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Intelligence Arrives Later In Some Cases Than Others…

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In the extreme, it never arrives at all. A case in point below.

Dawkins says

Intelligent, creative, complex, statistically improbable things come late into the universe, as the product of evolution or some other process of gradual escalation from simple beginnings. They come late into the universe and therefore cannot be responsible for designing it.

In Dawkins’ case intelligence appears to have never arrived at all. What does he base his claim on that intelligence (among other things) come late into the universe? A sample size of one. In typical Darwinian fashion he takes one thing that he knows in the present (intelligence in the form of humanity appearing some billions of years into the history of the universe) and extrapolates it backward through all of time and space to arrive at a conclusion that intelligence only came lately. Is it possible Dawkins has actually deluded himself into believing what he is saying, which implies he’s not very bright, or whether he knows how baseless it is, which implies he’s not very honest.

Let’s move along to complexity. There is nothing at all in science that would cause us to presume the universe had a simple beginning. The axiom of cause and effect tells us that the universe must have been just as complex at its beginning as it is now. It’s form has changed but not its complexity. It if was as simple as Dawkins stupidly and/or dishonestly posits then by virture of cause and effect we wouldn’t be here and the universe would be a perfectly homogenous distribution of matter and energy.

As far as statistically improbable things, the appearance of a singularity containing all the matter and energy in the universe at the instant of the big bang is the mother of all statistical improbabilities.

It’s no wonder he made the essay disappear where this and other similar brainfarts have been pointed out. Its removal is evidence he’s not as dense as he appears. Its appearance in the first place is evidence he thinks his critics are too dense to not easily demolish it.

Let’s hear from the readers – is Dawkins stupid, dishonest, or both? My vote is for both.

