Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Putting the mind back on the table for discussion

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Design theory infers to design on inductive inference on tested reliable empirical signs. While many are disinclined to accept such inferences on matters linked to origins, that says more about lab coat clad materialist ideological a prioris and their cultural influences than it does about the actual balance of evidence on the merits.

But also, design implies designer.

One who exhibits creative, purposeful, imaginative, skilled intelligence adequate to configure a functionally specific, complex organised information-rich entity. Ranging from the text of this contribution (well beyond the 500 – 1,000 bits of FSCO/I that are easily shown to be beyond the plausible reach of blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of solar system or observed cosmos), to complex body plans, to the DNA code — code! — involved, to first cell-based life to the complex fine tuned cosmos that facilitates the possibility of such life.

But, it seems, genuinely independent, conscious, purposeful, creative designing mind is also under materialist interdict.

Never mind the still telling force of famed Evolutionist J B S Haldane’s apt turn of the 1930’s observation:

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true.They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)]

So, I think it is time to put the mind back on the table.

Starting with the principle that rocks have no dreams:

self_aware_or_not

Which, means that conscious mind is categorically distinct from blind mechanism based on cogs acting blindly on other cogs, or the substantial equivalent.

And continuing with the issue that blind mechanical processing is inherently limited by that blindness . . . a rock has no dreams, including “dust” reconfigured as neural network “gate” arrays:

A neural network is essentially a weighted sum interconnected gate array, it is not an exception to the GIGO principle
A neural network is essentially a weighted sum interconnected gate array, it is not an exception to the GIGO principle

 

I do so here, as there is a video involved that I doubt can be embedded at UD.

So. now, let us ponder the GIGO principle. As wiki aptly summarises (inadvertently testifying against known ideological inclination):

Garbage in, garbage out (GIGO) in the field of computer science or information and communications technology refers to the fact that computers, since they operate by logical processes, will unquestioningly process unintended, even nonsensical, input data (“garbage in”) and produce undesired, often nonsensical, output (“garbage out”).

Yes, blind mechanisms do not ask un-programmed questions and if out of whack or inadequately debugged, will just as blindly spew out garbage. They are utterly unreasoning, glorified calculation devices.

So, I say: GIGO-limited computation is not contemplation.

Again, I say: contemplative, creative designing mind does not credibly emerge from blind chance and mechanical necessity.

Yet again, I say: contemplative mind is categorically different from blindly computing matter, as a rock has no dreams.

