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ID for Materialists

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Teleology in biology is unavoidable.  Dawkins was surely correct when he wrote that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  He even characterized that appearance as “overwhelming.”  Of course, Dawkins does not believe living things were designed, and his entire project has been to convince his readers that the overwhelming appearance of design is an illusion.

The problem with the “it is all a grand illusion” position is that as science has progressed – even in the relatively short time since Dawkins wrote those words in 1987 – it has become increasingly more difficult to believe.  Advances in our understanding of genetics have revealed a semiotic code of staggering elegance and complexity, the replication of which is far beyond the ability of our best computer programmers.  The more we know about the cell, the more it becomes apparent that it is a marvel of nano-technology.  Origin of life researchers, when they are honest, admit that even the most simple life is miraculously complex, and the likelihood of living things having arose spontaneously through chance interactions of matter is vanishingly small.  I could go on, but you get the picture.

What is an honest materialist to do?  One approach is to jettison materialism altogether, as famous former arch-atheist Antony Flew did.  Flew insisted that while he did not believe in a personal God, he was nevertheless driven to deism by advances in origins of life science.  He wrote that “[t]he philosophical question that has not been answered in origin-of-life studies is this: How can a universe of mindless matter produce beings with intrinsic ends, self-replication capabilities, and ‘coded chemistry’?”  That question remains unanswered.

Another approach is to retain one’s materialism while positing the existence of yet-undiscovered natural telic laws.  This is the approach Thomas Nagel took in his Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False.  It occurred to me recently that this approach may well be the most likely way for honest, curious and courageous materialists to accept the evidence on its own terms and at the same time find common ground with ID proponents.

RDFish is one of the most voracious proponents of materialism (which he prefers to call monist physicalism) ever to appear in these pages.  In one of his comments he argued that biological ID is committed to dualism.  I responded by arguing that while biological ID is certainly consistent with metaphysical dualism, it is not necessarily tied to it, and it can be accepted even by physicalist monists.  See here.

In the linked post I argued that a physicalist monist can accept a version of ID through the following reasoning:

  1. Design, meaning the capacity to arrange matter for a purpose, exists as a category of causation.
  2. The capacity to arrange matter for a purpose can be reduced to any force that is capable of arranging matter in the present so that it will have an effect in the future.
  3. There are at least two candidates for causal forces that have the capacity to arrange matter for a purpose. (a)  intelligent agents who have an immaterial mental capacity; (b) an impersonal non-conscious yet-to-be-discovered natural telic force.
  4. The monist rejects the existence of intelligent agents with immaterial mental capacities, because the existence of such agents obviously entails dualism.
  5. Instead, the monist can resort to the natural telic force.
  6. If such a natural telic force exists, the existence of design as a category of causation is no obstacle to accepting the truth of monist physicalism.

This get us to:

  1. If monist physicalism is true and a natural telic force exists, it is nevertheless possible objectively to infer design.
  2. Therefore, design may be inferred under monist physicalism using the explanatory filter.
  3. Therefore, ID does not depend on dualist metaphysical assumptions and can be accepted by a monist.

Which brings us back to Nagel.  In his book Nagel argued that Neo-Darwinism has failed to account for the data and is therefore almost certainly false.  But Nagel is an inveterate atheist and he is unwilling to give up on atheistic monism.  For Nagel, rejecting Neo-Darwinism does not entail embracing a dualist conception of ID.  Instead, he has posited what can be called a monist conception of ID by proposing the existence of natural telic laws.

In his book Being as Communion Bill Dembski writes that Nagel’s conception of teleology is completely consistent with ID writ large:

Nagel proposes to understand teleology in terms of natural teleological laws.  These laws would be radically different from the laws of physics and chemistry that currently are paradigmatic of the laws of nature.  And yet, as we shall see, such teleological laws fit quite naturally within an information-theoretic framework . . . his proposal, given in Mind and Cosmos . . . connects point for point with the account of information given in this book.  Indeed, Nagel’s teleological laws are none other than the directed searches (or alternative searches) that are the basis of Conservation of Information . . . of this book.

