Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Jerry’s challenge

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Sunrise over the Dead Sea seen from Masada, Israel. Courtesy of Wikipedia.

I’ve written previously about Christopher Hitchens’ challenge: “Name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever.” Professor Jerry Coyne has come up with a new challenge of his own: “Tell me exactly what ‘knowledge’ religion has provided that is not derivable from secular reason.”

I’d be happy to oblige. I’ll submit two statements. The first is known to everyone. The second is taken from Professor Coyne’s own blog.

1. The sun will rise tomorrow.
2. Killing an unarmed man who does not resist arrest in a way that endangers his captors is murder and therefore wrong, even if that man happens to be Osama bin Laden.

For the record, I think Professor Coyne is right about the second statement, and I applaud his courage for making it. While I’m quite sure that Osama bin Laden got his just deserts, he should have also gotten a trial, if it was possible to capture him alive.

Now, Professor Coyne seems to be quite sure about the second statement, so I presume he would count it as “knowledge.” So my reply to Professor Coyne’s challenge is: can you derive either of the above two statements from secular reason?

Professor Coyne is a very intelligent man, and I’m sure he will try to turn the tables at this point. He may ask me: “You say you believe in God. Please tell me how belief in God enables you to derive either of the two statements listed above.”

Sorry, but I’m not biting. Here’s why. Either I can meet his challenge or I can’t. If I can, then the ball is back in his court. If I can’t, then the ball is still in his court. Does he claim to know these things or doesn’t he? If he does, then how does he know them? But if he doesn’t know them, then shouldn’t he have the modesty to admit as much?

I’m going to focus on Professor Coyne’s first statement in this post. As a scientist, he would claim to know that the sun will rise tomorrow, and he would presumably base this claim to knowledge on the laws of Nature. I have previously argued that the laws of Nature provide no assurance about future events. In a recent article, Seven questions for Professor Carroll, I posed the following question to the physicist Sean Carroll, Senior Research Associate in Physics at the California Institute of Technology, in response to his article, Does the universe need God?:

Do you believe that rules, which prescribe the behavior of objects, are a fundamental and irreducible feature of the cosmos, even in the absence of human observers?

There are only two possible answers: Yes and No. If the answer is “Yes,” then this invites the further question, which I posed to him: “How can rules exist in the absence of a Mind that made these rules?” But if the answer is “No,” then we face a further dilemma. As I wrote:

If … rules are not a fundamental feature of the cosmos, then why is it rational for scientists to believe that the universe will continue to conform to the laws of nature in the future, instead of violating them? Specifically, why should I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow at the forecast time, when there is no rule saying that it should rise, and when there are innumerable ways in which it could fail to do so?

I hope you will resist the temptation to answer: “Because it’s simpler.” It’s one thing to try and order the observations you’ve already made in the simplest way you can. That’s what scientists do. But it would be naive to expect the universe to go on behaving simply in the future, simply because it would fit your favorite theory better if it did. That would be an anthropomorphic projection of human wishes onto the cosmos. In a cosmos without rules, it simply makes no sense to say that our remarkably lucky run of sunrises every day for the past 4.5 billion years should continue in future, and it would surely be very surprising if they did continue.

I hope you will also resist the temptation to answer: “It’s rational to believe that the cosmos behaves in a reliable fashion, because we wouldn’t be here if it didn’t.” That’s a perfectly good reason to believe that the cosmos has behaved reliably in the past, but it doesn’t constitute a reason for believing that it will behave reliably in the future.

Professor Carroll is a very busy man, and he hasn’t answered my question to date, although he was courteous enough to acknowledge my post in an email. So I would like to ask Professor Coyne the same question: how do you know that the Sun will rise tomorrow? To me, it really seems like an anthropomorphic projection. You desperately want the sun to rise tomorrow (don’t we all?), and as a scientist, you would like to say that you know it will (for if scientists don’t know that, then what do they know?) So you hang your hopes on the laws of Nature. But to me, trusting in a law of Nature sounds like a funny thing to do. If a law of Nature is a mere regularity, then there is no reason to trust it. To use an old example: every lump of gold out there in the cosmos has a volume of less than one cubic kilometer. That’s a regularity, if it’s true (which it probably is). However, we wouldn’t think for a minute of trusting it to hold. On the other hand, if a law of Nature is more than a mere regularity, then what is it? Does it have a normative content or not? And if it does, where does the norm come from, if not from a Mind?

As regards Professor Coyne’s second statement, I suppose he will try to justify it by appealing to the Golden Rule: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” It is certainly true that if I were accused of a crime, I’d like a trial. But I find it impossible to answer the question: “Would you like a trial, if you were a mass murderer?” because I find it very hard to put myself in a mass murderer’s shoes. Appealing to such an extreme counterfactual seems like a shaky justification to me.

What I think underlies Professor Coyne’s abhorrence of State-sanctioned murder – even the murder of mass murderers – is his deep-seated belief, which he perhaps has not even articulated to himself, that a person is somehow a sacred object, and that people do not lose their sacredness by doing bad things. A person’s a person, no matter how bad. I agree. Religious people know exactly what the word “sacred” means, of course. But how does Professor Coyne, an avowed secularist, claim to know that people are sacred in this way, and that their sacredness is inalienable? Why can’t it be forfeited? There’s only one answer I know: because we are made in the image and likeness of God. But Professor Coyne doesn’t believe in God. Or does he?