So, now, what do you say, why? END

Comments
Hey its been a long time since I've been online here but how can there be a mind and decision making processes when time creates constant copies of yourself and other people? How can we talk to people freely when they are actually just a copy not the real thing?Jaceli123
June 15, 2014
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as to: "I regard the Bible, particularly with regard to the accuracy of the reported words of Jesus, as very unreliable for many reasons" says the man who believes what a spirit named Seth says when talking thru a woman, when she started experimenting with an Ouija Board.,, Yep no bias there,,, believe what you want Mr. David, it is clear you have quite a different way of looking at the evidence than I do.bornagain77
June 15, 2014
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BA77, re. #68: Don't confuse Who You Really Are with your body. Physical bodies are simply structures that we choose to occupy and work within from time to time for the purpose of spiritual growth. re. #s 65--70: Well, the shroud of Turin is certainly an interesting phenomenon. At most what it shows, however, is that Jesus was quite an advanced soul (one of many advanced souls who have lived and taught throughout the ages). There have been other after death miracles related to advanced souls. For example, Yogananda's body showed no evidence of decay for 17 days after his death at which point it was buried. Also, quoting scripture to me is basically wasted. I regard the Bible, particularly with regard to the accuracy of the reported words of Jesus, as very unreliable for many reasons, including the massive number of contradictions among the gospels, the length of time that elapsed between the life of Jesus and the time the gospels were written, the fact that the gospels were written in highly literate Greek whereas Jesus' eyewitnesses were almost certainly illiterate speakers of Aramaic, and the fact that we don't know who wrote them nor how committed those authors were to historical accuracy.Bruce David
June 15, 2014
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I consider the preceding ‘quantum’ nuance on the Shroud of Turin to be a subtle, but powerful, evidence substantiating Christ’s primary claim as to being our Savior from sin, death, and hell:
John 8:23-24 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins. G.O.S.P.E.L. – (the grace of propitiation) – poetry slam – video https://vimeo.com/20960385 Matthew 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Of note:
Biblical Definition of Death as separation 1. Physical Death The separation of the body and soul 2. Spiritual Death The separation of the man from God 3. Second Death Hell as the second spiritual separation from God http://www.bible.ca/d-death=separation.htm
Verse and Music:
Colossians 1:15-22 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— Mercy (Live From LIFT: A Worship Leader Collective) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUQv1mHxc_0
bornagain77
June 15, 2014
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And if we trace the primary source in the universe for this entropy which is the primary source of physical death we find:
Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010 Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated. http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe Roger Penrose – How Special Was The Big Bang? “But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space.” “Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.” Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476
Needless to say, the implications of this ‘eternity of destruction’ should be fairly disturbing for those of us who are of the ‘spiritually minded’ persuasion! Moreover, it is interesting to point out a subtle nuance on the Shroud of Turin. Namely that Gravity was overcome in the resurrection event of Christ:
Particle Radiation from the Body – July 2012 – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images. https://docs.google.com/document/d/19tGkwrdg6cu5mH-RmlKxHv5KPMOL49qEU8MLGL6ojHU/edit A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox. http://shroud3d.com/findings/isabel-piczek-image-formation The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://vimeo.com/34084462
Verse:
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Moreover, as would be expected if General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics (QED) were truly unified in the resurrection of Christ from death, the image on the shroud is found to be formed by a quantum process. The image was not formed by a ‘classical’ process:
The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271 “It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was “lifted cleanly” from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state.” Kevin Moran – optical engineer Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
Personally, considering the extreme difficulty that many brilliant minds have had in trying to reconcile Quantum Mechanics and special relativity(QED), with Gravity,
A Capella Science – Bohemian Gravity! – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rjbtsX7twc Bohemian Gravity – Rob Sheldon – September 19, 2013 Excerpt: there’s a large contingent of physicists who believe that string theory is the heroin of theoretical physics. It has absorbed not just millions of dollars, but hundreds if not thousands of grad student lifetimes without delivering what it promised–a unified theory of the universe and life. It is hard, in fact, to find a single contribution from string theory despite 25 years of intense effort by thousands of the very brightest and best minds our society can find. http://rbsp.info/PROCRUSTES/bohemian-gravity/
