Intelligent Design, QM & Information

14 quantum bits: Physicists go beyond the limits of what is currently possible in quantum computation - April 2011 Excerpt: They confined 14 calcium atoms in an ion trap, which, similar to a quantum computer, they then manipulated with laser light. The internal states of each atom formed single qubits and a quantum register of 14 qubits was produced. This register represents the core of a future quantum computer. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-quantum-bits-physicists-limits.html Scientists take another step towards quantum computing using flawed diamonds - March 2011 Excerpt: Scientists have for years been intrigued by the idea of a quantum computer,,, Such a machine would dwarf the capabilities of modern computers, http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-scientists-quantum-flawed-diamonds.html Quantum Computing in DNA - Hameroff Excerpt: Hypothesis: DNA utilizes quantum information and quantum computation for various functions. Superpositions of dipole states of base pairs consisting of purine (A,G) and pyrimidine (C,T) ring structures play the role of qubits, and quantum communication (coherence, entanglement, non-locality) occur in the “pi stack” region of the DNA molecule.,,, We can then consider DNA as a chain of qubits (with helical twist). Output of quantum computation would be manifest as the net electron interference pattern in the quantum state of the pi stack, regulating gene expression and other functions locally and nonlocally by radiation or entanglement. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/views/QuantumComputingInDNA.html bornagain77

I bet the universe is chock full of it. Mung

We need to develop a way to measure nonspecific, meaningless information. Mung

BA77 @ 13, Mung's question was "What is quantum [so-called] information about?" It was not "What do some people think about these hypothetical quantum entities to which it pleases them to misapply the word 'information'?" Ilion

ba77, You may want to catalogue all your material on a blog or website and link to it instead of pasting it in the comments section. This would also make it easier to archive and update. With regard to the question from "The unutterable lightness of being", the difference between a live cell and a freshly killed cell is minimal in terms of spatial content. What is disrupted is the dynamic content. Physics has described entropy and information in terms of spatial arrangements--phase space is x0,y0,z0 + vx0, vy0,vz0. Velocities are taken as instantaneous with respect to time, but one can also take the Fourier transform of the system and compute the entropy or information. My claim is that there is as much information in the Fourier realm as there is in the spatial realm, and much of that has to do with dynamics, with frequencies. The other part has to do with long-range spatial correlations. Therefore a freshly killed cell, say, exposed to a lethal dose of X-rays, has lost enormous information in the Fourier domain, and this is the major difference. You can read my blog on this at: http://procrustes.blogtownhall.com/2010/06/09/voom!_evolution_in_fourier_space_appendix.thtml http://procrustes.blogtownhall.com/2010/06/08/voom!_evolution_in_fourier_space_final_part_4.thtml http://procrustes.blogtownhall.com/2010/05/15/voom!_evolution_in_fourier_space_part_3.thtml and so forth. Robert Sheldon

Mung, 'What is quantum information? What is it about?' Qubit In quantum computing, a qubit (play /?kju?b?t/) or quantum bit is a unit of quantum information—the quantum analogue of the classical bit—with additional dimensions associated to the quantum properties of a physical atom. The physical construction of a quantum computer is itself an arrangement of entangled[clarification needed] atoms, and the qubit represents[clarification needed] both the state memory and the state of entanglement in a system. A quantum computation is performed by initializing a system of qubits with a quantum algorithm —"initialization" here referring to some advanced physical process that puts the system into an entangled state.[citation needed] The qubit is described by a quantum state in a two-state quantum-mechanical system, which is formally equivalent to a two-dimensional vector space over the complex numbers. One example of a two-state quantum system is the polarization of a single photon: here the two states are vertical polarisation and horizontal polarisation. In a classical system, a bit would have to be in one state or the other, but quantum mechanics allows the qubit to be in a superposition of both states at the same time, a property which is fundamental to quantum computing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qubit bornagain77

Dr. Sheldon, here is the math behind the special relativity optical effect video; Visualising Special Relativity - C.M. Savage and A.C. Searle Department of Physics and Theoretical Physics, Australian National University ACT 0200, Australia http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Searle/paper2.pdf Here is the interactive website; Seeing Relativity http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Searle/ bornagain77