Comments
David vun Kannon, "Our conception of intelligence must be so incredibly parochial and naive, and yet we impute it to God." True, when I gaze upon the Mona Lisa painting, I do not understand nor appreciate all the artistic nuances. However, I recognize genius when I see it. It is the genius that we sense and recognize that is so awesome. Now for the $64 million dollar question -- if we are merely products of blind evolution, how can we sense genius beyond our own capabilities, and why should we care? It would be uncharted territory that would be irrelevant to us. Yet here we are, pondering such things.Ekstasis
September 28, 2006
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Todd As far as I am able to ascertain, I am the only scientist now posting on the internet who has published a new hypothesis for organic evolution. In fact most if not all of the other posters have published absolutely nothing on the only thing that remans to be determined which is the MECHANISM for organic evolution. To deny organic evolution is UNTHINKABLE as far as I am concerned. It is only the MECHANISM by which it took place that is still not established. It will be very soon I am certain and chance had absolutely nothing to do with it. Of that I am equally certain. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 28, 2006
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DaveScott Appreciate the humor but please cut the ad hominum gutter journalism. e.g. "brainfart" demeans UD. Dawkins:
Intelligent, creative, complex, statistically improbable things come late into the universe, as the product of evolution or some other process of gradual escalation from simple beginnings. They come late into the universe and therefore cannot be responsible for designing it.
at least recognizes the challenge of intelligence, complexity, and their statistical improbability. He then begs the origin question by assuming evolution and assuming no intelligent causation. More important is his other statement that:
the presence of a creative deity in the universe is clearly a scientific hypothesis. Indeed, it is hard to imagine a more momentous hypothesis in all of science
This implies the essential assumptions that for this to be a scientific hypothesis, we must allow intelligent causation (or "God") as a testable hypothesis and therefore must make the assumption that such can be examined. The ground rules necessary to make and test this "scientific hypothesis" are now beginning to be recognized. Dawkins then asserts evolution without testing for ID. That can be remedied! The task now is to posit hypoheses and tests for them and examine them against empirical evidence. In Creation as Science 2006, Hugh Ross throws down the gauntlt of making many testable hypotheses. He lays out 22 for "simple sciences" and 52 for "complex sciences". Let the Tournament proceed.DLH
September 28, 2006
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'The axiom of cause and effect tells us that the universe must have been just as complex at its beginning as it is now.' Could you please expand on this axiom? I'm not sure that I've encountered it before, but it seems interesting. Does it tell us that complexity cannot increase over time? If so, what precisely is meant by 'complexity' here - and how is the axiom discovered? Or is it postulated, rather than discovered? I'd always thought that axioms were presuppositions of systems - the Peano axioms for arithmetic being examples. These are posited rather than discovered.ezra
September 28, 2006
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DS - thanks for the link to the Bohmian interpretation. A QM aphorism that I find relevant to a lot of ID/evo discussion is that the universe is not only stranger than we do imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine. Our conception of intelligence must be so incredibly parochial and naive, and yet we impute it to God. "My thoughts are not your thoughts" also springs to mind... If God designed the universe, He certainly was not limited by our ideas of intelligence or design.David vun Kannon
September 28, 2006
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DvK If it's any consolation I believe the universe is deterministic only up to a point. That point being the free will of sentient life. As an experiment (granted it's subjective) stand up and decide to take a step to either the left or the right or forward or backward. Change your mind a few times. Do you think, as a subjective observer, that your ultimate decision was predetermined based on inexorable laws of physics? Now take a sharp stick, balance it on its point as well as you can, observe the direction it takes when it falls, and tell me if you think that was not predetermined based on the inexorable laws of physics. Or even more to the point, would the stick have remained balanced forever if there had been no observation of it? DaveScot
September 28, 2006
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DvK QM and General Relativity are at once two of the most well tested theories in science and incompatible with each other. The elusive theory of everything that reconciles the subatomic world described by QM with the macroscopic world described by GR remains elusive. There are various QM interpretations not all which take the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle as axiomatic. I call your attention to the Bohmian Interpretation. The popular Copenhagen Interpretation which posits wave functions collapse upon observation (measurement) fails to clearly define what constitutes an observer or a measurement. The well-known thought experiment Schrodinger's Cat neatly reveals the paradoxes inherent in the Copenhagen Interpretation.DaveScot
September 28, 2006
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ds: I don't think Dawkins is stupid. The question of whether he's stupid or dishonest was rhetorical. Dawkins was guilty of the kind of scenery chewing rhetoric usually left to Jonathan Wells, so he deserves to get tagged for it. OT - new site design is a big improvement!David vun Kannon
September 28, 2006
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davescot: I don't think Dawkins is stupid. The question of whether he's stupid or dishonest was rhetorical.
So you think Dawkins' pants on fire? Heh, heh. :ptodd
September 28, 2006
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"as causally bound as the stars " Given the reality of quantum level indeterminancy, that isn't very bound... as Einstein well knew.David vun Kannon
September 28, 2006
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I don't think Dawkins is stupid. The question of whether he's stupid or dishonest was rhetorical.DaveScot
September 28, 2006
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How many of us need to complain about Dave Scott's posts before he is banned outright from this blog? Just one. Bill Dembski.DaveScot
September 28, 2006
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Dr Davison, Do you agree we are all entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts? Is being published a prerequisite to being correct?todd
September 28, 2006
