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How to take down NDE

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I recently came across a very interesting post at Watts Up With That? which provides an object lesson in how to demolish the claims of neo-Darwinian evolution.

According to the post:

A cross examination of global warming science conducted by the University of Pennsylvania’s Institute for Law and Economics has concluded that virtually every claim advanced by global warming proponents fail to stand up to scrutiny….

Professor Johnson, who expressed surprise that the case for global warming was so weak, systematically examined the claims made in IPCC publications and other similar work by leading climate establishment scientists and compared them with what is found in the peer-edited climate science literature. He found that the climate establishment does not follow the scientific method. Instead, it “seems overall to comprise an effort to marshal evidence in favor of a predetermined policy preference.”

“What’s the relevance of this to neo-Darwinian evolution?” I hear you ask. Simple. If NDE is to be considered an adequate theory, it has to have a model which can account for the kind of complexity we observe in living things today. It doesn’t. If you want a clearcut example, think of the Cambrian explosion. No-one has a quantitative scientific model of how that happened.

For years, though, NDE has been accepted by a large section of the public as established fact, simply because there is a vast amount of evidence for material continuity between all kinds of organisms (especially the underlying genetic similarities). That, coupled with the very strong evidence for a nested hierarchy linking organismic traits in different creatures, certainly points to common ancestry.

What neo-Darwinian evolution doesn’t do, however, is explain form – the emergence of new structures at all levels, from micro to macro. And a successful theory of life has to do just that. A competent expose by a lawyer with good cross-examining skills – like the one done on man-made global warming recently – could serve to discredit NDE in the public mind. It could also serve as the basis of a legal challenge to the way evolution is taught at schools – as an all-inclusive theory of biology, in the same way that atomic theory is of chemistry. If we can convince the public at large that there is a large slab of biology that NDE can’t explain, then we willhave knocked it off its perch as a Big Theory. It will no longer seem really important – at best, it will be just part of a much bigger picture.

