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Is there an atheist value system, at odds with traditional ones?

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File:Atheism.svg We are told so at Commentary, using the Soviet Union by way of demonstration:

Bolshevik ethics began and ended with atheism. Only someone who rejected all religious or quasi-religious morals could be a Bolshevik because, as Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, and countless other Bolshevik leaders insisted, success for the Party was the only standard of right and wrong. The bourgeoisie falsely claim that Bolsheviks have no ethics, Lenin explained in a 1920 speech. No, he said; what Bolsheviks rejected was an ethical framework based on God’s commandments or anything resembling them, such as abstract principles, timeless values, universal human rights, or any tenet of philosophical idealism. For a true materialist, he maintained, there could be no Kantian categorical imperative to treat others only as ends, not as means. By the same token, the materialist does not acknowledge the impermissibility of lying or the supposed sanctity of human life. All such notions, Lenin declared, are “based on extra human and extra class concepts” and so are simply religion in disguise. “That is why we say that to us there is no such thing as a morality that stands outside human society,” he said. “That is a fraud. To us morality is subordinated to the interests of the proletariat’s class struggle.” That meant the Communist Party. Aron Solts, who was known as “the conscience of the Party,” explained: “We…can say openly and frankly: yes, we hold in prison those who interfere with the establishment of our order, and we do not stop before other such actions because we do not believe in the existence of abstractly unethical actions.”

Ethics were reduced to what a character in Vasily Grossman’s novel Forever Flowing identified as a reverse categorical imperative, “a categorical imperative counterposed to Kant”: Always use people as objects. Do unto class enemies what you would not want them to do unto you. That is why, starting in mid-1937, torture was used in all interrogations, not just to extract information. What objection could be raised? Ruthlessness without prompting showed that the torturer harbored no abstract moral standard, even unconsciously. It was a positive good to arrest the innocent. There were special camps for the wives of enemies of the people, campaigns to arrest members of a profession (engineers), and mass arrests by quota. As good Bolsheviks, local NKVD branches asked to arrest even more. “The concept of personal innocence,” a character in Grossman’s greatest novel, Life and Fate, avers, “is a hangover from the Middle Ages.”
Garry Saul Morson, “Among the Disbelievers: Why atheism was central to the great evil of the 20th century” at Commentary

That would account for the scale of the mass murders, certainly. It’s difficult reading. When out of power, atheists tend to be against censorship and coercion but it’s a good question whether a pure naturalist (nature is all there is) who doubts free will and thinks consciousness an evolved illusion has any reason to value the life of the mind except as a way of forcing his will on things.

Closing official religion coverage for the week, apologies for lateness due to the Ottawa tornado and power outage.

See also: Are atheists less tolerant than others? One problem for atheists is that they are often assumed to be open-minded which means that they do not have to ask themselves questions or cultivate the quality, and often therefore don’t. People like Gunter Bechly may well have some stories about that.

Comments
daveS, Didn't you just agree with me that: "It is correct that if an atheist decides that the evidence for God is strong enough, s/he will become a theist, and cease to be an atheist." Are you suggesting that Atheists accept the possibility there is a God, but any evidence for God has yet to be presented? Are you suggesting that Atheism includes the possibility that God exists? Andrewasauber
September 25, 2018
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asauber, I have never heard that "not leaving the door ajar for God" is a necessary condition for being an atheist. Do you have a source for it?daveS
September 25, 2018
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daveS, If you leave the door ajar for God's foot, then you aren't an Atheist. Andrewasauber
September 25, 2018
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asauber,
Can’t let the divine foot in the door, right? There’s your value system.
No, not all atheists hold that value (or whatever it is). See C S Lewis.daveS
September 25, 2018
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Eh? What value system are you referring to?
value system - A hierarchy of values that all moral agents possess, demonstrated by their choices. value - a person's principles or standards of behavior; one's judgment of what is important in life. daveS, it is as plain as the nose on your face that you apparently can't see. Choosing to deny there are any God given parameters/laws/instructions/direction is a value/standard/epitome of behavior that every Atheist holds as vitally important. Can't let the divine foot in the door, right? There's your value system. Andrewasauber
September 25, 2018
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asauber,
Well, we have a little value system developing here don’t we? So, Atheists lack a belief in God AND cannot ever accept there is any evidence for God by definition or they will cease to be an Atheist (although others interpret the same evidence differently). Am I correct?
Eh? What value system are you referring to? It is correct that if an atheist decides that the evidence for God is strong enough, s/he will become a theist, and cease to be an atheist. C S Lewis is an example.daveS
September 25, 2018
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daveS,
They wouldn’t believe it is due to a god, certainly.
Well, we have a little value system developing here don't we? So, Atheists lack a belief in God AND cannot ever accept there is any evidence for God by definition or they will cease to be an Atheist (although others interpret the same evidence differently). Am I correct? Andrewasauber
September 25, 2018
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daves:
1) The evidence (to date) that the universe was intentionally designed is not compelling.
And yet there isn't any evidence that supports any other options.ET
September 25, 2018
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asauber,
For instance, what does every Atheist think about design in nature?
They wouldn't believe it is due to a god, certainly. I can think of a few options (this list is not meant to be exhaustive): 1) The evidence (to date) that the universe was intentionally designed is not compelling. 2) The universe does show evidence of intentional design, but that design was created and executed by a non-deity, e.g., a powerful alien civilization. 3) An atheist might decide s/he does not have the expertise needed to evaluate the evidence for design in nature.daveS
September 25, 2018
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Is there an atheist value system, at odds with traditional ones? Other than the misguided value of valuing God above all else, they are pretty much the same. Variable within a society, variable over time and variable between societies. Almost as if they were developed and instituted through our need for social interaction.R J Sawyer
September 25, 2018
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Just a lack of belief in any deity.
daveS, But it's not just that. To get to the lack of belief in any deity, you have to interpret the universe around you a certain way. For instance, what does every Atheist think about design in nature? "The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard; yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world." -Psalm 19 Andrewasauber
September 25, 2018
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Seversky @ 9 Hello!
Atheists are free to adopt any moral or ethical system they choose..
I don't know whether you see what you said here. If atheists can adopt any ethical system, then they can adopt ANY(!) ethical system even the system described above that the NKVD torturers adopted. Since they don'T acknowledge any objective standard, they don't have any objective measure to judge ethical systems from each other.
What they can claim is to have chosen or worked out such a system for themselves.
While I admit that atheists can claim this, this doesn't necessarily means that this is so. In a world where atheists can adopt ANY ethical system, some adopt systems that let them manipulate, force or pressure their peers into adopting a moral system convenient for the manipulator and pressurer. Others will be manipulated or forced into adopting a moral system that is just convenient for someone else with greater intelligence or force while claiming that they made their own choice.
They only difference is that they cannot – and would not – cite God as the ultimate authority for that system.
But they can. They only have to adopt an ethical system that allows them to cite wrong foundations for their ethical system. It might not be that simple to find real world examples that convince you, since you would categorize those people as believers based on their proclamations. But you must (should;o) admit, that this is at least possible.
They do not rely on God to tell them what is right or wrong
Exactly that's the problem. The basic difference between atheist and God-based ethical systems is not that believers claim to be too stupid to judge right from wrong. The main difference is, that in God-based system it is acknowledged that there exists an external objective standard for right and wrong. And while the believer (hopefully) admits that he has only an imperfect grasp of this standard, he can make his own imperfect judgements based on his imperfect grasp of this external standard. OTOH atheists can't have external objective ethical standards. No standard can be objective for him and every external standard (say by the society) can be (privately or publicly, as the case may be) overridden by the atheist. So the atheist can base his moral judgements on anything. And if they base their judgement relies on what is good for the communist party, who can contradict them (without perishing in the GULAG)?hgp
September 24, 2018
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"Without God, everything is permitted." Dostoevsky Prescient...anthropic
September 24, 2018
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daveS @ 12, Yes, no analogy holds up under duress.EDTA
September 24, 2018
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EDTA, I don't know that the analogy of the xy-plane holds up. If we posit that the model consists of 4-dimensional Euclidean space, with x, y, z, and w-axes, then every vector in the zw-plane is orthogonal to every vector in the xy-plane. Further, the vectors in the zw-plane do not all point in the same direction.daveS
September 24, 2018
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as to Seversky's claim "Atheists are free to adopt any moral or ethical system they choose, including Christian." Thus you, by default, are admitting that atheism cannot ground morality within itself. i.e. Atheism is amoral. And yet you find it necessary to adopt a system of morality. Why not stay true to the amorality inherent within your atheistic worldview since you hold your worldview to be true? Other atheists, such as Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, stayed true to their atheism and adopted a system of atheistic amorality, as outlined in the OP, where "the materialist does not acknowledge the impermissibility of lying or the supposed sanctity of human life. All such notions, Lenin declared, are “based on extra human and extra class concepts” and so are simply religion in disguise. “That is why we say that to us there is no such thing as a morality that stands outside human society,” he said. “That is a fraud. To us morality is subordinated to the interests of the proletariat’s class struggle.” So Seversky, since they are staying true to the amorality inherent within their atheism, and you are not staying true to it, who are you to tell them that they were wrong to kill tens of millions of their fellow citizens?
If Good and Evil Exist, God Must Exist (Prager University) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliyujhwhNM
bornagain77
September 24, 2018
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If religions make up the X-Y plane, and atheists are only defined by the fact that they want nothing to do with any existing system (i.e., they are completely orthogonal to all existing systems), then atheists are all kinda pointing in the same general direction... Perhaps it's just bad luck, but the atheists I've known have not shown me lives I wanted to emulate. If I try, I can think of religious people I wouldn't want to emulate either. But with Christianity, I'm not stuck with mere human beings as the upper limit on examples. If I were an atheist, I'd be the most depressingly cynical person I can imagine--if I'd even still be around at this point!EDTA
September 24, 2018
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Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God or any other gods. Atheists are free to adopt any moral or ethical system they choose, including Christian. They only difference is that they cannot - and would not - cite God as the ultimate authority for that system. What they can claim is to have chosen or worked out such a system for themselves. They do not rely on God to tell them what is right or wrong, something which believers are tacitly admitting they would not know otherwise and cannot judge for themselves.Seversky
September 24, 2018
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It is an interesting belief system that tries to define itself by what it does not believe, rather than by what it believes. But even so, if you get into enough detail, no two people of any named system agree on everything. The question should be do most evangelical atheists have enough they agree on to make it worth calling what they have a true belief system? Given that they have their origins stories, their spokesmen/authors, their common arguments against all other belief systems, I think it's quite safe to say that they do.EDTA
September 24, 2018
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An atheist who wishes to adopt an ethical value system (though I'm not sure why one would feel the need) would, IMO, be led logically to ethical subjectivism which puts one on a slippery slope to egoism and ultimately to "might makes right". Whether this is "at odds" with traditional systems depends pretty much on which traditional systems are under consideration.Dick
September 24, 2018
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Peace & joy. There is a difference between being a "Capital A Atheist" and being an individual who believes that the universe can work just fine without there being a Jehovah-like "god". This discussion is ONLY about Capital A Atheists. Capital A Atheists, among other things, cling to Darwinism because no serious Philosophy can exist without a Creation Myth. And Darwin's life from chance combination of chemicals in tidal pools provides an explanation for The Creation of Life. Small A atheists are, in general, people who simply lost faith in some organized religion or other they had once been taught about and no longer feel a need for ANY Creation Myth. There is a scene in the first of the Sherlock Holmes stories where Watson records an odd conversation with his new roommate in which Watson casually mentioned that the Earth goes around the Sun. Holmes was very much surprised by this, having either never heard such a thing before or completely forgotten it. Holmes then says that he will try to FORGET the Earth-Sun thing as quickly as possible because it serves no useful purpose in the everyday world. And so it is with gods. If YOU are interested in gods, either to celebrate them or to extirpate all mention of them, then there is some reason for YOU to declare yourself an Atheist or a Believer. Otherwise, one can live a perfectly normal life as an Agnostic or a believer is some very general and distant god, with poorly defined abilities and intent.vmahuna
September 24, 2018
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asauber,
What is it that Atheists have in unity that they can all refer to themselves with the same label ‘Atheist’?
Just a lack of belief in any deity.
Could it be a conclusion based on common beliefs? I don’t think you get to a similar conclusion with others unless you share some fundamental beliefs with them.
Other than believing that the evidence for the existence of deities is not compelling, I can't think of much else. Consider the set of people who do not believe that extraterrestrials have visited Earth in flying saucers or other types of ships. I would bet that that is a very diverse group, with very little in the way of common beliefs. Perhaps you and I both belong to it?daveS
September 24, 2018
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OK, daveS, What is it that Atheists have in unity that they can all refer to themselves with the same label 'Atheist'? Could it be a conclusion based on common beliefs? I don't think you get to a similar conclusion with others unless you share some fundamental beliefs with them. Andrewasauber
September 24, 2018
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Note that opportunism, utilitarianism, and materialism are not the same thing. I predict that among those claiming there is "an" (as in one) atheist value system, there will be disagreement on what precisely it is. And of course no one will be able to show how this value system logically follows from atheism.daveS
September 24, 2018
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The answer is obviously: Yes. Call it Opportunism or Utilitarianism or Materialism or Whatever Variation. It's there. Andrewasauber
September 24, 2018
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My answer: No.daveS
September 24, 2018
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