guys.
Yet more idiotic ad hominem argumentation from someone who claims to be intelligent. Try again. If you think religion is intellectual uselessness, then explain how modern science is built on the works of those like Galileo, Newton, et al, who were religious.Barb
May 30, 2013
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Oh boy, you guys are really clueless huh? You have absolutely no idea how complex and extremely difficult it is to study nature on the molecular level do you? We've only really been studying this stuff for a hundred years or so at best. Evolution is still in its infancy in my opinion, we have the basics down but many of the details still need to be worked out. You guys take advantage of the huge amount of information science still hasnt found, promote it as science being wrong, and then wonder why science hasnt fond all the answers. Well guess what, the reason we know so little is because peckerwood jackasses like you guys are holding back society by showing science in a bad light and promoting the intellectual uselessness that is religion. Thanks guys.CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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CharlieD:
The amount of time and effort that goes into the theory of evolution that is taught in schools today is mind boggling.
Yep. And still, despite all the mind boggling time and effort, it doesn't answer any of the fundamental questions about the origin and diversity of life on the Earth. Perhaps it is time to move on from this 1900's theory that has yielded so little.Eric Anderson
May 30, 2013
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Evolution is built on observations, studies, and experiments of the natural world from every field of science.
What evolution are you talking about? What observations, studies and experiments demonstrate that unguided evolution can produce functional multi-protein configurations, like ATP synthase? Lenski- 50,000+ generations and no new proteins, no new functions, just an old protein used in an O2 rich environment. And yes, we can understand how nature works because that is what we were designed to do. And we were placed in a great location from which to do it.Joe
May 30, 2013
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CharlieD writes,
You do realize that evolutionary biology is its own scientific field right? You can belittle it all you want but there is more scientific evidence that supports evolution than you can comprehend.
Yes, I know evolutionary biology is its own field of study. Did you realize that some of the evidence you claim exists has been called into question by scientists? Time magazine, while saying that there are “many solid facts” backing the evolution theory, nonetheless concedes that evolution is a complex tale with “many holes and no shortage of competing theories on how to fill in the missing pieces.”
Wow so some WWII doctor didnt need it to study antibiotics…therefore it must be useless! Nice. Youre to used to dealing with people who have only a basic knowledge in Biology. I assure you I am not one of these people and when someone has this knowledge it is quite easy to see through your pitiful arguments. This entire site is nothing but anti-science propaganda, hoping to cast doubt on the scientific community.
So, you are setting yourself up as a knowledgeable person, one who is competent enough to understand arguments both for and against evolution. The thing is, since you’re not a public figure (like, say, Michael Ruse), you have to convince your audience (the readers at UD) that you have credibility. How do you do that? Credibility is another name for “ethos” (Greek, from which the English word “ethics” is derived) and refers to the honesty, moral character, and intellectual competence of the speaker (in this case, you). However, immediately after proclaiming yourself as an expert, you immediately fall victim to a logical fallacy known as guilt by association. You wrongly assert that this entire site is anti-science when, in fact, it is not.
Haha oh boy. Look old man, evolution connects all the dots from every other field of biology. Open any college level biology-related book and you will find evolution mentioned numerous times. The only pseudoscience here is your bullshit.
Here is another logical fallacy: argumentum ad populum. College-level textbooks mention evolution, as do middle school and high school textbooks. This does not prove that evolution is correct. In fact, many scientists have doubts regarding the exact mechanism for evolution (witness Stephen Jay Gould’s theory of punctuated equilibrium). Truth is not determined by the number of people who believe in a particular concept. I’d think someone of your intellectual caliber would know to avoid illogical thinking.
Evolution is built on observations, studies, and experiments of the natural world from every field of science.
Although evolution is usually presented in scientific language, it is really a religious doctrine. It teaches a philosophy of life and an attitude toward God. Its beliefs are subtly attractive to mankind’s selfish, independent tendencies. Many who believe in evolution say that they also believe in God. However, they feel free to think of God as one who has not created things, does not intervene in man’s affairs, and will not judge people. It is a creed that tickles people’s ears. If evolutionists lack explanations, why do they preach their ideas so loudly? Behe explains: “Many people, including many important and well-respected scientists, just don’t want there to be anything beyond nature.” The tyranny of authority was noted even during Jesus’ time. It proves nothing. One points out: “Darwin’s model of evolution . . . , being basically a theory of historical reconstruction, . . . is impossible to verify by experiment or direct observation as is normal in science . . . Moreover, the theory of evolution deals with a series of unique events, the origin of life, the origin of intelligence and so on. Unique events are unrepeatable and cannot be subjected to any sort of experimental investigation.” (Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, by Michael Denton) Another speaks of “the fact of evolution.” Nevertheless, he points up a major difficulty in proving this “fact”: “When you look for links between major groups of animals, they simply aren’t there.”—The Neck of the Giraffe, by Francis Hitching.
You love to pretend that scientists just sit in their labs and make things up as they go along, but you have no clue waht you are talking about.