Comments
Seversky,
So I read, but all it proves is that, on that day, Chesterton had the better of the debate in the opinion of the majority of the audience. Like all such debates, it proves nothing about religion or science.
Don't you try to do the same here almost every day? Prove something about science? And do you think that since the "audience" was who was convinced that Chesterton was right, couldn't the same be said about one judge at Dover thinking that the ACLU was right? At least Chesterton convinced thousands of people, whereas the ACLU only convinced one. Now can you imagine, asking only one person in Chesterton's audience who won?Clive Hayden
June 12, 2010
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Seversky,
Those promoting it were not motivated by financial gain. It was clearly a stratagem to claim unearned scientific respectability, and hence political influence, for their personal religious beliefs.
You being an empiricist who believes the only real things that exist are physical objects, where is the physical evidence of such a claim about motivations? Did hidden motivations fall onto the floor from the pockets of ID folks at that trial? Do you still believe that reason, logic and mathematics do not exist because you cannot stub your toe against them? I don't mean to change the subject, but you act as if things are "clear" as if " objectively true" when you want them to be, such as motivations at Dover, but reject them when it comes to moral or mathematical motivations. Excuse me if I point out this contradiction. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You must say that it was not at all "clear" much less "true" given that motivations do not physically exist. I like the double standard that you impose to bolster your non-existent (because it is not in your front yard) philosophy.Clive Hayden
June 12, 2010
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bornagain,
One would think the stunning lack of gradualism between any phyla in the fossil record, noted by leading paleontologists no less, would falsify the evolutionary hypothesis....
You would certainly think so. Anymore, I am convinced it's a "science" without any real falsification criteria. They assume it first, retrofit data to it, and have a ready-made just-so story as an explanation when it is inadequate.Clive Hayden
June 12, 2010
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Seversky, here is the formal falsification of your philosophical basis. i.e. materialism: The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4744145 Further Note: Materialism compared to Theism within the scientific method http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dc8z67wz_5fwz42dg9 But what should be of extremely more important concern to you Seversky, What are the eternal consequences for you being so stubbornly wrong about Theism? "What If" Nichole Nordeman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUGQFH03apcbornagain77
June 12, 2010
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Seversky you need to go to the bank and check your balance again, that is a minus sign, not a plus sign, before your assets, evolution is not paying you any dividends whatsoever, in fact it is sucking you completely dry of any credibility you ever had of intellectual solvency. Darwin's Unpaid Debt - William Dembski - video http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/29318002bornagain77
June 12, 2010
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Seversky, Methinks you are much to easily led astray by your imagination: Tiktaalik Blown "Out of the Water" by Earlier Tetrapod Fossil Footprints - January 2010 Excerpt: The tracks predate the oldest tetrapod skeletal remains by 18 Myr and, more surprisingly, the earliest elpistostegalian fishes by about 10 Myr. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/01/tiktaalik_blown_out_of_the_wat.html Tiktaalik- Out Of Order Excerpt: One of the problems with an evolutionary interpretation of the fishapods is that these creatures appear to be out of order. http://www.reasons.org/OutofOrder One would think the stunning lack of gradualism between any phyla in the fossil record, noted by leading paleontologists no less, would falsify the evolutionary hypothesis, yet evolution has steadfastly resisted falsification by this method. The following article clearly points out how evolutionists are able to avoid falsification by the crushing lack of evidence for gradualism between phyla found in the fossil record: Seeing Ghosts in the Bushes (Part 2): How Is Common Descent Tested? - Paul Nelson - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: Fig. 6. Multiple possible ad hoc or auxiliary hypotheses are available to explain lack of congruence between the fossil record and cladistic predictions. These may be employed singly or in combination. Common descent (CD) is thus protected from observational challenge. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/02/seeing_ghosts_in_the_bushes_pa.html Partial List Of Fossil Groups - (without the artificially imposed dotted lines) - Timeline Illustration: http://www.earthhistory.org.uk/wp-content/majorgroups.jpg "In virtually all cases a new taxon appears for the first time in the fossil record with most definitive features already present, and practically no known stem-group forms." Fossils and Evolution, TS Kemp - Curator of Zoological Collections, Oxford University, Oxford Uni Press, p246, 1999 I suppose Seversky you are also much too forgiving of the ample supply of failed predictions for neo-Darwinism: Darwin’s Predictions - Cornelius Hunter http://www.darwinspredictions.com/ Failed Predictions of Evolutionists - Cornelius Hunter - audio http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2009-11-09T15_20_49-08_00 Whereas the predictions of Intelligent Design are doing quite well (Thank You for asking