Dr. Sheldon, though the preceding posts are the 'meat and potatoes' for how quantum information ties into classical information and thus how it ties into ID proper,,, it is none-the-less very interesting to go a bit further in the implications that all this presents to us.,,, Finding 'transcendent' quantum information on a massive scale in molecular biology gives a very 'plausible mechanism' as to the 'eternal soul' of man, since quantum information is not subject to any of the particular constraints of time and space that energy and matter are; The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Steve Talbott Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings The ‘Fourth Dimension’ Of Living Systems https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Y notes; ‘When cosmologists talk about “the multiverse,” it’s a slightly poetic term. We really just mean different regions of spacetime, far away so that we can’t observe them, but nevertheless still part of what one might reasonably want to call “the universe.”‘ - Sean Carroll - CalTech physicist It is interesting to note that in all these materialistic conjectures for multiverses, infinite parallel universe, quantum foam,, etc.. etc.. etc... That the materialist/atheist has not one iota of 'solid' empirical evidence for his conjectures. As you stated earlier Dr. Sheldon, it is all bluff and bluster to blunt the overwhelming theistic implications that the science is now pointing to,, Yet, despite the materialists not having any 'solid' evidence for ‘different regions of spacetime’,,,Theists actually do have evidence for the ‘higher dimensions of space and time' that they have always postulated,, notes; The weight of mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. Yet, mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light. Whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light, its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight. Special Relativity – Time Dilation and Length Contraction – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY Moreover time, as we understand it, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2. Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/ ,,,Yet, even though light has this ‘eternal’ attribute in regards to our temporal framework of time, for us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, will still only get us to first base as far as quantum entanglement, or teleportation, is concerned. Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 That is to say, traveling at the speed of light will only get us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, ‘past and future folding into now’, framework of time. This higher dimension, ‘eternal’, inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 Experimental confirmation of Time Dilation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Experimental_confirmation It is very interesting to note that this strange higher dimensional, eternal, framework for time, found in special relativity, finds corroboration in Near Death Experience testimonies: ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’ Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiences It is also very interesting to point out that the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’, reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as an observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences: Traveling At The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ Also, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, yet, and this is a very big ‘yet’ to take note of; this ‘timeless’ travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. Yet, in quantum teleportation of information, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus ‘pure transcendent information’ is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which ‘It’ resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned). “An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality” Akiane – Child Prodigy Logic also dictates ‘a decision’ must have been made, by the ‘transcendent, eternal, infinite information’ from the primary timeless (eternal) reality ‘It’ inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the necessity for a ‘first mover’ to explain quantum wave collapse. The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being – William Lane Craig – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914 As a side light to this, leading quantum physicist Anton Zeilinger has followed in John Archibald Wheeler’s footsteps (1911-2008) by insisting reality, at its most foundational level, is ‘information’. “It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom – at a very deep bottom, in most instances – an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that things physical are information-theoretic in origin.” John Archibald Wheeler Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: “In the beginning was the Word.” Anton Zeilinger – a leading expert in quantum teleportation: bornagain77

What is quantum information? What is it about? Mung

,,, as well, as hinted at before,,, 'conserved quantum information' dovetails into Dembski and Marks's work on Conservation of Information since classical information is now shown to be a 'subset' of 'conserved' quantum information;,,, LIFE'S CONSERVATION LAW: Why Darwinian Evolution Cannot Create Biological Information William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ ,,,Encoded classical information, such as what we find in computer programs, and yes as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of 'transcendent' quantum information by the following method:,,, This following research provides solid falsification for Rolf Landauer’s contention that information encoded in a computer is merely physical (merely ‘emergent’ from a material basis) since he believed it always required energy to erase it; Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm ,,and once again the conservation paper:,,, Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html bornagain77

