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Jim Stump: “I almost felt sorry for design advocates”

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In his recent review of Benjamin Jantzen’s Introduction to Design Arguments (Cambridge University Press, 2014), evolutionist Jim Stump finds much to agree with because, as Stump argues, design arguments are both bad science and bad religion. For example, Michael Behe argues that evolution is challenged by the irreducible complexity of biological structures, but “almost all” biologists think Behe’s examples don’t hold water. The problem is Behe is implicitly appealing to a caricature of how evolution works that views complexity arising all at once. “In reality,” the ex Bethel professor explains, “natural selection operates on combinations of traits, not merely on isolated structures. Half-developed wings won’t help an insect fly, but they might help it do other things that contribute to its survival, like skim across the surface of water. Contrary to the ID claim about irreducible complexity, you don’t have to get the whole thing at once.”  Read more

Comments
Casey Luskin weighs in here: The Danger of Capitulating to "Settled Science": Cambridge University Press Book Misrepresents ID Casey Luskin August 3, 2015 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/08/the_danger_of_c098231.html also of note: Here is the new podcast from DI: podcast - Debating Darwin’s Doubt: Casey Luskin on BioLogos’ Responses http://www.discovery.org/multimedia/audio/2015/08/debating-darwins-doubt-casey-luskin-on-biologos-responses/bornagain77
August 3, 2015
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The weirdest thing is that there are so many knock-out arguments against naturalism, any one of which, in a sane Academy, would be QED! A kind of obverse of Nassim Taleb's Black Swan concept. It is not as if they were each only small parts of a gigantic compendium of evidences of the one solution to a gigantic puzzle. Each one on its own is comparable to a dialectical H-bomb on a small island in a river.Axel
August 3, 2015
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What's to argue about intelligent design, ChrisM, among people who all have at least the minimal requisite common sense to identify intelligent design of unimaginable sophistication throughout the natural world? And, moreover, see it repeatedly confirmed by the science - even to the extent of coded information relating to designs. Intelligent design is a primordial paradigm. It's either wholly true or wholly false. There can be no vibrant world of ever more desperate fantasists among IDers projecting riotously fanciful micro conjectures to support their primordial paradigm. Retro-engineering affords the most comprehensibly compelling proof, if one were, indeed, ever needed. Intelligent Design qua the scientific concept, is simply gilding the lily.Axel
August 3, 2015
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Thanks, Chris. Sure, I'll be glad to respond any time. I'll add that you did a nice job taking a serious look at the bigger issues. It's important because that often gets lost in the noise of the daily battle. While I'm confident in what I see, you raised some warning flags that are significant. We can't afford to lose sight of that.Silver Asiatic
August 3, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic - These replies I much appreciate...I have some things to think about - I hope to talk to you again about this if that's ok. It's because I'm not sure how long I'm going to be, I wanted to mention in parting the manner and content of your reply characterizes an openness of the right kind which is about plainness, you see a game well into play perhaps I wasn't aware of at all; and an eye for the ball that I'd have to compliment. Later.ChrisM
August 3, 2015
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follow up ... just take a look at how idiotic this thing from Jim Stump is. They're still trying to debate Behe's argument and they haven't even understood it yet. That's willful ignorance because they can't afford to understand it since it's the death of their theory.Silver Asiatic
August 3, 2015
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ChrisM
If some of you are authentic that you see I.D. in a productive scientific franchise, and you are willing to put the huge amount of thankless foundational commitment that it takes to forge a robust science, and feel I.D. has a large number of others just like you to make this happen, then you will have to make a real start on that, basically now.
You're underestimating several things: 1. the impact of Darwin's Doubt. 2. The shift that will take place when religious believers realize that evolutionism has collapsed. 3. The conjectures that attempt to fill the gap of the dead theory will be even more laughable than Dawrin himself. 4. ID scientists don't just emerge suddenly -- they're being fostered in schools now and will appear later. 5. ID itself as a science program is very limited. It doesn't claim to be a replacement for biology or physics -- but merely an important component of both. 6. There is already considerable ID science available now, with all signs indicating it will increase
Prejudice obviously doesn’t translate to a positive for I.D. It’s a negative for evolutionary science and that’s all it is.
Not for people who have been following the debate. Unsuccessful and unfair attacks on ID are strengths for ID. Novelist Tom Wolfe, for example, a pop culture icon is writing a new book defending ID from those very same unfair attacks. This was mentioned in passing in the New Yorker magazine without any raised-eyebrows, as if it was just a normal thing (credit Ben Stein's Expelled also). This whole thing would have been unthinkable 10 years ago.
The content of this website for example, I would say is well over 90% negatively focused…basically with your feet you currently defined yourselves in terms of the problems in the mainstream science. That is not enough.
Perhaps so, but if ID can continue to take down mainstream evolution, then that's a massive achievement and anyone who views things fairly will know it was ID's victory.
Where is the fierce debating, the competing theories within and between your ranks? Where is the passion for discovery? Where are the noble failures – the great pioneers at the root and source, the men and women’s wholes lives given. The intrepid adventurers vanishing into the malarial foliages, next to be seen a gray rake crawling half mad from the bush clutching volumes of hand drawn intricacies of ecologic intimacy.
We see none of that in the evolution camp. And Dembski, Behe and Meyer for example have been revolutionary.
I’m sorry to be harsh but the wares by your choices you display here, are negative and….disinterested almost…in I.D. itself.
Every attack against evolution here contains a defense of ID. Usually, it's unspoken, but you have to read carefully. The design inference is offered positively as the only reasonable alternative to evolutionary insanity.Silver Asiatic
August 3, 2015
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It is true I think the 'blank cheques' are drying up for Evolutionary theory. They are haemorrhaging status for sure, but it's worth mentioning status and credibility are not conserved quantities. Their status going down does not translate to I.D. status going up. If some of you are authentic that you see I.D. in a productive scientific franchise, and you are willing to put the huge amount of thankless foundational commitment that it takes to forge a robust science, and feel I.D. has a large number of others just like you to make this happen, then you will have to make a real start on that, basically now. I want to be truthful and positive...and I'd be neither of those on a platform of denial and avoidance of the wall-to-wall institutional prejudice served with seconds now to I.D. track thinkers from the start. Prejudice obviously doesn't translate to a positive for I.D. It's a negative for evolutionary science and that's all it is. The fairest I can be for the time I've got is I look at the content and focus where most of you appear to be most of the time, and draw inferences from that what you are saying with your feet. The content of this website for example, I would say is well over 90% negatively focused...basically with your feet you currently defined yourselves in terms of the problems in the mainstream science. That is not enough. Where is the fierce debating, the competing theories within and between your ranks? Where is the passion for discovery? Where are the noble failures - the great pioneers at the root and source, the men and women's wholes lives given. The intrepid adventurers vanishing into the malarial foliages, next to be seen a gray rake crawling half mad from the bush clutching volumes of hand drawn intricacies of ecologic intimacy. I'm sorry to be harsh but the wares by your choices you display here, are negative and....disinterested almost...in I.D. itself. peace and love babyChrisM
August 3, 2015
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There is just no shame at all in what they do, is there? Rather than admit their error, they go into ultra-denial mode. At some point this has got to become pretty embarrassing for them because everyone can see right through their tactics. Yet they remain cocky and keep up the bluff hoping that will make the problem go away. But more and more, that doesn't cut it any more. Now you have websites like this that disect and explain why their "just so stories" do not cut it. They are going to have to change tactics to remain in the game. I have an idea for them. How about dealing with the arguments instead of simply attacking the source of the argument in order to avoid having to answer it? That's a novel idea for a scientist! I think that would win respect and people would be more likely to listen to what they say rather than just avoiding the argument by sneering at the supposedly ignorant right wing creationists who they claim are anti-science.tjguy
August 3, 2015
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Jim Stump: The problem is Behe is implicitly appealing to a caricature of how evolution works that views complexity arising all at once.
Jim Stump is a moron. I almost feel sorry for him.Box
August 3, 2015
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oh brother. Half wings for skimming the water!! Thats a appeal to the unlikely. Whats with the almost all biologists reject ID thing. Few biologists study it. they study living biology. oNly a few study the origin of biology and those processes. So ID thinkers are only taking on a few people. Then ID are saying that complexity is beyond chance. This is very common in mankind. The better idea usually starts out lonely . ID/YEC are already not that lonely.Robert Byers
August 2, 2015
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The argument over irreducible complexity is dead. You cannot translate information without one arrangement of matter to encode the information and a second arrangement of matter to determine the physical effect of that encoding. Without IC there is no genetic information. There is no translation of genetic information. There is no heterogeneous living cell.Upright BiPed
August 2, 2015
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It is almost a compliment for a Darwinist to say 'design arguments are both bad science and bad religion'. If anyone should know about bad science and bad religion it should be Darwinists. As far as science is concerned, there is simply no experimental falsification that Darwinists will ever accept. Every other overarching theory of science has a rigid falsification criteria that can be tested against to greater and greater levels of accuracy to potentially falsify the theory. Darwinism simply has no such falsification criteria to test against:
“On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” - Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003
No matter what contrary evidence comes along, Darwinists simply subsume it within their theory. Never is the core theoretical framework of Darwinism allowed to be challenged and/or falsified by contrary empirical findings:
"Being an evolutionist means there is no bad news. If new species appear abruptly in the fossil record, that just means evolution operates in spurts. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. If strikingly similar designs are found in distant species, that just means evolution repeats itself. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If adaptation responds to environmental signals, that just means evolution has more foresight than was thought. If major predictions of evolution are found to be false, that just means evolution is more complex than we thought." ~ Cornelius Hunter "When their expectations turn out to be false, evolutionists respond by adding more epicycles to their theory that the species arose spontaneously from chance events. But that doesn’t mean the science has confirmed evolution as Velasco suggests. True, evolutionists have remained steadfast in their certainty, but that says more about evolutionists than about the empirical science." ~ Cornelius Hunter
Darwinism simply does not have a 'hard core'
A Philosophical Question...Does Evolution have a Hard Core ? Some Concluding Food for Thought In my research on the demarcation problem, I have noticed philosophers of science attempting to balance (usually unconsciously) a consistent demarcation criteria against the the disruptive effects that it’s application might have with regard to the academic status quo (and evolution in particular)… Few philosophers of science will even touch such matters, but (perhaps unintentionally) Imre Lakatos does offer us a peek at how one might go about balancing these schizophrenic demands (in Motterlini1999: 24) “Let us call the first school militant positivism; you will understand why later on. The problem of this school was to find certain demarcation criteria similar to those I have outlined, but these also had to satisfy certain boundary conditions, as a mathematician would say. I am referring to a definite set of people to which most scientists as well as Popper and Carnap would belong. These people think that there are goodies and baddies among scientific theories, and once you have defined a demarcation criterion. you should divide all your theories between the two groups. You would end up. for example, with a goodies list including Copernicus’s (Theory1), Galileo’s (T2), Kepler’s (T3), Newton’s (T4) … and Einstein’s (T5), along with (but this is just my supposition) Darwin’s (T6). Let me just anticipate that nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific, but this is exactly what we are looking for.” So basically, the demarcation problem is a fun game philosophers enjoy playing, but when they realize the implications regarding the theory of evolution, they quickly back off… http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/cosmos/philo/hardcore_pg.htm
Lakatos, although he tipped toed around the failure of Darwinism to have a rigid demarcation criteria, he was brave enough to state that a good scientific theory will make successful predictions in science and a bad theory will generate ‘epicycle theories’ to cover up embarrassing failed predictions:
Science and Pseudoscience (transcript) - “In degenerating programmes, however, theories are fabricated only in order to accommodate known facts” – Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, , quote as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture http://www2.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/about/lakatos/scienceandpseudosciencetranscript.aspx Here’s the audio: Science and Pseudoscience – Lakatos – audio lecture http://richmedia.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/2002_LakatosScienceAndPseudoscience128.mp3 In his 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture 1[12] he also claimed that “nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific”. Almost 20 years after Lakatos's 1973 challenge to the scientificity of Darwin, in her 1991 The Ant and the Peacock, LSE lecturer and ex-colleague of Lakatos, Helena Cronin, attempted to establish that Darwinian theory was empirically scientific in respect of at least being supported by evidence of likeness in the diversity of life forms in the world, explained by descent with modification. She wrote that “our usual idea of corroboration as requiring the successful prediction of novel facts...Darwinian theory was not strong on temporally novel predictions.” ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos#Darwin.27s_theory
And even in that 'loose' demarcation criteria of science that Lakatos uses (i.e. failed predictions), it is found that Darwinism is replete with failed predictions. Dr. Hunter lists 23 fundamental (false) predictions of evolutionary theory on the following site:
Darwin's (failed) Predictions - Cornelius G. Hunter - 2015 This paper evaluates 23 fundamental (false) predictions of evolutionary theory from a wide range of different categories. The paper begins with a brief introduction to the nature of scientific predictions, and typical concerns evolutionists raise against investigating predictions of evolution. The paper next presents the individual predictions in seven categories: early evolution, evolutionary causes, molecular evolution, common descent, evolutionary phylogenies, evolutionary pathways, and behavior. Finally the conclusion summarizes these various predictions, their implications for evolution’s capacity to explain phenomena, and how they bear on evolutionist’s claims about their theory. *Introduction Why investigate evolution’s false predictions? Responses to common objections *Early evolution predictions The DNA code is not unique The cell’s fundamental molecules are universal *Evolutionary causes predictions Mutations are not adaptive Embryology and common descent Competition is greatest between neighbors *Molecular evolution predictions Protein evolution Histone proteins cannot tolerate much change The molecular clock keeps evolutionary time *Common descent predictions The pentadactyl pattern and common descent Serological tests reveal evolutionary relationships Biology is not lineage specific Similar species share similar genes MicroRNA *Evolutionary phylogenies predictions Genomic features are not sporadically distributed Gene and host phylogenies are congruent Gene phylogenies are congruent The species should form an evolutionary tree *Evolutionary pathways predictions Complex structures evolved from simpler structures Structures do not evolve before there is a need for them Functionally unconstrained DNA is not conserved Nature does not make leaps *Behavior Altruism Cell death *Conclusions What false predictions tell us about evolution https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/home Why investigate evolution’s false predictions? Excerpt: The predictions examined in this paper were selected according to several criteria. They cover a wide spectrum of evolutionary theory and are fundamental to the theory, reflecting major tenets of evolutionary thought. They were widely held by the consensus rather than reflecting one viewpoint of several competing viewpoints. Each prediction was a natural and fundamental expectation of the theory of evolution, and constituted mainstream evolutionary science. Furthermore, the selected predictions are not vague but rather are specific and can be objectively evaluated. They have been tested and evaluated and the outcome is not controversial or in question. And finally the predictions have implications for evolution’s (in)capacity to explain phenomena, as discussed in the conclusions. https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/why-investigate-evolution-s-false-predictions
Of related note: Unlike the pseudo-science of Darwinism, Intelligent Design has a rigid falsification criteria:
The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel Excerpt: "If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise." If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: "No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone." https://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness It’s (Much) Easier to Falsify Intelligent Design than Darwinian Evolution – Michael Behe, PhD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T1v_VLueGk "In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable; and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality." Karl Popper - The Two Fundamental Problems of the Theory of Knowledge (2014 edition), Routledge
Verse and Music:
1 Corinthians 3:12-14 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. Johnny Cash - Ring of Fire https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It7107ELQvY
bornagain77
August 2, 2015
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Well, gee, wow. Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" was my introduction to Intelligent Design, and I really liked the way he so very carefully presented scientific facts about biological systems and then explained some of the MANY problems with trying to get those systems to work with even 1 of the subsystems missing. My favorite remains Blood Clotting. The system only works if every single subsystem is up and running on Day 1. If any of the components is not fully functional, you don't get degraded performance. You get INSTANT death. So there is no possible path that gets you part way to blood clotting (which includes the blood UN-clotting subsystem) and still produces a viable individual on which Natural Selection can act. And of course Behe is open to anyone explaining, in clear bio-chemical terms, how any of his examples of Irreducibly Complexity are wrong. After all, he's a Scientist proposing a Theory. But as far as I know, in 10 years no one has ever produced any alternate explanations of the bio-chemistry. So why is there so much ink spilled on String Theory and Dark Matter and so little discussion of Irreducible Complexity? Makes ya kinda think some vast conspiracy is controlling the public forum...mahuna
August 2, 2015
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