Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

How the scientific method, as currently practised, protects weak or bad theories

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And why it is okay – even necessary -for lay people to critique science theories.

From lawyer and social analyst Edward Sisson: “God of the gaps” assumes that science steadily fills-in gaps. But this is an artifact of the sociological rule that Stephen Jay Gould noted, that widely-accepted theories (i.e., filled-in former gaps) are never rejected until someone comes along to offer a more persuasive replacement theory.

But an existing theory may be false for reasons evident to a rational layperson, due to inherent conflicts in its underlying logic, or due to reliance on falsified assumptions, etc., which a reasoning mind can identify even if the particular person does not have the specialized training necessary to construct an alternative theory. Juries in civil court cases (i.e., laypeople) do this kind of thing hundreds, perhaps thousands, of times each year, in product liability cases, design defect cases, medical malpractice cases, patent infringement cases, etc., where an expert for the plaintiff presents a technical theory and the lawyer for the defense, perhaps relying on an expert, identifies holes in the plaintiff’s theory, without having to develop an alternative theory.

The sociological problem in the science world is that there is no funding for the role of a defense-only advocate, whose only job is to poke holes in the plaintiff’s theory, without having to present an alternative theory. Of course, if the defense CAN present an alternative theory, so much the better; but there is no requirement to do so. In the science world, the only funded career-path is for theory-creators.

In the criminal context, it would be as if defendant X could not simply have a defense counsel, but had to hire his own prosecution team whose job was to prove that mister Z was the real criminal; and the trial would be a competition of presentations between the two prosecution teams, where the jury had to decide that either X or Z did the crime.

If we had a scientific system in which there was a regular, funded career path for people to debunk existing theories, without replacing them, what we would see is that issues once thought to have been answered by science (filled-in gaps) would suddenly go blank again, leaving the gap re-opened, with nothing replacing it. We would not see a steady, but false, impression of gaps being steadily filled.

It is to keep this from happening that we are told that only credentialed scientists are allowed to reject theories, and that laypeople are not allowed to do so.

The problem with this argument is that individuals, by the time they reach college age, are pretty much “set” in their level of intelligence and analytical ability. Many have a sufficient intellectual ability to analyze theories, identify logical inconsistencies, etc. All of these people have the ability, should they wish to, to go into science and develop knowledge necessary to be able to present credible new theories — but only a few do. Those who choose not to, still retain the intellectual ability to discredit theories, and later in life, they may find themselves involved in some situation where they apply their minds to some theory to see if it is internally logically consistent, etc. They cannot be ruled out-of-bounds in this, in deference to those few who chose to develop the additional expertise necessary to construct new theories.

Comments
Well vel, the question I asked: 'start off by proving that materialism, upon which neo-Darwinism is built in the first place, is the true description for the foundation of reality, instead of Theism being the true foundation.' and your evasive response was; 'BA ,all science even the untainted ones like engineering assume material causes. In fact most everyday life does as well. While that doesn’t prove it (materialism as the foundation of reality), it has been pretty effective.' Yet, the elephant in the living room question you avoided was 'did purely material causes cause the entire universe and everything in the universe' or did God do it? Thus we are questioning the materialistic philosophy itself! It is blatantly obvious you cannot impose strict materialistic answers prior to investigation! Shoot even in the engineering example you cited, you yourself would never think to claim that bridges engineered themselves would you?!? Thus why should you even think to claim that the unmatched precision we witness in the universe, with the extremely finely tuned constants, and the unmatched sophistication we find in life, with nano-machines and programming, was produced by purely material processes??? Yet, the most blatant evasive move on your part was ignore the overwhelming evidence from quantum teleportation that gives us sure footing to know that this universe had a transcendent origin, as well as the sure footing to know that this universe is transcendentally maintained! ============== Nickelback - Savin' Me - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JQiEs32SqQbornagain77
August 7, 2011
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BA, Vel as to 22; so you just want to assume your preferred ‘materialistic’ answer into the origins question by allowing only material causes to be considered for an answer in the first place Slow down BA, I never said that material causes were the only explanation to origins. I said science limits itself to material causes. Just like ID limits itself only to the question of whether design appearance is caused by an intelligence. Of course you limit the possible answers but you work within a known framework.velikovskys
August 7, 2011
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Ilion: no, there is nothing dishonest about my question, and nothing "passive-agressive about it either". kf:
ANY intellectual structure that turns out to be logically incoherent fails, per the first principle of right reason known as the law of non-contradiction.
