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Jerad’s DDS Causes Him to Succumb to “Miller’s Mendacity” and Other Errors

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Part 1:  Jerad’s DDS (“Darwinist Derangement Syndrome”)

Sometimes one just has to stop, gape and stare at the things Darwinists say.  

Consider Jerad’s response to Sal’s 500 coin flip post.  He says:  “If I got 500 heads in a row I’d be very surprised and suspicious. I might even get the coin checked. But it could happen.”  Later he says that if asked about 500 heads in a row he would respond:  “I would NOT say it was ‘inconsistent with fair coins.’”  Then this:  “All we are saying is that any particular sequence is equally unlikely and that 500 heads is just one of those particular sequences.” 

No Jerad.  You are wrong. Stunningly, glaringly, gobsmackingly wrong, and it beggars belief that someone would say these things.  The probability of getting 500 heads in a row is (1/2)^500.  This is a probability far far beyond the universal probability bound.  Let me put it this way:  If every atom in the universe had been flipping a coin every second for the last 14.5 billion years, we would not expect to see this sequence even once. 

But, insists Jerad, it could happen.  Jerad’s statement is true only in the trivial sense that flipping 500 heads in a row is not physically or logically impossible.  Nevertheless, the probability of it actually happening is so vanishingly small that it can be considered a practical impossibility.  If a person refuses to admit this, it means they are either invincibly stupid or piggishly obstinate or both.  Either way, it makes no sense to argue with them.  (Charity compels me to believe Jerad will reform his statements upon reflection.) 

But, insists Jerad, the probability of the 500-heads-in-a-row sequence is exactly the same as the probability of any other sequence.  Again, Jerad’s statement is true only in the trivial sense that any 500 flip sequence of a fair coin has the exact same probability as any other.  Sadly, however, when we engage in a non-trivial analysis of the sequence we see that Jerad’s DDS has caused him to succumb to the Darwinist error I call “Miller’s Mendacity” (in homage to Johnson’s Berra’s Blunder).*  Miller’s Mendacity is named after Ken Miller, who once made the following statement in an interview:  

One of the mathematical tricks employed by intelligent design involves taking the present day situation and calculating probabilities that the present would have appeared randomly from events in the past. And the best example I can give is to sit down with four friends, shuffle a deck of 52 cards, and deal them out and keep an exact record of the order in which the cards were dealt. We can then look back and say ‘my goodness, how improbable this is. We can play cards for the rest of our lives and we would never ever deal the cards out in this exact same fashion.’ You know what; that’s absolutely correct. Nonetheless, you dealt them out and nonetheless you got the hand that you did. 

Miller’s analysis is either misleading or pointless, because no ID supporter has ever, as far as I know, argued “X is improbable; therefore X was designed.” Consider the example advanced by Miller, a sequence of 52 cards dealt from a shuffled deck. Miller’s point is that extremely improbable non-designed events occur all the time and therefore it is wrong to say extremely improbable events must be designed. Miller blatently misrepresents ID theory, because no ID proponent says that mere improbability denotes design. 

Let’s consider a more relevant example.  Suppose, Jerad and I played 200 hands of heads up poker and I was the dealer.  If I dealt myself a royal flush in spades on every hand, I am sure Jerad would not be satisfied if I pointed out the (again, trivially true) fact that the sequence “200 royal flushes in spades in a row” has exactly the same probability as any other 200 hand sequence.  Jerad would naturally conclude that I had been cheating, and when I had shuffled the deck I only appeared to randomize the cards.  In other words, he would make a perfectly reasonable design inference.

What is the difference between Miller’s example and mine?  In Miller’s example the sequence of cards was only highly improbable. In my example the sequence of cards was not only highly improbable, but it also conformed to a specification.  ID proponents do not argue that mere improbability denotes design. They argue that design is the best explanation where there is a highly improbable event AND that event conforms to an independently designated specification. 

Returning to Jerad’s 500 heads example, what are we to make of his statement that if that happened he “might” get the coin checked.  Blithering nonsense.  Of course he would not get the coin checked, because Jerad would already know to a moral certainty that the coin is not fair, and getting it “checked” would be a silly waste of time.  If Jerad denies that he would know to a moral certainty that the coin was not fair, that only means that he is invincibly stupid or piggishly obstinate or both.  Again, either way, it would make no sense to argue with him.  (And again, charity compels me to believe that upon reflection Jerad would not deny this.) 

Part 2:  Why Would Jerad Say These Things? 

Responding to Jerad’s probability analysis is child’s play.  He makes the same old tiresome Darwinist errors that we have had to correct countless times before and will doubtless have to correct again countless times in the future. 

As the title of this post suggests, however, far more interesting to me is why Jerad – an obviously reasonably intelligent commenter – would say such things at all.  Sal calls it SSDD (Space Shuttle Denying Darwinist or Same Stuff, Different Darwinist).  I call it Darwinist Derangement Syndrome (“DDS”).  DDS is somewhat akin to Tourette syndrome in that sufferers appear to be compelled to make inexplicable statements (e.g., if I got 500 heads in a row I “might” get the coin checked or “It could happen.”).   

DDS is a sad and somewhat pathetic condition that I hope one day to have included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders published by the American Psychiatric Association.  The manual is already larded up with diagnostic inflation; why not another? 

What causes DDS?  Of course, it is difficult to be certain, but my best guess is that it results from an extreme commitment to materialist metaphysics.  What is the recommended treatment for DDS?  The only thing we can do is patiently point out the obvious over and over and over, with the small (but, one hopes, not altogether non-existent) chance that one day the patient will recover his senses. 

*I took Ken Miller down on his error in this post

Comments
AF: Kindly, convert our solar system into monkeys tossing 500 coins for the lifespan of the solar system. Say at one toss per second, a reasonable rate to take into account reading he tosses before recycling. Don't forget you will need banana plantations to keep them going, a sun and terrestrial planets, within atomic abundances and our monkeys will have to be on the surfaces. I guarantee that they will come nowhere near the number of samples I just gave in outline for the needle in haystack calc. There are things that are empirically unobservable to such high reliability that they are practically impossible. KFkairosfocus
June 23, 2013
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All sorts of things are possible, but, as I say, you repose too much faith in statistics/mathematics. I might grow a third ear on the top of my head the size of the US. (Ask a multiverser...). If mathematics defined it to be possible, though gazillions to the power of gazillions to one, I would repose absolutely no faith in it whatsoever. Not even theoretically, because mathematics is not the perfect discipline bitter-ender mechanists still hold it to be.Axel
June 23, 2013
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F/N: It seems people have a major problem appreciating: (a) configuration spaces clustered into partitions of vastly unequal statistical weight, and (ii) BLIND sampling/searching of populations under these circumstances. It probably does not help, that old fashioned Fisherian Hyp testing has fallen out of academic fashion, never mind that its approach is sound on sampling theory. Yes it is not as cool as Bayesian statistics etc, but there is a reason why it works well in practice. It is all about needles and haystacks. Let's start with a version of an example I have used previously, a large plot of a Gaussian distribution using a sheet of bristol board or the like, baked by a sheet of bagasse board or the like. Mark it into 1-SD wide stripes, say it is wide enough that we can get 5 SDs on either side. Lay it flat on the floor below a balcony, and drop small darts from a height that would make the darts scatter roughly evenly across the whole board. Any one point is indeed as unlikely as any other to be hit by a dart. BUT THAT DOES NOT EXTEND TO ANY REGION. As a result, as we build up the set of dart-drops, we will see a pattern, where the likelihood of getting hit is proportionate to area, as should be obvious. That immediately means that he bulk of the distribution, near the mean value peak, is far more likely to be hit than the far tails. For exactly the same reason why if one blindly reaches into a haystack and pulls a handful, one is going to have a hard time finding a needle in it. The likelihood of getting straw so far exceeds that of getting needle that searching for a needle in a haystack has become proverbial. In short, a small sample of a very large space that is blindly taken, will by overwhelming likelihood, reflect the bulk of the distribution, not relatively tiny special zones. (BTW, this is in fact a good slice of the statistical basis for the second law of thermodynamics.) The point of Fisherian testing is that skirts are special zones and take up a small part of the area of a distribution, so typical samples are rather unlikely to hit on them by chance. So much so that one can determine a degree of confidence of a suspicious sample not being by chance, based on its tendency to go for the far skirt. How does this tie into the design inference? By virtue of the analysis of config spaces -- populations of possibilities for configurations -- which can have W states and then we look at small, special, specific zones T in them. Those zones T are at the same time the sort of things that designers may want to target, clusters of configs that do interesting things, like spell out strings of at least 72 - 143 ASCII characters in contextually relevant, grammatically correct English, or object code for a program of similar complexity in bits [500 - 1,000] or the like. 500 bits takes up 2^500 possibilities, or 3.27*10^150. 1,000 bits takes up 2^1,000, or 1.07*10^301 possibilities To give an idea of just how large these numbers are, I took up the former limit, and said now our solar system's 10^57 atoms (by far and away mostly H and He in the sun but never mind) for its lifespan can go through a certain number of ionic chemical reaction time states taking 10^-14s. Where our solar system is our practical universe for atomic interactions, the next star over being 4.2 light years away . . . light takes 4.2 years to traverse the distance. (Now you know why warp drives or space folding etc is so prominent in Sci Fi literature). Now, set these 10^57 atoms the task of observing possible states of the configs of 500 coins, at one observation per 10^-14 s. For a reasonable estimate of the solar system's lifespan. Now, make that equivalent in scope to one straw. By comparison, the set of possibilities for 500 coins will take up a cubical haystack 1,000 LY on the side, about as thick as our galaxy. Now, superpose this haystack on our galactic neighbourhood, with several thousand stars in it etc. Notice, there is no particular shortage of special zones here, just that they are not going to be anywhere near the bulk, which for light years at a stretch will be nothing but straw. Now, your task, should you choose to accept it is to take a one-straw sized blind sample of the whole. Intuit5ion, backed up by sampling theory -- without need to worry over making debatable probability calculations -- will tell us the result, straight off. By overwhelming likelihood, we would sample only straw. That is why the instinct that getting 500 H's in a row or 500 T's or alternating H's and T's or ASCII code for a 72 letter sequence in English, etc, is utterly unlikely to happen by blind chance but is a lot more likely to happen by intent, is sound. And this is a simple, toy example case of a design inference on FSCO/I as sign. A very reliable inference indeed, as is backed up by literally billions of cases in point. Now, onlookers, it is not that more or less the same has not been put forth before and pointed out to the usual circles of objectors. Over and over and over again in fact. And in fact, here is Wm A Dembski in NFL:
p. 148: “The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology. I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity [[cf. here below], or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . . Biological specification always refers to function . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism's subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole] . . .” p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”
(And, Stephen Meyer presents much the same point in his Signature in the Cell, 2009, not exactly an unknown book.) Why then do so many statistically or mathematically trained objectors to design theory so often present the strawman argument that appears so many times yet again in this thread? First, it cannot be because of lack of capacity to access and understand the actual argument, we are dealing with those with training in relevant disciplines. Nor is it that the actual argument is hard to access, especially for those who have hung around at UD for years. Nor is such a consistent error explicable by blind chance, chance would make them get it right some of the time, by any reasonable finding, given their background. So, we are left with ideological blindness, multiplied by willful neglect of duties of care to do due diligence to get facts straight before making adverse comment, and possibly willful knowing distortion out of the notion that debates are a game in which all is fair if you can get away with it. Given that there has been corrective information presented over and over and over again, including by at least one Mathematics professor who appears above, the collective pattern is, sadly, plainly: seeking rhetorical advantage by willful distortion. Mendacity in one word. If we were dealing with seriousness about the facts, someone would have got it right and there would be at least a debate that nope, we are making a BIG mistake. The alignment is too perfect. Yes, at the lower end, those looking for leadership and blindly following are jut that, but at the top level there is a lot more responsibility than that. Sad, but not surprising. This fits a far wider, deeply disturbing pattern that involves outright slander and hateful, unjustified stereotyping and scapegoating. Where, enough is enough. KFkairosfocus
June 23, 2013
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500 heads is more than enough proof for any reasonable person to conclude that the coin has been rigged - unless, of course, the person flipping the coin is an ID advocate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1LCVknKUJ4 Stupid professor of physics ... doesn't he realize that the computer browser error check code he uncovered embedded in superstring equations is just as likely to exist as any other series of 1's and 0's?William J Murray
June 23, 2013
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I don’t believe any number of monkeys tossing that coin would ever, in all eternity, produce a perfect sequence of 500 heads, as asserted by Liddle.
