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It’s time for scientists to come clean with the public about evolution and the origin of life

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As we’ve seen, a large percentage of the American public – 47% according to a recent Harris Interactive poll – now believes in Darwin’s theory of evolution. One possible reason for this high percentage is that high school and college students are not told about the problems which call Darwin’s theory into question – as well as theories of evolution which are based on random genetic drift.

Still, there are heartening signs that the wall of ignorance supporting the dam of evolutionary orthodoxy is about to collapse. A steady stream of ground-breaking books and peer-reviewed scientific articles authored by scientists who question key assumptions of modern evolutionary theory has been coming out in the last couple of years. It is only a matter of time before these articles and books get the attention of the general public. What’s important here is that the scientists writing these books and articles are not “outsiders” who reject evolution, but “insiders” who recognize that contemporary theories of evolution are radically deficient in explaining the origin and evolution of life.

Scientists have calculated that Darwin’s theory of natural selection brings about changes too slowly for evolution to have occurred in just 4 billion years

In 2010, a paper by Herbert S. Wilf and Warren J. Ewens, titled, “There’s plenty of time for evolution”, was published in the Proceedings of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) (doi: 10.1073/pnas.1016207107). The aim of the paper’s authors was to demonstrate mathematically that “there has been ample time for the evolution that we observe to have taken place.” At the time, the article was given wide publicity, and it was featured prominently over at Professor Jerry Coyne’s Website, Why Evolution is True, while Professor P.Z. Myers claimed the paper provided “a guide to short-circuiting the invalid assumptions of creationists.” Sadly, very few people read about the devastating rebuttal of Wilf and Ewens’s paper by Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Ann K. Gauger, Robert J. Marks II, in a paper titled, Time and Information in Evolution, in BIO-Complexity, Volume 2012 (4). The authors concluded that Wilf and Ewens’s paper did not accurately model biological evolution, firstly because their model included “implicit information sources, including the equivalent of a highly informed oracle that prophesies when a mutation is ‘correct,’ thus accelerating the search by the evolutionary process,” and secondly because the model makes “unrealistic biological assumptions that, in effect, simplify the search.”

Now, however, it seems that the scientific community is finally starting to come clean about the fact that Darwinian evolution is nowhere near capable of generating the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today within the time available (four billion years).

Edward Frenkel, a professor of mathematics at the University of California, Berkeley, recently reviewed a book titled, Probably Approximately Correct: Nature’s Algorithms for Learning and Prospering in a Complex World (Basic Books, 2013) by computer scientist Leslie Valiant, in a report for the New York Times (Evolution, Speeded by Computation, September 30, 2013). The following excerpt conveys the gist of Dr. Valiant’s conclusions:

The evolution of species, as Darwin taught us, relies on natural selection. But Dr. Valiant argues that if all the mutations that drive evolution were simply random and equally distributed, it would proceed at an impossibly slow and inefficient pace.

Darwin’s theory “has the gaping gap that it can make no quantitative predictions as far as the number of generations needed for the evolution of a behavior of a certain complexity,” he writes. “We need to explain how evolution is possible at all, how we got from no life, or from very simple life, to life as complex as we find it on earth today. This is the BIG question.”

Dr. Valiant proposes that natural selection is supplemented by ecorithms, which enable organisms to learn and adapt more efficiently. Not all mutations are realized with equal probability; those that are more beneficial are more likely to occur. In other words, evolution is accelerated by computation.

The criticisms being made here of the Darwinian theory of evolution are pretty devastating: not only is it far too slow to generate life in all its diversity, but it’s also utterly incapable of making quantitative predictions about the time required for a structure of known complexity to evolve, by natural selection. And there’s no reason to believe that the “nearly neutral theory of evolution” espoused by biologists such as Professor Larry Moran would fare any better, in this regard.

So what is Dr. Valiant’s alternative? It sounds as if he is advocating some kind of teleological, or purpose-driven evolution. That’s fine, but it raises a deeper question: who or what made evolution capable of achieving its goals within only a few billion years? Is the evolutionary process fine-tuned?

A new kind of evolution is required to account for the Cambrian explosion

Shortly after the publication of Stephen Meyer’s scholarly work, Darwin’s Doubt, an article by Michael Lee, Julien Soubrier and Gregory D. Edgecombe, titled, Rates of Phenotypic and Genomic Evolution during the Cambrian Explosion (Current Biology, Volume 23, Issue 19, 1889-1895, 12 September 2013), which was widely hailed as a decisive refutation of the claims made in Dr. Meyer’s book. The article’s authors claimed that that evolution ran about five times faster during the Cambrian than its usual, gradual pace. That, they say, accounts for the Cambrian explosion. The key message: evolution’s “big bang” is fully compatible with Darwinian evolution. What the article overlooked was that Meyer’s central criticism of the Darwinian account had nothing to do with the time available; rather, it had to do with the type of evolution required to account for the changes that took place at that time – namely, the simultaneous appearance of about 30 different kinds of animal body plans, during the Cambrian period. (See here for a critical review of Lee et al.‘s article.)

But truth will out, one way or another. The scientific world might have ignored Meyer’s arguments, but they could not ignore the arguments made by two paleontologists who are widely acknowledged as leading authorities on the Cambrian explosion: Douglas Erwin and James Valentine. Over at Evolution News, Casey Luskin recently reviewed Erwin and Valentine’s latest ground-breaking book, The Cambrian Explosion: The Construction of Animal Biodiversity (Roberts and Company, 2013). A few relevant excerpts will serve to convey the gist of the book’s central argument, which is that nothing less than a radically new kind of evolution is required in order to understand what kicked off the Cambrian explosion:

One important concern has been whether the microevolutionary patterns commonly studied in modern organisms by evolutionary biologists are sufficient to understand and explain the events of the Cambrian or whether evolutionary theory needs to be expanded to include a more diverse set of macroevolutionary processes. We strongly hold to the latter position. (pp. 9-10)

Because the Cambrian explosion involved a significant number of separate lineages, achieving remarkable morphological breadth over millions of years, the Cambrian explosion can be considered an adaptive radiation only by stretching the term beyond all recognition… [T]he scale of morphological divergence is wholly incommensurate with that seen in other adaptive radiations. (p. 341)

The pathway from sponges to eumetazoans is the most enigmatic of any evolutionary transition in metazoans. This transition occurred during the Cryogenian, almost contemporaneously with the diversification of sponges. Many biologists concerned with metazoan phylogeny have been convinced that “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” and have therefore assumed that the planktonic larval stages of invertebrate phyla represented their ancestral forms. The benthic nature of sponges and the paraphyly of the major clades demonstrate that planktonic stages could not have been ancestral to eumetazoans. Further, there are no living intermediates between sponges and eumetazoans, with the possible exception of placotozoans, and no obvious hints from the fossil record. (p. 324)

To be sure, all pairs of crown phyla had common ancestors; as far as we know, however, none of those bilaterian LCAs [last common ancestors – VJT] had features that would cause them to be diagnosed as members of living phyla, although that could be the case in a few instances. In other words, the morphological distances — gaps — between body plans of crown phyla were present when body fossils first appeared during the explosion and have been with us ever since. The morphological disparity is so great between most phyla that the homologous reference points or landmarks required for quantitative studies of morphology are absent. (p. 340)
(Emphases mine – VJT.)

Summing up his review of Erwin and Valentine’s book for the journal Science, Christopher J. Lowe wrote:

The Ediacaran and Cambrian periods witnessed a phase of morphological innovation in animal evolution unrivaled in metazoan history, yet the proximate causes of this body plan revolution remain decidedly murky. The grand puzzle of the Cambrian explosion surely must rank as one of the most important outstanding mysteries in evolutionary biology.
(Christopher J. Lowe, “What Led to Metazoa’s Big Bang?”, Science, Vol. 340: 1170-1171 (June 7, 2013). (Emphasis added – VJT.))

This is the big story that high school and college students in most Western countries have been shielded from hearing about – until now. Hopefully the publication of a book by two acknowledged scientific authorities on the Cambrian explosion will break the taboo that still surrounds discussion of this topic, in science classrooms – and since the authors are not Intelligent Design proponents, there can be no legal objection to a free and frank discussion of the claims made in their book. The weaknesses of the Darwinian story of the Cambrian explosion need to be exposed, for all to see.

Origin of life scenarios are plagued with problems that refuse to go away

The origin of life is often bracketed to one side by Darwinists, who argue that it falls outside the scope of the theory of evolution. But methodological naturalism (which is currently regarded as the “official” methodology of science) claims to provide a naturalistic account of origins, and in order to do that, it needs to show that the origin of life is at least a tractable problem, even if no solution to the problem has yet been found.

Last month, science reporter Suzan Mazur interviewed Dr. Steve Benner, director of the Florida-based Westheimer Institute at the Foundation for Applied Molecular Evolution, in a report for the Huffington Post. Mazur asked Dr. Benner several questions about an upcoming conference he will be chairing in January, called the “Origins of Life / Gordon Research Conference.” In the course of the interview, Benner referred to four major hurdles confronting any theory for getting from simple chemicals to a Darwinian replicator, such as RNA. Dr. Benner admitted that the track record to date in overcoming these hurdles has been one of unmitigated failure:

We have failed in any continuous way to provide a recipe that gets from the simple molecules that we know were present on early Earth to RNA. There is a discontinuous model which has many pieces, many of which have experimental support, but we’re up against these three or four paradoxes, which you and I have talked about in the past. The first paradox is the tendency of organic matter to devolve and to give tar. If you can avoid that, you can start to try to assemble things that are not tarry, but then you encounter the water problem, which is related to the fact that every interesting bond that you want to make is unstable, thermodynamically, with respect to water. If you can solve that problem, you have the problem of entropy, that any of the building blocks are going to be present in a low concentration; therefore, to assemble a large number of those building blocks, you get a gene-like RNA — 100 nucleotides long — that fights entropy. And the fourth problem is that even if you can solve the entropy problem, you have a paradox that RNA enzymes, which are maybe catalytically active, are more likely to be active in the sense that destroys RNA rather than creates RNA.

How many people know about these problems? Very few. And in case you’re wondering why, Mazur highlights the main reason at the beginning of her article: lack of transparency, illustrated by the secrecy surrounding the conference Dr. Benner will be directing later this month:

There is an elaborate registration process, a fee of over $1,000 to attend, and approval by Chairman Steve Benner required. Plus, conference goers are asked not to reveal what went on there.

(UPDATE: I have been informed that the “gag rule” is not as sinister as it sounds: it protects research-in-progress, which is often presented by conferees, and normal scientific priority concerns.)

Ms. Mazur has done the public a great service in getting a leading member of the scientific community to open up about the problems facing origin-of-life scenarios. It is high time that people realized the magnitude of the problem, and the publication of a revealing interview such as this one in the pages of The Huffington Post marks a major milestone.

Speculative new proposals, such as dynamic kinetic stability, fail to quantify, and therefore don’t deserve to be called science

During her interview with Dr. Benner, Suzan Mazur also referred to a recent paper by Robert Pascal et al., titled, Towards an evolutionary theory of the origin of life based on kinetics and thermodynamics (Open Biology, November 2013, doi: 10.1098/rsob.130156). After exposing the inadequacies of currently accepted models of the origin of life, the authors go on to propose a model of their own, in which the origin of life may have proceeded stepwise through states of partial “aliveness.” According to the authors, a rare kind of chemical stability, known as dynamic kinetic stability, was what permitted the development of entities that were capable of self-reproduction, and whose descendants gradually accumulated novel biological functions, over the course of geological time. However, the authors freely acknowledge what they refer to as “the difficulty in quantifying dynamic kinetic stability”:

Starting from the axiomatic principle that a transition to life is not physically and statistically impossible, and choosing a temperature compatible with the presence of liquid water, we end in a semi-quantitative representation consistent with life as we know it, which is based on covalent bonds and largely dependent, directly or indirectly, on visible light from the Sun (Scheme 5). This representation of the origin of life process has then the capability of explaining the living world in a consistent way. There has been a lively discussion on the opposition of Monod’s views considered above and de Duve’s ‘cosmic imperative’ [58]. Contrary to deterministic views, the ideas developed here do not allow any assessment of the level of probability of life and its emergence, nor any prediction of its evolutionary path. Rather they support the idea that spontaneous self-organization of systems manifesting many of the features of living beings is a reasonable possibility in the physical world, provided that several conditions are met.

To the untutored layperson, the authors’ suggested mechanism for the origin of life sounds plausible. And that’s precisely what’s wrong with it. The skeptical philosopher Dr. Stephen Law recently published a book about how we should form our beliefs, in which he argued that “any belief, no matter how ludicrous, can be made to be consistent with the available evidence, given a little patience and ingenuity.” Dr. Law’s point was that mere plausibility isn’t enough to make a theory true; any theory can be made to sound plausible. The only theories which are truly worthy of our belief are those which are probable, as opposed to merely plausible. And what makes a theory probable, according to Law, is the discovery of confirming evidence, which he defined as evidence such that the probability of finding it would be low, if the theory were false.

The big problem I have with the paper, Towards an evolutionary theory of the origin of life based on kinetics and thermodynamics by Pascal et al., is that it explicitly jettisons Law’s probability requirement, and lowers the evidential bar: a theory for the origin of life is now deemed adequate, so long as it is plausible. The authors contend that since it is impossible to calculate the probabilities of the emergence of life or its subsequent evolution along the pathway leading to the life-forms we observe on Earth today, it is enough to show that the evolution of life on Earth is “a reasonable possibility in the physical world” and that “a transition to life is not physically and statistically impossible.” In other words, the authors are defining plausibility, rather than probability, as the epistemic yardstick by which the theory of evolution ought to be judged. This, I have to say, is not science. And that in turn entails that modern theories of evolution are not scientific theories either, since they do not even attempt to quantify the time it should take for complex structures to evolve, which means that they should not be accorded the respect given to scientific theories.

The authors’ cavalier attitude to probability is especially problematic, in the light of recent research by Dr. Douglas Axe and Dr. Ann Gauger (see here and here), which suggests that even a relatively trivial change in the enzymatic function of a single protein is extremely unlikely to occur, and that Darwin’s mechanism would require a trillion trillion years – about 100 trillion times longer than the age of the universe – to bring it about. Axe and Gauger explain the significance of their research in highly accessible layperson’s language and respond to to their critics here, here and here.

Calculating the probabilities: Eugene Koonin admits that the origin of life requires a multiverse

The best way of getting around the improbability of life evolving on Earth is to invoke the multiverse. Dr. Eugene V. Koonin is a Senior Investigator at the National Center for Biotechnology Information, which is part of the National Library of Medicine, a branch of the National Institutes of Health, in Bethesda, Maryland, USA. Dr. Koonin is also a recognized authority in the field of evolutionary and computational biology. Recently, he authored a book, titled, The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution (Upper Saddle River: FT Press, 2011, ISBN 978-0-13-262317-9). I think we can fairly assume that when it comes to origin-of-life scenarios, he knows what he’s talking about.

In Appendix B of his book, The Logic of Chance, Dr. Koonin argues that the origin of life is such a remarkable event that we need to postulate a multiverse, containing a very large (and perhaps infinite) number of universes, in order to explain the emergence of life on Earth.

The reason why Dr. Koonin believes we need to postulate a multiverse in order to solve the riddle of the origin of life on Earth is that all life is dependent on replication and translation systems which are fiendishly complex. As Koonin puts it:

The origin of the translation system is, arguably, the central and the hardest problem in the study of the origin of life, and one of the hardest in all evolutionary biology. The problem has a clear catch-22 aspect: high translation fidelity hardly can be achieved without a complex, highly evolved set of RNAs and proteins but an elaborate protein machinery could not evolve without an accurate translation system.

Dr. Koonin claims that the emergence of even a basic replication-translation system on the primordial Earth is such an astronomically unlikely event that we would need to postulate a vast number of universes, in which all possible scenarios are played out, in order to make its emergence likely.

To justify this claim, Dr. Koonin provides what he calls “a rough, toy calculation of the upper bound of the probability of the emergence of a coupled replication-translation system in an O-region.” (That’s an observable universe, such as the one we live in.) The calculations on pages 434-435 in Appendix B of Dr. Koonin’s book, The Logic of Chance, are adapted from his peer-reviewed article, The Cosmological Model of Eternal Inflation and the Transition from Chance to Biological Evolution in the History of Life, Biology Direct 2 (2007): 15, doi:10.1186/1745-6150-2-15. As readers can verify for themselves, the wording is virtually identical in the 2007 article. I shall reproduce the relevant passage below (bold emphases are mine – VJT):

Probabilities of the emergence, by chance, of different versions of the breakthrough system in an O-region: a back-of-the-envelope calculation of the upper bounds

…A ribozyme replicase consisting of ~100 nucleotides is conceivable, so, in principle, spontaneous origin of such an entity in a finite universe consisting of a single O-region cannot be ruled out in this toy model (again, the rate of RNA synthesis considered here is a deliberate, gross over-estimate).

The requirements for the emergence of a primitive, coupled replication-translation system, which is considered a candidate for the breakthrough stage in this paper, are much greater. At a minimum, spontaneous formation of the following is required:

– Two rRNAs with a total size of at least 1000 nucleotides

– Approximately 10 primitive adaptors of about 30 nucleotides each, for a total of approximately 300 nucleotides

– At least one RNA encoding a replicase, about 500 nucleotides (low bound)is required. Under the notation used here, n = 1800, resulting in E <10-1018.

In other words, even in this toy model that assumes a deliberately inflated rate of RNA production, the probability that a coupled translation-replication emerges by chance in a single O-region is P < 10-1018. Obviously, this version of the breakthrough stage can be considered only in the context of a universe with an infinite (or, at the very least, extremely vast) number of O-regions.

The model considered here is not supposed to be realistic by any account. It only serves to illustrate the difference in the demands on chance for the origin of different versions of the breakthrough system and, hence, the connections between these versions and different cosmological models of the universe.

Dr. Koonin’s 2007 paper, which contained the above calculations, passed a panel of four reviewers, including one from Harvard University, who wrote:

In this work, Eugene Koonin estimates the probability of arriving at a system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution and comes to a cosmologically small number… He cites recent work in cosmology that highlights the vastness of the universe, where any series of events is necessarily played out an infinite number of times. This so-called “many-worlds in one” model essentially reconceives any chance event as a necessary one, where its (absolute) abundance is proportional to its chance of occurring.

The context of this article is framed by the current lack of a complete and plausible scenario for the origin of life. Koonin specifically addresses the front-runner model, that of the RNA-world, where self-replicating RNA molecules precede a translation system. He notes that in addition to the difficulties involved in achieving such a system is the paradox of attaining a translation system through Darwinian selection. That this is indeed a bona-fide paradox is appreciated by the fact that, without a shortage [of] effort, a plausible scenario for translation evolution has not been proposed to date. There have been other models for the origin of life, including the ground-breaking Lipid-world model advanced by Segrè, Lancet and colleagues (reviewed in EMBO Reports (2000), 1(3), 217–222), but despite much ingenuity and effort, it is fair to say that all origin of life models suffer from astoundingly low probabilities of actually occurring

…[F]uture work may show that starting from just a simple assembly of molecules, non-anthropic principles can account for each step along the rise to the threshold of Darwinian evolution. Based upon the new perspective afforded to us by Koonin this now appears unlikely. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

I am very pleased to see that the argument presented in Koonin’s peer-reviewed paper was republished in his recent book, The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution (Upper Saddle River: FT Press, 2011, ISBN 978-0-13-262317-9). It is encouraging to see that the experts within the field of origin-of-life studies are finally starting to speak the truth in a public forum: the origin of life on Earth, by any naturalistic scenario, must have been an astronomically improbable event. Hopefully, it won’t be too long before high school and college students get to hear about this, as well.

Why the multiverse won’t help explain the origin of life

But for all its ingenuity, Dr. Koonin’s multiverse won’t work. The multiverse hypothesis is plagued by two problems: first, it merely shifts the fine-tuning problem up one level, as a multiverse capable of generating any life-supporting universes at all would still need to be fine-tuned; and second, even the multiverse hypothesis implies that a sizable proportion of universes (including perhaps our own) were intelligently designed. Once again, the articles arguing for these conclusions are written by highly respected authorities in the field.

Dr. Robin Collins is a Professor of Philosophy and chair of the Department of Philosophy at Messiah College in Grantham, Pennsylvania. Dr. Collins also spent two years in a Ph.D. program in Physics at the University of Texas at Austin before transferring to the University of Notre Dame where he received a Ph.D. in philosophy in 1993. In an influential essay entitled, The Teleological Argument: An Exploration of the Fine-Tuning of the Universe (in The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, edited by William Lane Craig and J. P. Moreland, 2009, Blackwell Publishing Ltd.), Dr. Robin Collins offers a scientific explanation of why even a “multiverse-generator” would still fail to eliminate the need for fine-tuning:

[A]s a test case, consider the inflationary type multiverse generator. In order for it to explain the fine-tuning of the constants, it must hypothesize one or more “mechanisms” for laws that will do the following [four] things: (i) cause the expansion of a small region of space into a very large region; (ii) generate the very large amount of mass-energy needed for that region to contain matter instead of merely empty space; (iii) convert the mass-energy of inflated space to the sort of mass-energy we find in our universe; and (iv) cause sufficient variations among the constants of physics to explain their fine-tuning.

[T]o achieve (i)–(ii), we effectively have a sort of “conspiracy” between at least two different factors: the inflaton field that gives empty space a positive energy density, and Einstein’s equation… of General Relativity, which dictates that space expand at an enormous rate in the presence of a large near-homogenous positive energy density… Without either factor, there would neither be regions of space that inflate nor would those regions have the mass-energy necessary for a universe to exist.

In addition to the four factors listed, the fundamental physical laws underlying a multiverse generator – whether of the inflationary type or some other – must be just right in order for it to produce life-permitting universes, instead of merely dead universes. Specifically, these fundamental laws must be such as to allow the conversion of the mass-energy into material forms that allow for the sort of stable complexity needed for complex intelligent life…

In sum, even if an inflationary-superstring multiverse generator exists, it must have just the right combination of laws and fields for the production of life-permitting universes: if one of the components were missing or different, such as Einstein’s equation or the Pauli Exclusion Principle, it is unlikely that any life-permitting universes could be produced. Consequently, at most, this highly speculative scenario would explain the fine-tuning of the constants of physics, but at the cost of postulating additional fine-tuning of the laws of nature.

There’s another problem with the multiverse hypothesis, too. Physicist Paul Davies has argued that the multiverse hypothesis is just as “theological” as the hypothesis that there is a God, since it implies the existence of intelligently designed universes:

Among the myriad universes similar to ours will be some in which technological civilizations advance to the point of being able to simulate consciousness. Eventually, entire virtual worlds will be created inside computers, their conscious inhabitants unaware that they are the simulated products of somebody else’s technology. For every original world, there will be a stupendous number of available virtual worlds – some of which would even include machines simulating virtual worlds of their own, and so on ad infinitum.

Taking the multiverse theory at face value, therefore, means accepting that virtual worlds are more numerous than “real” ones. There is no reason to expect our world – the one in which you are reading this right now – to be real as opposed to a simulation. And the simulated inhabitants of a virtual world stand in the same relationship to the simulating system as human beings stand in relation to the traditional Creator.

Far from doing away with a transcendent Creator, the multiverse theory actually injects that very concept at almost every level of its logical structure. Gods and worlds, creators and creatures, lie embedded in each other, forming an infinite regress in unbounded space.

— Paul Davies, A Brief History of the Multiverse, New York Times, 12 April 2003.

Both Collins’ and Davies’ articles, which expose the flaws in appealing to the multiverse hypothesis as an alternative to theism, are freely available at Websites which make no attempt to push a theistic worldview: Collins’ paper is available at commonsenseatheism.com/, for instance. As such, these sites are above suspicion, and teachers wishing to foster critical thinking skills in their students should not hesitate to make use of the articles they contain, which call into question not only the Darwinian theory of evolution, but also the reigning naturalistic worldview.

Let us hope, then, that 2014 brings further good tidings in the fight against ignorance and scientific “groupthink.”

Comments
This is a non-sequitur.
I fail to see how it is a non-sequitur. But at least we have an admission on the origin of the universe. Now, we need an admission on OOL and evolution. Have you ever made any? Also evolution is a mufti-faceted topic so there should be admissions on the various aspects of it. Or are they all "I don’t know." But please point out the changes on the subject. I listed a quote by you and made comments on it. How is that a change of subject. I promise to answer any question you have without changing the subject.jerry
January 3, 2014
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Gpuccio #29  
Let’s say life originated with some form of prokaryote, with the basic systems for DNA duplication, transcription and translation well ready to work. IOWs, let’s say that LUCA was also the FUCA. And let’s say that LUCA came into being for the rather sudden assemblage of inorganic matter into a prokaryote cell, as we could witness in a lab, if only we were able to design a cell in a lab. That is an hypothesis that has some detail, that is fully compatible with ID and very scarcely compatible with any other non design hypothesis.
That is the beginnings of a hypothesis. It skips the difficult bit by proposing there was a “rather sudden assemblage of inorganic matter into a prokaryote cell”. Do you seriously think scientists should investigate this hypothesis? It certainly makes science a lot easier if you can answer the difficult bits by proposing "there was a sudden assemblage"
And, in principle, those details can be, sometime, verified, as our understanding of natural history deepens.
How could these details be verified? Mark Frank
January 3, 2014
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#24 Jerry
I have never seen Mark Frank honestly discuss his position on the universe, life or evolution. It is always criticism. So to claim that we change the subject is absurd.
This is a non-sequitur. When asked to give any detail about their hypotheses IDists typically change the subject independent of whatever I believe or discuss – Gpuccio is an honourable exception. If you want to know my position on fundamental things like the origin of the universe it is largely “I don’t know”.Mark Frank
January 3, 2014
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Jeff M #23
I think the origin of life is just not one of those things that you can investigate scientifically. Mark Frank asks “where is the detail?” when it comes to supernatural explainations. I ask “where is the evidence?” when it comes to the naturalistic explainations. It is concievable that someday somewhere someone may come up with a detailed model of how life could have arisen by naturalistic processes. That’s great, however now you are only half way there. You need to test the model, which I don’t think is possible in principle. How are you going to test chemical reactions that took place 4 billion years ago? Yet, if this ever happens the scientific establishment will hold it up as scientific proof that life appeared naturalistically. Abiogenesis is more of a branch of philosophy than science.
You are right that it is a problem to come up with a definitive proof of what happened billions of years ago.  But it is not impossible. Events have consequences and leave traces and they conform to laws of physics and chemistry. Maybe we will never know the truth but it does not follow that (a) we should stop trying  (b) the explanation is in fact supernatural (c) it is somehow dishonest to seek natural explanations.Mark Frank
January 3, 2014
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Thanks vjtorley our first unit for the semester is population genetics and evolution. Can't wait here the darwin bull cr*p that comes out of my teachers mouth. Our text books are from 2004 so everything is kind of out dated. The authors are ken miller and levine.Jaceli123
January 3, 2014
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OMG! Lizzie is soooo clueless that she thinks GAs model darwinian evolution! That is perhaps the most ignorant thing ever. So if a designer designs a GA to accomplish something, and it does, it did NOT accomplish it by design. That the GA accomplished something was totally accidental- according to Lizzie. BTW shew also thinks that AVIDA is a GA- LoL!Joe
January 3, 2014
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Still no rabbits in the Cambrian, though, so why start questioning Evolution?lifepsy
January 3, 2014
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Mark: Another point. I suppose you are slightly underestimating the consciousness of "evolution is a fact" and OOL explanations are a fact" in our culture, both academic and not. Scientists may retain some caution when they write papers (but they often don't even do that), but the darwinian propaganda is strong everywhere. Most people receive the dogma that both OOL and evolution of species have very strong scientific explanations in the darwinian context. Any suggestion of the contrary is strongly regarded as heretic at best. These are simple facts. Our interlocutors, including you, are rather willing, here, to admit, here, that "we don't know this", or "we don't know that", but what is the music in the general world, or, just to mention it, at TSZ, or ATBC? You are a very reasonable opponent, and you yourself admit that you are "not sufficiently expert in evolution to dispute the issue". And you would probably admit that no OOL theory is even near to some credible explanation. And yet, you do come here and in other places essentially to antagonize (although in a very civil way) ID. Well, I come here (and sometimes in other places) to defend ID because I do believe that it is a good theory, that it can explain biological realities better than any other paradigm, and that it opens important avenues to intelligent research. And I believe that I am "sufficiently expert" to believe that way. I think both our positions are correct, but we can maybe reflect a moment on their differences, because that tells much about the intellectual debate that is at stake.gpuccio
January 3, 2014
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Random, wrt darwinian evolution, means chance/ happenstance/ accidental.And natural selection is blind and without purpose. I would love to see someone from TSZ but together a testable hypothesis using their proposed mechanism of accumulations of genetic accidents. I would really love to see how they determined all genetic change is accidental. The point being that without ID they wouldn't have anything to talk about. And, as it stands, all they can do is knock down caricatures of ID...Joe
January 3, 2014
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Mark, Excuse me if I intrude. I would like to suggest an hypothesis which may have some detail. Let's say life originated with some form of prokaryote, with the basic systems for DNA duplication, transcription and translation well ready to work. IOWs, let's say that LUCA was also the FUCA. And let's say that LUCA came into being for the rather sudden assemblage of inorganic matter into a prokaryote cell, as we could witness in a lab, if only we were able to design a cell in a lab. That is an hypothesis that has some detail, that is fully compatible with ID and very scarcely compatible with any other non design hypothesis. And, in principle, those details can be, sometime, verified, as our understanding of natural history deepens. Just a suggestion.gpuccio
January 3, 2014
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LoL! Lizzie took a shot at this OP but she doesn't even grasp what Darwininan evolution entails.Joe
January 3, 2014
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MF:
Whenever any one wants to demand anything of a supernatural explanation –
ID doesn't require the supernatural. You are just confused.Joe
January 3, 2014
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MF:
The Miller-Urey experiment is held up as evidence for the original of life in a primordial soup in the sense that is shows how amino acids might be created.
That's like saying since mother nature can produce stones, big stones, it produced Stonehenge. And BTW Mark, if you can't say anything about the OoL then you can't say anything about evolution as the two are directly linked. If the OoL = design then we would infer living organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design. It is only if life was an accident, ie a happenstance occurreence would we infer life evolved via accumulations of genetic accidents. And it is very telling that evos refuse to grasp that simple fact...Joe
January 3, 2014
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Mr Frank, and exactly how is your 'random' postulate differentiated from a 'supernatural' explanation? Please be specific. Basically, if the word random were left in this fuzzy, undefined, state one could very well argue as Theistic Evolutionists argue, and as even Alvin Plantinga himself has argued at the 8:15 minute mark of this following video,, How can an Immaterial God Interact with the Physical Universe? (Alvin Plantinga) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kfzD3ofUb4 ,,, that each random event that occurs in the universe could be considered a ‘miracle’ of God. So please Mr. Frank how do you differentiate your 'random' postulate from a supernatural explanation? I'm pretty sure a few philosophers of science would be very interested in your successful resolution of the matter!bornagain77
January 3, 2014
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Mark Frank's argument against ID has been for years that there is no evidence that some intelligent being ever existed before humans. Therefore, no ID. ID uses the existence of life and the universe to postulate that there must have been an intelligent being because no naturalistic process has the power to cause life and the organization we see in the universe. Taking the ID position a step further, adherents will often say that if a being did create the universe and life, this being has to be of immense intelligence. And to suppose we can use our human faculties to understand such a being would be folly. So whose position is more internally logical or non-contradictory? I happen to believe Mark Frank's position is less plausible but as we know from our view of the world, people will do all sorts of things to prevent a discussion of these positions from taking place. I have never seen Mark Frank honestly discuss his position on the universe, life or evolution. It is always criticism. So to claim that we change the subject is absurd.jerry
January 3, 2014
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I think the origin of life is just not one of those things that you can investigate scientifically. Mark Frank asks "where is the detail?" when it comes to supernatural explainations. I ask "where is the evidence?" when it comes to the naturalistic explainations. It is concievable that someday somewhere someone may come up with a detailed model of how life could have arisen by naturalistic processes. That's great, however now you are only half way there. You need to test the model, which I don't think is possible in principle. How are you going to test chemical reactions that took place 4 billion years ago? Yet, if this ever happens the scientific establishment will hold it up as scientific proof that life appeared naturalistically. Abiogenesis is more of a branch of philosophy than science.Jeff M
January 3, 2014
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BA77 Whenever any one wants to demand anything of a supernatural explanation - even the broadest outlines - the usual reaction is to change the subject to criticising various natural explanations as you did.Mark Frank
January 3, 2014
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Of course it falls outside the theory of evolution. Evolution requires a system of heritable traits with random variation
A couple of things wrong here. First, nearly every theory I have seen for a naturalistic OOL requires self replicating molecules which by definition is a form of heritability. Why is this essential? So some form of selection can take place. Second, there are other theories that do not require random variation to explain changes in life forms that somehow are necessary for macro changes to organisms to occur.jerry
January 3, 2014
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Mr Frank asks: "Where’s even the beginnings of the detail?,,, When? How? What experiments or observations can a scientist make to evaluate this hypothesis?" Mr Frank, Might we ask the same detail of your 'random' postulate at the base of your preferred naturalistic theory for the origin of life??? Nobel Prize-Winning Physicist Wolfgang Pauli on the Empirical Problems with Neo-Darwinism – Casey Luskin – February 27, 2012 Excerpt: While they (Darwinian Biologists) pretend to stay in this way completely ‘scientific’ and ‘rational,’ they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word ‘chance’, not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word ‘miracle.’” Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/nobel_prize-win056771.html Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness – Talbott – Fall 2011 Excerpt: In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, “Here something random occurs.” This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomness ,, Mr Frank, can you be a little more explicit here?bornagain77
January 3, 2014
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VJ Please excuse me if I stick to OOL. I am not sufficiently expert in evolution to dispute the issue. The Miller-Urey experiment is held up as evidence for the original of life in a primordial soup in the sense that is shows how amino acids might be created. It is not held up as proof nor is it held up as giving anything like a complete account of OOL. I believe the phrase is "building blocks of life". I cannot think of any scientist or scientific publication which pretends that this is any more than one hypothesis about one stage in OOL. Of course there is an enormous leap from there to fully fledged bacteria. Furthermore there is no shortage of critical assessment of the Miller-Urey experiment from scientists. They are able to do this because it proposes a mechanism for how life originated. What is your "hypothesis": A supernatural being produced the first living cell, first sentient being and first sapient being. (Your other hypotheses are about OOL) Where's even the beginnings of the detail? What being? When? How? What experiments or observations can a scientist make to evaluate this hypothesis?Mark Frank
January 3, 2014
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Dr.Vjt, Scientists supporting YEC should also come clean and explain their real motive in supporting alternate cosmology hypothesis (electric universe, plasma cosmology, tired light, steady state etc.) which seek to confuse the common man - given the fact that the common man is already confused with an array of theories from main stream physicist :-)selvaRajan
January 3, 2014
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Hi Mark Frank, Thank you for your posts (and thank you, Sal, for your responses). A couple of quick points. 1. You say scientists don't pretend they have the answer to the OOL. When I was in high school, the Miller-Urey experiment was held up as evidence for the origin of life in a primordial soup. They didn't tell us that the amino acids synthesized in that experiment have only about 10 atoms, while the smallest independently existing bacterium has over 100 billion. We heard about the scarcity of pre-Cambrian fossils, but we were told that it was because they were soft-bodied back then, which is why they didn't fossilize well. Haeckel's embryo photos were cited as strong evidence for evolution. I'd say there was a lack of honesty. 2. Re a good rival supernatural hypothesis, how about the following? (a) A supernatural being produced the first living cell, first sentient being and first sapient being. (b) A supernatural being produced each and every species, where a "species" is defined by a taxon's possession of several hundred proteins distinguishing it. (c) A supernatural being produced each and every family, order, class and phylum of living thing, but species and genera evolved naturally.vjtorley
January 3, 2014
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Sal
As if assessing things as scientists is more important than assessing it as human beings who may have a stake in the matter of design. What if the Origin of Life is not repeatable even in principle. You’ll be stuck with something that is true, but not accessible to science.
The OP was about how scientists should “come clean” which implies they are hiding something. What are they expected to do about the OOL? There is no proof that the OOL cannot be investigated scientifically as there is in the case of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. What can they can do except try to find explanations (or possibly proofs that it is inaccessible). As long as they don’t pretend they have the answer – and in the case of OOL they don’t – this doesn’t amount to hiding anything. What more can they do? Having said that, I understood VJ's case to be different. I read it that he is saying that science should be extended to include supernatural explanations. If supernatural explanations are to be included in science then there has to be some way of assessing them. That was why I asked for the detail of the supernatural hypothesis for OOL so it could be assessed.>Mark Frank
January 3, 2014
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VJ, A scientist did come clean once when he said:
In science's pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics. Jerry Coyne
Coyne at the time was expressing embarrassment that evolutionary psychologists Thornhill and Palmer said that rape is a selectively beneficial trait in humanss. Despite this one time moment of honesty, Coyne acts as Neo-Darwinism is as important to science as electromagnetism.scordova
January 3, 2014
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This’ll prove to be vastly profitable for America in standing its ground in biology.
No it will not. Biological understanding is denigrated because of evolutionary theories. I asked the question of evolutionists, what scientific and technological benefit is there if evolution is true. There was not one credible response: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/if-darwinism-were-true-what-is-there-to-gain/ If evolutionism hinders the numbers of individuals studying science because individuals (like say Richard Sternberg, Caroline Crocker, Perceval Davis, Dean Kenyon, etc.) question Darwin, this will be bad for science. These were PhD scientists with good track records that were pummeled into the ground because they dared to question Darwinism. That may only be the tip of the iceberg in terms of how much scientific talent is thrown away because of insistence on Darwinism because we have no record of the many aspiring science students were discouraged by hostile pro-Darwin faculty. I recall a creationist grad marine biologist telling me her first day of class the prof said if you believe in the Bible you can't understand genetics. Evolutionism is harming science, not helping it.scordova
January 3, 2014
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As to Darwinists/Atheists who are open enough to consider the fact that ID 'may' be science, I ask you 'are you open enough to considered the fact that Darwinism may not be science?' “On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” (Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003) “For many years I thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have a proof that Darwinian evolution works.” Gregory Chaitin – Proving Darwin 2012 – Highly Respected Mathematician “It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. “nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific” – Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, quote as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture Oxford University Seeks Mathemagician — May 5th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: Grand theories in physics are usually expressed in mathematics. Newton’s mechanics and Einstein’s theory of special relativity are essentially equations. Words are needed only to interpret the terms. Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection has obstinately remained in words since 1859. … http://biologicinstitute.org/2011/05/05/oxford-university-seeks-mathemagician/ Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details – Dr. V. J. Torley – February 27, 2013 Excerpt: After all, mathematics, scientific laws and observed processes are supposed to form the basis of all scientific explanation. If none of these provides support for Darwinian macroevolution, then why on earth should we accept it? Indeed, why does macroevolution belong in the province of science at all, if its scientific basis cannot be demonstrated? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/macroevolution-microevolution-and-chemistry-the-devil-is-in-the-details/ In fact, although Darwinism has no rigid mathematical demarcation criteria so a to demarcate it as a ‘hard’ science, in so far as math can be applied to Darwinian presuppositions through population genetics, math does falsify Darwinian claims: Waiting Longer for Two Mutations – Michael J. Behe Excerpt: Citing malaria literature sources (White 2004) I had noted that the de novo appearance of chloroquine resistance in Plasmodium falciparum was an event of probability of 1 in 10^20. I then wrote that ‘for humans to achieve a mutation like this by chance, we would have to wait 100 million times 10 million years’ (1 quadrillion years)(Behe 2007) (because that is the extrapolated time that it would take to produce 10^20 humans). Durrett and Schmidt (2008, p. 1507) retort that my number ‘is 5 million times larger than the calculation we have just given’ using their model (which nonetheless “using their model” gives a prohibitively long waiting time of 216 million years). Their criticism compares apples to oranges. My figure of 10^20 is an empirical statistic from the literature; it is not, as their calculation is, a theoretical estimate from a population genetics model. http://www.discovery.org/a/9461 (Also see Axe and Gauger’s in BioComplexity) Whereas nobody can seem to come up with a rigid demarcation criteria for Darwinism, Intelligent Design (ID) does not suffer from such a lack of mathematical rigor: Evolutionary Informatics Lab – Main Publications http://evoinfo.org/publications/ ,, the empirical falsification criteria of ID is much easier to understand than the math is, and is as such: “Orr maintains that the theory of intelligent design is not falsifiable. He’s wrong. To falsify design theory a scientist need only experimentally demonstrate that a bacterial flagellum, or any other comparably complex system, could arise by natural selection. If that happened I would conclude that neither flagella nor any system of similar or lesser complexity had to have been designed. In short, biochemical design would be neatly disproved.” - Dr Behe in 1997 Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Well, do neo-Darwinists have evidence of even one molecular machine arising by Darwinian processes?,,, I have yet to see even a single novel protein arise by purely neo-Darwinian processes much less a entire molecular machine! Without such a demonstration and still their dogmatic insistence that Darwinism is true, then as far as I can tell, the actual demarcation threshold for believing neo-Darwinism is true is this: Darwinism Not Proved Impossible Therefore Its True – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10285716/ How Darwinists React to Improbability Arguments (Dumb and Dumber – You mean there’s a chance!?!) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9IgLueodZA Music and Verse: Nine Inch Nails – Everyday Is Exactly The Same – music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEHHE64xpfY 2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. ,, I hope neo-Darwinists can help us to designate a more rigid threshold for neo-Darwinism, since as far as I can tell, without a rigid demarcation criteria, neo-Darwinism is in actuality the pseudo-science they accuse Intelligent Design of being!bornagain77
January 3, 2014
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The American public did look to be a basket-case comparable to Muslim dominated countries when it came to the widespread acceptance of the Theory of Evolution. Fortunately for America the next generation looks to be reversing that trend of ignorance and catching up to the rest of the developed world. This'll prove to be vastly profitable for America in standing its ground in biology. The origin of life consists of a number of hypotheses. The study of these is very well documented and transparent. Most require a good understanding of chemistry though to read. How else are scientists supposed to come clean ? Sure there will be papers behind paywalls but that applies to all science and technology fields today. As a field of study, Abiogenesis is a hard problem by its very nature of reconstructing one of Earth's oldest historical events with such an accuracy that the event is repeatable and reproducible enough to be deemed science. Detractors of the Theory of Evolution that support their argument by throwing rhetoric about abiogenesis around seem to have a rose-tinted view of the world in which solutions to problems just pop into existence like magic. Scientific discoveries do not work that way.Lincoln Phipps
January 3, 2014
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but I asked for details of this hypothesis about the origin of life so we can assess it now as scientists;
As if assessing things as scientists is more important than assessing it as human beings who may have a stake in the matter of design. What if the Origin of Life is not repeatable even in principle. You'll be stuck with something that is true, but not accessible to science. I have a few coins on my table. They'll be randomly scrambled when I put them in my pocket. We'll never be able to prove definitively what orientation they were in (heads or tails) 1 million years form now, but that doesn't detract from the fact I see one of them as heads. Scientifically, that can never be proven by scientists a thousand years from now, but it doesn't make the claim any less true. The problem is that the most important truths of the physical universe may not be accessible to science. That's not a theological claim, but a claim based on the rules of science it self: 1. Heisenberg uncertainty 2. erasure of Information based on noise 3. inability to retain all historical information etc. So, by your standard, you might preclude knowing something true because of the inability to repeat the origin of life. Apparently, any argument from theoretical expectation won't convince you that a supernatural act is the best explanation. I respect that, but on the other hand, let's not pretend the best and most fundamental truths about the physical universe are necessarily accessible to science. The most important data points may have been erased, and all we are left with is trying to perceive the past via inferences. So lack of repeatability is no argument against supernatural events, and supernatural events, as a matter of principle aren't repeatable at the whims of a scientist. I think the best inference is a supernatural cause because it is coherent. Multiverses, chemical evolution, Darwinian evolution are incoherent explanations. Does physics suggest an Almighty Designer? If we permit some fringe speculaitons, the answer is yes. See: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-quantum-enigma-of-consciousness-and-the-identity-of-the-designer/ So we have a presumptive Designer possible, and we have evidence conforming to a design. On circumstantial grounds I find it believable. Darwinian evolution, mindless OOL on the other hand I find as a believable as square circles in Euclidean geometry. Thus, I think VJ Torley's idea is a superior explanation. Whether you want to call it science or not, I don't care, because if VJ is right, in the scheme of things whether supernaturalism is scientific or not, the question would be a moot one.scordova
January 3, 2014
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Sal
I’ll give you a testable hypothesis. One day, you’ll meet your Creator on judgment day. If that happens, I suppose you won’t be in a position to be making demands…
If that happens it will be good news – but I asked for details of this hypothesis about the origin of life so we can assess it now as scientists; just as the numerous papers VJ quotes have assessed other hypotheses.
You might complain that it would be helpful to have more data in hand and if you saw God today, you’ll believe. I respect that, but there’s an old saying, “play the hand you’ve been dealt.” If you want to play the hand by saying you don’t believe in Design because you’ve not been dealt a hand that is sufficiently convincing, then I respect that, but as I’ve pointed out, if you are right, the payoff is zero, but if you’re wrong, …..
Pascal’s wager! It is a fallacy. I don’t know the consequences if I am wrong. Maybe the creator gives lots of marks for intellectual honesty – even if it is misplaced – and I would get severely marked down for pretending to believe in something I didn’t believe in.Mark Frank
January 3, 2014
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Scientists would come clean if the public really wanted to hear that life is designed. I'm not sure the heart of man really longs for the truth. You saw for yourself the unease and reaction to very simple question about 500 coins being heads.
VJTorley, Still, there are heartening signs that the wall of ignorance supporting the dam of evolutionary orthodoxy is about to collapse.
It's heartening for those of us willing to consider Design, but not so heartening given the willful blindness out there. The irony is at no other time in perhaps the last 1000 years is the Design argument more brutally obvious than today, but at the same time the willingness to love darkness is also proportionally great. If I may offer a speculation, the hardness of men's hearts, just like Pharoah in the time of Moses is also by design. The circumstantial evidence is there, but people won't see it if they are determined to close their eyes. Even up to the last year I was willing to give the critics some slack, but then when I saw all the debate surrounding the simple question of 500 coins, the unwillingness to grant even an ounce of charitable reading, blind bias was brutally obvious. If critics gave even one ounce of the skepticism regarding the 500-coin illustration to evolutionary and OOL theories, they'd have little reason to be assenting to them. It seems society will fracture and polarize. If I could expatriate, I would, but unfortunately, as Jesus said, the wheat and tares must grow together until judgment day. So I'm stuck living in a society of Darwinists.
Mark Frank: Give us the details we will see if that one holds up.
I'll give you a testable hypothesis. One day, you'll meet your Creator on judgment day. If that happens, I suppose you won't be in a position to be making demands... You might complain that it would be helpful to have more data in hand and if you saw God today, you'll believe. I respect that, but there's an old saying, "play the hand you've been dealt." If you want to play the hand by saying you don't believe in Design because you've not been dealt a hand that is sufficiently convincing, then I respect that, but as I've pointed out, if you are right, the payoff is zero, but if you're wrong, .....scordova
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