bornagain77
June 15, 2014
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Bruce David claims in regards to Jesus defeating death:
"There’s nothing to defeat. Death is merely a transition from one state of being to another."
Well contrary to David's druthers to write death off as merely an illusion that needs to be overcome, the physical death that Jesus overcame was very real, and very costly, indeed:
Detailed Forensic Evidence of The Shroud - video Excerpt: "it is definitely an anatomically and forensically correct depiction of a victim of a Roman crucifixion." http://www.shroud-enigma.com/wall_1/autopsy/turin-shroud-forensic-pathology.html Forensic evidence of the Shroud of Turin – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5QEsaNiMVc Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=J21MECNU Solid Oval Object Under The Beard http://shroud3d.com/findings/solid-oval-object-under-the-beard Shroud Of Turin Is Authentic, Italian Study Suggests - December 2011 Excerpt: Last year scientists were able to replicate marks on the cloth using highly advanced ultraviolet techniques that weren’t available 2,000 years ago — nor during the medieval times, for that matter.,,, Since the shroud and “all its facets” still cannot be replicated using today’s top-notch technology, researchers suggest it is impossible that the original image could have been created in either period. http://www.thegopnet.com/shroud-of-turin-is-authentic-italian-study-suggests-87037 New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating - Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford - video (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE
As to the primary physical cause of physical death:
John Sanford on (Genetic Entropy) - Down, Not Up - 2-4-2012 (at Loma Linda University) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PHsu94HQrL0#t=1040s Notes from John Sanford's preceding video: *3 new mutations every time a cell divides in your body * Average cell of 15 year old has up to 6000 mutations *Average cell of 60 year old has 40,000 mutations Reproductive cells are 'designed' so that, early on in development, they are 'set aside' and thus they do not accumulate mutations as the rest of the cells of our bodies do. Regardless of this protective barrier against the accumulation of slightly detrimental mutations still we find that,,, *60-175 mutations are passed on to each new generation. Entropy Explains Aging, Genetic Determinism Explains Longevity, and Undefined Terminology Explains Misunderstanding Both - 2007 Excerpt: There is a huge body of knowledge supporting the belief that age changes are characterized by increasing entropy, which results in the random loss of molecular fidelity, and accumulates to slowly overwhelm maintenance systems [1–4].,,, http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030220
This following video brings the point personally home to us about the effects of genetic entropy:
Aging Process - 85 years in 40 seconds - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91Fwf_sMhk
bornagain77
June 15, 2014
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New Age Movement Channeling the Spirits Excerpt: Psychologist Jane Roberts, back in the 1960's, first met a Spirit who identified himself as Seth, when she started experimenting with an Ouija Board. An Ouija Board is a mechanism that is used to contact the Spirit World and upon it there are letters with which the Spirits can spell out messages. The Board also has the words Yes and No upon it. If you will recall, J.Z. Knight first had her meeting with the Spirit "Ramtha" after fooling around with Occult Pyramids. Being in any way connected with occultic practices leaves one vulnerable to demonic forces, and can become extremely dangerous! Miss Roberts was thereafter able to discard her Ouija Board and speak on her own for the Spirit 'Seth', who from then on seemed to possess her. http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/ChannelingtheSpirits.htmbornagain77
June 15, 2014
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BA77 re. #64:
Bruce David, take your chances with your hybrid religion if you want, I clinging to the one who defeated death, i.e. Jesus:
There's nothing to defeat. Death is merely a transition from one state of being to another. As Seth remarked so pithily (Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts), "You're as dead now as you'll ever be."Bruce David
June 15, 2014
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@kf:
JWT: I am not even convinced that a brain is necessary for dreaming
Hi, I start from the principles - I am an intelligent designer, - I am ingelligently designed machinery, - one needs brains (or equivalent technology) to do stuff, and - it's an observed fact, that rocks don't have brains.JWTruthInLove
June 15, 2014
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Bruce David, take your chances with your hybrid religion if you want, I clinging to the one who defeated death, i.e. Jesus: General Relativity, Special Relativity, Heaven and Hell https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_4cQ7MXq8bLkoFLYW0kq3Xq-Hkc3c7r-gTk0DYJQFSg/edit “Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.” Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476bornagain77
June 15, 2014
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translation overcoming physical death, overcoming physical smeath,, no problem,,, miracles are miracles, whether I blink my eye or Jesus rose from the dead, its all the same.bornagain77
June 15, 2014
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BA77, re. #59:
Moreover, as Bruce David well knows, the Near Death Experiences of non-Judeo-Christian cultures are horrendous:
And as you well know, the most obvious explanation for this is that people in certain eastern cultures believe strongly in a kind of purgatory from which there is no escape, which colors their NDEs. In our culture, however, people either do not believe in Hell or they believe that their Christianity will save them from it, so their NDEs are not so affected.Bruce David
June 15, 2014
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BA77, re. #59
Funny that his burial place is now a place of reverence if he took his body with him when he died as Bruce claimed?!?
I made no such claim. My assertion is that Sri Yukteswar came to Yogananda in a fully physical body. Whether it was in fact his original body or one that replicated the original I do not know. I don't believe that anyone has dug up his grave to find out. Nor do I see much significance in whether or not a particular individual revivifies his original body or creates another one for such return visits. The act is miraculous by ordinary standards in either case.Bruce David
June 15, 2014
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The Exclusivity of Jesus - video http://www.watermark.org/media/the-exclusivity-of-jesus/3100/?autoplay=video General Relativity, Special Relativity, Heaven and Hell https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_4cQ7MXq8bLkoFLYW0kq3Xq-Hkc3c7r-gTk0DYJQFSg/edit "Einstein's equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist." Kip S. Thorne - "Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein's Outrageous Legacy" pg. 476bornagain77
June 15, 2014
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Bruce David claims: "Sri Yukteswar, Paramahansa Yogananda’s teacher came to him in a fully physical body which Yogananda verified by touching and held a conversation with him." yet: The highlight of our pilgrimage is Sri Yukteswar's hermitage, where he left his body 1936. http://www.anandapilgrimages.org/pilgrimages/puri/index-roi.html Funny that his burial place is now a place of reverence if he took his body with him when he died as Bruce claimed?!? and As I've heard said by many preachers before, You can go to the graves of all the other founders of all the other major religions of the world and find the remains of a body, yet, as the Shroud stubbornly testifies despite many attempts to refute the shroud’s authenticity, if you go to the tomb of Jesus you will not find the remains of a body for He has risen. Matthew 28:5-6 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Burial places of founders of world religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions Moreover, as Bruce David well knows, the Near Death Experiences of non-Judeo-Christian cultures are horrendous: https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/why-we-must-make-sure-the-darwinists-lose/#comment-361697 Near Death Experience Thailand Asia - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5gbornagain77
June 15, 2014
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Bruce David:
Personally, I think that the cybernetic metaphor is misleading, because we are talking about mind here, and mind is not a machine. I believe the truth is that our minds participate in and are part of the Universal Mind (there is only One Being) and that we are made in It’s “image and likeness”. Thus, our creativity is a gift, so to speak, from the creativity of God and ultimately flows from Him through us.
I have to disagree with this. God (or anybody else) can only create physical matter. While matter can be created, destroyed and/or modified, spiritual entities are eternal and unchanging. Thus the mind is necessarily half machine, half spirit. Your spirit is your own. It is your unique identity. God did not give it to you or create it for you. He only gave you a body where your spirit can reside.Mapou
June 15, 2014
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KF, re. #55:
4: On the resurrection it was not merely apparitions, but eating suppers together, having physical inspection of fearful but now powerless wounds, and even making a breakfast by a lakeside.
These sorts of things have happened with other people as well. Raymond Moody in Reunion gives us the following account of a woman who had a vision of her late grandfather in the mirror:
I was so happy to see him that I began to cry. Through the tears I could still see him in the mirror. Then he seemed to get closer and he must have come out of the mirror because the next thing I knew he was holding me and hugging me. It felt like he said something like, "It's okay, don't cry."
For another example, after his death, Sri Yukteswar, Paramahansa Yogananda's teacher came to him in a fully physical body which Yogananda verified by touching and held a conversation with him. Jesus didn't come to save us from our sins. He came to show us by his example who and what we really are. We are every one of us a son or daughter of God, made in His image and likeness.Bruce David
June 15, 2014
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Mung, yes rocks show a random or partly random distribution of minerals and layers etc. Very complex but as a rule not functionally specific. Gotta run. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2014
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BD: 1: The Smith Model addresses the cybernetic loop and raises the point of what a two-tier controller would point to. 2: An oracular machine is in effect a hybrid. It allows us to understand how embodiment with a computational cybernetic loop can transcend the Turing and computational processing limits. 3: I won't debate pantheism or the like, as it is irrelevant to the issue at stake. yes it is a possible design oriented view, as is the related simulation view. 4: On the resurrection it was not merely apparitions, but eating suppers together, having physical inspection of fearful but now powerless wounds, and even making a breakfast by a lakeside. Gotta rush off in a few minutes. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2014
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...natural rock is heterogeneous at all scales... - Relevance of computational rock physics (pdf)
Mung
June 15, 2014
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Reciprocating Bill:
I may not be able to get back to this discussion today.
What discussion? You just keep repeating yourself. kf doesn't believe that rocks dream, or even compute. Neither do you. So why not grant the premise and move on?Mung
June 15, 2014
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KF, I may not be able to get back to this discussion today. I'll check in when I can.Reciprocating Bill
June 15, 2014
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KF, re. #30:
I like J Bartlett’s remark about an oracle machine that feeds insightful influences into the cybernetic subsystem. That enriches my onward discussion of the Smith model two-tier controller with a shared memory space, here in the main discussion linked from the OP above.
Personally, I think that the cybernetic metaphor is misleading, because we are talking about mind here, and mind is not a machine. I believe the truth is that our minds participate in and are part of the Universal Mind (there is only One Being) and that we are made in It's "image and likeness". Thus, our creativity is a gift, so to speak, from the creativity of God and ultimately flows from Him through us.
PS: I think a powerful direct illustration of mind distinct from body is not so much near death as post death experience. Here, I very much have in mind the case of the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth with 500+ unstoppable eyewitnesses. (It is easy to show, per Babbage’s point in the 9th Bridgewater thesis on how rapidly the likelihood of a large number of witnesses agreeing in a common error falls . . . exponentially, that 6 – 10 or so witnesses to even the most unusual phenomenon, suffices to overcome a Hume type objection.
The appearance after death of someone to people who were close to them while alive is not nearly so rare as you imagine. It happens frequently. Often the vision includes the ability to converse with the deceased person, and occasionally even includes the ability to touch, as though the deceased person were actually present in his or her physical body. Also, these visitations are frequently experienced by several people at the same time, so if one wishes to dismiss them as mere hallucinations, they would have to be collective ones. Furthermore, if you decide that all these visitations are in fact only hallucinations, then how do you justify not coming to the same conclusion regarding Jesus' resurrection?Bruce David
June 15, 2014
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JWT: I am not even convinced that a brain is necessary for dreaming. What I am convinced of, is that rocks or dust, whether in raw or refined and organised forms, are passive entities that interact by blind chance and mechanical necessity. At most, with input organisation and information, that can account for GIGO-limited computation. That does not even begin to come close to creative, intelligent, self-moved contemplation . . . "dreams." And as the Glasgow Coma test shows, creative, contemplative, insightful consciousness shows itself by active and evidently intelligent interaction with the world. Rocks -- as R-Bill full well knows, are entirely passive. He is simply trying to burden-shift, effectively demanding a default materialism. That is part of why I am answering him the way I am, by going from passivity to computation to contemplation and showing that the line between blind and insightful comes AFTER computation is addressed. And, too, that is why I took time to take the mystique out of computational technologies, above and in the onward linked (used in part as I doubt the vid of a mechanical integrator can be embedded here at UD). KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2014
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Roy, yes; and note too the onward discussion of this famous remark in say C S Lewis (and IIRC, Wikipedia mentions it too in discussing Haldane, quite a colourful figure). And even if it were not a word for word, comma for comma accurate citation of what Haldane said, the wider argument thus captured in a nutshell is still quite valid. Evolutionary materialism is irretrievably self referentially incoherent and self-refuting -- as Crick's notorious remark of 1994 on the astonishing hypothesis confirms in our time. (I only cited Haldane as a short sharp well known summary; I suggest to you that you address that substance.) KF PS: On a check back it seems Google Books is now far more restrictive on that page than it was only a few years ago . . . maybe I now need to make a screen scan photo and add it to my vaults now, when I pick up a quote like that!kairosfocus
June 15, 2014
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So, now, what do you say, why?
I say: is that Haldane quote actually from Haldane? RoyRoy
June 15, 2014
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@Reciprocating Bill: Rocks don't have brains or equivalent processing components necessary (but not sufficient) for dreaming. Therefore they are in principle not able to dream.JWTruthInLove
June 15, 2014
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PS: Glasgow Coma Scale -- try it on a rock statue in your backyard or a natural -- that's a giveaway -- rock. If you try it on a dead human being, you will see the difference between dust left behind, and that active, creative, self-moved intelligence we term life. (And yes, the scale infers to active conscious intelligence from activity that reliably flows from it. It is a case of the design inference at routine work -- acipenser, if you are lurking, we still have that point to settle . . . )kairosfocus
June 15, 2014
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R-Bill: Strawman. You snipped out of context where I drew out step by step, and skipped over the challenge I gave -- the Glasgow Coma test. The manifest truth is that raw rocks are passive entities moved by blind chance and the mechanical necessity of physics and chemistry. They show no centre of volitional or even internally programmed algorithmic control, much less creative intelligent behaviour. When we shape rocks or process them, we may compose computational entities such as a Thomson integrator or a Si- etc based analogue or digital computer, or even a neural network gate array processor, but neither the rock nor dust we use show capability in themselves to be originating sources of the requisite functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I. Unlike beavers, they manifest no designs, not even those of limited scope. Nor do blind chance and mechanical necessity acting on them on the gamut of our observed cosmos. Moreover, when we examine computation in action, we observe that it is GIGO limited, a blind mechanical process that is in itself utterly unintelligent. The PC I am using will mechanically transfer symbol strings (using well debugged hard and soft ware), but it cannot compose this post. It is I -- a self-moved, contemplative creative intelligence irreducible to a programmed machine and/or blind chance as source of diversity -- who am causing that text to be composed, step by step. And yes, I am pointing out a broader, deeper pattern linked to the design inference you and others have strenuously objected to for years . . . it allows us to recognise self-moved creative, designing, intelligent behaviour on observable, tested, reliable signs; and, to distinguish it from programming manifested in computational signal processing and passive interaction under blind chance and mechanical necessity. A fresh paradigm opens up ways of seeing that an old one locks out. Actually, re-opens. Plato, long ago had somewhat to say of the self-moved and what that points to. We have no good reason to hold that a raw rock has in it anything more than the observed mechanical passivity, and every good reason to distinguish blindly mechanical computation from intelligent, complex behaviour requiring creative and purposeful insight. Aristotle, long ago, was dead on target in defining nothing as what rocks dream of. This is the context in which it is predictable that the kind of complex creativity that manifests in designs showing FSCO/I will continue to be a reliable sign of intelligence with capability to contemplate and genuinely understand, per Searle's Chinese Room vs a genuinely understanding speaker of Chinese. I further suggest that the idea of an oracle machine beyond a Turing entity, and that of the Smith two-tier cybernetic controller in the linked from the OP and beyond, point to positive ways forward. Nothing is what rocks dream of and nothing -- non-being -- can have no causal powers. But a dreaming oracle that uses small, despised things and things that as yet have no external reality, but which it sees can be made, that is a different story. Yes, things that are not, but can be, by the power of designing insightful contemplation and linked action, can be and can nullify what is. And yes, the echo of Paul, c. 55 AD as he describes God's astonishing toolkit in 1 Cor 1:17 ff, is intended. KFkairosfocus
June 15, 2014
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KF:
I’ll be short. Rocks, raw, can neither compute — execute algorithms on signals — nor contemplate.
Which is exactly the assertion I've asked you to justify. But again you fail to do so: instead, you move on to the computational abilities of refined rock and the claimed limitations of those computational abilities vis contemplation and dreams. None of which is remotely responsive to my question. So it goes. It can’t be your reasoning that the physical and/or computational insufficiency of rocks justifies your belief that they are devoid of dreams - that reasoning isn't available to you, as argued above. You haven't stated otherwise. Then what does?Reciprocating Bill
June 14, 2014
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