Given a coin, after being tossed will land either face up or down, the probability is 0.5 for either outcome, no matter what else is going on. The probability of parallel and/or series of such events is easily calculable. The key point is that whatever else is going on, the outcome of the single event is still 50:50. A coin has no memory. Whether you believe it or not, the chance of a sequence of 500 heads is remote but not impossible.Alan Fox
June 23, 2013
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Sovereign element though mathematics is in empirical science, it has been proven to be unable to give a perfect description, in its own terms, of our universe. So, it has a kind of 'mortal', imperfect relationship, to match the imperfect, material, space-time world it helps to describe. Surely, here is a circumstance, where a slavish deference to statistical/mathematical possibility should give way to common sense - which, of course, is a bit of a misnomer, where atheists of all stamps are concerned, now that there are so many unambiguous pointers to, at the very least, theism. What is virtually impossible, is to get an atheist to look at evidence they don't wish to. Godel might as well not have bothered. So, I don't believe any number of monkeys tossing that coin would ever, in all eternity, produce a perfect sequence of 500 heads, as asserted by Liddle.Axel
June 23, 2013
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Elisabeth B Liddle #43 You are charitable, but don't defend the indefensible.niwrad
June 23, 2013
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niwrad, he's not saying "[I] don't believe in design". He just said that he'd be suspicious, but that "it doesn't mean there was any design behind it". Lots of things can make you suspicious, but have an "innocent" explanation. 500 heads is capable of an innocent explanation In other words 500 heads is perfectly possible under the fair-coin/fair-toss hypothesis, as is any sequence, although all are extremely improbable. However 500 Heads is not only improbable (as all sequences are) but also striking, and therefore would arouse suspicion. I don't see anything contradictory. And it's worth pointing out that alternating heads and tails (HTHTHTHTHTHTH.....) would be just as striking (and almost as as easy to describe), just as improbable, but a member of a much larger set or sequences with the same ratio of heads-to-tails. As eigenstate suggests, it would nonetheless probably excite just as much suspicion, with just as much justification. But be just as possible.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 23, 2013
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Jerad #39
"And if that outcome is significantly outside of my expected or normal outcomes then I might get suspicious. But it doesn’t meant there was any design behind it."
Yes, your position is contradictory. In fact it is obvious that here with "design" we mean sensu lato any cause different from pure chance involved in the process. Therefore: (A) if you are "suspicious" this means that you suspect a non random cause involved; (B) if you "don't believe in a design" this means that you do NOT suspect a non random cause involved. Do you see that you cannot concatenate A and B, as you did, because you become illogical?niwrad
June 23, 2013
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Science and applied mathematics look for the best explanatory models for the observed evidence.
That is why design is a safe inference
A good model matches the existing data AND predicts future observations.
And that is why dawininism isn't a good model.
Before a new model is adopted it must beat the old model on all counts. It’s hard work since our current models have come from decades of verification.
And yet there still isn't any evidence for natural selection being a designer mimic. Lenski's 50,000+ generations and no new proteins, no new functions- just an existing function used in a different environment- that was the BIG news. So what is this alleged verification you are talkimg about? And what math supports darwinism?Joe
June 23, 2013
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Joe
Maybe, but one thing is certain, the monkeys would never know.
heh.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 23, 2013
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You could argue that “outcomes” don’t exist in nature but I would contest that you are wrong.
In hindsight outcomes exists but not as pre-existing goals in my mind.
Your position continues to be contradictory. You cannot be “suspicious” and in the same time believe “there was no design behind it”. What you are suspicious of, but design?
I'm suspicious of human intervention for various reasons. I'm suspicious of poorly minted coins. I'm suspicious of poorly designed testing procedures that favour certain outcomes. I'm suspicious of everyday honest human beings being completely objective in reporting what they've observed. As I well know from my own experience getting things wrong. There is no contradiction. We are fallible human beings, we get things wrong, we use fallible, bias methodologies. We have no absolutes. Before we make probabalistic arguments we have to let go of all our biases. Anyway, my point is that you cannot make a design inference from that line of reasoning. You could be very, very wrong.Jerad
June 23, 2013
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SteveGoss:
So I would think that a sequence with roughly 50% heads would be much more likely than a sequence with either 0% or 100% heads. As a corollary it would also seem that sequences with large clumps of the same result (a string of heads, or instance) would be more unlikely than sequences with the results randomly scattered around.
Adn you are absolutely right. But it's important to distinguish between the probability of any one sequence, and the probability of a class of sequences. Probabilities are derived from frequency distributions. 500 coin tosses can fall in 2^500 different ways, which is a huge number. Of those 2^500 different ways, only two of them have all the coins facing the same way up. So "all the same" is an incredibly rarer way for the coins to fall. On the other hand there are many many sequences where about half the coins fall one way and half fall the other. So you are far more likely to get one of those, than one of the rare ones. BUT: No ONE of the 2^500 different possible sequences is any more or less likely than any other. Some classes of sequences are rarer than others, and therefore one of those rare classes is much less likely than one of the common classes. But that is not the same as saying that any ONE sequence is any more likely than any other. They are all the same, and this one, which I just generated: T T H H H H T H H T T H H T T T T T T H H H H T T H H H T H H H T H T T H T H T H T T T T H T T T H T T T T T T H H T H H T H T H H H T T T H H H T H T H H H H H H T T H T T H T H H H T T H H H T T H T H T H H H H H H H H H H T T T H H T H T H H H H H T T T H T T H H H H T T H H T T H H T H T T H H H H T H T H H H H T H H H H T T H H H T T T H H H H H H H H H T T H H H H H H T T H H H T H T H T H H T H H T T T T T T H T H H H H H H T H T T T H T T H T T H T H T T H T T H T H H H H H T T H H T T H H T T T H T T T T H T T H T T H T T T T H T H H H H T T T H H T H T T T H H T T H T H T T T T T H H H T T T H T T H T T H T T H H T T T H T T H H H T T H H T T T H T T H T T H H H H H T T H H T T H H T T T H T H T H H H T H H T T H H H H T T H T T H T T T T T T H T H T T H H H T H H H T T T H H H T H T H H H H H T H T T T T T H T H H H T H H T H T H T T H H H H H T T H H H T T H H T T H T H T T T H T T T T T T T H H H T T H T H T H H H H T T H T H T T T H H T T T T H T T H T H H T T T T T H T And which Excel tells me has 254/500 Heads, is just as (un)likely as 500 Heads. The chances of me ever throwing this sequence again are infinitessimal, exactly as infinitessimal as the chances of me ever throwing all Heads. Yet I just threw it (well, virtually threw it), on my very first throw!Elizabeth B Liddle
June 23, 2013
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That, design, would be a very safe inference
That is an assumption. You cannot possibly make such a claim without first discovering and elucidating and assigning probabilities to all the possible explanations. And design is only one of many possible explanations. Each explanation implies a cascade of follow-on manifestations or expectations. Science and applied mathematics look for the best explanatory models for the observed evidence. A good model matches the existing data AND predicts future observations. But even the best model is provisional and subject to change. This is a reasonable and sensible approach. Before a new model is adopted it must beat the old model on all counts. It's hard work since our current models have come from decades of verification.Jerad
June 23, 2013
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Jerad #33
"And if that outcome is significantly outside of my expected or normal outcomes then I might get suspicious. But it doesn’t meant there was any design behind it."
Your position continues to be contradictory. You cannot be "suspicious" and in the same time believe "there was no design behind it". What you are suspicious of, but design?niwrad
June 23, 2013
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I urge you to use this opportunity to really think about probabilities. Many people are far to quick to dismiss it! Think of it this way, any probability - by it's very nature has a chance of happening so yes both 500 heads and 5 million heads could happen. What really matters is the point at which you can no longer accept something as being the result of chance. Chance is what we are talking about here at the end of the day, selection can be ignored when it comes to the chances of genetic mutations ending up at a specified outcome. Natural selection does nothing to reduce the number of changes get to a result. Overall changes yes, but the number required no. You could argue that "outcomes" don't exist in nature but I would contest that you are wrong. Start to look around at living organisms and you will hopefully see what I am getting at. Consider snake venom. (Literally the first thing that sprang to mind). For venomous snakes to be able to kill their prey, it is a requirement that they: A. produce and store venom B. can deliver this venom into their prey When you really think about this is should strike you first as a puzzling scenario and one that involves chances. What are the odds of randomly producing a venom and sac to contain it. Perhaps, finger in the wind here, 100 base pairs are needed to control the development of the sac including its structure, lining, blood supply, venom gland etc... I chose 100 to counter the fact there there could be a number of different ways of producing such a mechanism. (yes in reality it is probably in the tens or hundreds of thousands but I am trying to make this simple). Great a sequence of 100, that ain't too bad. Well now we need a delivery system. One that happens to connect the sac to the specialized teeth. So we need to evolve ourselves a duct, one that attach at both the sac and the teeth. No good if it connects the sac to it's arse - got to be the teeth. We also need those specialized teeth with the holes in them though or the venom won't get out. No worries another sequence of say 100 should take care of that. Ah but we also need a muscle to eject the venom and also to connect to the brain and also to make the snake aware of this muscle and when to contract it. Another 100 pairs should suffice. See the problem. Not just one sequence... three of them!!! THREE!!! This is a huge problem, if you fail to see why, stop reading. The reason is because there is clearly more than three sequences that are required for a snakes venom system. Also those sequences are clearly longer than 100. So this was just ONE example from ONE animal which no doubt contains many many more such examples. So when you look at EVERY animal - and there are a lot of them, and really think about the thousands and thousands and thousands of far more unlikely that 500 heads that have some together you really got to start to question if random mutations are enough. If you even think the word "selection" now I am sending you a virtual punch - selection solves nothing of this problem. If you don't see a problem then YOU have a problem. I can't offer an alternative sadly, my best hope is that organisms are procedurally built allowing for greater changes to be made by early mutations. But this just adds further problems :( I hope that made some sense to someone and believe me if you just look around and think you will see problems like the one in our friend the snake in nearly every living thing you encounter. I am not saying God did it, or evolution is a lie or anything like that... just that mutations acted upon by natural selection is not the final picture, not by a long shot. bbw
June 23, 2013
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But if 500 Hs did happen it’s not an indication of design.
That, design, would be a very safe inference
And if the design inference depends on such arguments then it’s doomed.
Sez JeradJoe
June 23, 2013
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Jerad, yours are two perfectly contradictory statements. Please decide.
I'm a realist but at the same time I understand the mathematics. If I look at any event in my life I can compute the chances of that outcome to be astronomical. And if that outcome is significantly outside of my expected or normal outcomes then I might get suspicious. But it doesn't meant there was any design behind it. That is an assumption. Correlation still does not equal causation. Random stuff happens. All the time. And random stuff can be very . . . improbable.Jerad
June 23, 2013
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Elizabeth, Science can only allow for a certain amount of luck.Joe
June 23, 2013
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I think we should drop the word "proof". We don't do proofs in empirical science. 500 heads would be extremely good evidence that the coin was rigged. However, if careful investigation showed that the coin was perfectly balanced and the tossing mechanism perfectly adjusted, you might still have to conclude it was Just One of Those Crazy Things. But I don't think anyone seriously disagrees, do they?Elizabeth B Liddle
June 23, 2013
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Neil:
There’s a problem when you take a pattern that has already occurred, and then claim it is so improbable that it could not have occurred naturally.
The thing about that, Neil, is all someone has to do is come along and demonstrate it indeed can arise via nature, operating freely. That would shut those people up in a hurry. Strange that no one ever seems to get around to doing that though.Joe
June 23, 2013
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If you had a gazillion^gazillion monkeys tossing for a gazillion years, you’d almost certainly get 500 heads at some point.
Maybe, but one thing is certain, the monkeys would never know.Joe
June 23, 2013
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Every toss of a fair coin is 50-50 heads or tails. So it's 1/2 chance that the first toss comes up heads or tails. It's 1/2 chance that the second toss comes up heads or tails. Etc. It's a fair coin, No bias. Give me any specified sequence of Hs and Ts. Each postion has a 50-50 chance of coming up with the specified value either H or T. To find the total probability of the whole sequence coming up EXACTLY as specified you multiply the positional probabilities together. 500 positions, each position has a probability of 1/2 or 50-50 you get a the probability of any specific sequence of Hs and Ts is 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 . . . 500 times. You get 1/2^500. OF COURSE it's more likely you'll get some Hs and some Ts. Of course I would never bet on getting 500 Hs in a row. But if 500 Hs did happen it's not an indication of design. And if the design inference depends on such arguments then it's doomed.Jerad
June 23, 2013
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I've realised that perhaps some people really are making an error here, in thinking that if something is extremely unlikely, it cannot happen unless there are enough trials to make it considerably more likely. This is not the case. As Barry rightly says:
Jerad’s statement is true only in the trivial sense that flipping 500 heads in a row is not physically or logically impossible.
Yes, it is trivially true. It is, indeed, simply true! If you had a gazillion^gazillion monkeys tossing for a gazillion years, you'd almost certainly get 500 heads at some point. But that "some point" could be on the first try, or the last, or any point in between with equal probability Granville:
Unintelligent forces can produce extremely improbable results, such as a particular coin toss sequence, what they cannot produce are simply describable, extremely improbable, results.
Not sure what you're saying here, Granville. If a describable result is extremely improbable, and a non-describable one is also extremely improbable, why is the second producible by unintelligent forces, and the first not? Or is this not what you are saying?Elizabeth B Liddle
June 23, 2013
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"Jerad #20: There is no mathematical argument that would say that 500 heads in 500 coin tosses is proof of intervention."
"Jerad #24: I would be very, very suspicious and would do my utmost to check and see if there were some bias entering into the system."
Jerad, yours are two perfectly contradictory statements. Please decide.niwrad
June 23, 2013
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Jerad is quoted as saying:
All we are saying is that any particular sequence is equally unlikely and that 500 heads is just one of those particular sequences.
I am not a mathematician and I do not play one on TV, so I don't know what real mathematicians would say about the comment above, but it strikes me as being false. 500 heads in 500 tosses is not really just one probability. it's 500 discrete tosses accumulated. So there are 500 probabilities to be dealt with. The probability of getting heads on one random toss is 50% but the result of one toss is either 100% head, or 100% tail. With two coins the possible results are 0, 50 or 100% heads (and 100, 50 or 0% tails). But two of the possible outcomes have 50% possibility (Head / tail and tail / head). And once we start flipping the coin again and again, the number of possible outcomes that are clustered around 50% head and 50% tails increases. So I would think that a sequence with roughly 50% heads would be much more likely than a sequence with either 0% or 100% heads. As a corollary it would also seem that sequences with large clumps of the same result (a string of heads, or instance) would be more unlikely than sequences with the results randomly scattered around.SteveGoss
June 23, 2013
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Then you, before 500 heads in a row in a money coin flip game, would really say “well, money lost, after all 500 heads in a row is not proof of intervention”!
As I have already said I would be very, very suspicious and would do my utmost to check and see if there were some bias entering into the system. But I would do the same if any particular pre-specified sequence arose. Psychologically we fixate on sequences like all Hs. Or all Ts. Or HTHTHT . . . because they don't seem 'normal' to us. But mathematically they're all the same. Probability wise. Mathematics is not a spectator sport. If you're going to play you have to work at it. I do know what you're trying to get me to address. The notion that certain developmental/evolutionary sequences are so unlikely that it just makes sense to fall back on design as a more reasonable explanation. If you put your supposition(s) into a mathematical context then I'll do my best to address them. But there's no need to be vague and suggestive. Or to draw unimplied conclusions. Ask.Jerad
June 23, 2013
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scordova:
But to be clear, do you think 500 fair coins heads violates the chance hypothesis?
If that happened to me, I would find it startling, and I would wonder whether there was some hanky-panky going on. However, a strict mathematical analysis tells me that it is just as probable (or improbable) as any other sequence. So the appearance of this sequence by itself does not prove unfairness. Apart from the mathematics, there is the question of whether there might be people involved who might be playing practical jokes. This would be an attractive sequence for tricksters.Neil Rickert
June 23, 2013
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Jerad #20
"There is no mathematical argument that would say that 500 heads in 500 coin tosses is proof of intervention."
Then you, before 500 heads in a row in a money coin flip game, would really say "well, money lost, after all 500 heads in a row is not proof of intervention"!niwrad
June 23, 2013
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Sorry, I failed to close the blockquote tags properly in my response. Please read my post with some understanding.Jerad
June 23, 2013
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