Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

How Some Materialists are Blinded by Their Faith Commitments

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Every once in a while we get one of those “aha moments” when everything comes together.  Phillip Johnson helped me to one of those moments over 20 years ago when I read this passage from an article in First Things (when that journal still permitted dissenting voices to be heard):

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter.  We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence.  That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”

Aha!  If Darwinism or something like it must be true as a matter of deduction from materialism, then evidence takes a back seat.  Dawkins once said he would prefer Darwinism even if there were no evidence to support it.  That is hard to understand until one understands Johnson’s point.

I thought about this today when a friend reminded me of this quote from Nobel laureate Jacques Monod:

“We call these [mutations] accidental; we say that they are random occurrences. And since they constitute the only possible source of modifications in the genetic text, itself the sole repository of the organisms’ hereditary structure, it necessarily follows that chance alone is at the source of every innovation of all creation in the biosphere. Pure chance, absolutely free but blind, at the very root of the stupendous edifice of evolution: this central concept of modern biology is no longer one among other possible or even conceivable hypotheses. It is today the sole conceivable hypothesis.”

Seriously?  No other explanation is even “conceivable”?  I can understand how someone could consider the evidence and reject ID.  I would believe they are mistaken, but not everyone is going to come to the same conclusion as I do.  I get that.  But to say that ID is not even “conceivable”?  Well, that’s just plain stupid.  Why would Monod, obviously not a stupid man, say something so dumb?  His faith commitments blinded him and stunted his imagination.  A dogmatic commitment to materialist metaphysics makes even very smart people literally blind to alternatives.  And it makes them say stupid things.

Another example:  Paraphrasing Hawking:  Because there is something, the universe can create itself from nothing.

Comments
Bob, Francis Crick explained why you are wrong. Also proof-reading, error-correction, editing and splicing are not reducible to chemistry. as those require knowledge, ie information, to carry out. "It just happens" is not an answer.ET
March 29, 2018
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Eric Anderson @ 176 - if I'm wrong, you should be able to explain why I'm wrong, not just state it. Upright Biped @ 177 - Yes, a rabbit has a representation of a hawk, not the hawk. So the information isn't "in" the hawk, it's created (from the sensory inputs) by the rabbit. But the rabbit doesn't start calculating \sum_i p_i log p_i: that's something we humans do as a sophisticated way of representing other types of input.Bob O'H
March 29, 2018
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I don’t accept the notion that information, as commonly understood, is a property of the genome or an organism
Science disagrees with and has refuted that claim.ET
March 29, 2018
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1. Physical objects don’t contain information by their mere existence.
Yes, they do. And I have already covered 2 and 3.
Tell me, what do you think is encoded in an ordinary rock?
I have already said- the information as to its formation. Read Dembski and GittET
March 29, 2018
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I’m not sure any of you are getting my point.
Your point is not hard to get Bob, it's just patently wrong. If a rabbit looks up to see a hawk circling above, it does not have a circling hawk traveling through its optical nerves to its visual cortex - it has a representation of a hawk (i.e. information) instantiated in a pattern of neural impulse; transcribed from the environment by the specialized organization of its eyes, to be interpreted by constraints that are in place in its brain which will translate that pattern into a life-saving dash to the nearest burrow. This has nothing to do with humanity. The anthropocentric mistake is to suggest that -- since we humans can conceive of how it works -- we have somehow imputed it into the world around us. No, we haven't. Now, if you want to argue that it's an anthropocentric mistake to suggest there is "information in everything", then you have my backing. I've been saying it for years. But its simply dull to suggest that information is merely a human construct. Biology has been producing and interpreting information for eons before we ever appeared on the scene.Upright BiPed
March 29, 2018
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Seversky, Bob, jdk: You guys are staking out an incredibly absurd and irrational position that has very little support in the broader research communities in biology, computing, and bioinformatics. You are also demonstrating that you don't understand the basics of information -- what it is, how it arises, how it gets stored, how it can be discovered. Very strange to take such a position so contrary to the evidence, just to avoid having to deal with the key questions head on. Just as one example, I happened to be watching a talk yesterday by Dario Gil, VP of Science and Solutions at IBM, working on cutting edge efforts on quantum computing. His take: "If you look at an old [computer] punch card and DNA, we've come to appreciate that both carry something in common. They carry information." ----- And yet, all the obfuscation and denial and attempts to redefine information still don't answer the key fascinating and fundamental questions about what we find in biology.Eric Anderson
March 29, 2018
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ET, you keep claiming there is information in everything, but you aren't thinking through whether there really is. This is getting a bit tedious, but if we want to really understand the distinctions, we need to press on a bit. One of the things we know about information is that, at a minimum, it can be (a) encoded in a language or other symbolic system, (b) transmitted, (c) translated. Tell me, what do you think is encoded in an ordinary rock? What language or symbolic system is it encoded in? What information contained in that rock can you transmit? Can you please translate the information contained in the rock into another language? Of course not. The request doesn't even make sense, because we are not dealing with information. It isn't there. Look, there are only three possibilities: 1. Physical objects don't contain information by their mere existence. Yes, they can be made to represent information if they are arranges with specificity, in other words, if they are used as a medium to store information that has been encoded in a symbolic system. But simply by existing (the rock floating through space we've been talking about), it doesn't contain information. 2. Everything contains information. But the kind of information contained in DNA (yes, of course coding or or similar functional stretches, that is what we are talking about on this thread) is different from the "information" contained in all things. When we're looking for information in the sense of design detection we are looking for the kind of information contained in DNA. In which case the other kind of "information" is irrelevant to the discussion and we are only confusing things by bringing it up. 3. Everything contains information. There is no difference between DNA and a rock floating in space. Nothing special about what we see in biology. Move along folks. I suppose there is actually a 4th possibility: 4. Deny that information is real or is in anything. It is just an artificial construct and has no real tie to the real world. Nothing to special about what we see in biology. Stick our heads in the sand and move along folks. ----- Now I take it you would disagree with #3 and #4. Both of these are absurd (Seversky and Bob O'H), I'm talking to you, among others). #1 is the right way to view things. See the following and subsequent related posts: https://uncommondescent.com/informatics/intelligent-design-basics-information/ This should clear up your misunderstanding of where the information comes from that you think is contained in the rock. Hint: It isn't contained in the rock. Like all information, it arises from mental activity -- in this case, the mental activity of the investigator. Second hint: You need to start distinguishing between information about a physical object and information contained in or represented by a physical object. These are very different, and the conflation of the two produces no small amount of confusion. Finally, if you still insist on #2, then let's at least be clear that the reference to some vague concept of information existing in all things isn't relevant or helpful for purposes of identifying whether there is information in, say, biology, that needs to be accounted for. As Seversky noted, a general claim of information everywhere in everything just muddies the water and confuses the discussion.Eric Anderson
March 29, 2018
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ET @ 171:
(i) The information that went into making it.
Interesting. I would venture, though, that it would be some portion thereof, with the remainder being found in what would be called "waste", if it were an industrial process?LocalMinimum
March 29, 2018
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I agree with Bob. To quote Seversky again,
I don’t accept the notion that information, as commonly understood, is a property of the genome or an organism or a piece of rock. In my view, it is a property of the modeling languages and simulations we use to describe and explain what we observe but to attribute it to what is being observed is to confuse the map with the territory, the model with what is being modeled. It is misleading.
And to quote myself, :-), from 52
This is an interesting point. I think it distinguishes those that believe that the world is what it is and our knowledge about it is an abstract overlay on top of it from those that believe that concepts have an independent, and at times primary precedence over physical reality. (That’s a messy sentence, but I have no time for thinking very much about any of this today.) The Platonic / non-Platonic dichotomy is, I think, the fundamental philosophical divide between the various viewpoints that get expressed here at UD.
jdk
March 29, 2018
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Eugene S @ 130, Upright Biped @ 141, Eric Anderson @ 157 - I'm not sure any of you are getting my point. Eric writes that "there is information in biology", and he's right. But biology is a scientific study. My point is that information is a concept we (humans) use in trying to understand the world, it's not intrinsically part of the world outside of our theorising about it.Bob O'H
March 29, 2018
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Eric Anderson:
ET, in terms of information, what is the difference between what we see in DNA and what we see in a rock?
It depends. What DNA are you talking about? DNA that doesn't code for anything is pretty much the same information as a rock. DNA that codes for a functional protein has that- functional information, maybe even CSI, whereas the rock only has the information of its formation.
Take a very simple object, say a smooth cube. Tell me (i) what information is contained in the cube, and (ii) how you located that information.
(i) The information that went into making it. (ii) By understanding how things work.ET
March 29, 2018
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Chemists and physicists have put in thousands of hours of research into figuring out things like this.
Allan Keith, Have they figured it out yet? You are just exposing one of the many Scientismic a/mat inconsistencies. You say scientists are trying to figure out why there is design in nature (you too, are a designer) while simultaneously denying design exists. You poor waifs have a giant crapping elephant in the room. You know there is design in nature, but since you don't know the designer, you suddenly can't see the design. This is not a scientific position, You Who Doth Scream About Science. Oh well. Andrewasauber
March 29, 2018
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JVL: "Anyway, I think it would be best to hear from the ‘designer’ of the code to find out what exactly they were trying to model before making any other assumptions or comments. Fair enough?" Absolutely! :)gpuccio
March 29, 2018
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Eric Anderson JVL, Iceland? ???? Nope, the UK.JVL
March 29, 2018
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gpuccio OK, I don’t think I understand well what this “simulation” is meant to simulate, but for what I understand, as it is reported at #160, I would agree with jdk that it does not seem any realistic simulation of any model of evolution. A very fair comment. And you say something I should have said: what exactly is the simulation trying to simulate. Because . . . But I would say the same thing of all computer simulations of evolution of which I am aware, because no computer simulation I am aware of even tries to simulate NS: they are all examples of Intelligent selection, and therefore mean nothing. As an even more general rule: most models are only trying to get at part of the story. One exception (I believe) are weather models wherein the designers are doing their best to simulate the whole enchilada. Which is why they need massive computers processors. Anyway, I think it would be best to hear from the 'designer' of the code to find out what exactly they were trying to model before making any other assumptions or comments. Fair enough?JVL
March 29, 2018
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JVL: Do you mean respond to this? "If your summary is correct then I agree. That model is not even wrong. Origenes, gpuccio, Upright Biped: you agree I hope." OK, I don't think I understand well what this "simulation" is meant to simulate, but for what I understand, as it is reported at #160, I would agree with jdk that it does not seem any realistic simulation of any model of evolution. But I would say the same thing of all computer simulations of evolution of which I am aware, because no computer simulation I am aware of even tries to simulate NS: they are all examples of Intelligent selection, and therefore mean nothing.gpuccio
March 28, 2018
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JVL: "I can see gpuccio is writing to the blog on other posts so I guess ‘he’s’ choosing not to respond here. Yet, anyway." Respond to what?gpuccio
March 28, 2018
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ET, in terms of information, what is the difference between what we see in DNA and what we see in a rock? Here is an exercise for you: Take a very simple object, say a smooth cube. Tell me (i) what information is contained in the cube, and (ii) how you located that information.Eric Anderson
March 28, 2018
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Allan Keith:
Which sure beats ‘it was designed’ and your minds close after that.
Good, we don't advocate that. We say that saying it was designed is just the start. Now we study it as such and find the software that runs the chemistry.ET
March 28, 2018
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Eric Anderson- Everything contains the information it took to make it, at a minimum. Reverse engineering is all about teasing out that information. That said it doesn't mean it is CSI. Crystals are specified but they are not complex. Random stuff may be complex but it is not specified. Nature hits on both of those but not the CSI. Read No Free Lunch again.ET
March 28, 2018
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Allan Keith:
And carbon is not aimed at being a diamond, and water is not aimed at being a snowflake, yet they are both produced by purely physical/chemical means.
Yes, in a designed world. And neither exhibit CSI
The vast bulk of life today and over the last 3+ billion years has no reasoning capabilities.
Question-begging and irrelevant. There is a reason for itET
March 28, 2018
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And here's Eric's code.
# This idea was originated by Salvador Cordova. from random import random # Initialize the population with # a single organism of length 1. L = 1 pop = [L] # This is the probability a bit will # flip and corrupt the organism. p = 0.01 # Evolve the population. while len(pop) > 0: # Print the largest organism in the population. print(max(pop)) # Initialize the new population. old_pop = pop[:] pop = [] # Create the next population. for L in old_pop: # If the onganism does not become corrupted, # it stays in the gene pool and creates # a shorter and longer offspring. # Otherwise, the organism is removed. if random() > 1-(1-p)**L: pop += [L] if L > 1: pop += [L-1] pop += [L+1] # Cull the population to 1 of each length # so the simulation doesn't crash. pop = list(set(pop))
Now, I have done some programming, and am interested in simulations, especially those which iterate from generation to generation, although I don't know Python, so I can't follow every step exactly. But, in addition to the obvious questions jvl asked (why is length a measure of complexity, what in the world is one child with L+1 and one with L-1 supposed to model, and why is corruption and instant death tied to one "bit flipping"), I'll also note that the "corruption probability" is set to 0.01. What does this represent? I set p =0.0001, and the size of the organism with the longest length (which doesn't represent anything I can think of, but appears to be the number which the program claims shows that evolution is working or not) appears to get bigger and bigger, showing, presumably, that evolution works? This really all make very little sense. I will point out, for those that might find this interesting, that the idea for the program originated with Salvador Cordova.jdk
March 28, 2018
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JVL, Iceland? :)Eric Anderson
March 28, 2018
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Sorry folks, it's 11:30pm where I live so I'll respond to any messages in the morning. Cheers.JVL
March 28, 2018
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Bob O'h @126:
There is no information in the cell . . .
Others are handling this so I won't spend a lot of time on it, other than to say in passing that I truly hope you aren't this misguided. It may be a cute, if annoying, debating distraction to deny the existence of information in biology. But if you really believe this, then you need to go back to square one and start over. There are companies that have been founded, university programs that have been established, an entire discipline that has arisen, specifically to retrieve, study and analyze the information in DNA. It would be hard to imagine a more blatant example of denial than to claim it doesn't exist.Eric Anderson
March 28, 2018
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ET @139:
It takes information to make the atoms. The universe wouldn’t exist without information.
Yes, I'm aware of arguments to that effect. However, even if we grant such an argument and agree that there was some information required to make atoms, it doesn't mean the atoms contain information in and of themselves or that atoms are made up of information or any similar claims. That is a very poor use of terminology and just confuses things. As an aside, I would also note that it plays right into the hands of people who argue that there nothing special about DNA, after all, there is information in everything -- an absurd argument that I have unfortunately encountered from materialists more than once. It is quite clear that what we have in the case of DNA is very different than what we have in the case of a rock floating through space, or atoms, or any other physical object in and of itself. The question on the table is: What do we make of this fact? We must distinguish between (i) information required to make a physical object, (ii) the physical object itself, and (iii) information that may be represented by a particular physical object. Otherwise we are conflating concepts, confusing ourselves, and muddying the discussion.Eric Anderson
March 28, 2018
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I can see gpuccio is writing to the blog on other posts so I guess 'he's' choosing not to respond here. Yet, anyway.JVL
March 28, 2018
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Perhaps Origenes is busy. I will wait for his/her reply. But, thinking it over again . . . I have no clue how complexity is measured or how it is being represented as bit string of length L. I have no idea of how one can use in a model the assumption that each organism will create two offspring, one of slightly more complexity and one of slightly less. Are we not modelling sexual reproduction then? Actually, in the end, that part of the model may not matter anyway, it doesn't seem to be used. Continuing . . . If the probability of corruption was meant to be 1 - ((1-p)**L) then that probability approaches 1 as L gets bigger. If the probability of corruption was meant to be (1 - (1-p))**L then that probability approaches 0 as L increases. Either way it doesn't really make sense. Why should 'complexity' determine fitness? What does corruption mean exactly? How does corruption affect fitness? It's just all too simplistic and not thought out. In my opinion.JVL
March 28, 2018
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Origenes Are you seriously supporting this model? Really?JVL
March 28, 2018
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Right, I made some mathematical mistakes but the system stopped me from editing them in the time limit. IF it's 1 - ((1-p)**L) then that will approach 1 as L increases. But that means you are less and less likely to get something as complex as a human. Anyway, there is no indication of how complexity is measured or how it is represented as a bit string.JVL
March 28, 2018
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