Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

John Derbyshire: “I will not do my homework!”

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

[[Derbyshire continues to embarrass himself regarding ID — see his most recent remarks in The Spectator — so I thought I would remind readers of UD of a past post regarding his criticisms of ID. –WmAD]]

John Derbyshire has written some respectable books on the history of mathematics (e.g., his biography of Riemann). He has also been a snooty critic of ID. Given his snootiness, one might think that he could identify and speak intelligently on substantive problems with ID. But in fact, his knowledge of ID is shallow, as is his knowledge of the history of science and Darwin’s writings. This was brought home to me at a recent American Enterprise Institute symposium. On May 2, 2007, Derbyshire and Larry Arnhart faced off with ID proponents John West and George Gilder. The symposium was titled “Darwinism and Conservatism: Friends or Foes.” The audio and video of the conference can be found here: www.aei.org/…/event.

Early in Derbyshire’s presentation he made sure to identified ID with creationism (that’s par for the course). But I was taken aback that he would justify this identification not with an argument but simply by citing Judge Jones’s decision in Dover, saying “That’s good enough for me.” To appreciate the fatuity of this remark, imagine standing before feminists who regard abortion for any reason as a fundamental right of women and arguing against partial birth abortions merely by citing some court decision that ruled against it, saying “That’s good enough for me.” Perhaps it is good enough for YOU, but it certainly won’t be good enough for your interlocutors. In particular, the issue remains what about the decision, whether regarding abortion or ID, makes it worthy of acceptance. Derbyshire had no insight to offer here.

What really drove home for me what an intellectual lightweight he is in matters of ID — even though he’s written on the topic a fair amount in the press — is his refutation specifically of my work. He dismissed it as committing the fallacy of an unspecified denominator. The example he gave to illustrate this fallacy was of a golfer hitting a hole in one. Yes, it seems highly unlikely, but only because one hasn’t specified the denominator of the relevant probability. When one factors in all the other golfers playing golf, a hole in one becomes quite probable. So likewise, when one considers all the time and opportunities for life to evolve, a materialistic form of evolution is quite likely to have brought about all the complexity and diversity of life that we see (I’m not making this up — watch the video).

But a major emphasis of my work right from the start has been that to draw a design inference one must factor in all those opportunities that might render probable what would otherwise seem highly improbable. I specifically define these opportunities as probabilistic resources — indeed, I develop a whole formalism for probabilistic resources. Here is a passage from the preface of my book THE DESIGN INFERENCE (even the most casual reader of a book usually persues the preface — apparently Derbyshire hasn’t even done this):

Although improbability is not a sufficient condition for eliminating chance, it is a necessary condition. Four heads in a row with a fair coin is sufficiently probable as not to raise an eyebrow; four hundred heads in a row is a different story. But where is the cutoff? How small a probability is small enough to eliminate chance? The answer depends on the relevant number of opportunities for patterns and events to coincide—or what I call the relevant probabilistic resources. A toy universe with only 10 elementary particles has far fewer probabilistic resources than our own universe with 10^80. What is highly improbable and not properly attributed to chance within the toy universe may be quite probable and reasonably attributed to chance within our own universe.

Here is how I put the matter in my 2004 book THE DESIGN REVOLUTION (pp. 82-83; substitute Derbyshire’s golf example for my poker example, and this passage precisely meets his objection):

Probabilistic resources refer to the number of opportunities for an event to occur or be specified. A seemingly improbable event can become quite probable once enough probabilistic resources are factored in. On the other hand, such an event may remain improbable even after all the available probabilistic resources have been factored in. Think of trying to deal yourself a royal flush. Depending on how many hands you can deal, that outcome, which by itself is quite improbable, may remain improbable or become quite probable. If you can only deal yourself a few dozen hands, then in all likelihood you won’t see a royal flush. But if you can deal yourself millions of hands, then you’ll be quite likely to see it.

Thus, whether one is entitled to eliminate or embrace chance depends on how many opportunities chance has to succeed. It’s a point I’ve made repeatedly. Yet Derbyshire not only ignores this fact, attributing to me his fallacy of the unspecified denominator, but also unthinkingly assumes that the probabilsitic resources must, of course, be there for evolution to succeed. But that needs to be established as the conclusion of a scientific argument. It is not something one may simply presuppose.