When orthodox Christian theist Bill Dembski says that he and vigorously atheistic materialist Thomas Nagel hold views that can – at a fundamental level – be reconciled, the rest of us should sit up and take notice.  And Dembski is not alone among theists in noting how Nagel’s views are compatible with their tradition broadly construed.  Christian philosopher Edward Feser writes:

[Nagel] rightly suggests that theists ought to be open to the idea of immanent teleology of the Aristotelian sort.  He may not be aware that medieval theologians like Aquinas were committed to precisely that.

Of course, Aquinas believed in the immanent teleology inherent in all things.  The only difference between Aquinas and Nagel is that Aquinas believed that God infused those things with immanent teleology; whereas Nagel believes the teleology results from a natural telic law.  But for our purposes isn’t the obvious teleology – that even Dawkins recognizes while denying – the important thing, at least as an initial question about the objective nature of things?

If theists and materialists can agree about the objective existence of teleology in nature, can we not also agree that – at least while we are doing science – questions about the ultimate provenance of that teleology can be held in abeyance?

I see a number of advantages of this approach for both sides.  For the materialists, the advantages are obvious.  They will be able to accept on face value the common sense conclusion their materialism has until now forced them to deny.  Teleology exists.  And at the same time they will not be forced to allow Lewontin’s dreaded “divine foot” in the door, because a “natural telic law” is not even an agent, far less a divine (or even conscious) agent.  For theists, as I have argued all along, ID can be adopted to both a monist and a dualist metaphysics.  And I, when I am not doing science, will continue to argue that God is the best candidate for the provenance of the teleology.  At the same time, by allowing for the possibility of a natural telic law, we ID proponents will not have the doors of science slammed in our face on account of the “creationism in a cheap tuxedo” argument.

Comments
Zachriel:
So we look for evidence of the designer;
The DESIGN is such evidence, duh.
ID claims that it can determine design while ignoring the entailed links of causation to the who, when, where, why, and how.
That is how science operates, Zachriel. FIRST we determine design exists and only after that do we ask those other questions. Obviously you don't understand how science operates and you think that your ignorance is an argument. Strange...Virgil Cain
January 29, 2016
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Zachriel is so clueless:
If you claim something is designed, then that entails a designer.
Yes, it does. However we don't have to know who that designer was before we can determine design exists. And that is the point that you always ignore as if your ignorance is an argument.
The lack evidence for any of this undermines the claim of design.
Perhaps in your feeble mind. However reality dictates that we only look for a designer, the how, why and when AFTER we have determined design exists and we have studied it.
That’s not the argument, but that the conclusion you have made concerning design is undermined by the lack of evidence for the entailments.
The design has the entailments required. Obviously you are just an ignorant child when it comes to investigating the cause of phenomena.Virgil Cain
January 29, 2016
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SteRusJon: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Absence can be evidence per modus tollens. If you claim something is designed, then that entails a designer. The existence of a designer itself entails characteristics of the designer and the design process; the how, when, where, why, and how. The lack evidence for any of this undermines the claim of design. http://www.zachriel.com/blog/Causation-Science.gif SteRusJon: To argue against a designer in the face of a design is logically invalid. That's not the argument, but that the conclusion you have made concerning design is undermined by the lack of evidence for the entailments. You're saying you know the object is designed, and we're saying that your conclusion is scientifically unfounded. http://www.zachriel.com/blog/Causation-ID.gifZachriel
January 29, 2016
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Zachriel, "Lacking evidence" Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The very presence of design is the evidence of the presence of a designer. A design entails a designer. To argue against a designer in the face of a design is logically invalid. Determine that a thing is designed and a designer becomes a logical necessity. No matter how much you don't like it. No matter how much or little you can learn about the designer scientifically. To learn those things may require venturing outside the scientific method. StephenSteRusJon
January 29, 2016
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SteRusJon: A big part of my beef with Zachriel’s second gif was that it lacked context or justification. He was pictorially saying something but I have no idea what. ID claims that it can determine design while ignoring the entailed links of causation to the who, when, where, why, and how. http://www.zachriel.com/blog/Causation-ID.gif Science, on the other hand, grasps at every possible bit of evidence in order to study the question. To support a claim of design, science looks for the entailed causation; the who, when, where, why, and how. Finding such evidence supports and extends the original claim. The absence of such evidence undermines the claim. http://www.zachriel.com/blog/Causation-Science.gif
Albert: Stonehenge looks designed. Neils: Hmm. Humans are known for building in stone. Albert: The period seems about right. Neils: Look! Remains of humans in the area. Albert: Why do you think they built it? Neils: It's hard to know for sure, but humans have a religious curiosity about the movements of the stars, and Stonehenge seems to be arranged as an observatory of sorts. Albert: Maybe it was aliens. The Orfolei maybe? Neils: Anything is possible, but humans were capable, were in the area, have the motivation. Why they even buried their dead there. Furthermore, you don't see such structures in the absence of humans. Perhaps you have heard of them; a peculiar species of ape living on the third rock from the sun. Albert: No reason to get snarky. They're the sentient beings that think with their meat, right? {shudder} Still, it could have been aliens. Neils: Yes, dear Albert. It could have been aliens.
Or it could have been Bari the dwarf. But the most likely explanation, the one that leads to testable hypotheses is that humans built it.Zachriel
January 29, 2016
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SteRusJon: “Entailment” involves a logical relationship where if something is true, something else is necessarily true. That's right. And the claim that an object is an artifact entails a causal relationship between the artifact, the art, and the artisan. http://www.zachriel.com/blog/Causation-Science.gif The key point is that it isn't a simplistic, determine design first, then work from there; but a consilience of evidence from interrelated aspects of the problem. SteRusJon: The entailment relationship between designer and the designed is that if a thing is designed then there must necessarily have been a designer. Right again! So we look for evidence of the designer; the who, what, when, where, why, and how. Lacking evidence for such obvious entailments undermines the original claim.Zachriel
January 29, 2016
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If you are trying to convince me that what we see in the present is the end-product of guesses, that is, trial and error, you have an uphill battle.
I only needed to impress experienced experimenters who know what's around for cognitive science related models. And in that realm a system that cannot somehow take a guess what to do when confronted with a new situation is not really an example of "intelligence". If you're searching for "all knowing" then you'll have to look where (according to the causation model) that programmatically applies, at the "behavior of matter" level.GaryGaulin
January 28, 2016
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Computer model supported cognitive theory is way more than an assertion, it's "science": http://intelligencegenerator.blogspot.com/ All else are assertions.GaryGaulin