To continue Dr. Sheldon, Quantum Information also falsifies neo-Darwinism,,, Falsification of neo-Darwinism; First, Here is the falsification of local realism (reductive materialism). Here is a clip of a talk in which Alain Aspect talks about the failure of ‘local realism’, or the failure of reductive materialism, to explain reality: The Failure Of Local Realism – Reductive Materialism – Alain Aspect – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 The falsification for local realism (reductive materialism) was recently greatly strengthened: Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism – November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show – July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm (of note: hidden variables were postulated to remove the need for ‘spooky’ forces, as Einstein termed them — forces that act instantaneously at great distances, thereby breaking the most cherished rule of relativity theory, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.) And yet, quantum entanglement, which rigorously falsified local realism (reductive materialism) as the complete description of reality, is now found in molecular biology on a massive scale! Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint – 2010 Excerpt: When the researchers analysed the DNA without its helical structure, they found that the electron clouds were not entangled. But when they incorporated DNA’s helical structure into the model, they saw that the electron clouds of each base pair became entangled with those of its neighbours (arxiv.org/abs/1006.4053v1). “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/ The relevance of continuous variable entanglement in DNA – July 2010 Excerpt: We consider a chain of harmonic oscillators with dipole-dipole interaction between nearest neighbours resulting in a van der Waals type bonding. The binding energies between entangled and classically correlated states are compared. We apply our model to DNA. By comparing our model with numerical simulations we conclude that entanglement may play a crucial role in explaining the stability of the DNA double helix. http://arxiv.org/abs/1006.4053v1 Quantum Information confirmed in DNA by direct empirical research; DNA Can Discern Between Two Quantum States, Research Shows – June 2011 Excerpt: — DNA — can discern between quantum states known as spin. – The researchers fabricated self-assembling, single layers of DNA attached to a gold substrate. They then exposed the DNA to mixed groups of electrons with both directions of spin. Indeed, the team’s results surpassed expectations: The biological molecules reacted strongly with the electrons carrying one of those spins, and hardly at all with the others. The longer the molecule, the more efficient it was at choosing electrons with the desired spin, while single strands and damaged bits of DNA did not exhibit this property. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110331104014.htm Information and entropy – top-down or bottom-up development in living systems? A.C. McINTOSH Excerpt: This paper highlights the distinctive and non-material nature of information and its relationship with matter, energy and natural forces. It is proposed in conclusion that it is the non-material information (transcendent to the matter and energy) that is actually itself constraining the local thermodynamics to be in ordered disequilibrium and with specified raised free energy levels necessary for the molecular and cellular machinery to operate. http://journals.witpress.com/paperinfo.asp?pid=420 i.e. It is very interesting to note that quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure ‘quantum form’ is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints, should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale, for how can the quantum entanglement ‘effect’ in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy space/time) ’cause’ when the quantum entanglement ‘effect’ falsified material particles as its own ‘causation’ in the first place? (A. Aspect) Appealing to the probability of various configurations of material particles, as neo-Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the energy/matter particles themselves to supply! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various ‘specified’ configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place! ,,,To refute this falsification of neo-Darwinism, one must falsify Alain Aspect, and company’s, falsification of local realism (reductive materialism)! ,,, As well, appealing to ‘non-reductive’ materialism (multiverse or many-worlds) to try to explain quantum non-locality in molecular biology ends up destroying the very possibility of doing science rationally; BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the “Boltzmann Brain” problem: In the most “reasonable” models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ ,,,Michael Behe has a profound answer to the infinite multiverse (non-reductive materialism) argument in “Edge of Evolution”. If there are infinite universes, then we couldn’t trust our senses, because it would be just as likely that our universe might only consist of a human brain that pops into existence which has the neurons configured just right to only give the appearance of past memories. It would also be just as likely that we are floating brains in a lab, with some scientist feeding us fake experiences. Those scenarios would be just as likely as the one we appear to be in now (one universe with all of our experiences being “real”). Bottom line is, if there really are an infinite number of universes out there, then we can’t trust anything we perceive to be true, which means there is no point in seeking any truth whatsoever. “The multiverse idea rests on assumptions that would be laughed out of town if they came from a religious text.” Gregg Easterbrook ================= Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry – Physics Professor – John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry’s referenced experiment and paper – “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 – “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 ========================= bornagain77