There’s a larger issue at stake here. I’ve now seen on several occasions where critics of design give no evidence of having read anything on the topic — and they’re proud of it! I recall Everett Mendelson from Harvard speaking at a Baylor conference I organized in 2000 decrying intelligent design but spending the whole talk going after William Paley. I recall Lee Silver so embarrassing himself for lack of knowing anything about ID in a debate with me at Princeton that Wesley Elsberry chided him to “please leave debating ID advocates to the professionals” (go here for the Silver-Elsberry exchange; for the actual debate, go here). More recently, Randy Olson, of FLOCK OF DODOS fame, claimed in making this documentary on ID that he had read nothing on the topic (as a colleague at Notre Dame recently reported, privately, on a talk Randy gave there: “He then explained how he deliberately didn’t do research for his documentary, and showed some movie clips on the value of spontaneity in film making”). And then there’s Derbyshire.

These critics of ID have become so shameless that they think they can simply intuit the wrongness of ID and then criticize it based simply on those intuitions. The history of science, however, reveals that intuitions can be wrong and must themselves be held up to scrutiny. In any case, the ignorance of many of our critics is a phenomenon to be recognized and exploited. Derbyshire certainly didn’t help himself at the American Enterprise Institute by his lack of homework.

Comments
jerry wrote: "I doubt there is anything written that would convince John Derbyshire that the lottery example is not valid since we here were unable to find a clear understandable explanation" Well, I think it all boils down to this, with either the lottery example OR the golfing example: Someone wins the lottery (or gets a hole in one) because people are TRYING to win the lottery. I would say that the Darwinist who uses the lottery example to defend chance has just defended design… in particular, the design of the participantts. People buy lottery tickets because they CHOOSE to… they INTEND to. And they do so because they want to be filthy rich. If no one played the lottery, there'd be no intent, no "design" towards winning it, and you're probability would fall off dramatically (as if it's not already very low) Likewise, A hole-in-one is something that every golfer strives for… it's the whole object of the game; to get the ball into the cup with the fewest strokes. That someone eventually gets a hole-in-one reflects their "design" (read: intent) Right now I'm not playing golf. In fact, I DON'T play golf. So what are the odds that in the course of NOT playing golf, I'll hit a hole-in-one? He, he. I guess if Derbyshire wants to impress me with examples of people winning the lottery or getting a hole-in-one, he'll have to find examples of that where the person that won the lottery hadn't bought a ticket. Or the person that got the hole-in-one wasn't playing golf. Otherwise, it's just another example of design. Am I right?TRoutMac
May 16, 2007
May
05
May
16
16
2007
06:13 AM
6
06
13
AM
PDT
That is why the argument of the shooting the arrow at the wall fails because there is not just one target but zillions of targets on the wall and it would be difficult for the archer to miss one of them. I think I see the point you are missing. There are never zillions of targets. There is only just one. There may be zillions of potential targets, however. How do you differentiate between hitting a target and random shooting? You say you have an intuitive understanding of CSI. Here is something to consider: Is it possible to function in society without making assumptions in which you discriminate between design and chance? What is the process by which you make these assumptions? Now try to articulate and quantify that process and apply it to this debate.tribune7
May 16, 2007
May
05
May
16
16
2007
05:51 AM
5
05
51
AM
PDT
I posed the question about the refutation of the lottery because I was interested if anyone who has written about ID has a good response to it. I had not seen one so was actually looking for a cite or a series of discussions about it. The typical materialist response is that what you see is not the only thing you could possibly get but what just happened to happen. So while any specific rock formation is of incredibly low probability we witness zillions of incredibly low probabilistic formations all over the universe. Similarly, while the actual molecules that eventually led to life are also incredibly low probability what we witness is just the actual formation that emerged and zillions of others were possible but the one that we witnessed is the one that happened. This is supposedly what CSI is supposed to eliminate but we had a very long thread a few months ago without anyone providing an easily understandable discussion of what CSI is. I don't want to start this again but it ran for over 200 comments and I do not believe anything was resolved. I doubt there is anything written that would convince John Derbyshire that the lottery example is not valid since we here were unable to find a clear understandable explanation. Personally, I intuitively understand it and believe the lottery example nonsense but what I was looking for was well thought out arguments against it that the typical person who reads about this topic could understand. You can show that all the proteins of length 40 or 60 depending upon how you do the calculations exhaust all the matter in the universe so the assembly of anything by chance is infinitely small. The answer to this is that there is incredibly large number of functional possibilities for life and the combinations that emerged are just one of this very, very large set. Just like the specific rock formation is of incredibly low probability but some formation emerged. That is why the argument of the shooting the arrow at the wall fails because there is not just one target but zillions of targets on the wall and it would be difficult for the archer to miss one of them.jerry
May 16, 2007
May
05
May
16
16
2007
04:36 AM
4
04
36
AM
PDT
Muy interestante: On the Lottery Argument: 1] Context: Probability thinking and linked statistics are loaded with all sorts of subtleties and technicalities. They are also, very, very important -- and are often of great consequence on vital matters. A set-up for tricksters, who commonly reap a rich harvest. Thus, Darrell Huff's classic expose, "How to Lie with Statistics." And, full of traps for the unwary or those who let their attention falter for a moment. 2] Condom roulette and winnable lotteries: Consider a certain condom that fails in use 1 of 10 times on average. If someone uses such a condom 10 times in a high risk context, what are the odds he has been "protected" all 10 times? ANS: First time, 1 - .1 = 0.9. Assuming the tries are independent [and they may not be - bad technique . . .], odds of protection all ten times are therefore [0.9]^10 ~ 35%. [That's like playing so-called "Russian Roulette" with four loaded chambers out of six!] So increasing exposure does shift overall odds. The idea that if we have a million tries at a 1 in a million chance, we are "bound" to come up a winner, is strictly wrong, but is fairly close to an important point -- multiplying opportunities shortens overall odds. Thus, too, we see that a lottery with a well designed number of tickets and size of winning number -- number of digits -- is reasonably winnable. But, are all "lotteries" winnable? No, and here is why: 3] Dembski's upper probability bound: Say a certain lottery has tickets with 150 decimal digits, and that there is just one winning ticket. Then, other things being equal the odds of winning are 1 in 10 for the first digit, 1 in 10 for the second, etc, so overall it is 1 in 10^150. A lottery of this type, of this size or bigger is arguably unwinnable within the scope of the observable universe. (BTW, in binary digits, this is about 500 bits.] Here's why, as Dan Peterson summarises:
Dembski has formulated what he calls the "universal probability bound." This is a number beyond which, under any circumstances, the probability of an event occurring is so small that we can say it was not the result of chance, but of design. He calculates this number by multiplying the number of elementary particles in the known universe (10^80) by the maximum number of alterations in the quantum states of matter per second (10^45) by the number of seconds between creation and when the universe undergoes heat death or collapses back on itself (10^25). The universal probability bound thus equals 10^150, and represents all of the possible events that can ever occur in the history of the universe. If an event is less likely than 1 in 10^150, therefore, we are quite justified in saying it did not result from chance but from design. Invoking billions of years of evolution to explain improbable occurrences does not help Darwinism if the odds exceed the universal probability bound.
Of course, key informational macromolecules such as DNA and proteins etc, by far exceed this storing capacity, and we need dozens to hundreds in the compass of a cell for viable life to exist. That is why it is a very good empirical observation to note that there is a functionally specified complex information content in life that so far exceeds the reasonable probability resources of the known universe, that it is well-warranted to infer that life as we see it is designed to meet a specification. For agents routinely produce systems using intelligence, which are well beyond the Dembski bound. [This post is an example.] 4] Thermodynamics-scale odds . . . Can we beat odds like that or worse? Logically and physically yes, but there comes a point where the odds of winning are so low that we simply do not reasonably expect a win. (Cf my case study thot expt from a discussion with Pixie on that.) Thermodynamics provides many a case in point, as Dr Granville Sewell often points out. For instance, there is a possibility that every oxygen molecule by random chance in the room where you are will all rush to one end, and so you could dies of lack of oxygen. But he odds of that are so low relative to the changes of a more or less even distribution that we will never observe it in the gamut of the observed universe. [And to smuggle in the assumption that there is a vastly wider universe as a whole that reduces the overall odds, is of course speculation, not science . . .] Okay, trust that helps GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 16, 2007