This is a simple ad hominem fallacy. The truth is, nobody here pretends that scientists just “make things up” (maybe the ones who promoted cold fusion). However, ignoring the fact that scientists can and do make mistakes is faulty thinking. There have been cases of scientific fraud. This four-word propaganda line, ‘Evolution is a fact,’ is little (little in content), is a simple sentence (easily said), and is repeated persistently (even 12 times in one short essay). It qualifies as effective brainwashing propaganda, and with repetition it reaches the status of a slogan—and slogans everywhere repeated are soon programmed into brains and tripped off tongues with little critical examination or skeptical dissection. Once a theory has been sloganized into community thinking, it no longer requires proof, and any who dissent are scorned. If such dissenters present rational refutation of the slogan’s validity, they are especially irritating and subjected to the only available response, namely, ridicule.
The amount of time and effort that goes into the theory of evolution that is taught in schools today is mind boggling. Since Darwin’s ideas were published we have continuously found supporting evidence in each discovery about how nature works.
But scientists are often left with more questions than answers. And in many cases, what was touted as evidence for evolution has proven to be nothing of the sort. One of the core cocepts of evolution is that mutations provide the raw material to make new species. What has experimentation proven? Even so, the data now gathered from some 100 years of mutation research in general and 70 years of mutation breeding in particular enable scientists to draw conclusions regarding the ability of mutations to produce new species. After examining the evidence, Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, a scientist from the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research in Germany, concluded: “Mutations cannot transform an original species [of plant or animal] into an entirely new one. This conclusion agrees with all the experiences and results of mutation research of the 20th century taken together as well as with the laws of probability. Thus, the law of recurrent variation implies that genetically properly defined species have real boundaries that cannot be abolished or transgressed by accidental mutations.” Another tenet of evolution is natural selection, and many point to Darwin’s finches for support. In the 1970’s, a research group led by Peter and Rosemary Grant began studying these finches and discovered that after a year of drought, finches that had slightly bigger beaks survived more readily than those with smaller beaks. Since the size and shape of the beaks is one of the primary ways of determining the 13 species of finches, these findings were assumed to be significant. “The Grants have estimated,” continues the brochure, “that if droughts occur about once every 10 years on the islands, a new species of finch might arise in only about 200 years.” However, the NAS brochure neglects to mention some significant but awkward facts. In the years following the drought, finches with smaller beaks again dominated the population. Thus, Peter Grant and graduate student Lisle Gibbs wrote in the science journal Nature in 1987 that they had seen “a reversal in the direction of selection.” In 1991, Grant wrote that “the population, subjected to natural selection, is oscillating back and forth” each time the climate changes. The researchers also noticed that some of the different “species” of finches were interbreeding and producing offspring that survived better than the parents. Peter and Rosemary Grant concluded that if the interbreeding continued, it could result in the fusion of two “species” into just one within 200 years. Back in 1966, evolutionary biologist George Christopher Williams wrote: “I regard it as unfortunate that the theory of natural selection was first developed as an explanation for evolutionary change. It is much more important as an explanation for the maintenance of adaptation.” Evolutionary theorist Jeffrey Schwartz wrote in 1999 that if Williams’ conclusions are correct, natural selection may be helping species to adapt to the changing demands of existence, but “it is not creating anything new.” Indeed, Darwin’s finches are not becoming “anything new.” They are still finches. And the fact that they are interbreeding casts doubt on the methods some evolutionists use to define a species. In addition, they expose the fact that even prestigious scientific academies are not above reporting evidence in a biased manner. A third tenet of evolution is the fossil record. In 2004, National Geographic described the fossil record as being like “a film of evolution from which 999 of every 1,000 frames have been lost on the cutting-room floor.” Niles Eldredge, a staunch evolutionist, admits that the record shows that for long periods of time, “little or no evolutionary change accumulates in most species.” To date, scientists worldwide have unearthed and cataloged some 200 million large fossils and billions of microfossils. Many researchers agree that this vast and detailed record shows that all the major groups of animals appeared suddenly and remained virtually unchanged, with many species disappearing as suddenly as they arrived. After reviewing the evidence of the fossil record, biologist Jonathan Wells writes: “At the level of kingdoms, phyla, and classes, descent with modification from common ancestors is obviously not an observed fact. To judge from the fossil and molecular evidence, it’s not even a well-supported theory.”Barb
May 30, 2013
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Evolution is built on observations, studies, and experiments of the natural world from every field of science. You love to pretend that scientists just sit in their labs and make things up as they go along, but you have no clue waht you are talking about. The amount of time and effort that goes into the theory of evolution that is taught in schools today is mind boggling. Since Darwin's ideas were published we have continuously found supporting evidence in each discovery about how nature works.CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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Thorton is here?computerist
May 30, 2013
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"The only pseudoscience here is your bullshit." REALLY?? How interesting for you to claim that, can you please lay out the exact falsification criteria of Darwinism since no one I know of can seem to find it? Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details – Dr. V. J. Torley – February 27, 2013 Excerpt: After all, mathematics, scientific laws and observed processes are supposed to form the basis of all scientific explanation. If none of these provides support for Darwinian macroevolution, then why on earth should we accept it? Indeed, why does macroevolution belong in the province of science at all, if its scientific basis cannot be demonstrated? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/macroevolution-microevolution-and-chemistry-the-devil-is-in-the-details/bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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Haha oh boy. Look old man, evolution connects all the dots from every other field of biology. Open any college level biology-related book and you will find evolution mentioned numerous times. The only pseudoscience here is your bullshit.CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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