January 28, 2016
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Gary, A big part of my beef with Zachriel's second gif was that it lacked context or justification. He was pictorially saying something but I have no idea what. His first gif seems to try to point oit that the who, whats, whens.... are interrelated. So, tell me something that I don't know. Does he intend for me to conclude that SCIENCE is the only way to understand those relationships? Does SCIENCE fall apart if it cannot peer into one or more of those particulars? I am underwhelmed. Yours is certainly more detailed so I can guess at what it is you are driving at, but in the end, it, too, is no more than assertion. I need context and justification so I know what it is you are trying to get across to me. If you are trying to convince me that what we see in the present is the end-product of guesses, that is, trial and error, you have an uphill battle. StephenSteRusJon
January 28, 2016
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SteRusJon, is my gif more like it? https://sites.google.com/site/intelligenceprograms/Home/Causation.GIFGaryGaulin
January 28, 2016
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Zachriel, I went out and looked at you gif. It is a pictorial assertion on your part, no better than most of your verbal ones. StephenSteRusJon
January 28, 2016
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Zachriel, "Entailment" involves a logical relationship where if something is true, something else is necessarily true. Not a causal relationship. Look it up. The causal relationship between designer and designed, is that the designer causes the designed. The entailment relationship between designer and the designed is that if a thing is designed then there must necessarily have been a designer. It is not true that if there is a designer that an object, or any object, must necessarily be designed. You have not yet grasped Eric's point. StephenSteRusJon
January 28, 2016
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Here is the comparable graph for ID: http://www.zachriel.com/blog/Causation-ID.gif
I can add that in the process of explaining how things work and/or happened theories can also explain who, what, when, where and why. All inside the circle is the text of theory explaining how intelligent cause works. The word "Design" is only in the title of said text, therefore exists outside the circle and does not need to be explained. You can even title it after a Greek goddess. The body of a theory must stand on its own scientific merit for whatever it was premised to explain. In this case that is "intelligent cause" only. Explaining "design" and morphs like "designer" has a way of making unnecessary generalization filled holes in the foundation of the theory. Best to do without them.GaryGaulin
January 28, 2016
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SteRusJon: Your the one that has the entailments concept bass-ackwards. Our position is not "backwards". Our position is that the lack of support for direct entailments undermines the claim. Here is how science views the links of causation: http://www.zachriel.com/blog/Causation-Science.gif StephenB: {ID} is simply a scientific method for detecting design, nothing more. Here is the comparable graph for ID: http://www.zachriel.com/blog/Causation-ID.gifZachriel
January 28, 2016
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The most likely candidate for causal forces that have the capacity to arrange matter for a purpose is the consciousness causing "behavior of matter". There is no need for "yet-undiscovered natural telic laws". That tactic clearly makes the (must be scientific) Theory of Intelligent Design a nonscientific theory, which in turn gives your enemy new evidence against the Discovery Institute and its affiliates for false advertising.GaryGaulin
January 28, 2016
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StephenB, the premise of the Theory of Intelligent Design is quote: "The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." See: http://www.discovery.org/id/faqs/#questionsAboutIntelligentDesign The testable theory must explain how "intelligent cause" works and/or happened. Redefining the theory to be a "scientific method for detecting design" makes it a "scientific method" not a "theory".GaryGaulin
January 28, 2016
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So from "the higher standpoint of philosophical reasoning", ID does require dualism. Is that what you are saying?Aleta
January 28, 2016
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CancelStephenB
January 28, 2016
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ID, by virtue of its scientific approach, makes no prior commitments to dualism or any metaphysical view. It is simply a scientific method for detecting design, nothing more. It argues that category cause (a) cannot explain an instance of purposefully arranged matter, therefore, some other category cause (b) is a better candidate. RDFish is, therefore, wrong to say that ID, as science, "assumes" dualism. However, from the higher standpoint of philosophical reasoning, we cannot leave it there. Everything that exists requires a cause, including any proposed teleological law of nature. Logically, every law requires a lawgiver. (Of course, we know that "law" is an epistemological description of a law-like regularity observed in nature, but we must still explain the arrival and continued existence of that regularity). That brings us to a necessary first cause, an immaterial, self-existent, personal, omnipotent being--outside the physical world--who can choose to create or not create. That's dualism. (A law cannot be the first cause of anything, because a law can only do what it does, and nothing else. It does not have the power to create or not create because it does not have the power to choose. If it had that the power to do something other than what it has always done, it would not be a "law.)" If RDFish had argued in this way, I would have supported him. Unfortunately, he cannot make that argument because he does not acknowledge a first cause and even claims to not know what it means.StephenB
January 28, 2016
