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Is there an atheist value system, at odds with traditional ones?

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File:Atheism.svg We are told so at Commentary, using the Soviet Union by way of demonstration:

Bolshevik ethics began and ended with atheism. Only someone who rejected all religious or quasi-religious morals could be a Bolshevik because, as Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, and countless other Bolshevik leaders insisted, success for the Party was the only standard of right and wrong. The bourgeoisie falsely claim that Bolsheviks have no ethics, Lenin explained in a 1920 speech. No, he said; what Bolsheviks rejected was an ethical framework based on God’s commandments or anything resembling them, such as abstract principles, timeless values, universal human rights, or any tenet of philosophical idealism. For a true materialist, he maintained, there could be no Kantian categorical imperative to treat others only as ends, not as means. By the same token, the materialist does not acknowledge the impermissibility of lying or the supposed sanctity of human life. All such notions, Lenin declared, are “based on extra human and extra class concepts” and so are simply religion in disguise. “That is why we say that to us there is no such thing as a morality that stands outside human society,” he said. “That is a fraud. To us morality is subordinated to the interests of the proletariat’s class struggle.” That meant the Communist Party. Aron Solts, who was known as “the conscience of the Party,” explained: “We…can say openly and frankly: yes, we hold in prison those who interfere with the establishment of our order, and we do not stop before other such actions because we do not believe in the existence of abstractly unethical actions.”

Ethics were reduced to what a character in Vasily Grossman’s novel Forever Flowing identified as a reverse categorical imperative, “a categorical imperative counterposed to Kant”: Always use people as objects. Do unto class enemies what you would not want them to do unto you. That is why, starting in mid-1937, torture was used in all interrogations, not just to extract information. What objection could be raised? Ruthlessness without prompting showed that the torturer harbored no abstract moral standard, even unconsciously. It was a positive good to arrest the innocent. There were special camps for the wives of enemies of the people, campaigns to arrest members of a profession (engineers), and mass arrests by quota. As good Bolsheviks, local NKVD branches asked to arrest even more. “The concept of personal innocence,” a character in Grossman’s greatest novel, Life and Fate, avers, “is a hangover from the Middle Ages.”
Garry Saul Morson, “Among the Disbelievers: Why atheism was central to the great evil of the 20th century” at Commentary

That would account for the scale of the mass murders, certainly. It’s difficult reading. When out of power, atheists tend to be against censorship and coercion but it’s a good question whether a pure naturalist (nature is all there is) who doubts free will and thinks consciousness an evolved illusion has any reason to value the life of the mind except as a way of forcing his will on things.

Closing official religion coverage for the week, apologies for lateness due to the Ottawa tornado and power outage.

See also: Are atheists less tolerant than others? One problem for atheists is that they are often assumed to be open-minded which means that they do not have to ask themselves questions or cultivate the quality, and often therefore don’t. People like Gunter Bechly may well have some stories about that.

Comments
hgp @ 15
Hello!
Hi!
Atheists are free to adopt any moral or ethical system they choose..
I don’t know whether you see what you said here. If atheists can adopt any ethical system, then they can adopt ANY(!) ethical system even the system described above that the NKVD torturers adopted. Since they don’T acknowledge any objective standard, they don’t have any objective measure to judge ethical systems from each other.
That's right. Now, if there is no objective morality somehow baked into the fabric of the Universe and there is no God to dispense moral commandments, how do we set about constructing a set of moral guidelines that works for all of us? If God did it, according to Christianity, why can't we?
What they can claim is to have chosen or worked out such a system for themselves
While I admit that atheists can claim this, this doesn’t necessarily means that this is so. In a world where atheists can adopt ANY ethical system, some adopt systems that let them manipulate, force or pressure their peers into adopting a moral system convenient for the manipulator and pressurer. Others will be manipulated or forced into adopting a moral system that is just convenient for someone else with greater intelligence or force while claiming that they made their own choice
Shouldn't one of the purposes of any moral code be to protect the life, heath and rights of all members of a society from being violated by the worst impulses of the few that are driven to act on them?
They only difference is that they cannot – and would not – cite God as the ultimate authority for that system.
But they can. They only have to adopt an ethical system that allows them to cite wrong foundations for their ethical system. It might not be that simple to find real world examples that convince you, since you would categorize those people as believers based on their proclamations. But you must (should;o) admit, that this is at least possible.
It's possible. People are able to hold all sorts of inconsistent, even contradictory, beliefs without apparently being troubled by any sense of cognitive dissonance.
They do not rely on God to tell them what is right or wrong
Exactly that’s the problem. The basic difference between atheist and God-based ethical systems is not that believers claim to be too stupid to judge right from wrong. The main difference is, that in God-based system it is acknowledged that there exists an external objective standard for right and wrong. And while the believer (hopefully) admits that he has only an imperfect grasp of this standard, he can make his own imperfect judgements based on his imperfect grasp of this external standard.
To an atheist that just sounds like an attempt to annex the moral high ground by planting God on it. In what way are God's moral judgements any more objective than those of any other individual?
OTOH atheists can’t have external objective ethical standards. No standard can be objective for him and every external standard (say by the society) can be (privately or publicly, as the case may be) overridden by the atheist. So the atheist can base his moral judgements on anything. And if they base their judgement relies on what is good for the communist party, who can contradict them (without perishing in the GULAG)?
Yes, in the absence of any objective standards for morality, each and every one of us can dream up our own. The problem is that moral standards, by definition, are intended to regulate how all members of a society behave towards one another so they must apply to all. This leads to a dilemma, either one morality is imposed on all by force or, somehow, members of a society reach an agreement on a code which is acceptable to all and by which all can abide voluntarily. Neither is without its problems but which, on balance, is the better approach?Seversky
September 26, 2018
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Seversky @ 53, >Everything is permitted by who? Perhaps he meant permitted by the absence of an authority. But ask Dostoevsky what he meant: Supposedly he once wrote, "Now assume there is no God or immortality of the soul. Now tell me, why should I live righteously and do good deeds if I am to die entirely on earth?...And if that is so, why shouldn't I (as long as I can rely on my cleverness and agility to avoid being caught by the law) cut another man's throat , rob, and steal..."EDTA
September 26, 2018
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Divorce rates may or may not be declining; it varies by cohort. But our (U.S.) least Christian era (1940's - present) has the highest divorce rates of any era. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/23/144-years-of-marriage-and-divorce-in-the-united-states-in-one-chart/?utm_term=.58025e7b38e5&noredirect=on It depends a lot on what divorce rate you use too (per capita, per married women, what?). Since marriage rates are falling, one would expect fewer divorces per capita. The Baby Boomers are also messing with the stats here, by divorcing at unprecedented rates: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319694303_Marriage_Cohabitation_and_Divorce_in_Later_Life https://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-failing-marriage-is-about-to-make-the-retirement-crisis-worse-2017-03-13 And I wouldn't be surprised if marriages today aren't of slightly higher quality because those choosing the institution have to really want it (as opposed to entering it unthinkingly or because it was expected of you).EDTA
September 26, 2018
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anthropic @ 14
“Without God, everything is permitted.” Dostoevsky Prescient…
Trite. Everything is permitted by who?Seversky
September 26, 2018
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bornagain77 @ 11
as to Seversky’s claim “Atheists are free to adopt any moral or ethical system they choose, including Christian.” Thus you, by default, are admitting that atheism cannot ground morality within itself. i.e. Atheism is amoral.
Of course it is. So is relativity theory or quantum mechanics. They are claims about the nature of reality. You cannot derive moral principles from any of them.
And yet you find it necessary to adopt a system of morality.
Of course. The stability of any human society depends on having an agreed set of principles or guidelines to regulate how people behave towards one another.
Why not stay true to the amorality inherent within your atheistic worldview since you hold your worldview to be true?
There are any number of worldviews that are consistent with atheism although I should say I find the whole notion of a worldview suspect. Usually it's more like just another way of stereotyping people into vaguely-defined groups like 'conservative' or 'progressive'.
So Seversky, since they are staying true to the amorality inherent within their atheism, and you are not staying true to it, who are you to tell them that they were wrong to kill tens of millions of their fellow citizens?
I can make my judgements about morality just like anyone else can. I just can't claim God's authority for them. But since I find no good reason to think He exists, that's irrelevant.Seversky
September 26, 2018
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Andre
Be so kind and enlighten us about what this fundamentalism is all about? Give it your best shot.
By “fundamentalist” I just mean those who who have a strict unwavering interpretation of their religious texts. I don’t like the term “conservative” with respect to religion because you can be an ardent believer in Jesus without being a fiscal or social conservative.R J Sawyer
September 26, 2018
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"Call it liberal christianity if you prefer" HMMM, The paper itself calls the declining group "not strong affiliation". That certainly sounds like lukewarm, liberal, Christians to me. My paper in post 47 backed up my hunch. By the way, my church is growing and thriving with packed services every Sunday. And the pastors and congregation certainly literally believe “Jesus rose from the dead with a real flesh-and-blood body leaving behind an empty tomb.” His victory over death was certainly NOT a metaphor or whatever else crap that liberal theologians try to call it nowadays. But the question remains, why do you defend the abject failure of atheism as a worldview, as outlined in the article in the OP, by trying to belittle Christianity? To call such a move on your part disingenuous would be to put it too mildly. As stated previously, "R J Sawyer, the proper way to respond to the undeniable fact, highlighted in the OP, that Atheism is an absolutely horrid form of government that produces unimaginable horror (for its people), is to honestly admit that atheism is a false worldview that cannot possibly ground morality. It is not for you to try to belittle Christianity by any which way you can. Your knee jerk reaction to attack Christianity whenever Atheism is shown, without reservation, to be a false worldview, far from showing you to be a reasonable, rational, person reveals your ulterior motive against Christianity. In short, you are a atheistic troll who could care less for the truth (and only care to attack Christianity) Sooner or later the admins will grow tired of your games and you will be banned (once again). (My bet is sooner rather than later)bornagain77
September 26, 2018
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RJ Be so kind and enlighten us about what this fundamentalism is all about? Give it your best shot. Liberal values is an oxymoron to start off with because it literally means many standards. Many standards don't really work for human beings. Over to you RJ woo us with your brilliance.Andre
September 26, 2018
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BA77
And again, since liberal Christianity is what gave us Darwin’s horrid theory in the first place, I am very happy that liberal, lukewarm, Christianity is dying in America whilst conservative Christianity is growing.
That paper clearly shows that religious belief is declining (call it liberal christianity if you prefer), but it does not show that conservative christianity is growing. It just shows that conservative (fundamentalist) christianity is persisting at the same percentage of the population. However, what is happening is that the percentage of conservative christians is increasing relative that the total number of christians.R J Sawyer
September 26, 2018
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Liberal churches are dying. But conservative churches are thriving. A Canadian study found that conservative churches are still growing, while less orthodox congregations dwindle away. By David Haskell - January 4, 2017 Excerpt: liberal theology has been taught for decades in mainline seminaries and preached from many mainline pulpits. Its enduring appeal to embattled clergy members is that it gives intellectual respectability to religious ideas that, on the surface, might appear far-fetched to modern audiences. But the liberal turn in mainline churches doesn’t appear to have solved their problem of decline. Over the last five years, my colleagues and I conducted a study of 22 mainline congregations in the province of Ontario. We compared those in the sample that were growing mainline congregations to those that were declining. After statistically analyzing the survey responses of over 2,200 congregants and the clergy members who serve them, we came to a counterintuitive discovery: Conservative Protestant theology, with its more literal view of the Bible, is a significant predictor of church growth while liberal theology leads to decline. The results were published this month in the peer-reviewed journal, Review of Religious Research.,,, For example, we found 93 percent of clergy members and 83 percent of worshipers from growing churches agreed with the statement “Jesus rose from the dead with a real flesh-and-blood body leaving behind an empty tomb.” This compared with 67 percent of worshipers and 56 percent of clergy members from declining churches. Furthermore, all growing church clergy members and 90 percent of their worshipers agreed that “God performs miracles in answer to prayers,” compared with 80 percent of worshipers and a mere 44 percent of clergy members from declining churches. https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/04/liberal-churches-are-dying-but-conservative-churches-are-thriving/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.427ef53aa8bf
It is no wonder that liberal, 'lukewarm', Christianity is dying away in America. Moreover, I am very happy about the fact that liberal, lukewarm, Christianity is dying! Liberal Christians, such as the crowd over at Biologos that champion "Theistic Evolution", have compromised their faith so much that they have ended up defending Darwinian atheists whilst attacking Intelligent Design and/or anyone else who dares actually believe that God may have created life on earth. Moreover, it might surprise some to learn that Charles Darwin himself was not trained in science or in math, (or in any other field that might be considered useful to the founding of an entirely new branch of science), but was instead trained in 'liberal' Anglican theology.
Religious views of Charles Darwin Excerpt: Charles Darwin had a non-conformist Unitarian background, but attended a Church of England school.[1] With the aim of becoming a clergyman he went to the University of Cambridge for the required BA degree, which included studies of Anglican theology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Charles_Darwin
Since Darwin's book ‘Origin of Species’, besides being bad science, is also rife with bad liberal theology, it is also not surprising to learn that the liberal ‘unscientific’ Anglican clergy of Darwin’s day were very eager to jump on the Darwinian bandwagon from the beginning, whilst the ‘scientific’ Church of England clergy shunned it:
“Religious views were mixed, with the Church of England scientific establishment reacting against the book, while liberal Anglicans strongly supported Darwin’s natural selection as an instrument of God’s design.” per wikipedia
As mentioned previously, Darwin's book "Origin" is mainly a liberal theological treatise rather than a scientific book
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 Excerpt: The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action; as Dilley observes: I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): 1. Human beings are not justified in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the 'simplest mode' to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part's function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first 'primordial' life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html Charles Darwin's use of theology in the Origin of Species - STEPHEN DILLEY Abstract This essay examines Darwin's positiva (or positive) use of theology in the first edition of the Origin of Species in three steps. First, the essay analyses the Origin's theological language about God's accessibility, honesty, methods of creating, relationship to natural laws and lack of responsibility for natural suffering; the essay contends that Darwin utilized positiva theology in order to help justify (and inform) descent with modification and to attack special creation. Second, the essay offers critical analysis of this theology, drawing in part on Darwin's mature ruminations to suggest that, from an epistemic point of view, the Origin's positiva theology manifests several internal tensions. Finally, the essay reflects on the relative epistemic importance of positiva theology in the Origin's overall case for evolution. The essay concludes that this theology served as a handmaiden and accomplice to Darwin's science. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=376799F09F9D3CC8C2E7500BACBFC75F.journals?aid=8499239&fileId=S000708741100032X
To this day, since the scientific evidence contradicts Darwin's theory at every turn, Darwinists are still very much dependent on bad liberal theology in order to try to make their case:
Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys - Paul Nelson - September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise's Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous "God-wouldn't-have-done-it-that-way" arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky's essay "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky's essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: "Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist's arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky's arguments.",, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of theology? - Dilley S. - 2013 Abstract This essay analyzes Theodosius Dobzhansky's famous article, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution," in which he presents some of his best arguments for evolution. I contend that all of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon sectarian claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. Moreover, Dobzhansky's theology manifests several tensions, both in the epistemic justification of his theological claims and in their collective coherence. I note that other prominent biologists--such as Mayr, Dawkins, Eldredge, Ayala, de Beer, Futuyma, and Gould--also use theology-laden arguments. I recommend increased analysis of the justification, complexity, and coherence of this theology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890740 podcast - Paul Nelson on Methodological Naturalism and the Big New Theistic Evolution Anthology - January 31, 2018 https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/intelligentdesign/episodes/2018-01-31T12_43_00-08_00
Darwinists, with their vital dependence on bad liberal theology, instead of any compelling scientific evidence in order to try to make their case for Darwinian evolution are, as Cornelius Van Til put it, like the child who must climb up onto his father’s lap into order to slap his face.
“In other words, the non-Christian needs the truth of the Christian religion in order to attack it. As a child needs to sit on the lap of its father in order to slap the father’s face, so the unbeliever, as a creature, needs God the Creator and providential controller of the universe in order to oppose this God. Without this God, the place on which he stands does not exist. He cannot stand in a vacuum.” Cornelius Van Til, Essays on Christian Education (The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company: Phillipsburg, NJ, 1979).
And again, since liberal Christianity is what gave us Darwin's horrid theory in the first place, I am very happy that liberal, lukewarm, Christianity is dying in America whilst conservative Christianity is growing. Verse:
Revelation 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
bornagain77
September 26, 2018
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Bob o'H@42, Thank you for the link. An interesting read. That confirms what I have perceived anecdotally. In general, religiosity and belief is declining but fundamentalism remains consistent.R J Sawyer
September 26, 2018
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Moreover, besides undermining Darwinian atheism from within, when we rightly let the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into the picture of modern physics, as quantum mechanics now demands and as the Christian founders of modern science had originally envisioned, (Sir Isaac Newton, James Clerk Maxwell, Michael Faraday, and Max Planck, to name a few), then an empirically backed reconciliation, (via the Shroud of Turin), between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, i.e. the ‘Theory of Everything’, readily pops out for us in Christ’s resurrection from the dead.
Shroud of Turin: From discovery of Photographic Negative, to 3D Information, to Hologram https://youtu.be/F-TL4QOCiis Particle Radiation from the Body – July 2012 – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images. http://www.academicjournals.org/sre/PDF/pdf2012/30JulSpeIss/Antonacci.pdf Copernican Principle, Agent Causality, and Jesus Christ as the “Theory of Everything” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NziDraiPiOw
Moreover, in regards to free will, it is important to point out that although free will is often thought of as allowing someone to choose between a veritable infinity of options, in a theistic view of reality that veritable infinity of options all boils down to just two options. Eternal life, (infinity if you will), with God, or Eternal life, (infinity again if you will), without God. C.S. Lewis states the situation as such:
“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell." - C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce
And exactly as would be expected on the Christian view of reality, we find two very different eternities in reality. An ‘infinitely destructive’ eternity associated with General Relativity and a extremely orderly eternity associated with Special Relativity:
Quantum Mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity and Christianity - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4QDy1Soolo
Verses:
Matthew 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
bornagain77
September 26, 2018
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The first part of the following video gives a deeper insight into that conflict, over the correct interpretation of time, between Einstein and the Philosophers:
Albert Einstein vs. Quantum Mechanics and His Own Mind – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxFFtZ301j4
As was also highlighted in the preceding video, years later in 1935, Einstein was specifically asked by another philosopher, “Can physics demonstrate the existence of ‘the now’ in order to make the notion of ‘now’ into a scientifically valid term?”
“Can physics demonstrate the existence of ‘the now’ in order to make the notion of ‘now’ into a scientifically valid term?” – Rudolf Carnap
And again, Einstein’s answer was categorical. Einstein answered: “The experience of ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics.”
“The experience of ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics.” – Albert Einstein Quote was taken from the last few minutes of this following video. Stanley L. Jaki: “The Mind and Its Now” https://vimeo.com/10588094
Moreover, the statement Einstein made to Carnap on the train, ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement’, was an interesting statement for Einstein to make to the philosopher since ‘the now of the mind’ has, from many recent experiments in quantum mechanics, undermined the space-time of Einstein’s General Relativity as to being the absolute frame of reference for reality. For instance, as the following researcher stated, “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,”
Reality doesn’t exist until we measure it, (Delayed Choice) quantum experiment confirms – Mind = blown. – FIONA MACDONALD – 1 JUN 2015 Excerpt: “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” lead researcher and physicist Andrew Truscott said in a press release. http://www.sciencealert.com/reality-doesn-t-exist-until-we-measure-it-quantum-experiment-confirms
And as Scott Aaronson stated in his following lecture notes on quantum computation, “Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists,,, But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!”
Lecture 11: Decoherence and Hidden Variables – Scott Aaronson – MIT associate Professor (Quantum Computation) Excerpt: “Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!” http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec11.html
i.e. ‘the Now’, as philosophers term it, and contrary to what Einstein (and Jaki) thought possible for experimental physics, and according to advances in quantum mechanics, takes precedence over past events in time. Moreover, due to advances in quantum mechanics, it would now be much more appropriate to phrase Einstein’s answer to the philosopher in this way:
“It is impossible for the experience of ‘the now of the mind’ to ever be divorced from physical measurement, it will always be a part of physics.” – paraphrase
As mentioned previously, besides 'the experience of the now', the mental attribute of ‘free will’ also lends itself to physical examination.
Further clarification of free will: "Free will: a source totally detached from matter (detached from nature) which is the origin (cause) of options, thoughts, feelings,… That is, the absence of (natural) laws, the existence of an “autonomous mind”, i.e. a principium individuationis."
In fact, Anton Zeilinger and company have just recently closed the 'free will loop-hole' within quantum mechanics:
Quantum mechanics: Pushing the “free-will loophole” back to 7.8 billion years ago – September 14, 2018 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/pushing-the-free-will-loophole-back-to-7-8-billion-years-ago/
As well, Contexuality and/or the Kochen-Speckter Theorem also both confirm the reality of free will within quantum mechanics. With contextuality we find, “In the quantum world, the property that you discover through measurement is not the property that the system actually had prior to the measurement process. What you observe necessarily depends on how you carried out the observation” and “Measurement outcomes depend on all the other measurements that are performed – the full context of the experiment. Contextuality means that quantum measurements can not be thought of as simply revealing some pre-existing properties of the system under study. ”
Contextuality is ‘magic ingredient’ for quantum computing – June 11, 2012 Excerpt: Contextuality was first recognized as a feature of quantum theory almost 50 years ago. The theory showed that it was impossible to explain measurements on quantum systems in the same way as classical systems. In the classical world, measurements simply reveal properties that the system had, such as colour, prior to the measurement. In the quantum world, the property that you discover through measurement is not the property that the system actually had prior to the measurement process. What you observe necessarily depends on how you carried out the observation. Imagine turning over a playing card. It will be either a red suit or a black suit – a two-outcome measurement. Now imagine nine playing cards laid out in a grid with three rows and three columns. Quantum mechanics predicts something that seems contradictory – there must be an even number of red cards in every row and an odd number of red cards in every column. Try to draw a grid that obeys these rules and you will find it impossible. It’s because quantum measurements cannot be interpreted as merely revealing a pre-existing property in the same way that flipping a card reveals a red or black suit. Measurement outcomes depend on all the other measurements that are performed – the full context of the experiment. Contextuality means that quantum measurements can not be thought of as simply revealing some pre-existing properties of the system under study. That’s part of the weirdness of quantum mechanics. http://phys.org/news/2014-06-weird-magic-ingredient-quantum.html
And with the Kochen-Speckter Theorem we find, as leading experimental physicist Anton Zeilinger states in the following video, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.”
“The Kochen-Speckter Theorem talks about properties of one system only. So we know that we cannot assume – to put it precisely, we know that it is wrong to assume that the features of a system, which we observe in a measurement exist prior to measurement. Not always. I mean in a certain cases. So in a sense, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.” Anton Zeilinger – Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism – video (7:17 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4C5pq7W5yRM#t=437
It is also interesting to note that recent this experimental confirmation of free will within quantum mechanics undermines the Darwinian worldview from within. As Steven Weinberg, who is an atheist himself, states in the following article, (in quantum mechanics) humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level.,,, the instrumentalist approach (in quantum mechanics) turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else.,,, In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure,,, Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,,
The Trouble with Quantum Mechanics – Steven Weinberg – January 19, 2017 Excerpt: The instrumentalist approach,, (the) wave function,, is merely an instrument that provides predictions of the probabilities of various outcomes when measurements are made.,, In the instrumentalist approach,,, humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”11 Thus the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else. It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to understand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation by incorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduction from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to give up this goal,,, Some physicists who adopt an instrumentalist approach argue that the probabilities we infer from the wave function are objective probabilities, independent of whether humans are making a measurement. I don’t find this tenable. In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,, http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/01/19/trouble-with-quantum-mechanics/
bornagain77
September 26, 2018
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To continue on with the fact touched upon in post 41 that for anything to be 'real' for us in the first place then consciousness is not, and can never be, derivative from some material substrate as Darwinian atheists hold, but consciousness itself, i.e. the Mind of God, must be the primary substratum from which everything else is derived. The founders of quantum mechanics, and others, put this ‘obvious’ and simple fact for something to be 'real' like this.
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the main founder of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334. “In any philosophy of reality that is not ultimately self-defeating or internally contradictory, mind – unlabeled as anything else, matter or spiritual – must be primary. What is “matter” and what is “conceptual” and what is “spiritual” can only be organized from mind. Mind controls what is perceived, how it is perceived, and how those percepts are labeled and organized. Mind must be postulated as the unobserved observer, the uncaused cause simply to avoid a self-negating, self-conflicting worldview. It is the necessary postulate of all necessary postulates, because nothing else can come first. To say anything else comes first requires mind to consider and argue that case and then believe it to be true, demonstrating that without mind, you could not believe that mind is not primary in the first place.” – William J. Murray He goes toe-to-toe with science big wigs… and so far he’s undefeated. – interview Dr. Bernardo Kastrup: You see we always start from the fact that we are conscious. Consciousness is the only carrier of reality and existence that we can know. Everything else is abstraction; [they] are inferences we make from consciousness. http://www.skeptiko.com/274-bernardo-kastrup-why-our-culture-is-materialistic/
And while the logic that for anything to be 'real' for us in the first place then consciousness must necessarily be primary, not derivative, is straightforward, and, on pain of denying the reality of personhood itself, undeniable (Descartes), it should also be noted that the primary mental attribute of Qualia defies ever being reduced to any possible physical examination and/or explanation.
“what it is like to taste a specific apple, this particular apple now”. Examples of qualia include the perceived sensation of pain of a headache, the taste of wine, as well as the redness of an evening sky.,, – per wikipedia
This inability to reduce the primary subjective mental attribute of qualia to physical examination and/or explanation is referred to as “the hard problem” of consciousness,,,
David Chalmers on Consciousness (Descartes, Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem of Consciousness) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo
And indeed one would be very hard pressed to produce any experimental evidence for the primary subjective mental attribute of qualia. For prime example, the only 'scientific' evidence that I can produce for my claim that "for anything to be 'real' for us in the first place then consciousness itself, i.e. the Mind of God, must be the primary substratum from which everything else is derived", is this anecdotal evidence from personal testimonies about the 'realness' of Near Death Experiences. To quote the headline of the following article, 'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real”
'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/
Exactly how is it even possible for something to become even ‘more real than real’ for a person in a NDE unless consciousness, i.e. the infinite Mind of God, truly is the basis for all reality, and this material reality we presently live in, as is claimed in Christianity, really is just a shadow of the heavenly paradise that awaits us after death? On Christianity this ‘more real than real’ finding is expected whereas, once again, materialism is found to be at a complete loss to explain why this 'more real than real' experience should even happen in the first place.
A Doctor's Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life - video Quote: "It's not like a dream. It's like the world we are living in is a dream and it's kind of like waking up from that." Dr. Magrisso http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-air/as-seen-on/A-Doctor--186331791.html Medical Miracles – Dr. Mary Neal’s Near Death Experience – video (More real than real quote at 37:49 minute mark) https://youtu.be/WCNjmWP2JjU?t=2269 "More real than anything I've experienced since. When I came back of course I had 34 operations, and was in the hospital for 13 months. That was real but heaven is more real than that. The emotions and the feelings. The reality of being with people who had preceded me in death." - Don Piper - "90 Minutes in Heaven," 10 Years Later - video (2:54 minute mark) https://youtu.be/3LyZoNlKnMM?t=173
And whereas qualia will never lend itself to rigorous physical examination and/or explanation, on the other hand we find that the mental attributes of “the experience of the now” and ‘free will’, do lend themselves to physical examination. The simplest way to define “the now” and/or “the experience of the now” is to say that we have a unique mental perspective of being outside ‘space-time’. An 'outside of time' mental perspective where we watch as time passes us by. That is to say, our perspective of being in “the now” is permanent whilst time is ever changing, i.e. 'flowing' past us. And as Antoine Suarez put it in the following video, “it is impossible for us to be ‘persons’ experiencing ‘now’ if we are nothing but particles flowing in space time. Moreover, for us to refer to ourselves as ‘persons’, we cannot refer to space-time as the ultimate substratum upon which everything exists, but must refer to a person who is not bound by space time. i.e. We must refer to God!”
Have Krauss and Hawking misidentified what they are referring to as “nothing?” Nothing: God’s new Name – Antoine Suarez – video (it is impossible for us to be ‘persons’ experiencing ‘now’ if we are nothing but particles flowing in space time. Moreover, for us to refer to ourselves as ‘persons’, we cannot refer to space-time as the ultimate substratum upon which everything exists, but must refer to a person who is not bound by space time. i.e. We must refer to God!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOr9QqyaLlA
In fact, this difference between the ‘physical time’ of scientists, and the “mental time” of “the now” of leading philosophers is one of the primary reasons that Einstein never received a Nobel prize for relativity.
Einstein vs Bergson, science vs philosophy and the meaning of time – 24 June 2015 Excerpt: ‘The key sentence was something that Einstein said: “The time of the philosophers did not exist.”’ It’s hard to know whether Bergson was expecting such a sharp jab. In just one sentence, Bergson’s notion of duration—a major part of his thesis on time—was dealt a mortal blow. As Canales reads it, the line was carefully crafted for maximum impact.,,, Bergson was outraged, but the philosopher did not take it lying down. A few months later Einstein was awarded the Nobel Prize for the discovery of the law of photoelectric effect, an area of science that Canales noted, ‘hardly jolted the public’s imagination’. In truth, Einstein coveted recognition for his work on relativity. Bergson inflicted some return humiliation of his own. By casting doubt on Einstein’s theoretical trajectory, Bergson dissuaded the (Nobel) committee from awarding (Einstein) the prize for relativity. In 1922, the jury was still out on the correct interpretation of time. So began a dispute that festered for years and played into the larger rift between physics and philosophy, science and the humanities. http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/philosopherszone/science-vs-philosophy-and-the-meaning-of-time/6539568
bornagain77
September 26, 2018
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RJ Sawyer @ 34 & ba77 @ 33 - that piece also mis-represents the research, which is here. What is actually reported is more complex.Bob O'H
September 26, 2018
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R J Sawyer claims that,,,
"I think all we can do is speak for ourselves about our beliefs,,,, we all believe that our reasons are rational and logical."
To reiterate a remark that I just quoted, "This comment displays an ignorance so astonishing that, as the Russian expression goes, one can only stare and spit." If the atheistic materialism that is foundational to Darwinian thought were actually true, there would be no agent causality. Period! No agent. No free will. No rational beliefs. No reliable observations. No etc. etc. etc. No agent causality whatsoever, just genetically determined robots with no free will whatsoever with no more control over their actions and fates than a leaf blowing in the wind. In what I consider a shining example of poetic justice, in their claim that God does not really exist as a real person but is merely an illusion, the Atheist himself also ends up claiming that he himself does not really exist as a real person but that he is merely a neuronal illusion. Here are a few references that drive this point home,,,
The Confidence of Jerry Coyne – Ross Douthat – January 6, 2014 Excerpt: But then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession (by Coyne) that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant: But more on that below.) Prometheus cannot be at once unbound and unreal; the human will cannot be simultaneously triumphant and imaginary. https://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?mcubz=3 At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that: “consciousness is an illusion” A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins ”If consciousness is an illusion… what isn’t?”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s Atheistic Materialism – Does Richard Dawkins Exist? – video 37:51 minute mark Quote: “You can spout a philosophy that says scientific materialism, but there aren’t any scientific materialists to pronounce it.,,, That’s why I think they find it kind of embarrassing to talk that way. Nobody wants to stand up there and say, “You know, I’m not really here”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVCnzq2yTCg&t=37m51s “that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.” Francis Crick – “The Astonishing Hypothesis” 1994 "The neural circuits in our brain manage the beautifully coordinated and smoothly appropriate behavior of our body. They also produce the entrancing introspective illusion that thoughts really are about stuff in the world. This powerful illusion has been with humanity since language kicked in, as we’ll see. It is the source of at least two other profound myths: that we have purposes that give our actions and lives meaning and that there is a person “in there” steering the body, so to speak." [A.Rosenberg, The Atheist's Guide To Reality, Ch.9] “I’m not arguing that consciousness is a reality beyond science or beyond the brain or that it floats free of the brain at death. I’m not making any spooky claims about its metaphysics. What I am saying, however, is that the self is an illusion. The sense of being an ego, an I, a thinker of thoughts in addition to the thoughts. An experiencer in addition to the experience. The sense that we all have of riding around inside our heads as a kind of a passenger in the vehicle of the body. That’s where most people start when they think about any of these questions. Most people don’t feel identical to their bodies. They feel like they have bodies. They feel like they’re inside the body. And most people feel like they’re inside their heads. Now that sense of being a subject, a locus of consciousness inside the head is an illusion. It makes no neuro-anatomical sense.” Sam Harris: The Self is an Illusion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajfkO_X0l0 “We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good.” Matthew D. Lieberman – neuroscientist – materialist – UCLA professor
Besides he himself becoming an illusion, the atheist's entire worldview also dissolves into pure illusion.
Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – 39:45 minute mark https://youtu.be/8rzw0JkuKuQ?t=2387 Excerpt: Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,, Paper with references for each claim page; Page 37: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pAYmZpUWFEi3hu45FbQZEvGKsZ9GULzh8KM0CpqdePk/edit
Thus, although the Darwinian Atheist firmly believes he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for methodological naturalism), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinists/Atheists are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; Matthew 7:24-27 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
bornagain77
September 25, 2018
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Seems that the atheists on this thread did not bother to read the opening remarks of the article cited in the OP: To remind:
Among the Disbelievers Why atheism was central to the great evil of the 20th century GARY SAUL MORSON / SEPT. 17, 2018 Excerpt: It’s tedious to encounter a “new atheist” intoning arguments against faith that were shopworn in Voltaire’s day. Sooner or later, he will bring up the Spanish Inquisition. To a Russian specialist like me, that example of undeniable religious cruelty is not especially impressive. In its 300-year history in Spain, Portugal, and the New World, the Spanish Inquisition killed a few thousand, perhaps even a few tens of thousands, while in the atheist Soviet Union under Lenin and Stalin, that was the average toll every week or two. To this objection, the atheist has a ready reply: Atheism had nothing to do with Bolshevik carnage. As Richard Dawkins explains in The God Delusion: “What matters is not whether Hitler and Stalin were atheists, but whether atheism systematically influences people to do bad things. There is not the smallest evidence that it does.” This comment displays an ignorance so astonishing that, as the Russian expression goes, one can only stare and spit. In her new study, A Sacred Space Is Never Empty: A History of Soviet Atheism, Victoria Smolkin demonstrates painstakingly that atheism was central to the Bolshevik project. Statements by Bolshevik leaders, Soviet instructions for youth, and the testimony of memoirs all affirm that atheism is essential to Communism. https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/among-the-disbelievers/
bornagain77
September 25, 2018
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I think all we can do is speak for ourselves about our beliefs, or lack there of, and not be judgmental. I am sure that BA77 and KF have their reason for being Christian, and others have their own reasons for being atheists. And we all believe that our reasons are rational and logical. All that matters is that people are comfortable and happy with their decisions. I may disagree with the arguments and rationale used by BA77 and KF in their defence of Christianity, but I don’t disagree with their decision. Those decisions are personal.R J Sawyer
September 25, 2018
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"If you are against segregation and against racial separation, then you are against God Almighty." --Bob Jones Sr. That is certainly a traditional value system that modern atheists wouldn't support.random.dent
September 25, 2018
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There have been plenty of traditional value systems that most modern western atheists don't support. Most modern western atheists probably wouldn't support burning 'witches', keeping slaves, raping slaves, beating your wife and kids, lynching coloreds, keeping Jews and Japs away, ad infinitum. Most modern western atheists have much better values than many of the 'traditional' ones I've seen.random.dent
September 25, 2018
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Andrew@32, I agree that everyone is looking at the same evidence and arriving at a different conclusion. That is the nature of reality. And, in some cases, the conclusions are drawn for different reasons. One person may drop their theistic beliefs because of personal tragedy, death of s child, illness in a spouse. Another person may adopt theistic beliefs as the result of the exact same incidents but due to a different train of thought and reasoning. The rationale for accepting or rejecting theistic beliefs is personal and can not always be examined using logic.R J Sawyer
September 25, 2018
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R J Sawyer, the proper way to respond to the undeniable fact, highlighted in the OP, that Atheism is an absolutely horrid form of government that produces unimaginable horror, is to honestly admit that atheism is a false worldview that cannot possibly ground morality. It is not for you to try to belittle Christianity by any which way you can. Your knee jerk reaction to attack Christianity whenever Atheism is shown, without reservation, to be a false worldview, far from showing you to be a reasonable, rational, person reveals your ulterior motive against Christianity. In short, you are a atheistic troll who could care less for the truth. Sooner or later the admins will grow tired of your games and you will be banned (once again).bornagain77
September 25, 2018
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BA77
New Harvard Research Says U.S. Christianity Is Not Shrinking, But Growing Stronger.
I wasn’t aware that the US constituted all of western civilization. Looking at your current president, some would argue just the opposite.R J Sawyer
September 25, 2018
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New Harvard Research Says U.S. Christianity Is Not Shrinking, But Growing Stronger Is churchgoing and religious adherence really in ‘widespread decline’ so much so that conservative believers should suffer ‘growing anxiety’? Absolutely not. Glenn T. Stanton - JANUARY 22, 2018 Excerpt: New research published late last year by scholars at Harvard University and Indiana University Bloomington is just the latest to reveal the myth. This research questioned the “secularization thesis,” which holds that the United States is following most advanced industrial nations in the death of their once vibrant faith culture. Churches becoming mere landmarks, dance halls, boutique hotels, museums, and all that. Not only did their examination find no support for this secularization in terms of actual practice and belief, the researchers proclaim that religion continues to enjoy “persistent and exceptional intensity” in America. These researchers hold our nation “remains an exceptional outlier and potential counter example to the secularization thesis.”,,, ,,,The percentage of Americans who attend church more than once a week, pray daily, and accept the Bible as wholly reliable and deeply instructive to their lives has remained absolutely, steel-bar constant for the last 50 years or more, right up to today. These authors describe this continuity as “patently persistent.” The percentage of such people is also not small. One in three Americans prays multiple times a day, while one in 15 do so in other countries on average. Attending services more than once a week continues to be twice as high among Americans compared to the next highest-attending industrial country, and three times higher than the average comparable nation. One-third of Americans hold that the Bible is the actual word of God. Fewer than 10 percent believe so in similar countries. The United States “clearly stands out as exceptional,” and this exceptionalism has not been decreasing over time. In fact, these scholars determine that the percentages of Americans who are the most vibrant and serious in their faith is actually increasing a bit, “which is making the United States even more exceptional over time.” http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/new-harvard-research-says-u-s-christianity-not-shrinking-growing-stronger/ of hypocritical note to RJ's post: ba77: "It seems that none of the atheists on this thread want to actually defend their atheism but only want to attack and belittle Christianity by whatever means they can." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/researcher-the-widespread-notion-that-academia-is-morally-superior-is-ridiculous/#comment-665386 R J Sawyer September 23, 2018 at 8:26 am "Nobody is attacking and belittling Christianity." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/researcher-the-widespread-notion-that-academia-is-morally-superior-is-ridiculous/#commentsbornagain77
September 25, 2018
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There are plenty of examples of atheists becoming theists, supposedly because they find the evidence for God compelling.
R J Sawyer, Everyone is looking at the same evidence. And In C.S. Lewis case it was more about him changing, rather than being presented with new evidence. I am somewhat familiar with his story, and I think the final step of his conversion happened during a ride to the zoo in a motorcycle sidecar with no special revelation taking place. Andrewasauber
September 25, 2018
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This is off topic but I thought that this might be of interest to KairosFocus and others who believe that the decline in western morality is leading us over the metaphorical cliff. https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018/09/25/millennials-are-causing-us-divorce-rate-to-plummet.html Divorce rates are declining, abortion rates are declining, rates of violent crime are declining, per capital rates of charitable giving are increasing. All at the same time that religious beliefs are declining.R J Sawyer
September 25, 2018
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Andrew
So this indicates to me that the position of Ahteism is of little value to anyone.
Why does it have to have value? I don’t believe that aliens have visited earth, that pyramids have any unknown power or that Bigfoot exists. Not believing in these is of little value, just as believing in them is of little value. Why would the belief in the existance of a god be any different?R J Sawyer
September 25, 2018
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Andrew
So, Atheists lack a belief in God AND cannot ever accept there is any evidence for God by definition or they will cease to be an Atheist (although others interpret the same evidence differently).
I’m not sure I get your point. There are plenty of examples of atheists becoming theists, supposedly because they find the evidence for God compelling. And plenty of examples of theists becoming atheists because they don’t find the evidence for the existance of God compelling.R J Sawyer
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Well according to https://www.atheistalliance.org/about-atheism/what-is-atheism/ "There is nothing you have to believe to be an atheist. Not believing in any god, is the only qualification required. Beyond that, an atheist can believe in anything at all." OK. So this indicates to me that the position of Ahteism is of little value to anyone. Andrewasauber
September 25, 2018
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Are you suggesting that Atheists accept the possibility there is a God, but any evidence for God has yet to be presented?
Yes, at least some do.
Are you suggesting that Atheism includes the possibility that God exists?
Yes. I hold very few beliefs of which I am absolutely certain. I could be wrong about nearly anything, aside from the fact that I exist. So I have to acknowledge that I could be wrong and there might be a God. Now, do you have a source that backs up your claim in #24?daveS
September 25, 2018
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