May
05
May
16
16
2007
03:38 AM
3
03
38
AM
PDT
"Maybe someone should point out a good refutation of the lottery example since it is a common argument used by Darwinists with the dare that “you cannot refute it.” I think that the fallacy of the argument can be explained by this comparison: 1- Real lottery: n-digit series (let's say n=7) number and 10^n= ten million tickets sold (at the best). There is a Pr=1 that one person will win the lottery. 2- Difficult lottery: N-digit series number (let's say N=16) and ten million tickets sold. What's the prob. that one person will win? It's a depressing: Pr=10^n/10^N=10^-9= 1/1,000,000,000 And if N would be 100?kairos
May 16, 2007
May
05
May
16
16
2007
02:39 AM
2
02
39
AM
PDT
TRoutMac asks,
an event has a “one in one million” chance of happening is NOT the same (correct me if I’m wrong) as saying that it WILL happen once in one million times. Isn’t that right?
Yes, that is correct. Be aware of the following fallacy of probabilistic reasoning. What is the probability of throwing a 6 on an unloaded die? It is 1/6. If you throw the die and a 6 turns up, what is the probability of that 6? If you say 1, you have fallen for the fallacy. The probability is 1/6 no matter what the outcome. This fallacy lies at the core of many Darwinian assertions about probability and chance.Vladimir Krondan
May 16, 2007
May
05
May
16
16
2007
02:06 AM
2
02
06
AM
PDT
eric The lottery example is a good one. Take any ten lottery winners. Without specification - connection to a independently given pattern - there's no reason to presume they aren't just 10 lucky people out of many millions who bought tickets. Now let's say we find out the ten winners are all related to each other. Now we have reason to believe it might not be just the luck of the draw at work. Say we further learn that the lottery commissioner is related to all 10 of them as well. Now we really have cause to suspect design instead of luck in the result. For a more stark example say you pick up a deck of playing cards and find they're all perfectly ordered by suit and rank. Statistically that order is just as likely as any other but anyone who thinks they just happened to become ordered that way in a fair shuffle is seriously stupid. The ordering is an independently specified pattern. This is the difference between complexity and specified complexity. Design inferences are warranted when there is specification.DaveScot
May 16, 2007
May
05
May
16
16
2007
12:20 AM
12
12
20
AM
PDT
Maybe someone should point out a good refutation of the lottery example since it is a common argument used by Darwinists with the dare that “you cannot refute it.” Try looking at it this way: That someone will win a lottery is a near certainty. Life forming from dust stirred up on your walk to the store is, well, not. Why is someone winning a lottery a near certainty? Because a lottery is designed that way. In fact, if a particular lottery never has a winner you will be wise to assume -- heh heh -- it is designed that way. So to correlate the winning lottery ticket to the inevitability of the existence of life one would have to presume life to be . . . . ? Now, here's something else to ponder based on the hole in one probability. With thousands of golfers playing thousands of holes you can count on an occasional hole in one. BUT suppose every golfer had some muscle condidtion that prevented him from hitting the ball more than 10 yards? And suppose all were blind? And suppose all were facing the wrong way? Even with a trillion billion trillion golfers playing on a trillion billion trillion Sundays could you ever except a hole in one with those conditions? The existence of physical impossibility is reality. It is impossible for life to exist by chance. It is inevitable for life to exist with the right Designer.tribune7
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
09:12 PM
9
09
12
PM
PDT
Has anyone read "Why Intelligent Design Fails"? I read the chapters critiquing Dembski , but did not spent much time thinking through. It seems that the arguments presented in the book are Derbyshire's kind. I also have not read Dembski myself. Now I know he has factored in "probabilistic resources". I am a bit scared of Probability mathematics now. The last time I touched it was 1982.MatthewTan
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
08:48 PM
8
08
48
PM
PDT
Eric wrote "For example, even a 1 in 10 chance may not happen for 15 or 20 trials without arousing too much suspicion" Well, I think we're on the same page then. 'Cuz I was thinking that an event that has a probability of 1 in one million doesn't actually NEED to happen in the first million. I mean, even if you try 10 million times, it's still conceivable that this event didn't happen in any of those. And yet, it MIGHT have happened on the first try, or it might happen on the 10,000,001 try. But it seems like when the Darwinists talk about probabilities, they seem to be looking at that one in a million as some sort of "guarantee" that it'll happen AT LEAST ONCE in that million tries. Now, I may be overstating this somewhat just to illustrate my point, but that's the way it looks to me sometimes. Think of it this way… If you were able to make your one million tries ONE MILLION times (1 mil x 1 mil) what would be the odds that ONE of those sets of one million tries would actually match up with your probability estimate of one in a million? I'm thinking not very good… because now you've specified a TARGET and that changes everything. Weird. I know, I'm WAY outta my league here, and I'm sure it shows. I gave up on math a LONG time ago.TRoutMac
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
08:11 PM
8
08
11
PM
PDT
Maybe someone should point out a good refutation of the lottery example since it is a common argument used by Darwinists with the dare that "you cannot refute it." Have any of the ID proponents provided a good answer to it?jerry
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
07:31 PM
7
07
31
PM
PDT
If you have a goal of flipping 10 heads in a row, it will happen eventually.
That depends, on the probabilistic resources.
An estimate can be give to the chances (1 in 1024), but you can’t gather up 1023 of your closest friends and have them all flip 10 coins and be certain it will happen.
No, but you can calculate the probability that it will happen ;). 1024 people are equipped with 10 coins, with each coin having a "heads" side and a "tails" side. All 1024 people toss their ten coins and record how many heads and how many tails appeared amongs theuir ten coins. What is the probability that at least one of the 1024 people would record ten heads as the result of their tosses, assuming all are being honest in their recording to the acutual toss and that the chances of seeing a heads on each toss was equivalent to the chances of seeing a tails?Mung
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
07:11 PM
7
07
11
PM
PDT
"I’ve noticed that the lottery ticket rebuttal (someone has to win right? RIGHT??!!!) is often used by creditionaled persons — who one would think would know better — to rebut I.D." Yet even a lottery itself have to be design well for them to work(draw people in). If you set the odds too high (for example 1 win in 1000 years) then there will not be any winners at a reasonable time, Thus with time people see it as nothing but a scam and stop buying tickets. If the odds are too low you don't have any big time winners to advertise and draw more people into the lottery.Smidlee
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
06:25 PM
6
06
25
PM
PDT
TRoutMac - When a probability is given, it is only meaningful over a long range of measurements. For example, even a 1 in 10 chance may not happen for 15 or 20 trials without arousing too much suspicion, but the longer you go, the more in doubt you are about the original estimate of probability. As you do more and more trials, the average of all successes divided by all attempts is you experimental probability. Some people argue that theoretical probability of one time events is essentially meaningless (from a mathematical standpoint). Still, given enough time, all sorts of weird things will happen. If you have a goal of flipping 10 heads in a row, it will happen eventually. An estimate can be give to the chances (1 in 1024), but you can't gather up 1023 of your closest friends and have them all flip 10 coins and be certain it will happen. The reverse is true, of course, as well. Even if something is a 1 out of a million chance, it might happen to one person twice in a row the first two times they try it. It is unexpected, but not impossible.Eric
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
03:39 PM
3
03
39
PM
PDT
Note the similarity between this situation and the situation in Galileo's time. The folks opposing Galileo insisted that he was wrong and yet patently refused to look through his telescope and consider the evidence for themselves. Their worldview precluded Galileo's argument so there was nothing more to discuss. Today, materialism and naturalism preclude design so there is no need to bother with the specifics of the case. It is ruled out of bounds by definition. The ScubaredneckThe Scubaredneck
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
02:04 PM
2
02
04
PM
PDT
One thing that I think is confusing, and makes probabilities difficult to understand, (for me at least) is that saying that an event has a "one in one million" chance of happening is NOT the same (correct me if I'm wrong) as saying that it WILL happen once in one million times. Isn't that right? Seems to me that this expression of chance is frequently used as some sort of "proof" that the result they want would happen eventually. While I'm the furthest thing from a mathematician, this strikes me as being quite incorrect. If anyone would care to elaborate, I'd be very interested.TRoutMac
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
01:53 PM
1
01
53
PM
PDT
bornagain77: "Evolutionists don’t seem to grasp the necessity for empirical validation in science." Of course not. They demand it everywhere from IDists, but are incapable of providing any themselves. Yet they all clamor constantly that "there are mountains of evidence" for NDE!! I've yet to see any after 30 years of debating them. "scientists [they always imply by this that ID scientists are not real scientists] are happy with it" !!! Interestingly, Michael Chrichton, comments. "Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had."Borne
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
01:00 PM
1
01
00
PM
PDT
"To me, it is like a Shakespeare critic never having read any Shakespeare, only reading Cliffs Notes." How about the 'reams of evidence' canard? Search on "evolution" and "reams of evidence" and you get 3,940 hits. Read a few of them and laugh (or cry). Reminds one of pronouncements made at the Dover trial. Sadly, Judge Jones bought it.LeeBowman
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
11:49 AM
11
11
49
AM
PDT
And there's nothing new under the sun.tribune7
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
09:47 AM
9
09
47
AM
PDT
I'm tempted to praise Dr. Dembski for such a great analysis. However, it seems awfully silly coming from me, someone with hardly any education at all. It's not worth much. So, for whatever it's worth, thank you Dr. Dembski. I listened to the AEI debate and among the silly objections offered by Derbyshire, he made what I think must be an extraordinarily embarassing flip-flop. And actually, I was a little disappointed that neither West nor Gilder called him on it… During his presentation, he responded to the typical Christian testimony of how Christianity gave purpose to life, etc. by proudly challenging with the question "Yes, but is it REALLY TRUE?" And as a Christian myself, I do agree with him on the importance of that question, and yes, I do think it's "really true." Derbyshire compared Christianity with Plato's "noble lie" and really made a big, hairy deal out of the importance of the truth of a given proposition as opposed to how it made people feel or how comfortable people were with it. But then he turned right around and essentially defended Darwinism on the basis that "scientists are happy with it." Suddenly the TRUTH of the proposition didn't seem all that important to Derbyshire. Suddenly he was more concerned with how it made scientists feel, or with how comfortable scientists were with it. This was a truly amazing about-face. It revealed to me that Darwinism itself can be compared to the "noble lie"… at least from a naturalist's perspective. Obviously, as lies go, I don't think that one's so "noble" myself.TRoutMac
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
09:31 AM
9
09
31
AM
PDT
A person who accepts a court ruling as definitive in a matter of this type apparently believes in the social construction of reality. If Derbyshire approaches reality in that way, he would not want to actually read books by ID proponents. A socially constructed reality is like a theatre set. Once the stage carpenters are finished, you don't wnat anyone changing it - even if some think it a poor or inadequate venue for the drama. The show, after all, must go on! I run into people like that frequently. One characteristic is that they start telling me about the ID controversy, get just about everything wrong, and then - when I hint that I have followed it as a major beat for about five years now - abruptly change the subject.O'Leary
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
09:29 AM
9
09
29
AM
PDT
I find it interesting that most materialists (evolutionists) will hardly ever address any of the conclusive evidence for design. Yet, when they bring up some suggestive similarities as evidence, ID proponents investigate the matter with rigor. It should be noted the evidence for design keeps growing as each piece of suggestive evidence is dealt with and put in the proper ID perspective. Evolutionists don't seem to grasp the necessity for empirical validation in science.bornagain77
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
09:13 AM
9
09
13
AM
PDT
I've noticed that the lottery ticket rebuttal (someone has to win right? RIGHT??!!!) is often used by creditionaled persons -- who one would think would know better -- to rebut I.D. I picked up pretty quickly long ago that what you were getting at was an attempt to specifically address, and go beyond, discussions of simple probablilty. I don't consider myself a genius. I just consider those who can't see this to be as dumb as bricks. NOTE: for those of you who can't see what Dembski is getting at and might be reading this: "dumb as bricks" is meant figuratively, not literally.tribune7
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
08:18 AM
8
08
18
AM
PDT
I've run into the same problem repeatedly. People want to argue against "ID", then admit they've never read anything first-hand on it. Or they do something like call you "Dembsky" unwittingly showing the same. To me, it is like a Shakespeare critic never having read any Shakespeare, only reading Cliffs Notes. If you're gonna critique ID, then at very least learn the arguments first-hand. It isn't that hard, there are lots of ID resources online and in print.Atom
May 15, 2007
May
05
May
15
15
2007
08:15 AM
8
08
15
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply