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Is “Christian Darwinist” an Oxymoron?

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I commend to you Denyse O’Leary’s excellent post below concerning whether famous Darwinist Theodosius Dobzhansky (1900-1975) was a Christian.  O’Leary demonstrates that while there is certainly no doubt about the “Darwinist” part, there is plenty of room to be skeptical about the “Christian” part. 

The problem with claiming that a Spinozan mystic like Dobzhansky was a Christian is that the claim does violence to language.  The word “Christian” classifies.  In other words some people are in the class “Christian” and some people are not.  If this were not so, the classification would cease to classify and become meaningless.  “Christian” is not simply a synonym for “agreeable fellow.”  The word has substantive content and divides people according to their religious beliefs.  

What I have said so far is uncontroversial.  Some people are Christians and some people are not.  Who could disagree with that?  The problem comes when we try to sort people into or out of the class.  Here we are faced with at least two problems:  (1) where is the border of the class; and (2) how do we know which side of the border any particular person is on?

 As to the first problem, O’Leary suggests the Apostles Creed marks the border.  The Apostles Creed states:

 I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body,

and life everlasting.

 Certainly the Creed contains the core of what I would call the “Historic Christian Faith” confessed by Christians everywhere for the last 2,000 years.  But need one understand and confess every jot and tittle of the Creed to be a Christian?  Consider someone who has just been told the story of how Jesus died and was buried and rose again victorious over death and instantly receives and believes that story and confesses that Jesus is the Christ.  Is it really necessary for him to know the parts of the Creed that concern ecclesiology and eschatology before we can say he is a Christian?  I think not.  Correct belief concerning these doctrinal matters, as important as they are, does not define a Christian. 

If the Apostles Creed is not the irreducible minimum of the Christian faith then what is?  Let me suggest a very simple and bright line.  Romans 10:9-10 states:  “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.” 

This formula establishes two and only two criteria for a person to be a Christian:  The person must (1) believe in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead; and (2) confess that Jesus is Lord.  It is just that simple.  Anyone who believes and confesses these things will, according to the scripture, be saved.  This then is the essential core of the Christian faith, the border of the classification.  According to scripture we can say with confidence that every person who believes that God raised Jesus from the dead and confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord is a Christian.  Every person who does not do both of these things is not a Christian. 

Having established the border of Christianity, we now move on to the second problem, sorting people into (or out of) the classification.  As we have seen, the Romans 10 formula requires a person to confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead.  The first part is easy enough.  A person either confesses Jesus is Lord or he refuses to do so.  But the second part presents a huge problem.  How can we know what a person truly believes in their heart?  I have a hard enough time attempting to fathom the depths of my own heart.  Every other person’s heart is completely inaccessible to me.  So we find that even if we are able clearly to define the borders of the class “Christian,” we still may not be able to know whether a particular person is a Christian.

While we must remain silent about many things, there are some things we can know with certainty.  Those who do not meet the first part of the test (confess that Jesus is Lord) are by definition not Christians.  On this basis we can say with confidence that Stalin, Mao and Richard Dawkins are not Christians.  But what about those who meet the first part of the test?  They have confessed that Jesus is Lord.  How can we know whether they have met the second part of the test so we can sort them into or out of the class called “Christian”?  The answer is, I believe, we cannot.  For each person who has confessed Jesus as Lord, whether they truly believe in their heart is something about which we cannot have certain knowledge.  Whether they truly believe only they and God can know, and we, who cannot know, must remain silent.  

So at the end of the day, I find that neither I nor any other human has any part of the sorting process.  At the first step we do not sort.  People sort themselves if they refuse to confess that Jesus is Lord.  And at the second step, we must remain silent, because we cannot know the true condition of a person’s heart.  

What about a person who says he is a Christian and that he believes in Darwinism?  Are they a Christian or not?  As we have seen, for any particular person who has confessed Jesus as Lord, we must remain silent.  We cannot know.  The best we can do is make a few pertinent observations: 

1.  The phrase “Christian Darwinist” is not an oxymoron.  Look at the Romans 10 formula again.  The line is simple and bright.  The scripture says that if a person confesses Jesus and believes in his heart, he will be saved.  Even if we assume for the sake of argument that Darwinism is dead wrong, it makes no difference.  The formula is confess and believe.  It is not confess and believe and hold a correct view of evolution. 

