Karsten Pultz: A motorhead looks at design in nature

Axel @ 9 Seversky, unlike Ed George and others, has admitted ID is a possibility. I believe many of his questions are about his own doubts starting to creep in, which is a good thing. BobRyan

Re your post #4, KF, strange isn't it that Sev is quite content to ignore compleltely, remaining totally intellectually unaffected, in fact, by the explanations given to him. And he will often blithely carry on arguing, as if his response one way or another would have been desperately wanting in any case - even though a conclusive refutation. Axel

@3 Seversky Regarding arguments by analogy, I've just found this:

"Analogical reasoning is one of the most common methods by which human beings attempt to understand the world and make decisions. We seem to have evolved with a propensity to find patterns in things and events, even when no such patterns exist". Tim Harding.

So we have evolved to find "patterns, even when no such patterns exist". That is kinda curious, because that means that: we have also evolved a system to correct those "erroneous pattern perceptions". -Yes, "evolution" has "created" brains that detect patterns. -And "evolution" has also "created" brains with a tool(s) to understand when those patterns are "fake". An unguided, unintelligent and blind process has cheated on the brains it has created and, at the same time, has helped them to escape the cheating! An unguided, unintelligent and blind process is capable of showing self-correcting features. And no evo finds this anomalous. Any input, please? The polymath maybe? Truthfreedom

LoL! @ seversky!!! The only people who whine abut analogies are the same people who don't have any to help describe their mechanisms and scenarios.

Even a motorhead should able to appreciate that the differences between an E-type and an E Coli are considerably more than their similarities.

Your uneducated opinion is neither an argument nor evidence. ET

Seversky states that

Argument by analogy. Even a motorhead should able to appreciate that the differences between an E-type and an E Coli are considerably more than their similarities.

If anything, in terms of engineering parameters, biological molecular machines in life trounce anything man has engineered, As Casey Luskin noted, "biomolecular machines have a major difference that distinguishes them from human technology: their energetic efficiency dwarfs our best accomplishments. One paper observes that molecular machines "are generally more efficient than their macroscale counterparts,"7 and another suggests that the efficiency of the bacterial flagellum "could be ~100%."8 Human engineers can only dream of creating such devices."

Bio-Mechanics - Don't the Intricacy & Ubiquity of Molecular Machines Provide Evidence for Design? by Casey Luskin - Spring 2012 Excerpt: molecular machines use components we commonly recognize in human machinery. They may have joints, gears, propellers, turnstiles, brakes, and clutches, which form motors, tweezers, vehicles, assembly lines, transportation networks, intelligent error-checking systems, and much more. But biomolecular machines have a major difference that distinguishes them from human technology: their energetic efficiency dwarfs our best accomplishments. One paper observes that molecular machines "are generally more efficient than their macroscale counterparts,"7 and another suggests that the efficiency of the bacterial flagellum "could be ~100%."8 Human engineers can only dream of creating such devices. https://salvomag.com/article/salvo20/bio-mechanics

And as Matt Baker noted, "this (flagellar) motor rotates up to five times faster than a Formula1 engine,"

The bacterial flagellar motor: brilliant evolution or intelligent design? - 7 July 2015 Excerpt: "In terms of speed and agility, flagella-powered bacteria would leave Olympic swimmers for dead. They swim hundreds of body lengths in a second, and can change direction in a fraction of that time. The source of this incredible mobility is the microscopic equivalent of an outboard motor — the bacterial flagellar motor. At one millionth of the size of a grain of sand, this motor rotates up to five times faster than a Formula1 engine, spinning the whip-like flagella and driving the bacterium forward. Most remarkably, the motor builds itself by assembling its constituent parts.,,, from a nanotechnology standpoint, it routinely outperforms our latest man-made nanomachines." Matt Baker - DPhil in biological physics at Oxford University studying the effects of low temperature on the mechanism of the bacterial flagellar motor. http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2015/07/07/4251468.htm

And as Jonathan M noted, "Indeed, so striking is the appearance of intelligent design that researchers have modelled the assembly process (of the bacterial flagellum) in view of finding inspiration for enhancing industrial operations"

The Bacterial Flagellum: A Paradigm for Design - Jonathan M. - Sept. 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, so striking is the appearance of intelligent design that researchers have modelled the assembly process (of the bacterial flagellum) in view of finding inspiration for enhancing industrial operations (McAuley et al.). Not only does the flagellum manifestly exhibit engineering principles, but the engineering involved is far superior to humanity’s best achievements. The flagellum exhibits irreducible complexity in spades. In all of our experience of cause-and-effect, we know that phenomena of this kind are uniformly associated with only one type of cause – one category of explanation – and that is intelligent mind. Intelligent design succeeds at precisely the point at which evolutionary explanations break down. http://www.scribd.com/doc/106728402/The-Bacterial-Flagellum

Even wikipedia itself, which is notoriously biased against Intelligent Design, admits that,,,

Molecular Machines - Wikipedia Excerpt: A wide variety of artificial molecular machines (AMMs) have been synthesized by chemists which are rather simple and small compared to biological molecular machines.[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine#Artificial

And also admits that,

Molecular Machines - Wikipedia Excerpt: These machines and their nanoscale dynamics are far more complex than any molecular machines that have yet been artificially constructed.[48] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_machine#Biological

Thus contrary to Seversky's assertion, the only reason the 'analogy' between man-made machines and biological machines breaks down is because biological machines are far more sophisticated than anything man has built, As James Barham noted in his observation of where the 'analogy' breaks down, "Many things are wrong with this picture, but one of the problems that needs to be discussed more openly is the fact that in this “factory,” many if not most of the “machines” are themselves constantly turning over — being assembled when and where they are needed, and disassembled afterwards. The mitotic spindle…is one of the best-known examples, but there are many others. Funny sort of “factory” that, with the “machinery” itself popping in and out of existence as needed!,,,,"

Problems with the Metaphor of a Cell as "Machine" - July 2012 Excerpt: Too often, we envision the cell as a "factory" containing a fixed complement of "machinery" operating according to "instructions" (or "software" or "blueprints") contained in the genome and spitting out the "gene products" (proteins) that sustain life. Many things are wrong with this picture, but one of the problems that needs to be discussed more openly is the fact that in this "factory," many if not most of the "machines" are themselves constantly turning over -- being assembled when and where they are needed, and disassembled afterwards. The mitotic spindle...is one of the best-known examples, but there are many others. Funny sort of "factory" that, with the "machinery" itself popping in and out of existence as needed!,,, - James Barham http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/problems_with_t062691.html

bornagain77

Seversky @ 3 "...appreciate that the differences between an E-type and an E Coli are considerably more than their similarities." Only due to humans giving them value. You, as an individual, chose to type words to express your thoughts. For animals, written language has no importance. To be able to write does require more than the brain telling us, which letters to use. Our minds search for the best way to put our distinct thoughts into form. BobRyan

Sev, kindly explain to us the flagellum, why it is a dismissible analogy to call it a motor, and how per observation it arose step by step through blind chance and mechanical necessity. Then, similarly account for the self-replication facility of the cell. Finally, kindly explain to us how the genetic code and particularly the step by step assembly instructions for protein chains are mere dismissible analogies. KF kairosfocus

Argument by analogy. Even a motorhead should able to appreciate that the differences between an E-type and an E Coli are considerably more than their similarities. Although in the case of Jeremy Clarkson,,,,, Seversky

Try the von Neumann kinematic self replicator for size. kairosfocus

Oh, oh, oh, I know, I know- machinery cannot reproduce. If it could those mechanics couldn't say "design". (never mind the fact that basic reproduction is itself, IC) ET