Doveton, Dennis' position seemed odd to me as well, until I realized it was a version of the demarcation problem. Here's how it works. a) The physicist proposes a Big Bang solution to cosmological data. But it looks like it undermines the Epicurean/Democritean materialism that says matter and time are eternal. So after 20 years or so of fretting (documented in Robert Jastrow's "God and the Astronomers") the physicist comes to the cognitive dissonant position that it is impossible to discuss anything shorter than a Planck time after the Big Bang. It's just a physical and metaphysical boundary, a DMZ. BTW, similar debates occurred in 1870 when Presbyterian James Clerk-Maxwell found evidence for atoms, which seemed to undermine the Christian story of creation. His answer was that atoms exist, but we can't say anything about how they are created. So the DMZ was erected by theists to protect theology in 1870, but now used by atheists to protect atheology in 1970. b) Then in 1990, along comes ID claiming that the fine-tuning of our universe is evidence of design. The DMZ is breached. In 1890 it was atheist Bultmann's development of statistical mechanics, that generalized this atomic stuff to the entire universe. Maxwell's DMZ line was breached. Just as atheism spread rapidly in 1900, leading to two World Wars, so also this ID stuff is spreading rapidly in 2000, looking to undermine Darwinism, evolution, and the whole Materialist enterprise. Angry atheists like Dawkins or PZ Myers are name-calling and fuming, but the whole time they are back-pedalling. What is a thinking atheist to do? c) So Dennis is trying to defuse the ID advance using the same strategy as physics did when they were confronted with the Big Bang. You develop a plethora of theories that diffuse the boundary, until it seems as if the breach of the DMZ never occurred. Big Bang bounces, quantum-loops, quantum-foam, multiverses, landscape theory, string-theory are all diffusing the fact that the data all support a beginning to our universe. So Dennis says, "This Designer thing is getting to you, right? So lets make a lot of Designer theories to diffuse the impact of admitting a beginning. And after you see all these theories of alternate Designers, you will realize that ID may be true, but you still don't need to admit a personal designer." My problem with both physicists and Dennis, is that a bucket-load of bad theories does not change the fact that there has been a sea-change of philosophy, and Materialism has lost all the credibility it gained in 1900. BTW, theists in 1900 also tried to resist the atheist tide, the two most notable solutions being German liberalism and fundamentalism. The first tried to find a theology that didn't care whether the Creation was true or not, and the second solution denied the validity of theology. Dennis is applying the first solution, and Dawkins the second. So perhaps what is puzzling you is the conversation occurring between Dennis the Liberal Atheist and Dawkins the Fundamentalist Atheist. Robert Sheldon

Dr. Sheldon, This seems like an odd tact on Dennis' part and I don't understand the point. If, Dennis' position (I'm going to call it "Agnostigner" - someone who is agnostic about the Designer) is correct and the Designer is irrelevant, then what does ID bring to any table scientifically? If the Designer is irrelevant, what does the explanation of design tell us about the world/universe? Does it impact any other scientific explanation in anyway and if so, how? As for this little gem:

ID Theory has nothing to do with creationism or a designer. There is no philosophical contemplation as to a designer any more than the Big Bang theory has anything to say about a banger.It is impossible to complain about the “designer” of Intelligent Design Theory without resolving the “banger” inferred by the Big Bang Theory. One cannot deny there is a “banger” if they insist there is a designer, and vice versa.

Dennis is partially correct I suppose - one can't deny a "banger" is implied by the Big Bang if one accepts that a "designer" is implied by the appearance of design. The problem for Dennis (and ID to some extent) scientifically speaking is that no actual scientific construct of the Big Bang Theory posits a "banger" at all. Most (if not all) theoretical physicists even note that a "banger" isn't required for the cosmology to proceed, so I'm not sure why Dennis wishes to give them logical grounds to quickly dismiss the Designer by association. Of course, a "designer" of some form, is required in Intelligent Design as Dennis notes, so the two are not even equivalent. Dennis' argument seems very odd to me. Doveton

moreover in support of the fact that quantum information is conserved;,,, since quantum information is in fact exercising dominion of matter-energy, to such a point as to violate the first law, then all the attributes that were inherent for energy-matter in the first law, and even greater attributes, must be present in quantum information. i.e. since quantum information exercises dominion of matter-energy, then quantum information cannot be created or destroyed, moreover, all quantum information that can possibly exist for all past, present, and future, events of matter-energy already must exist!!! ,,,Here is more evidence in support of the fact that it takes a specific amount of infinite information to create a photon; Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 ,,,Proof of principle of encoding massive amounts of information onto a single photon was achieved here; Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html (since only God is infinite in information/knowledge, then only God can create a photon de Novo, or even encode infinite information onto a photon if He so desired i.e. where are we humans going to get infinite information to encode onto a photon???): ,,, As well Dr. Sheldon, Classical information is shown to be a subset of conserved ‘quantum information’ by the following: This following research provides solid falsification for Rolf Landauer’s ‘materialistic’ contention that information encoded into a computer is merely physical (merely ‘emergent’ from a material basis) since he believed the classical information always required energy to erase it; Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy – June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that “more than complete knowledge” from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, “This doesn’t mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine.” The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what’s known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says “We’re working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm ,,, more notes later,,, bornagain77

One characteristic come from the fact that ‘it takes a infinite amount of specified information just to create a single photon’ To arrive at the ‘it takes a infinite amount of specified information just to create a single photon’ conclusion, the evidence is as such: Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1)— Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf

In the preceding paper, Duwell objected to instantaneous quantum teleportation of infinite information because of a violation of what he considered were, much like Einstein, space-time constraints that could not be violated. Yet Alain Aspect showed in his 'entanglement' experiments, as well as John Wheeler in his 'double-slit delayed choice' experiments, that the actions of quantum mechanics are not confined to the microscopic scale, but indeed quantum actions are also found to be universal in their scope. i.e. Instantaneous quantum action is found to be universal in scope!!

Further confirmation that the teleportation of infinite information is instantaneous was provided here: Researchers Succeed in Quantum Teleportation of Light Waves – April 2011 Excerpt: In this experiment, researchers in Australia and Japan were able to transfer quantum information from one place to another without having to physically move it. It was destroyed in one place and instantly resurrected in another, “alive” again and unchanged. This is a major advance, as previous teleportation experiments were either very slow or caused some information to be lost. http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-04/quantum-teleportation-breakthrough-could-lead-instantanous-computing Moreover, as hard as it is for some to believe, quantum teleportation actually exercises a controlled violation of the first law of thermodynamics; How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,” http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ Ions (Atoms) have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts Yet even though the conservation of energy/matter (The First Law) has suffered a 'controlled violation' by instantaneous quantum teleportation, it has recently been shown that 'transcendent' quantum information is 'conserved'; Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html more notes later,,, bornagain77

Dr. Sheldon,,, i.e. our scientific observations and the science of General Relativity itself both join together and overwhelmingly indicate that the universe had tio have a absolute beginning,,, thus the science itself, has come alongside what has been known philosophically for centuries and dictates the necessity of a 'first cause' (kalam cosmological argument; Craig),, Moreover, our scientific observations and the science of Quantum Mechanics itself both join together and overwhelmingly indicate that this universe is not self sustaining in its moment by moment operation,,, thus the science itself has come alongside what has been known philosophically for centuries and dictates the necessity for a 'first mover' to account for change occurring for each moment of the universe; i.e. In conjunction with the mathematical, and logical, necessity of an 'Uncaused Cause' to explain the beginning of the universe, in philosophy it has been shown that,,, "The 'First Mover' is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor - Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first.html I find this centuries old philosophical argument, for the necessity of a 'First Mover' accounting for change occurring at each moment, to be validated by quantum mechanics. This is since the possibility for the universe to be considered a self-sustaining 'closed loop' of cause and effect is removed with the refutation of the 'hidden variable' argument, as first postulated by Einstein (A. Aspect), in entanglement experiments. The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 As well, there also must be a sufficient transcendent cause (God/First Mover) to explain quantum wave collapse for 'each moment' of the universe. (absurdity of infinite parallel universes not withstanding); Moreover our understanding from quantum mechanics has revealed a few important characteristics of this 'first cause' of the Big Bang, and this 'first mover' of quantum mechanics:,,, bornagain77

Well Dr. Sheldon, I feel 'science' respects no 'demarcation zone', and does indeed wander full bore into the minefield as if to say to the demarcation zone, 'I have no need of that hypothesis'. First, as you pointed out, time and space (space-time per Einstein),,,

(of note, the expansion of space-time is the most finely tuned constant at '1 in 10^123' i.e. the cosmological constant)

,,,as well as energy-matter, according to our best ability to discern as such, regardless of the rampant speculations that take place in the 10^-43 second Planck epoch, were all brought instantaneously into being at the Big Bang. Thus the 'Banger' of the Big Bang, according to our best ability to discern as such, had to be completely transcendent of space-time matter-energy;

"Every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past." (Hawking, Penrose, Ellis) - 1970 Beyond The Big Bang: William Lane Craig Templeton Foundation Lecture (HQ) 1/6 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esqGaLSWgNc The Scientific Evidence For The Big Bang - Michael Strauss PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323668 "The Big Bang represents an immensely powerful, yet carefully planned and controlled release of matter, energy, space and time. All this is accomplished within the strict confines of very carefully fine-tuned physical constants and laws. The power and care this explosion reveals exceeds human mental capacity by multiple orders of magnitude." Prof. Henry F. Schaefer "The prediction of the standard model that the universe began to exist remains today as secure as ever—indeed, more secure, in light of the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem and that prediction’s corroboration by the repeated and often imaginative attempts to falsify it. The person who believes that the universe began to exist remains solidly and comfortably within mainstream science." - William Lane Craig

Thus since energy-matter space-time, from the best of what we can know from scientific certainty, were instantaneously brought into being at the Big Bang, we are 'scientifically' required, irregardless of imagined 'minefields', (or as Dr. Craig says were written about the uncharted areas on the maps of old, 'do not enter here, there be dragons!!!'), ,, we are forced 'scientifically' to look for a transcendent entity to explain where energy-matter space-time came from. And the only thing that is 'scientifically' shown to be completely transcendent of space-time matter-energy, as well as 'dominate' of space time matter-energy is quantum information/entanglement (A. Aspect).,,, further notes later,,, bornagain77

However interesting his post may be, that fact remains that the typical 'agnostic' is an even worse fool – even more so an intellectually dishonest dissembler – than is the typical 'atheist'. Now, it’s true that as a scientific issue, ID isn’t about the Designer and that the pointless and constant objections about “Who is the Designer” are nothing but intentional distractions. And, it’s true that, as a scientific question, the identity of the Designer can no more be answered than the identity of the Banger. BUT, this isn’t because the identity of the Designer is irrelevant; it’s because science isn’t robust enough to even ask the question. Consider that chart/table you’ve helpfully provided “that tries to separate the different responses to this question” – the “Atheist Response” column fairly well sums up that side and its “thinking” (*); but the “Theist Response” column is misleading (**); and the “Agnostic Response” column shows the absurdity of ‘agnosticism’ and the intellectual dishonesty of ‘agnostics’ (***). (*) For instance, atheists *have* to say “Of course” to identifying “Chance” as “the Designer” – the ‘atheist’ asserts that the explanation for what exists *must be* unintention-all-the-way-down – for, to identify “the Designer” as anything other than an unintended series of events which just happened to happen is to deny that atheism is the truth about the nature of reality. (**) The “theist” is not dogmatically (as that word is misused) saying “Of course” and “Not possible,” in the manner that the ‘atheist’ *is* dogmatically saying “Of course.” The two answers the “theist” gives are two sides of the same coin – the “theist” reasons that the explanation for what exists cannot be unintention-all-the-way-down, therefore, there is an Intender who intended some (or all) of the design that we observe. (***) ‘Agnostics’ are practical atheists who haven’t the intellectual honesty to admit to, nor defend and justify their God-denial. Moreover, they set themselves up as the moral-and-intellectual superiors to those who do explicitly grapple with the question. As I alluded above, there are only two logically possible answers to the question of why what exists does exist; either: the world is (at least in part) intended, or it is wholly unintended. The ‘agnostic’ response is to say to both “theists” and ‘atheists’, “Tsk! You people are so backwards for even taking that question seriously” … and then he just assumes (without ever acknowledging doing so) that the answer is, and must be, that the world was/is wholly unintended. The correct response to the “Designer=Chance” answer is *not* “Possibly,” it is “Not possible.” “Possibly” is the tentative response for both logical possibilities, *before* one has rationally explored the issue. After one has done so, there is no probability left under option 2), it all moves to option 1). But, and as illustrated in your chart/table, the ‘agnostic’, in his intellectually dishonest hauteur, brushes aside even asking the question and worships the assertion that the question is pointless (even as he assumes one of the only two logical possibilities). Ilion