2.  Many Christians who say they believe in “Darwinism” do not understand what they are saying.  They believe that God created through evolution and was involved in the process and guided it through to completion.  They do not understand that “Darwinism” properly understood rejects the very view they hold.  A Darwinist believes that the combination of natural law and random variation are sufficient to account for the origin and diversity of life without any guiding intelligence from God or anyone else.  They believe that the human body is the result of a process that did not need God any more than a stone rolling down a hill needs God.  Very often, therefore, the issue is not whether a Christian can believe Darwinism, but whether a Christian can hold a mistaken belief about Darwinism.  

3.  Darwinism, properly understood, is dangerous to all religious belief.  It truly is, in Dennett’s phrase, a universal acid, and faith is one of the things that acid dissolves.  It is for a very good reason that Dawkins famously proclaimed that Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.  And we see a strong correlation between the rise of Darwinism and the decline of religious faith, especially among the so-called intellectual elite.  Belief can be very inconvenient when that belief places constraints on the sovereign will.  Darwinism helps people throw off those constraints. 

Finally, we end where we began with the question of Dobzhansky’s status.  Was he a Christian?  First, as we have seen, the mere fact that he was a Darwinist does not settle the issue.  It is possible for a person to be a Darwinist and a Christian.  Let us consider Dobzhansky’s status in light of the Romans 10 test.  Did he confess that Jesus is Lord?  My understanding, and someone can correct me if I am wrong, is that Dobzhansky told people that he did not believe in a personal God.  He believed in a sort of universal intelligence guiding the universe.  In other words, he was a mystic similar to Spinoza.  

If this is so, Dobzhansky was not a Christian.  I did not sort him.  He sorted himself.  He told everyone that he did not believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, because he did not believe in the existence of a personal God who could do any such thing.  By his own word Dobzhansky affirmed that he did not meet even the simple two-step test of Romans 10. 

What about Dobzhansky’s student and friend Francisco Ayala, who reported that Dobzhansky was a “religious man.”  Being a religious person does not make one a Christian.  Hindus are often devoutly religious; yet no Hindu is a Christian.  

What about the fact that Dobzhansky was a communicant of the Eastern Orthodox Church?  Being a member of a church does not make one a Christian.  My name may have been on the rolls of the First Baptist Church for decades, but if I do not confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, I am not a Christian.  If for whatever reason a Spinozan mystic chooses to sit in the pew of an Orthodox church, he remains a Spinozan mystic.  Sitting in that pew does not make him a Christian.