Which was why I asked for an example. It is not clear what this means when applied to a scientific hypothesis.
And, we both know that once evolutionary materialism is grafted unto evolutionary theory,t he system becomes inescapably self-contradictory through unde3rmining the mind itself.
No, I don't know that. Indeed I dispute it. That's why I wanted an example. If this is your example, then can you lay it out in a form that lays bare the self-contradiction of the relevant scientific theory?
Elizabeth Liddle
August 7, 2011
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Ilion, Do you really have that great difficulty comprehending what you read Yes sometimes with BA to be honest, be a pal and simplify the question that I am avoiding...thanksvelikovskys
August 7, 2011
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"Can you give me an example?" An example of passive-aggressive intellectual dishonesty.Ilion
August 7, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Please. ANY intellectual structure that turns out to be logically incoherent fails, per the first principle of right reason known as the law of non-contradiction. And, we both know that once evolutionary materialism is grafted unto evolutionary theory,t he system becomes inescapably self-contradictory through unde3rmining the mind itself. That has been in the public at least since Haldane's rebuke c 1930. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 7, 2011
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If a scientific theory is logically self-contradictory, it fails.
Can you give me an example?Elizabeth Liddle
August 7, 2011
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vel to continue from post 16 on this materialism vs. Theism thing. Materialism presupposed that the universe always existed, yet Theism presupposed that this universe had a beginning and was brought into being from the highest transcendent of God which is not constrained by time and space. And indeed this transcendent origin postulated by Theism is what the evidence of the Big Bang has turned out to confirm in dramatic fashion: Hugh Ross PhD. - Evidence For The Transcendent Origin Of The Universe - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4347185 And as I cited in 16, teleportation experiments have shown that information is dominant of mass-energy, as well as transcendent of space time. So can we now construct a coherent 'top down' Theistic picture of reality, instead of chasing our tail in a circle with the incoherent 'bottom up' materialistic pictures of multiverses??? I believe so. Further reflection on quantum teleportation experiments: That a photon would actually be destroyed upon the teleportation (separation) of its 'infinite' information to another photon is a direct controlled violation of the first law of thermodynamics. (i.e. a photon 'disappeared' from the 'material' universe when the entire information content of a photon was 'transcendently displaced' from the material universe by the experiment, when photon “c” transcendently became transmitted photon “a”). Thus, Quantum teleportation is direct empirical validation for the primary tenet of the Law of Conservation of Information (i.e. 'transcendent' information cannot be created or destroyed). This conclusion is warranted because information exercises direct dominion of energy, telling energy exactly what to be and do in the experiment. Thus, this experiment provides a direct line of logic that transcendent information cannot be created or destroyed and, in information demonstrating transcendence, and dominion, of space-time and matter-energy, becomes the only known entity that can satisfactorily explain where all energy came from as far as the origination of the universe is concerned. That is transcendent information is the only known entity which can explain where all the energy came from in the Big Bang without leaving the bounds of empirical science as the postulated multiverse does. Clearly anything that exercises dominion of the fundamental entity of this physical universe, a photon of energy, as transcendent information does in teleportation, must of necessity possess the same, as well as greater, qualities as energy does possess in the first law of thermodynamics (i.e. Energy cannot be created or destroyed by any known material means according to the first law). To reiterate, since information exercises dominion of energy in quantum teleportation then all information that can exist, for all past, present and future events of energy, already must exist. As well, the fact that quantum teleportation shows an exact 'location dominion', of a photon of energy by 'specified infinite information', satisfies a major requirement for the entity needed to explain the missing Dark Matter. The needed transcendent explanation would have to dominate energy in a very similar 'specified location' fashion, as is demonstrated by the infinite information of quantum teleportation, to satisfy what is needed to explain the missing dark matter. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Moreover, the fact that simple quantum entanglement shows 'coordinated universal control' of entangled photons of energy, by transcendent information, regardless of distance, satisfies a major requirement for the entity which must explain the missing Dark Energy. i.e. The transcendent entity, needed to explain Dark Energy, must explain why the entire space of the universe is expanding in such a finely-tuned, coordinated, degree, and would have to employ a mechanism of control very similar to what we witness in the quantum entanglement experiment. Job 9:8 He stretches out the heavens by Himself and walks on the waves of the sea. Thus 'infinite transcendent information' provides a coherent picture of overarching universal control, and specificity, that could possibly unify gravity with the other forces. It very well may be possible to elucidate, mathematically, the overall pattern God has chosen to implement infinite information in this universe. The following article backs up that this assertion may be possible: Is Unknown Force In Universe Acting On Dark Matter? Excerpt: It is possible that a non-gravitational fifth force is ruling the dark matter with an invisible hand, leaving the same fingerprints on all galaxies, irrespective of their ages, shapes and sizes." ,,Such a force might solve an even bigger mystery, known as 'dark energy', which is ruling the accelerated expansion of the Universe. A more radical solution is a revision of the laws of gravity first developed by Isaac Newton in 1687 and refined by Albert Einstein's theory of General Relativity in 1916. Einstein never fully decided whether his equation should add an omnipresent constant source, now called dark energy. ,,Dr Famaey added, "If we account for our observations with a modified law of gravity, it makes perfect sense to replace the effective action of hypothetical dark matter with a force closely related to the distribution of visible matter.",,, "I discovered that nature was constructed in a wonderful way, and our task is to find out its mathematical structure" Albert Einstein - The Einstein Factor - Reader's Digest Reflections on the 'infinite transcendent information' framework, as well as on the 'eternal' and 'temporal' frameworks: The weight of mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. Yet, mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light. Whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light, its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight. Special Relativity - Time Dilation and Length Contraction - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY Moreover time, as we understand it, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole 'time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light' concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same 'thought experiment' that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2. Albert Einstein - Special Relativity - Insight Into Eternity - 'thought experiment' video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/ ,,,Yet, even though light has this 'eternal' attribute in regards to our temporal framework of time, for us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, will still only get us to first base as far as quantum entanglement, or teleportation, is concerned. Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 That is to say, traveling at the speed of light will only get us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, 'past and future folding into now', framework of time. This higher dimension, 'eternal', inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not 'frozen within time' yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. "I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein - The Einstein Factor - Reader's Digest "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." Richard Swenson - More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 Experimental confirmation of Time Dilation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Experimental_confirmation It is very interesting to note that this strange higher dimensional, eternal, framework for time, found in special relativity, finds corroboration in Near Death Experience testimonies: 'In the 'spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it's going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.' Mickey Robinson - Near Death Experience testimony 'When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.' Dr. Ken Ring - has extensively studied Near Death Experiences It is also very interesting to point out that the 'light at the end of the tunnel', reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world 'folds and collapses' into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as an observer moves towards the 'higher dimension' of the speed of light, with the 'light at the end of the tunnel' reported in very many Near Death Experiences: Traveling At The Speed Of Light - Optical Effects - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ Here is the interactive website (with link to the math at bottom of page) related to the preceding video; Seeing Relativity - C.M. Savage and A.C. Searle - Department of Physics and Theoretical Physics, Australian National University http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Searle/ The NDE and the Tunnel - Kevin Williams' research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn't walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn't really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different - the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ Also, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, yet, and this is a very big ‘yet’ to take note of; this ‘timeless’ travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. Yet, in quantum teleportation of information, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus ‘pure transcendent information’ is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which ‘It’ resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned). "An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality" Akiane - Child Prodigy Logic also dictates 'a decision' must have been made, by the 'transcendent, eternal, infinite information' from the primary timeless (eternal) reality 'It' inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the necessity for a ‘first mover’ to explain quantum wave collapse. The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914bornagain77
August 7, 2011
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Dr Liddle: If a scientific theory is logically self-contradictory, it fails. And a reasonably intelligent and generally educated person with some familiarity with science can see that. Similarly, just the same ordinary person can see for him or her self that if you impose evolutionary materialism as a controlling a priori, you are begging the question bigtime. As a case in point, observe Lewontin in that infamous 1997 NYRB review article:
. . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [And Anti Evo and other scornfully objecting onlookers, if you think the immediately following words JUSTIFY the above, or significantly change the force of the point, cf the onward notes and further clips and comments at the just linked. Sorry, your unreasonableness -- not to mention just plain spoiled bratty want of basic broughtupcy -- is what is increasingly on display. (Other onlookers, I am here responding to some things of such astonishing sophomoric dismissiveness, incivility and just plain rudeness, that you would have to see to believe. It has also not registered with such that in the present circumstances of an outing therat that tried to say, mafioso style: we know you, we know where you are, we know those you care for, continued outing tactics are an endorsement of such threats. This utterly reveals and exposes the plain, demonically shameless moral bankruptcy of such evolutionary materialist ideology in action.)]
Origins science, under such controlling a prioris, is in a first class mess. The emperor is naked beneath that lab coat. We must not ever allow a reigning orthodoxy in science get away with hiding behind the holy lab coat. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 7, 2011
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Hi, news: Logged in this morning as there are a couple of threads I owe responses to, but could not help but respond to this:
But an existing theory may be false for reasons evident to a rational layperson, due to inherent conflicts in its underlying logic, or due to reliance on falsified assumptions, etc., which a reasoning mind can identify even if the particular person does not have the specialized training necessary to construct an alternative theory.
I think this is fundamentally wrong. Many scientific theories have resulted from questioning basic premises, and indeed, by advancing conflicting hypotheses for the same phenomena. A lay person can easily find fault with scientific theories - after all, relativity and quantum mechanics are incompatible, ditto wave and particle models of light. And who would have thought that light could have constant speed regardless of how fast the observer is moving? This is why scientific theories are not so much "false" (pace Popper) as inadequate. Nonetheless, in some circs they may be useful.
Juries in civil court cases (i.e., laypeople) do this kind of thing hundreds, perhaps thousands, of times each year, in product liability cases, design defect cases, medical malpractice cases, patent infringement cases, etc., where an expert for the plaintiff presents a technical theory and the lawyer for the defense, perhaps relying on an expert, identifies holes in the plaintiff’s theory, without having to develop an alternative theory.
Which is why science is fundamentally different from law. Juries must reject a "theory" in law if it doesn't meet some standard of likelihood that is far far laxer than the standard we use in science for rejecting the null. And, unlike science, when, in law, you convict (do not reject the theory) you consider it proven. Nothing is proven in science. Indeed, nothing is proveable in science because all models are incomplete.
The sociological problem in the science world is that there is no funding for the role of a defense-only advocate, whose only job is to poke holes in the plaintiff’s theory, without having to present an alternative theory. Of course, if the defense CAN present an alternative theory, so much the better; but there is no requirement to do so. In the science world, the only funded career-path is for theory-creators.
I think this is a complete misunderstanding of scientific methodology, and also simply wrong. Much of science relies on null-hypothesis testing. The essence of null-hypothesis testing is to "poke holes in the plaintiff's theory", and this is done "without having to present an alternative theory". The null is not an "alternate theory". Some scientific methods do test alternative theories, and it's a much more exciting when that happens. But unfortunately, this is rarer. So far from "the only funded career-path" (lol) being for "theory-creators", the entire role of that [under-]funded career-pursuer is to poke holes in not only her own theories, but to submit those theories for hole-poking by others and to do the same in return. You could describe the entire edifice of science as the process of trying to saw off the branch you have just stepped on to.
If we had a scientific system in which there was a regular, funded career path for people to debunk existing theories, without replacing them, what we would see is that issues once thought to have been answered by science (filled-in gaps) would suddenly go blank again, leaving the gap re-opened, with nothing replacing it. We would not see a steady, but false, impression of gaps being steadily filled. It is to keep this from happening that we are told that only credentialed scientists are allowed to reject theories, and that laypeople are not allowed to do so.
No, you are not "told" that. But if you want to reject a theory, it helps if you've spent some time learning some science, and usually, if you do, you find yourself with a "credential". Not always. Some of the best work is sometimes done by people still on the way to their "credentials".
The problem with this argument is that individuals, by the time they reach college age, are pretty much “set” in their level of intelligence and analytical ability.
I disagree. Analytical ability improves with technique, like most abilities, and scientific training is training in analysis. Also IQ (even if that is what you mean by "intelligence") is fluid over time (and is age-normed anyway). There's a heuristic that says that you need 10 years in a domain before you make any impact on it. I don't know if it's true, but it certainly seems to me to be true that the way you look at any domain (and I've trained in three rather different domains) deepens immeasurably the longer you remain immersed in that domain, learning its techniques, and internalising its knowledge-base. Even your perceptual abilities improve.
Many have a sufficient intellectual ability to analyze theories, identify logical inconsistencies, etc. All of these people have the ability, should they wish to, to go into science and develop knowledge necessary to be able to present credible new theories — but only a few do. Those who choose not to, still retain the intellectual ability to discredit theories, and later in life, they may find themselves involved in some situation where they apply their minds to some theory to see if it is internally logically consistent, etc. They cannot be ruled out-of-bounds in this, in deference to those few who chose to develop the additional expertise necessary to construct new theories.
I find this so wrong it's hard to know where to start! But perhaps the place to start is with the idea that somehow "creating theories" is a different kind of activity to "discredit[ing]" theories". It isn't. It's all part of a single project, which is the core of the scientific project, namely, hypothesis testing. A hypothesis is not a hypothesis until it's testable; and what you do when you have a hypothesis is test it - namely attempt to demonstrate that it is not true. And the test of a hypothesis, in science, is empirical. It need not even be "logical". After all, once it was clear, empirically, that light was a wave, what logical basis was there for testing whether it behaved like a particle? "Pull the funding! This hypothesis has already been falsified!" Sure, it is possible for a lay-person to say: hang on, but surely, there is a problem here....?" And there is nothing to stop anyone doing so. But if that lay person wants to be taken seriously, then they have to do more than say: "but this doesn't make sense". Science is not like math. Scientific models don't have to make sense - what they have to do is predict data. Of course, if they do make sense, they are more likely to predict the data, and if you get lucky, and put forward a non-sensical hypothesis that does turn out to predict the data, then with luck another scientist will come along and say: look, there's a far more sensible hypothesis that does just the same, and moreover, predicts these observations which your hypothesis theory doesn't". But not always. Science remains full of hypotheses that are, at some level, inconsistent with each other, or require assumptions about relationships that we do not (yet) have an explanation for, or even make no sense at all, yet predict our observations remarkably well. And I think this misunderstanding, exemplified in your post, goes to the heart of what is wrong with ID as science. I frequently read (Barry has a post right now on this) that ID isn't about the nature of the designer, merely about demonstrating the signature of design. This suggests that ID proponents think you can do science in the abstract, from an armchair, using math alone, and eschewing the iterative, empirical process that is scientific methodology. In other words, it's pre-Enlightenment thinking - the kind of thinking that Galileo helped revolutionise. Empiricism is messy. It means having an explanatory idea, playing with it, seeing if you can derive testable hypotheses from it ("if this is true, then we might expect to see this....), testing them, using the results to modify your original idea, etc. But it is also rigorous - models (theories, hypotheses) are fitted to data, not the other way round. No model fits any data perfectly, but some fit better than others. Mostly you get a better fit by modifying your model to include some additional factor. Sometimes you find your model ends up with so many additional bits and pieces, that a simpler model, though explaing no more data (occasionally less), does so more efficiently (parsimoniously). After all, Ptolomaic astrolabes work fine, they just use more cogs than Copernican ones. And both are wrong, as Kepler showed. Where ID needs to start, IMO, is: OK, life looks designed. I wonder why? What kind of design process might produce such a thing? What characteristics does this design process have? Do species adapt because of some kind of "front-loading" of the genome, or by some kind of "injection" of design at the variance-creation part of the process? Or are there some hidden laws, built into the universe, that we have yet to discover, that makes useful variance in living things more likely than mere chance would suggest? In which case, are these laws what we might call "Necessity", or something else? And what do we mean by "design"? Are we talking about intentional design? What do we mean by intention? How do we recognise it in the output of human designers, or in the make-up of human designers? Are these properties observable in our putative designer's output? And if ID goes down this path, then it deserves to be taken seriously. I'd take it seriously. Indeed I do, and it has taught me things not only about the evolution of life but the nature of intelligence and intention and design. But if you think that ID can succeed simply by means of lay people pointing out apparent flaws in the standard model, then I suggest you are deeply wrong. The people pointing out the real flaws in the standard model, are in fact, scientists, and they do it every day of their working lives (and often well into their non-working lives too). And the reason they can do it so well is that they have spent years training (acquiring credentials on the way, usually, but that's epiphenomenal) in the kind of empirical, mathematical, logical, and analytical techniques they need to do the job.Elizabeth Liddle
August 7, 2011
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vel; you ask: 'Really, I did not know that, what information was that?' All information; Information? What Is It Really? Professor Andy McIntosh http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4739025/ Vel as to 22; so you just want to assume your preferred 'materialistic' answer into the origins question by allowing only material causes to be considered for an answer in the first place??? How very 'scientific' of you to allow only your preferred answer to be considered as a possible answer.bornagain77
August 7, 2011
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Velikovskys @ 22, Do you really have that great difficulty comprehending what you read? Or are you just trying to change the subject?Ilion
August 7, 2011
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BA, start off by proving that materialism, upon which neo-Darwinism is built in the first place, is the true description for the foundation of reality, instead of Theism being the true foundation. Does it matter which god is the foundation or is it just the belief in a generic god.? BA ,all science even the untainted ones like engineering assume material causes. In fact most everyday life does as well. While that doesn't prove it, it has been pretty effective.velikovskys
August 7, 2011
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BA : Yet the only thing that we know of that is completely transcendent of space-time, matter-energy is information. Really, I did not know that, what information was that?velikovskys
August 6, 2011
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Mung: I got my degree in stupidity online. You're lucky, it took me six years in college .velikovskys
August 6, 2011
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GilDodgen: Some of the most stupid ideas come from “experts in the field,” especially, and almost exclusively in academia There is some truth in that The entire “lay people” argument is an attempt by those in power and with influence to defend stupid stuff that anyone can recognize is stupid, except those with Ph.D.s in stupid stuff. And then of course off the rails, it is not a conspiracy to expect critics to be versed in the actual argument they are criticizing . Once again,ID proponents are constantly haranguing opponents for not understanding why to ask for the actual calculation of csi in an organism is completely ignorant . As experts in the field they realize this is a too basic question to deem with an answer. Likewise this is how many scientists might feel if their theories involving complex mathematical equations are dismissed as unpersuasive by a layman who struggled with algebra . Unimpressed. You have to know enough to know what the actual argument is. This seems pretty basic stuff.velikovskys
August 6, 2011
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I got my degree in stupidity online.Mung
August 6, 2011
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Some of the most stupid ideas come from "experts in the field," especially, and almost exclusively in academia, which is the great engine of stupid stuff ever devised (except in real science which has not yet been completely polluted, like engineering). Remember Whole Language, which "describes a literacy philosophy which emphasizes that children should focus on meaning and strategy instruction" instead of learning how to read? This academic nonsense destroyed the literacy of an entire generation of young people. It was stupid from the outset and obviously so. The entire "lay people" argument is an attempt by those in power and with influence to defend stupid stuff that anyone can recognize is stupid, except those with Ph.D.s in stupid stuff.GilDodgen
August 6, 2011
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vel, perhaps I can help you along on this materialism vs. Theism thing and give you some stuff to chew on.,,, from the best scientific evidence we now have we have very good reason to believe that the entire universe came into origination at the Big Bang. Not only was all mass-energy brought into being, but space-time itself was also brought into being at the Big Bang!!! Thus it logically follows that whatever brought the universe into being had to be transcendent of space-time, mass-energy. Yet the only thing that we know of that is completely transcendent of space-time, matter-energy is information. Thus the question becomes did information bring space-time, mass-energy into being?,,, simple enough question, but how do we prove it vel? It turns out that quantum teleportation breakthroughs have shed light directly on this question!,,, Here are a few experiments establishing the 'information theoretic' origin of this universe, as well as establishing the information theoretic 'sustaining' of this universe; How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. --- As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf ,,,This following experiment shows that the teleportation of 'infinite' information is instantaneous;,,, Researchers Succeed in Quantum Teleportation of Light Waves - April 2011 Excerpt: In this experiment, researchers in Australia and Japan were able to transfer quantum information from one place to another without having to physically move it. It was destroyed in one place and instantly resurrected in another, “alive” again and unchanged. This is a major advance, as previous teleportation experiments were either very slow or caused some information to be lost. http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-04/quantum-teleportation-breakthrough-could-lead-instantanous-computing ,,,Whereas this experiment shows that quantum information is 'conserved',,, Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html ,,,The following articles show that even atoms (Ions) are subject to 'instantaneous' teleportation:,,, Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts ,,,Moreover, when the wave state (superposition), which is defined as infinite information, collapses to its particle state, it turns out that the particle state can only convey one bit of information to any particular observer in the universe at a time: Zeilinger's principle The principle that any elementary system carries just one bit of information. This principle was put forward by the Austrian physicist Anton Zeilinger in 1999 and subsequently developed by him to derive several aspects of quantum mechanics. http://science.jrank.org/pages/20784/Zeilinger%27s-principle.html#ixzz17a7f88PM Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation: ,,,moreover, encoded information, such as we find encoded in computers, and yes, such as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of 'conserved' quantum information: Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy - June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that "more than complete knowledge" from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, "This doesn't mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine." The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what's known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says "We're working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm John 1:1-3 In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. etc.. etc..bornagain77
August 6, 2011
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vel, you ask,,, 'What do you want me to prove? That evolution is possible?' Hmmm that would be nice, but perhaps you can also start off by proving that materialism, upon which neo-Darwinism is built in the first place, is the true description for the foundation of reality, instead of Theism being the true foundation. Don't you agree that establishing a proper philosophical foundation in science, before entertaining further conjecture, is the proper path to take??? ============== Alter Bridge – Rise Today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYG3BPvFOgsbornagain77
August 6, 2011
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BA , What do you want me to prove? That evolution is possible?velikovskys
August 6, 2011
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vel, Hey I'm open, break your best 'expert' out and let's see what kind of evidence he's got. Everything I've ever seen from neo-Darwinists has always fell apart upon critical scrutiny and has ALWAYS turned out to be smoke, bluster, and mirrors, but perhaps you can privy us to this 'secret knowledge' that is kept so well hidden from us ignorant, unwashed, masses!bornagain77
August 6, 2011
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Lamarck, Sorry you lost me, just to be sure,are you arguing that my opinion on brain sugery is equal to a brain surgeon's?velikovskys
August 6, 2011
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BA, I agree that Dawkins opinion of how life started is of equal weight as yours. The rest of your post ,sorry life is too short.The fun is in a real human conversation.velikovskys
August 6, 2011
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Ilion, I think I agree with you that an alternate theory is not necessary to find problems with a theory,with peer review an alternate theory for the evidence is not required to critique the findings of a paper,of course again as a non professional.velikovskys
August 6, 2011
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Eric Anderson: "The demand that others “provide an alternative theory” is typically a defense mechanism by someone who doesn’t want to acknowledge that there are serious objections to their own theory." Exactly. Such persons are saying, "How dare you raise objections to my (pet) theory unless and until you can offer me one I will accept as a replacement for it!" Or, to put it another, and more blunt, way, they are saying, "How dare you raise objections to my (pet) theory unless and until you can reformulate it so as to disguise the points to which you have objected!"Ilion
August 6, 2011
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v, if there is a pyramid of knowledge and the capstone is a wild guess, refuted by it's own evidence the further down you go into specialization...you can safely criticize.lamarck
August 6, 2011
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vel states: 'However (much) weight your criticism is given depends on your actual knowledge. Dawkins: I told you we don't know. Stein: So you have no idea how life first started? Dawkins: Nor does anybody! Richard Dawkins Vs. Ben Stein - The UFO Interview - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4134259/ =============== Materialistic Basis of the Cambrian Explosion is Elusive: BioEssays Vol. 31 (7):736 - 747 - July 2009 Excerpt: "going from an essentially static system billions of years in existence to the one we find today, a dynamic and awesomely complex system whose origin seems to defy explanation. Part of the intrigue with the Cambrian explosion is that numerous animal phyla with very distinct body plans arrive on the scene in a geological blink of the eye, with little or no warning of what is to come in rocks that predate this interval of time." ---"Thus, elucidating the materialistic basis of the Cambrian explosion has become more elusive, not less, the more we know about the event itself, and cannot be explained away by coupling extinction of intermediates with long stretches of geologic time, despite the contrary claims of some modern neo-Darwinists." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/06/bioessays_article_admits_mater.html The Law of Physicodynamic Insufficiency - Dr David L. Abel - November 2010 Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.”,,, After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” http://www.scitopics.com/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Insufficiency.html The GS (genetic selection) Principle – David L. Abel – 2009 Excerpt: Stunningly, information has been shown not to increase in the coding regions of DNA with evolution. Mutations do not produce increased information. Mira et al (65) showed that the amount of coding in DNA actually decreases with evolution of bacterial genomes, not increases. This paper parallels Petrov’s papers starting with (66) showing a net DNA loss with Drosophila evolution (67). Konopka (68) found strong evidence against the contention of Subba Rao et al (69, 70) that information increases with mutations. The information content of the coding regions in DNA does not tend to increase with evolution as hypothesized. Konopka also found Shannon complexity not to be a suitable indicator of evolutionary progress over a wide range of evolving genes. Konopka’s work applies Shannon theory to known functional text. Kok et al. (71) also found that information does not increase in DNA with evolution. As with Konopka, this finding is in the context of the change in mere Shannon uncertainty. The latter is a far more forgiving definition of information than that required for prescriptive information (PI) (21, 22, 33, 72). It is all the more significant that mutations do not program increased PI. Prescriptive information either instructs or directly produces formal function. No increase in Shannon or Prescriptive information occurs in duplication. What the above papers show is that not even variation of the duplication produces new information, not even Shannon “information.” http://www.bioscience.org/2009/v14/af/3426/3426.pdf http://www.us.net/life/index.htm "LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW: Why Darwinian Evolution Cannot Create Biological Information": http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ The DNA Enigma - Where Did The Information Come From? - Stephen C. Meyer - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4125886 etc.. etc.. etc.. ================ Perhaps the neo-Darwinian high priest of today are much like the gnostic high priests of old, 'special' priest who were the only ones entrusted, by their god, with the 'secret knowledge' necessary to go to heaven??? Then again the neo-Darwinian high priests of today seem to be much more akin to 'The Wizard of Oz' behind the curtain; Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WEbornagain77
August 6, 2011
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Lamarck, Chances of making a valid point increase if you know what you are talking about,right? Otherwise it is just Chance.velikovskys
August 6, 2011
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v, no it doesn't depend on your knowledge, it depends on if you make a valid point. There ya go.lamarck
August 6, 2011
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