Seversky): Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) (D. Abel) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Intelligent Design, contrary to what many evolutionists say publicly, does in fact make solid predictions that we can test: A Response to Questions from a Biology Teacher: How Do We Test Intelligent Design? - March 2010 Excerpt: Regarding testability, ID (Intelligent Design) makes the following testable predictions: (1) Natural structures will be found that contain many parts arranged in intricate patterns that perform a specific function (e.g. complex and specified information). (2) Forms containing large amounts of novel information will appear in the fossil record suddenly and without similar precursors. (3) Convergence will occur routinely. That is, genes and other functional parts will be re-used in different and unrelated organisms. (4) Much so-called “junk DNA” will turn out to perform valuable functions. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/03/a_response_to_questions_from_a.htmlbornagain77
June 12, 2010
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Clive Hayden @ 12
Evolution wasn’t on trial like it was at Scopes, and Scopes lost at that trial, 66 years after Darwin’s On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life was published.
As I think we all know now, although it was promoted as a confrontation between religion and science, the trial at Dayton was technically about whether Scopes had broken the law by teaching the theory of evolution in contravention of Tenessee's Butler Act. It was established that he had and so was found guilty but got off because of a procedural error in the sentencing. In reality, the trial was got up as a publicity stunt by businessmen and prominent citizens of Dayton in an attempt to revive to local economy. At Dover, the court found that the statement that was required to be read out before science classes was, in effect, an unconstitutional attempt to gain a foothold for a particular religious movement in the science curriculum. Those promoting it were not motivated by financial gain. It was clearly a stratagem to claim unearned scientific respectability, and hence political influence, for their personal religious beliefs.
By the way, G. K. Chesterton debated Clarence Darrow after that trial, and defeated him quite handily.
So I read, but all it proves is that, on that day, Chesterton had the better of the debate in the opinion of the majority of the audience. Like all such debates, it proves nothing about religion or science.Seversky
June 12, 2010
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bornagain77 @ 11
Seversky, you seem to revel in the fact that evolutionists were able to hoodwink the public at Dover, yet you know far better than what was spoon fed to the public at Dover.
No, if I revel in anything it is that a hoodwinking of the public was prevented at Dover.
Thus my question to you is this, Since you know the glaring deficiencies of neo-Darwinism, What is your excuse for following such a bankrupt theory?
The theory of evolution has paid ample dividend on the time and effort that has been invested in it. When ID can makes successful predictions like that of Tiktaalik then it could be considered for discharge from its own intellectual bankruptcy.Seversky
June 12, 2010
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All the different eyes appeared during the Cambrian. I believe one of our more ardent ID skeptics pointed out that vision requires the coordinated cascade of 2000 separate proteins to happen. This ardent skeptic still had faith that random processes produced this incredibly coordinated sequence. Since that time, essentially no new vision systems have appeared. Curious phenomena since there has been more time since the Cambrian than time before it for multi-cellular processes to accumulate. I wonder how many of the irreducibly complex processes that we find in the world today, date back to the Cambrian? Is it possible to find points in time where some of these processes originated that is different?jerry
June 12, 2010
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Seversky,
And we all know how well this strategy turned out for the movement at Dover.
Evolution wasn't on trial like it was at Scopes, and Scopes lost at that trial, 66 years after Darwin's On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life was published. By the way, G. K. Chesterton debated Clarence Darrow after that trial, and defeated him quite handily. Clive Hayden
June 12, 2010
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Seversky, you seem to revel in the fact that evolutionists were able to hoodwink the public at Dover, yet you know far better than what was spoon fed to the public at Dover. (i.e. you personally know for a fact that Darwinism has no valid scientific support by your participation here on UD) Thus my question to you is this, Since you know the glaring deficiencies of neo-Darwinism, What is your excuse for following such a bankrupt theory?bornagain77
June 11, 2010
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vjtorley; thanks for the link on the Darwin's Dilemma: Here is a cool link, I found yesterday, related to Darwin's Dilemma as well: Exotic Cambrian Animals and Plants - Animated videos http://www.lightproductionsvideo.com/Cambrian-Animals.htmlbornagain77
June 11, 2010
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A competent expose by a lawyer with good cross-examining skills – like the one done on man-made global warming recently – could serve to discredit NDE in the public mind. It could also serve as the basis of a legal challenge to the way evolution is taught at schools – as an all-inclusive theory of biology, in the same way that atomic theory is of chemistry. If we can convince the public at large that there is a large slab of biology that NDE can’t explain, then we willhave knocked it off its perch as a Big Theory. It will no longer seem really important – at best, it will be just part of a much bigger picture.