Comments
StephenB & Barry, Put another way, evolution either knew where it is going or it didn’t; the process was either orchestrated or it wasn’t; the end result was either intended or it wasn’t. The Christian Darwinist wants to have it both ways. Well, I thank StephenB for at least agreeing that this is a question of considerable interest in this discussion. Is Barr (for example) a Darwinist? He affirms God foreknew and preordained evolution's outcomes - I think that makes it clear he chooses A. But Barr, I believe, also insists he's a Darwinist. But StephenB, Michael Ruse, and others insist that Darwinism requires B. So we've got problems. Some significant portion of people in this debate have a defective definition of Darwinism. Is it the people who insist Darwinism is compatible with A? Or the people who insist that Darwinism demands B?nullasalus
December 10, 2010
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---BarryA: "StephenB, I think this is going to be one of those rare occasions where we disagree. That’s OK; someone once said, “Show me two men who agree on everything, and I’ll show you two men where only one of them is doing all of the thinking.” Right you are, and it is almost as much fun to fine tune our ideas through dialogue as it is to agree. --"I may be wrong, but I think my premise is supported by scripture. Please show me the scriptures that support yours." You are not wrong, Scripture supports your premise [Romans 20] just as it supports my premise [Romans 1: 20]. However, your Scriptural passage speaks to the minimum requirements for salvation while my Scriptural passage speaks to the compatibility between faith and reason. We are both taking a small chunk out of a bigger picture. I am arguing that the latter chunk is more relevant to the Christian/Darwin conflict. ---"So when I say that a Christian Darwinist does not believe God intervenes in evolution any more than he intervenes to make a stone roll down the hill, it is quite literally correct." It seems to me that, for purposes of this discussion, the issue is not about whether God once intervened or now intervenes in an macro-evolutionary process. The relevant point, I contend, is this: If macro-evolution is true, [and I grant that only for the sake of argument], everything turns on what kind of a process it is. Did it [A] "unfold" according to a purposeful, pre-established plan, that is, did it go through a maturation process much like an acorn unfolding into a tree, or [B] did it "emerge" in a totally random and unpredictable way such that the end result was an unintended consequence. Darwinism leaves no room for [A] Christianity leaves no room for [B]. That would make Christian Darwinism an oxymoron. Put another way, evolution either knew where it is going or it didn't; the process was either orchestrated or it wasn't; the end result was either intended or it wasn't. The Christian Darwinist wants to have it both ways.StephenB
December 10, 2010
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BarryA, No, Paul clearly had in mind the God of the Bible, not just any God. Alright. But then I have to ask - does Paul's statement come with implicit understandings of what God is? Because if so, then - depending on what that understanding is, and depending on what we're talking about with "Darwinism" - there may be trouble ahead. If A) the God Paul meant was omniscient and omnipotent, B) Paul words are authoritative here, and C) Michael Ruse is correct that a God who knew and preordained the outcomes of evolution is incompatible with "Darwinism" (whether by foreknowing the results of those "secondary causes" or by intervening at the quantum level), then it seems like we're left with the conclusion - even in that specific, particular passage - that Darwinism is incompatible with Christianity. Granted, one could argue about A B and C, but I think it's a live option.nullasalus
December 10, 2010
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BarryA, It boils down to this: “‘Random’ for us is not ‘random’ for God.” To me it is not very satisfying. He truly seems to be saying that “random” only means “random from our perspective.” This, in my view, stretches the words to their breaking point. I fail to see why. Could you explain more? If there is a pattern in nature, but I cannot see the pattern, then to me what I'm looking at is random. But if there truly is a pattern, it's not "really" random. From the perspective of an omniscient being have all possible wave functions already collapsed? God knows whether that cat is alive or dead before you even put him in the box, much less before you shoot a photon at it. Possibly. Or maybe God intervenes (as some TE's have suggested) at those specific points. Who's to say? I'll note that this gets into interpretations of quantum physics, which most physicists tend to regard as an issue science is silent on (if only at the moment, but possibly for all time.) We have a sense of how things will 'play out' due to our equations, but what those equations "really mean" is another question. To put it another way, it seems to me there's multiple possibilities 'God' could accomplish His will, and we can't be empirically sure which way is the actual way quite yet.nullasalus
December 10, 2010
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BarryA, Thanks for the responses. Barr would say that Darwinian evolution operates on purely secondary causes; God does not intervene to “guide” it any way. At the same time Barr would admit that in both the stone rolling and the animal evolving cases, God, as you say, upholds the universe and physical laws. So when I say that a Christian Darwinist does not believe God intervenes in evolution any more than he intervenes to make a stone roll down the hill, it is quite literally correct. Well, I have some problems with this: You're saying that the Christian Darwinist does not believe that 'God intervenes'. But previously you said: A Darwinist believes that the combination of natural law and random variation are sufficient to account for the origin and diversity of life without any guiding intelligence from God or anyone else. I think there's a big difference between the claim that evolution proceeds "without any guiding intelligence from God or anyone else", and the claim that evolution proceeds "without intervention". An evolutionary history could in principle have no direct intervention whatsoever, yet still entirely be permeated with "guiding intelligence". Analogously, I could code a computer program that will certainly proceed (when run) in a certain and foreknown way at each point, but I don't need to 'be there, intervening' at each or any point to "guide" it to its known end. But it's still guided, and intelligence is still essential to what we see. I want to stress at this point: The popular, atheist Darwinist claim stands counter to this "guiding intelligence" specifically. Read the Michael Ruse essay I linked to Bilbo and you'll see an example of this for yourself: Ruse makes it clear that for God to know the outcome of evolution is to eschew Darwinism. Jerry Coyne and others either outright say or strongly imply the same.nullasalus
December 10, 2010
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nullasalus, you make some great points. Let me address them one by one: 3. “Alright. So clearly one must believe God exists given Romans 10. Is there anything we must believe about God? Would you say that God could be, say.. some embodied, physical deity like Zeus?” No, Paul clearly had in mind the God of the Bible, not just any God.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2010
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nullasalus, you make some great points. Let me address them one by one: 2. “I believe the distinction he [i.e. Barr] makes is that evolution may model variation as random (for example) but this no more means ‘unguided’ than it does in his own field of physics.” You are correct. Some years ago Barr wrote and article for First Things called, I believe, “The Miracle of Evolution” in which he asserted basically what you are saying. I read the article over and over trying to make sense of it. It boils down to this: “‘Random’ for us is not ‘random’ for God.” To me it is not very satisfying. He truly seems to be saying that “random” only means “random from our perspective.” This, in my view, stretches the words to their breaking point. Here’s a thought: From the perspective of an omniscient being have all possible wave functions already collapsed? God knows whether that cat is alive or dead before you even put him in the box, much less before you shoot a photon at it. ;-)Barry Arrington
December 10, 2010
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nullasalus, you make some great points. Let me address them one by one: 1. “But ‘a stone rolling down a hill’ does need God. God creates and upholds the universe and the physical laws, after all.” That is exactly right but misses the point of Christian Darwinists like Stephen Barr, whose position I will call the “Barr position” for brevity. Barr would say that the random puff of wind or drop of rain that dislodged the stone is the same as the random variation posited by Darwinism. And he would say that the natural law of gravity (or “mechanical necessity” if you like) is equivalent to the natural law of natural selection. The stone rolling operates on purely secondary causes. God does not push it down the hill. In the same way Barr would say that Darwinian evolution operates on purely secondary causes; God does not intervene to “guide” it any way. At the same time Barr would admit that in both the stone rolling and the animal evolving cases, God, as you say, upholds the universe and physical laws. So when I say that a Christian Darwinist does not believe God intervenes in evolution any more than he intervenes to make a stone roll down the hill, it is quite literally correct.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2010
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BarryA, My major premise is that to be a Christian one merely need believe and confess as set forth in Romans 10. Though as ever, StephenB doesn't need me speaking for him, let me ask this. Romans 10: If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Alright. So clearly one must believe God exists given Romans 10. Is there anything we must believe about God? Would you say that God could be, say.. some embodied, physical deity like Zeus?nullasalus
December 10, 2010
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StephenB writes: “Rather, the point is [the Christian’s] orientation to Christianity’s teaching that God intended, by whatever means, to produce an outcome in keeping with His original intent. Christians accept this basic, and I would say, definitive teaching, while Darwinists do not.” StephenB, I think this is going to be one of those rare occasions where we disagree. That’s OK; someone once said, “Show me two men who agree on everything, and I’ll show you two men where only one of them is doing all of the thinking.” ;-) The difference between our conclusions is very easy to see. My major premise is that to be a Christian one merely need believe and confess as set forth in Romans 10. You substitute the following premise: “To be a Christian one must adhere to a particular view of origins that excludes Darwinists by definition.” I may be wrong, but I think my premise is supported by scripture. Please show me the scriptures that support yours.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2010