Comments
" Googling” does not mean you’re consulting “your latin”, and clearly you don’t know what even that Catholic quotation means in detail. Don’t worry, this is some ignorance you can keep – I’ll just leave it at “Wow, you’re hilarious wrong on this” and move on." Hilarious wrong? Please, then explain: "Quare illi homines salvari non possent, qui Ecclesiam Catholicam a Deo per Iesum Christum ut necessariam esse conditam non ignorantes, tamen vel in eam intrare, vel in eadem perseverare noluerint." From Vatican II. " "They are not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it." I frankly find your name offensive, and your attempts to laugh it off ignore a lot of Church history. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus got people burned. Maybe you're just ignorant, and don't know what nulla salus means to hard-line Catholics. Take Mel Gibson: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/4224452 “There is no salvation for those outside the Church,” Gibson replied. “I believe it.” He elaborated: “Put it this way. My wife is a saint. She’s a much better person than I am. Honestly. She’s, like, Episcopalian, Church of England. She prays, she believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that stuff. And it’s just not fair if she doesn’t make it, she’s better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it.”" A good summary of the doctrine. Ironic on a thread where you claim religiosity automatically conveys that "humanity is intrinsically valuable and deserving of particular consideration and respect."DrREC
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
09:55 PM
9
09
55
PM
PDT
DrREC, Curious name. Am I damned? Perhaps my Latin fails me, but I think your name mean none are saved-that is, without the Roman Catholic Church. No? "Googling" does not mean you're consulting "your latin", and clearly you don't know what even that Catholic quotation means in detail. Don't worry, this is some ignorance you can keep - I'll just leave it at "Wow, you're hilarious wrong on this" and move on. Interesting response-so the notion “humans are sacred and are intrinsically deserving of certain benevolent treatment” has been with us for millennia, but only executed in the last century? Hmm….some gap. No, it's been executed for far longer than that. Perfectly, even consistently? Absolutely not - we're sinners all, and all that entails. But the idea that humanity is intrinsically valuable and deserving of particular consideration and respect? That is not new to Christianity. Note: The existence of slavery for a period of time does not suffice to disprove this. But keep on swinging. Frankly the Christian track record on even that question obliterates the atheist track record. But everyone knows that - they just don't want to talk about it.nullasalus
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
09:27 PM
9
09
27
PM
PDT
nullasalus- Curious name. Am I damned? Perhaps my Latin fails me, but I think your name mean none are saved-that is, without the Roman Catholic Church. No? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus Interesting response-so the notion "humans are sacred and are intrinsically deserving of certain benevolent treatment" has been with us for millennia, but only executed in the last century? Hmm....some gap.DrREC
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
08:43 PM
8
08
43
PM
PDT
It is a historically curious thing to claim due process rights emerge from a notion of the sacred. How many centuries of Judeo-Christian society go without such a notion? Without the notion that humans are sacred and are intrinsically deserving of certain benevolent treatment? 0 centuries.nullasalus
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
08:38 PM
8
08
38
PM
PDT
Let me get this right. Men act out of their genes without free will, and their lust is a testament there is no God? Okay, got it.Upright BiPed
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
08:33 PM
8
08
33
PM
PDT
I could achieve the same 'morality' through property rights. The most fundamental property is oneself, not to be deprived without just cause, as judged by a trial of ones peers. Given the history of rights, and their emergence from a propertied class, this might be closer to the truth.... And we have been pitifully slow to extend them to all.... Property rights seem to trump 'sacred' personhood through most of history.DrREC
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
08:18 PM
8
08
18
PM
PDT
"I agree. Religious people know exactly what the word “sacred” means, of course. But how does Professor Coyne, an avowed secularist, claim to know that people are sacred in this way, and that their sacredness is inalienable? Why can’t it be forfeited? " It is a historically curious thing to claim due process rights emerge from a notion of the sacred. How many centuries of Judeo-Christian society go without such a notion? Did Christian slaveowners know the sacredness of their property was inalienable? No, this is truly amazing revisionist thinking, taking a very recent political development and claiming it as some innate property of religiosity. Where was your inalienable sacredness for black persons prior to only a few decades ago? Where is it for Africans living under Christian dictators today?DrREC
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
08:15 PM
8
08
15
PM
PDT
I don't know why Dr. Coyne would bother responding. My guess is that he'd say first that you do not actually answer his question directly (i.e., you dance around it) and second that neither statement you offer is one of "knowledge."LarTanner
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
07:19 PM
7
07
19
PM
PDT
Perhaps he could repose Darwin's "nobility" skit. After 150 years of arguments, the old girl could a little freshening. Besides, materialists have more rouge than Mary Kay.Upright BiPed
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
07:02 PM
7
07
02
PM
PDT
Whats Coyne's problem with killing an ant from a different colony? Did evolution make a mistake?Upright BiPed
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
06:42 PM
6
06
42
PM
PDT
Whats Coynes problem with killing an ant from a different colony? Did evolution make a mistake?Upright BiPed
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
06:37 PM
6
06
37
PM
PDT
There is no "secular reason". There is simply "reason". It would probably be better to ask what Coyne means by "knowledge" and "reason" here before engaging him. Then again, the man's not exactly a serious thinker, so why take him too seriously I suppose.nullasalus
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
05:57 PM
5
05
57
PM
PDT
Mung, you cant conceive of a form of reasoning that is neutral in regards to religious presuppositions?paragwinn
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
05:40 PM
5
05
40
PM
PDT
Tell me exactly what ‘knowledge’ religion has provided that is not derivable from secular reason.
I have no idea what secular reason is or how such a thing could possibly exist.Mung
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
05:15 PM
5
05
15
PM
PDT
OT: New posting by Douglas Axe at Biologic site: Correcting Four Misconceptions about my 2004 Article in JMBMung
May 4, 2011
May
05
May
4
04
2011
05:03 PM
5
05
03
PM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply