Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Putting the mind back on the table for discussion

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Design theory infers to design on inductive inference on tested reliable empirical signs. While many are disinclined to accept such inferences on matters linked to origins, that says more about lab coat clad materialist ideological a prioris and their cultural influences than it does about the actual balance of evidence on the merits.

But also, design implies designer.

One who exhibits creative, purposeful, imaginative, skilled intelligence adequate to configure a functionally specific, complex organised information-rich entity. Ranging from the text of this contribution (well beyond the 500 – 1,000 bits of FSCO/I that are easily shown to be beyond the plausible reach of blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of solar system or observed cosmos), to complex body plans, to the DNA code — code! — involved, to first cell-based life to the complex fine tuned cosmos that facilitates the possibility of such life.

But, it seems, genuinely independent, conscious, purposeful, creative designing mind is also under materialist interdict.

Never mind the still telling force of famed Evolutionist J B S Haldane’s apt turn of the 1930’s observation:

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true.They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)]

So, I think it is time to put the mind back on the table.

Starting with the principle that rocks have no dreams:

self_aware_or_not

Which, means that conscious mind is categorically distinct from blind mechanism based on cogs acting blindly on other cogs, or the substantial equivalent.

And continuing with the issue that blind mechanical processing is inherently limited by that blindness . . . a rock has no dreams, including “dust” reconfigured as neural network “gate” arrays:

A neural network is essentially a weighted sum interconnected gate array, it is not an exception to the GIGO principle
A neural network is essentially a weighted sum interconnected gate array, it is not an exception to the GIGO principle

 

I do so here, as there is a video involved that I doubt can be embedded at UD.

So. now, let us ponder the GIGO principle. As wiki aptly summarises (inadvertently testifying against known ideological inclination):

Garbage in, garbage out (GIGO) in the field of computer science or information and communications technology refers to the fact that computers, since they operate by logical processes, will unquestioningly process unintended, even nonsensical, input data (“garbage in”) and produce undesired, often nonsensical, output (“garbage out”).

Yes, blind mechanisms do not ask un-programmed questions and if out of whack or inadequately debugged, will just as blindly spew out garbage. They are utterly unreasoning, glorified calculation devices.

So, I say: GIGO-limited computation is not contemplation.

Again, I say: contemplative, creative designing mind does not credibly emerge from blind chance and mechanical necessity.

Yet again, I say: contemplative mind is categorically different from blindly computing matter, as a rock has no dreams.

So, now, what do you say, why? END

Comments
hey kf, I wonder if that integrator in the video is irreducibly complex. I would wager that something analogous can be found in nature somewhere.Mung
June 13, 2014
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RB: rocks don’t have the right physical organization to sustain/instantiate such states. KF: And neither do we.
If the physical states exhibited by brains, but absent in rocks, don't account for human dreams (contemplation, etc.) then you've no basis for claiming rocks are devoid of dreams - at least not on the basis of the physical states present in brains and absent in rocks. Given that, on what basis do you claim that rocks don't dream?Reciprocating Bill
June 13, 2014
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RB: And neither do we. You failed to see that rocks lead to GIGO-constrained blind mechanical computation, minds contemplate. Including the one you are using to imagine that you are a glorified rock. (Never mind that the involved FSCO/I points to design of even that much, whether a Thomson integrator analogue comp cascade, or a collection of gates and software in silicio, or neural networks using electrochemistry.) There is a categorical difference that has to be faced and the sci-fi equivalent of poof magic, emergence or its substantial equivalent, has to be seen for what it is. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2014
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Starting with the principle that rocks have no dreams
I absolutely agree. And why are we so confident that rocks have no dreams (beliefs, desires, subjective experiences)? Because rocks don't have the right physical organization to sustain/instantiate such states.Reciprocating Bill
June 13, 2014
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AYP: Note how I am treating the neuron as a summing gate with a trigger threshold. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2014
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AYP: How are you, yes the old integrator based analogue computers were very significant. Lord Kelvin and his brother got the ball rolling . . . oops, pun. I get the feeling that we need to lay out the basis for computing technologies and why GIGO highlights the difference between computation ande contemplation. I get the feeling that too many just don't know or have a hands-on feel for that difference. Even, with neural networks. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2014
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Thanks for that link to the Navy Mk1-A Fire Control Computer. I was a Fire Control Technician (FT) on an old WW-II Fletcher class tin can in the 60's and operated some of those knobs shown. Here is the story of my very first computer: http://ayearningforpublius.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/my-very-first-computer/ And another you might enjoy: http://ayearningforpublius.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/how-to-simulate-being-a-sailor/ Cheers, don Johnson (FTG-3)ayearningforpublius
June 13, 2014
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OA: Hume challenged the then generally accepted concept of cause and effect. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2014
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Wasn't it Hume who said that there is no rational explanation for the connection between a flame and heat or a flame and light?OldArmy94
June 13, 2014
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dysphoric: An emotional state characterized by anxiety, depression, or uneasebornagain77
June 13, 2014
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Semi OT: Skeptiko interviews Dr. Raymond Moody (author of 'Life after Life') Excerpt: Dr. Raymond Moody: "Alex, As you know, I’m a psychiatrist and not only that I was a forensic psychiatrist for a while in a maximum security unit for the criminally insane. I’ve lived in a lot of different sets of circumstances and so on. What I’ve really come to see is that everybody has about the same secrets. Plus, secret-keeping is an intrinsically dysphoric experience.,, http://www.skeptiko.com/raymond-moody-understanding-near-death-experiences-as-nonsense/ audio: http://www.skeptiko.com/upload/skeptiko-174-raymond-moody.mp3bornagain77
June 13, 2014
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When someone talks about "mind over matter", they are usually talking about matter exterior to the body. What is lost in such a debate over something universally considered "supernatural" or "miraculous" is the ubiquitous, unnoticed apparently supernatural miracle of the every-day capacity to think and act. I have no idea how my body performs the function of moving. All that is required is that I intend it, and instantly trillions of molecules leap into action, doing whatever they do, interacting however they must, in order to accomplish the intentional task. At the same time, I can simply intend to write on a subject, and somehow all sorts of ideas, examples, considerations, and related thoughts come pouring into (or, some would say, are manufactured by) my brain. Because of this sense of normalcy, we feel that because we are not apparently physically connected to an object a few feet away, it would be more of a miracle if we could move that object, without knowing how, "with our minds", than the fact that we move physical objects and orchestrate billions of precise functional mechanisms to perform simple, every-day tasks - with nothing more than "intention". Also, we can produce a virtually infinite amount of functionally specified complex information simply upon intent. This appears to me to be the very definition of supernatural capacity; how does physics account for the human capacity to infinitely arrange matter into apparently unlimited amounts of FSCI? How can a brain, which contains only a certain, finite amount of matter, produce such volumes of FSCI as if is connected to some unlimited information-generating machine?William J Murray
June 13, 2014
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It is time to ponder on mind over matter, even neural network matter.kairosfocus
June 13, 2014
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