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Bilbo, I think God can create using completely random processes, which are analogical to free will. Foreknowing the outcome of the random processes means that God is still in control of what happens, just as He is still in control of what happens when He allows us free will. So yes, a Christian can be a true Darwinist. The problem is, Michael Ruse and many others would disagree with you. http://biologos.org/blog/accommodationist-and-proud-of-it-part-iv-science-and-religion/ Go there and read what Ruse - at Biologos, even! - says about Darwinism. If you believe God 'foreknows the outcome of these completely random processes' then A) They aren't "completely random", and B) According to Ruse, you're no longer a Darwinist. And Ruse is hardly alone in this. I think there are multiple definitions of Darwinism running around. But my problem remains this: If we go by Ruse's definition of Darwinism, then neither you, nor Barr, nor many other 'Christian Darwinists' really are. They can't be by that definition, because said definition requires a metaphysical commitment to God lacking knowledge and power.nullasalus
December 10, 2010
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They believe that the human body is the result of a process that did not need God any more than a stone rolling down a hill needs God. But 'a stone rolling down a hill' does need God. God creates and upholds the universe and the physical laws, after all. They believe that God created through evolution and was involved in the process and guided it through to completion. They do not understand that “Darwinism” properly understood rejects the very view they hold. A Darwinist believes that the combination of natural law and random variation are sufficient to account for the origin and diversity of life without any guiding intelligence from God or anyone else. This is a perpetual problem for me. Stephen Barr, if I recall correctly, calls himself a Darwinist - but he also flat out says he believes that God, being omniscient and omnipotent, foresaw all that would unfold in the universe, evolution included. I believe the distinction he makes is that evolution may model variation as random (for example) but this no more means 'unguided' than it does in his own field of physics. So the scientific model has a practical utility to it, but the model isn't reality. Just as when I model a roll of the die as "1d6" doesn't mean that God wouldn't know what number will come up when I roll a die. But I think this is the real issue: The sort of "random variation" the Darwinists you're speaking of need to get God out of the picture isn't the sort that can be scientifically studied. Let me repeat: The "random variation" Michael Ruse speaks of is not the sort you can ever demonstrate even in a controlled laboratory setting, because there's no way you can ever say "A-ha! God neither saw nor determined this outcome!" with scientific validity. Even the most wily of "creationists" don't think God is open to this manner of investigation. Now I'd agree that if one accepts "Evolution is totally unguided, not even God knew or instituted the outcomes", then we have an obvious problem re: Christians and Darwinism. But it's not a problem that flows from any "science" - it flows from metaphysics, from philosophy. Doubly so, since humans are able to use evolutionary principles in design (particularly computer programming) where particular end results are attainable by our direction, etc. The mere fact of artificial selection goes a long way towards showing that evolution can be guided, after all. Anyway, this all comes back to what I think is an ongoing muddle on the word 'Darwinism'. Clearly Barr has a different definition of 'Darwinism' than others do. For Barr and others, Darwinism seems to be a name for a pragmatic model, not a statement about reality that requires a metaphysical commitment. For Ruse (and perhaps for ID proponents here) Darwinism lacking that metaphysical commitment is not real "Darwinism". I wonder how often both sides talk past each other due to this.nullasalus
December 10, 2010
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Bilbo I writes: "I disagree, Barry" and then he asserts the same conclusion that I did. Bilbo, I think you assumed what I would conclude from the title of the original post and did not bother reading it before registering your dissent. How unfortunate.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2010
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StephenB:
Christianity = God created life or designed the life process [rational] Darwinism = God did not create life or design the life process [irrational] Christian Darwinism = God designed the process except that he didn’t. [irrational and schizophrenic]
Stephen, you mis-define darwinism. Darwinism = God (or other supernatural intervention) is not necessary as an explanation for the current state of life. Darwinism has nothing to say about God other than that natural processes seem to be sufficient to account for life. I find it odd that the same amount of vitriol isn't directed at Laplace for showing that the orbits of planets can be explained without invoking supernatural intervention. Darwin did for biology what Laplace (and Newton) did for astronomy: provide an explanatory framework. Why is Darwin vilified and Laplace not? By the way, why do my comments require 'moderator approval' before they show up? Is this a censored venue? Are dissenting opinions not allowed? Am I in danger of being 'Expelled'?jurassicmac
December 10, 2010
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I think the following video is somewhat helpful, for in it Howard Storm, though a convinced Darwinian Atheist, had as a child, in that child-like faith we have abundantly as children, believed in Christ, and it was that child-like faith that had saved him in his Near-Death Experience from the gates of hell: Atheist Howard Storm's Near Death Experience http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF7AzxplsME further notes: The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely 'Monitored' Near Death Experience of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 The Scientific Evidence for Near Death Experiences - Dr Jeffery Long - Melvin Morse M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/bornagain77
December 10, 2010
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I disagree, Barry. I think God can create using completely random processes, which are analogical to free will. Foreknowing the outcome of the random processes means that God is still in control of what happens, just as He is still in control of what happens when He allows us free will. So yes, a Christian can be a true Darwinist.Bilbo I
December 10, 2010
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---BarryA: "I argued that one can be, and you have not given me any reason to change my mind." I think the key determinant here is the meaning of the word, "oxymoron," which I define as a figure of speech that combines two contradictory terms. In order to compare and contrast those terms, that is, to determine if they do, indeed, contradict one another, we must first be able to define them in an unambiguous way and in the same comparable context. Otherwise, no contradiction is possible and the proposed oxymoron cannot be determined to be either true or false. If Christianity can be anything at all, if no defining context is presented, and as long as its proponents claim to be in that fold regardless of their theology, the question about an oxymoron is unanswerable and irrelevant. What, then, is the defining context by which we can discern whether or not Christian Darwinism is or is not an oxymoron. Is it not evolutionary science and the question of design? From this vantage point, a Christian's faithfulness to Biblical living or adherence to dogmas] is not the main issue. Rather, the point is his orientation to Christianity's teaching that God intended, by whatever means, to produce an outcome in keeping with His original intent. Christians accept this basic, and I would say, definitive teaching, while Darwinists do not. Thus, in that context at least, Christian Darwinism is an oxymoron. I know of no other contexts with boundaries clear enough to make this calculation.StephenB
December 10, 2010
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tsmith, Levine, Miller and Provine are simply wrong. Darwinism does not “compel” belief in philosophical materialism. As I pointed out in [8] above, Christian Stephen Barr would say that Darwinian mechanisms are secondary causes, but those causes are created by an omnipotent, omniscient omni-benevolent God. Barr is perfectly comfortable with “methodological materialism,” while at the same time rejecting a more overarching “philosophical materialism.” Nevertheless, you touch on something very important. As I explained in my point 3 in the OP, Darwinism is a universal acid that eats away at religious belief. Why? Because for every person like Stephen Barr who can compartmentalize the two kinds of materialism, there are dozens [scores? hundreds? thousands?] who cannot. It is very easy to slide down the slope of materialism from “methodological” to “philosophical.” That is why even though Darwinism does not compel belief in philosophical materialism, it is nevertheless very dangerous to faith.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2010
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the darwinists sure don't think christianity and darwinism are compatible.. "Darwin knew that accepting his theory required believing in philosophical materialism, the conviction that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. Darwinian evolution was not only purposeless but also heartless--a process in which the rigors of nature ruthlessly eliminate the unfit. Suddenly, humanity was reduced to just one more species in a world that cared nothing for us. The great human mind was no more than a mass of evolving neurons. Worst of all, there was no divine plan to guide us." (Biology: Discovering Life, by Joseph S. Levine & Kenneth R. Miller (1st edition, D.C. Heath and Co., 1992), pg. 152; emphasis in original) Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent." Provine, William B. [Professor of Biological Sciences, Cornell University], ", "Evolution: Free will and punishment and meaning in life", Abstract of Will Provine's 1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address.tsmith
December 10, 2010
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StephenB, I am with you. I am not for a minute suggesting that Christian Darwinism is defensible intellectually. Just the opposite is true. The issue is whether one can be mistaken about this issue and still be a Christian. I argued that one can be, and you have not given me any reason to change my mind.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2010
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Christianity = apriori intent by a designer leading to a desired outcome that conforms perfectly to the designers intention. ["I knew you before you were in your mother's womb"]. Darwinism = no design, no intent, and a surprise outcome. ["Evolution is a purposeless, mindless process that did not have man in mind."] Christian Darwinism = Apriori intent coupled with no intent at all, a predictable outcome coupled with a surprise outcome, a design coupled with no design, rationality coupled with irrationality.StephenB
December 10, 2010
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Barry: Might I suggest this thread be re-filed under the category "Religion", instead of "Intelligent Design", as was the case for Denyse's original article? (Personally, I do find this all quite interesting, and your response quite helpful) Maybe the "category" could be more prominently displayed at the tops of the posts. Just a suggestion, since we do talk about a wide range of topics on this site, and I especially enjoy the theological/philosophical ones. Arrington writes: I never pay attention to those tags. If you look at my posts you will see the are all under "Intelligent Design" no matter what the topic. Maybe I'll reform but probably not.SCheesman
December 10, 2010
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lastyearon asks: “What does all this have to do with Intelligent Design? This is way off topic. I am Jewish, and am not interested hearing about what one must believe in order to be a Christian. I come here to read about ID.” Arrington writes: If you are not interested in reading about what it takes to be a Christian, then don’t read it. Don't go around telling other people what they should write about or be interested in. I would never be so presumptuous as to tell you what you should be writing about. Why do you think you can come onto my blog and tell me what I should be writing about? Barry Arrington
December 10, 2010
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Christianity = God created life or designed the life process [rational] Darwinism = God did not create life or design the life process [irrational] Christian Darwinism = God designed the process except that he didn't. [irrational and schizophrenic]StephenB
December 10, 2010
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Ilion, you state that a Darwinist cannot be a Christian because the term “God” in the Romans 10 formula “refers to the Creator (which Christianity maintains is, in fact, Christ himself); to say “God raised Jesus from the dead” is to say ‘He who creates and sustains the existence of all things raised Jesus from the dead.’” I find myself in the very odd position of defending Christian Darwinists with whom I very much disagree. However, here goes. Your argument fails because you fail to account for different levels of causation in the act of creation. Non-Darwinist Christians belief that God caused living things to come into being by acting directly in space and time. In other words, they believe that in his act of creation God is a primary cause of living things. A Darwinist Christian (such as Stephen Barr) would say that God uses secondary causes (in particular, mechanical necessity and random variation) to create living things. However, God created the secondary causes and upholds and sustains all things even as the secondary causes create living things. Either way, one can say that “He who creates and sustains the existence of all things raised Jesus from the dead.” Therefore, the distinction upon which you rely in your argument fails to hold.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2010
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To help those who struggle with believing God could actually raise Christ from the dead, this following video may help you understand a little of what happened in the tomb of Christ: General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy, and The Shroud Of Turin http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5070355/ The first part of this paper clarifies the overall details in the video a bit more clearly: Intelligent Design - The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.htmlbornagain77
December 10, 2010
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What does all this have to do with Intelligent Design? This is way off topic. I am Jewish, and am not interested hearing about what one must believe in order to be a Christian. I come here to read about ID.lastyearon
December 10, 2010
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... and, as you yourself go on to show in observations (2) and (3), your claim in observation (1) (that the phrase “Christian Darwinist” is not an oxymoron) is false.Ilion
December 10, 2010
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BA1. The phrase “Christian Darwinist” is not an oxymoron. Look at the Romans 10 formula again. The line is simple and bright. The scripture says that if a person confesses Jesus and believes in his heart, he will be saved. Even if we assume for the sake of argument that Darwinism is dead wrong, it makes no difference. The formula is confess and believe. It is not confess and believe and hold a correct view of evolution.” But, you’re wrong. The term ‘God’ in the profession or belief (“God raised Jesus from the dead”) is not a meaningless term: it refers to some things and not to others. ‘God’ isn’t *just* some being who raised Jesus from the dead – hell, a space-alien with advanced technology could fit that bill. No, ‘God’ refers to the Creator (which Christianity maintains is, in fact, Christ himself); to say “God raised Jesus from the dead” is to say “He who creates and sustains the existence of all things raised Jesus from the dead.” But Darwinism is all about denying that there even is a being who “who creates and sustains the existence of all things.” While one can be an evolutionist and a Christian, one simply cannot be a Darwinist and a Christian.Ilion
December 10, 2010
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This is an excellent response, Mr. Arrington. I have to confess I feel an inner conflict on this issue, as I have a hard time accepting those who are not Trinitarian (a key point of the Apostles and Nicene Creeds) as Christians. But I think you have spoken to the heart of the matter; at least I feel so convicted. Besides, it's not my business to make the final determination but God's.QuiteID
December 10, 2010
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