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Zachriel, Your the one that has the entailments concept bass-ackwards. That is what Eric was pointing out in his OP. It does not follow from the existence of a designer that anything was ever designed, much less that a specific object was designed. Rather, it follows from the existence of an artifact, that there was a designer. That's what the entailments aspect of the discussion says. That was the point of Eric's discussion and the point you seemed to have missed. Whether we can scientifically uncover anything about the designer is beside the point. The issue is whether we can scientifically come to terms with determining artificiality for an object and convert our gut feelings about what we think shows evidence of design to something amenable to scientific study. Then, maybe, we can draw firm inferences about the entailment that a design must have had a designer of some sort or another. StephenSteRusJon
January 28, 2016
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SteRusJon: The what, when, where and why are linked to the who by causation. Good. SteRusJon: At issue, in this OP, is the limited determination of what (is designed) when the who is indeterminate and, possibly, indeterminable. The lack of scientific support for the direct entailments undermines the claim.Zachriel
January 28, 2016
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Zachriel, No denying it! The what, when, where and why are linked to the who by causation. At issue, in this OP, is the limited determination of what (is designed) when the who is indeterminate and, possibly, indeterminable. Denying the design of what because the who is indeterminate is not what is done in common practice, if ever in a historical context. That was the entire point Eric's piece at the referenced link which was Eric's answer. What Eric clearly pointed out is that inference of design does not follow the chain of causation from who to what. Rather, inference of a designer follows from the observation of a designed what. If you disagree, state your case as to how Eric's logic is flawed. StephenSteRusJon
January 28, 2016
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Eric Anderson: I’m with you. Not an answer. Here's the claim again. The who, what, when, where, why, and how are inextricably linked by causation.Zachriel
January 28, 2016
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SteRusJon: I'm with you. :)Eric Anderson
January 27, 2016
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Eric, I see Zachriel has stopped kicking pebbles. Stephen See: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/back-to-basics-understanding-the-design-inference/ for context of my comment.SteRusJon
January 27, 2016
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@eric anderson wrote: "might be able to at least have a rational discussion about design in, for example, biology, without having to answer the question about the provenance of that design." Design uses the logic of choosing, and with choosing it is cateorically a subjective issue what the agency of a decision is. That means one can only arrive at a conclusion about what the agency of a decision is, by choosing the conclusion, where any chosen conclusion would be valid. That is a matter of logic. Facts use a logic of being forced, a 1 to 1 correspondence between what the fact is about (cause) and the fact (effect), while agency is free, so facts cannot apply to it. The fact that the moon exists, this fact corresponds 1 to 1 with the actual moon, the moon caused the fact of it's existence as an effect. So you can do science about how things are chosen (intelligent design), but the agency of those decisions will be an issue outside of science, because it is categoically subjective. This is the exactsame reason how what is good, loving and beautiful are outside of science, because they are all about agency of decisions.mohammadnursyamsu
January 27, 2016
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Eric Anderson: After all, “Is x designed?” is logically different from the who, where, what, when, why, how follow-up questions. They are inextricably linked by causation. They are direct entailments. Finding support for the entailments would tend to confirm the existential claim, while lacking support for the entailments would tend to undermine the existential claim. In science, all claims are interrelated in this way. The ability to verify or contradict propositions in different ways lends confidence to scientific conclusions.Zachriel
January 27, 2016
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Bob O'H @11: Your point about probing material teleology is quite right, I think. My sense is that the proposed way forward, and perhaps what Barry was getting at in the OP, is whether we might be able to at least have a rational discussion about design in, for example, biology, without having to answer the question about the provenance of that design. At some level, a basic logical level, the answer is clearly "Yes." After all, "Is x designed?" is logically different from the who, where, what, when, why, how follow-up questions. I do agree with you that Nagel's approach doesn't solve the question about the source of the design. And, as I posted earlier, I am exceedingly skeptical of Nagel's idea, to put it mildly.* But if he is at least willing to consider design in nature, then it might be a starting point for a conversation. The willingness to say "design is real" and "unguided Darwinian evolution may not hold the answers" is an important admission, even if the proposed source of the design is pretty questionable.* ----- * It seems Nagel is trading one source of cognitive dissonance for another. The idea of teleological laws might be pretty far out there, but, hey, it is a lot better than the idea of particles bumping into each other and producing living organisms. So accepting design and then positing a nonsensical design source isn't a huge help, but at least it is progress.Eric Anderson
January 26, 2016
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Bob O'H @ 14. I was thinking the same thing.Barry Arrington
January 26, 2016
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Bob O'H:
Virgil – well, it’ll make it more difficult to study, but it may still have left traces. But we won’t know unless we look.
That is what Intelligent Design is about, Bob. And we have found those traces.Virgil Cain
January 26, 2016
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