Be careful what you wish for. It is not so long ago that William Dembski wrote, in anticipation of a forthcoming court case:
Thus, in a crucial way, the Kansas hearings repeat the pattern set by the Scopes Trial, which hasbeen repeated many times since, namely, evolutionists escaped critical scrutiny by not having toundergo cross-examination. In this case, they accomplished the feat by boycotting the hearings. I therefore await the day when the hearings are not voluntary but involve subpoenas that compel evolutionists to be deposed and interrogated at length on their views. There are ways for this to happen, and the wheels are in motion (e.g., Congressional hearings over the teaching of biology in federally funded high schools for military kids). For such hearings to have the desired effect, however, will require that evolutionists be asked the right questions. What I propose in this document (henceforth “The Vise Document”) is to lay out a strategy for interrogating the Darwinists to, as it were, squeeze the truth out of them.
And we all know how well this strategy turned out for the movement at Dover.Seversky
June 11, 2010
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camanintx- "Water flows into an empty vessel much faster than into a full one, but that doesn’t mean new theories of fluid motion are needed to describe it. -How fast does it have to get before you start feeling uncomfortable with NDE’s inane conjectures?- Apparently much higher than they are." Comparing evolution to water flowing into an empty vessel is a level of reductionism that is incomprehensibly absurd.Phaedros
June 11, 2010
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camanintx (#2): Thank you for your post. Just a couple of quick comments: (1) As I see it, the critical problem with the Cambrian expolsion is not the rate of morphological change, but the sudden appearance of dozens of new cell types. This was an evolutionary "quantum leap." You might like to have a look at Dr. Stephen Meyer's 2004 paper at http://www.discovery.org/a/2177 - especially the part on the Cambrian information explosion. (2) To measure rates of evolution back then, you need to know where Cambrian phyla came from in the first place. The alleged Precambrian ancestors of Cambrian phyla don't appear very plausible, as the link at http://www.darwinsdilemma.org/pdf/faq.pdf shows.vjtorley
June 11, 2010
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Borne @ 3
Actually, in evolutionary time terms, they were indeed “phenomenally high”.
Water flows into an empty vessel much faster than into a full one, but that doesn't mean new theories of fluid motion are needed to describe it.
How fast does it have to get before you start feeling uncomfortable with NDE’s inane conjectures?
Apparently much higher than they are.camanintx
June 11, 2010
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camanintx: Actually, in evolutionary time terms, they were indeed "phenomenally high". How fast does it have to get before you start feeling uncomfortable with NDE's inane conjectures?Borne
June 11, 2010
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Quote "What neo-Darwinian evolution doesn’t do, however, is explain form – the emergence of new structures at all levels, from micro to macro. " Be careful with how you throw those words around, "micro" and "macro". Relating to evolution, either they are both proven and established with the certainty of the laws of physics, or they both don't exist. Both conclusions usually come from the same evolutionist.Bantay
June 11, 2010
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If NDE is to be considered an adequate theory, it has to have a model which can account for the kind of complexity we observe in living things today. It doesn’t. If you want a clearcut example, think of the Cambrian explosion. No-one has a quantitative scientific model of how that happened.
Could you be exaggerating the importance of the Cambrian explosion? Taking the Pulse of the Cambrian Radiation
Although high rates of evolution may have prevailed during the Cambrian radiation, they were not phenomenally high nor high enough to merit the formulation of new rules of evolution relating to the tempo of speciation.
camanintx
June 11, 2010
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There are nearly 1,300,000 species of animal life on the planet. Pretend that there were 1,300,000 different automobile models produced (yes, this is almost as many as GM makes!). If one representative of each model was randomly distributed across the surface of the moon, and I were to go there and start cataloging, I would create a classification system. There would be compacts with 4 cylinder engines, SUVs with 6 cylinders, pick-up trucks with extended cabs, etc., etc., etc. With 1,300,000 models, you could devise a fairly deep system of classification, in fact. Now, if you had that many different models, there would be many commonalities and similarities in appearance and such. It would appear that the different groups had emerged from a single ancestral vehicle; however, we would all know that it would be an APPEARANCE of common ancestry, not the real explanation. I believe such an analogy works well for understanding the natural world. Darwinians like to talk about the appearance of design, but I believe the appearance of evolution is much stronger countercriticism.OldArmy94
June 11, 2010
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NDE has one thing going for it- it makes for a great narrative. Sell the people the story and all its elegance and simplicity so that they don't even question it. And when people do question it just repeat the narrative. IOW the narrative is the evidence!Joseph
June 11, 2010
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