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Dr. Davison and todd, Good point. Note the illogic: "“Our actions should be based on the ever-present awareness that human beings in their THINKING, FEELING AND ACTING are not free but are just as causally bound as the stars in their action.” Albert Einstein, my emphasis If our thinking, feeling and acting are not free, how do we "choose" anything as a basis? How do we ever use the word "should", as loaded with contingency as it is. The basis of our thoughts and actions are therefore chosen for us, there is nothing prescreptive in the world, only descriptive. This no free-will thing is yet another concept that sounds great in theory (to some), but contradicts plain old actual experience. Oh yes, I know, we are deceived into thinking we have free will, just an illusion, of course. Hmmmm. Well, I will exercise my free will to end this rant, lucky for the rest of you.Ekstasis
September 28, 2006
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Todd I am a great admirer of the wisdom of Albert Einstein, in my opinion the greatest mind this world has ever produced or probably ever will. His wisdom also just happens to be in full agreement with my Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis. I hope you can understand but whether you do or not is of no consequence as my convictions are now published. Are yours and if so where may I find them? "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 28, 2006
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So, fight fire with fire. Yeah, that's always produced good results. :(Gods iPod
September 28, 2006
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Dr Davison EVERYTHING is determined… by forces over which we have no control
Is this Einstein quote an argument from authority? Has your determinism been proven empirically?todd
September 28, 2006
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Carl Sachs, What is the work to be done here? It would be interesting to hear from someone who supports NDE on this topic.jerry
September 28, 2006
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I think you are making too big a deal of what he said. Sure, he should have said something along the lines of "intelligence as we know it in the form of humanity arrived late, although it's possible it arrived early elsewhere". And even if arrive earlier somewhere else, it would have been presumably at least a few billion years to allow time for galaxies, solar systems and planets to form (at least for the kind of conditions that we believe are conducive to life).John Singleton
September 28, 2006
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Neither Stephen Jay (intelligence was an evolutionary accident) Gould nor Richard (the blind watchmaker climbing mount improbable) Dawkins nor Ernst (dyed -in-the-wool Darwinian) Mayr are stupid. They were all three "prescribed" eons ago to be atheist, egomaniacal mystics. We are each a victim of our destiny. Some of us have been luckier than others. Don't take my word for it. "Our actions should be based on the ever-present awareness that human beings in their THINKING, FEELING AND ACTING are not free but are just as causally bound as the stars in their action." Albert Einstein, my emphasis "EVERYTHING is determined... by forces over which we have no control." ibid I love it so! "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 28, 2006
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GiP, Yeah, ds can be a firebrand, but I don't believe you can point to an example where his flames are not contained within a larger argument, such as this thread. While I agree a focus on Dawkins is largely distracting, I understand a level of hostility from his critics, considering his own contemptuous words directed at them. When I read this post, I was more reminded of Dawkins' rhetoric toward theists with false either/or choices such as 'evil or stupid' and assumed ds was sort of turning the tables ...todd
September 28, 2006
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Mats, Your question: "Secondly, the belief that inteligence is a by product of evolution is a curious one. The question is: how do we falsify it? Is it even falsifiable? What experiment can we do to refute such a position? " First for a definition from Wiki: "Intelligence is a property of mind that encompasses many related mental abilities, such as the capacities to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn." So, this gets right back to the naturalist argument. Intelligent Design certainly would seem to argue for a "mind" that precedes the existence of biological organisms that also possess a mind. What we seem to say is that "mind" is necessary to explain both the structure/fine tuning of the cosmos and the "development" of living organisms. In other words, it required planning and certainly solving problems, for example. Problems like abiogenesis. Translated, life as we observe it is simply not possible without the intelligence to have planned it. Undirected, with time and chance, simply could not get us to the finish line. But, back to your question, how do we prove it? Once again, through inference? Through no other plausible explanations? Through analogy, i.e., we start with a design in our minds and translate that into material reality. Maybe, without "proof" either way that is demonstrable in the lab or test tube, we go with the direction reason points us, which is certainly Intelligent Design, rather than believing that it can all be one big accident.Ekstasis
September 28, 2006
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How many of us need to complain about Dave Scott's posts before he is banned outright from this blog? I do not see his posts as anything but highly inflammatory. Sometimes I wonder if he's actually a NDE in disguise just trying to make us all look bad in a subversive way.Gods iPod
September 28, 2006
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Carlos, I concur - however, while we're on the subject... :) Knowledge without wisdom is folly. My perception of Dawkins brings this to mind.todd
September 28, 2006
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Well, I honestly don't think that labeling him as "stupid" will do any good for Darwinisn skeptics. Secondly, the belief that inteligence is a by product of evolution is a curious one. The question is: how do we falsify it? Is it even falsifiable? What experiment can we do to refute such a position?Mats
September 28, 2006
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There's so much attention lavished on the man on this blog, one would think that if he didn't exist, the intelligent design movement would have had to invent him. Ahhhhhhh, but he does exist and we don't have to invent him.tribune7
September 28, 2006
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I'm sorry, but there has got to be something better we can do with our time than Dawkins-bashing. There's so much attention lavished on the man on this blog, one would think that if he didn't exist, the intelligent design movement would have had to invent him. I know, I know, no one is forcing me to come here and post. But c'mon, guys! There's work to be done here! You can bash Dawkins on your coffee break!Carl Sachs
September 28, 2006
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