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Karsten Pultz on the recent Behe-Swamidass debate

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Our Danish correspondent Karsten Pultz recently watched a debate between Michael Behe and Joshua Swamidass fifteen years after the Dover uproar. He sends this report:


I watched with great interest the recent debate between Dr. Behe and Dr. Swamidass.  The format was excellent for exposing the total lack of any real responses to Behe’s irreducible complexity argument.

After watching the entire debate I decided to comment. But after a while searching my brain for topics to comment on, I soon realized that I couldn’t remember a word. Of course Behe’s precise and coherent presentation of irreducible complexity (IC) I remembered, but what puzzled me was that I couldn’t recall a single interesting sentence uttered by Dr. Swamidass. After watching the debate a second time (this time armed with pen and paper) I discovered the problem: There was actually nothing worth remembering.

Around the 25 min. mark the moderator Pat Flynn asked Swamidass to address the argument of irreducible complexity (IC) which Behe just presented. He was specifically asked to come up with empirical evidence refuting IC. Swamidass did not fulfill this simple request, he just babbled away, and managed to derail the conversation several times by moving to theological questions instead of just producing the evidence-based arguments against IC that the moderator, Behe, and the rest of us were waiting for.

In my view, Swamidass excels as an expert in smokescreens; he can talk endlessly without nailing down tangible and memorable points. Although pressured more than once by Behe to deliver at least a single counter argument to IC, he did not come up with anything containing even a whiff of substance. Paradoxically, Swamidass insists that Behe is the one creating confusion by the way he uses words and presents definitions. Again this critique was not accompanied by concrete examples but was broadened out to cover everything and nothing.

While failing to provide real arguments, Dr. Swamidass instead spent a considerable amount of energy boosting his own authority. Several times he appealed, not just to authority, but in a cringeworthy way to his own authority using phrases like I’m a scientist, I’m a biologist, I’m a mathematical biologist, as if fearing the viewers had forgotten his qualifications. In the last part of the debate he even tried to interrupt Behe by impolitely and irrelevantly listing all his own credentials. Now that was indeed a weird moment!

I will grant Dr. Swamidass that he almost delivered one coherent argument against IC, namely exaptations (around 40 minutes in). Swamidass stated in response to Behe’s IC: You have to show that each part couldn’t have evolved individually and then come together later, you haven’t done that with the mousetrap and that’s like a major logical gap!  I find that absolutely hilarious because the only real logical gap here is the evolutionary evidence-free “explanation,” that preexisting parts miraculously could find together in a new functional system. Not only did Swamidass fail to deliver any evidence for this fantasy scenario, he also switched the burden of proof to the ID-side insisting that Behe should prove a negative (you have to show that each part couldn’t have evolved individually).

In his book, Why Evolution Is True, Jerry Coyne makes a similar outrageous statement that the onus is not on the evolutionary biologists to sketch out a precise step by step scenario documenting exactly how a complex character evolved. Apparently it is the standard position that evolutionists don’t have to deliver evidence to support their claims, they expect the ID proponents to show that evolution didn’t take place, forcing them to prove a negative, which of course is outrageously unscientific and is exactly what you could call a logical gap.


Readers?

Comments
Chuck, your willful ignorance is not an argument. Judge Jones doesn't know anything about science. Judge Jones was fooled by lies and bluffs. Read my comment @ 8 and stop being so damn obtuseET
November 12, 2020
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Arrington #7 That is exactly my point, Judge Jones concluded that ID is not science. More importantly, the relevant scientific community has concluded that ID is not science. Jones' Memorandum Opinion (https://ncse.ngo/files/pub/legal/kitzmiller/highlights/2005-12-20_Kitzmiller_decision.pdf) which, as a lawyer, I'm sure you've reviewed, is an exemplar of clarity and erudition. It is one of the most well thought-out decisions I've ever read. The defendants in Dover declined to appeal. To my knowledge, introduction of ID in science curricula has not been litigated in the 15 years subsequent to Dover. Although review of the trial transcript of Behe's testimony is the best source of the problems Behe's testimony created, a good synopsis of Behe's problematic appearance on the stand is found at: https://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2008/07/06/kitzmiller-v-dover-michael-behes-testimony/ An exceptional law review discussion of the case is found at: https://scholarship.law.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2038&context=mlr Reprise of the Dover trial, along with Behe's latest book is, to borrow a phrase from Laurence Peter (The Peter Principle), "the transference of bones from one grave to the next."chuckdarwin
November 12, 2020
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Earth to chuck- Dr. Behe proves that Judge Jones was clueless and accepted lies and bluffs as evudence. He concludes:
The Court’s reasoning in section E-4 is premised on: a cramped view of science; the conflation of intelligent design with creationism; an incapacity to distinguish the implications of a theory from the theory itself; a failure to differentiate evolution from Darwinism; and strawman arguments against ID. The Court has accepted the most tendentious and shopworn excuses for Darwinism with great charity and impatiently dismissed evidence-based arguments for design. All of that is regrettable, but in the end does not impact the realities of biology, which are not amenable to adjudication. On the day after the judge’s opinion, December 21, 2005, as before, the cell is run by amazingly complex, functional machinery that in any other context would immediately be recognized as designed. On December 21, 2005, as before, there are no non-design explanations for the molecular machinery of life, only wishful speculations and Just-So stories.
Evolutionists are liars and fraudsET
November 12, 2020
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Chuck, Behe did not "lose" the case for ID at Dover for the simple reason that scientific theories are not adjudicated in courts. It is odd that you would think they are.Barry Arrington
November 12, 2020
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Sev, "Public debates are a form of entertainment, nothing more. They resolve nothing, they prove nothing." Said every person whose team had just been hammered in a public debate. The assertion is pure nonsense. I will grant that some debates are not useful. This one was very useful. It proved beyond serious doubt that the other side has no answer to IC, at least none that one of their leading proponents can articulate.Barry Arrington
November 12, 2020
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"... fifteen years after the Dover uproar." You mean the "uproar" where Behe almost single-handedly managed to lose the case for "Intelligent Design?"chuckdarwin
November 12, 2020
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LoL! @ seversky- Of course public debates do something. They show which person is aware and which person is full of nonsense.
Behe originally claimed that there were structures or systems in biology for which there were no conceivable evolutionary precursors and which were therefore irreducibly complex.
IC has nothing to do with mere evolution. Your equivocation is duly noted.
When biologists showed that there were at least conceivable evolutionary origins to his examples, his claim was refuted.
There isn't any "when". You are lying. No one has ever shown there to be any possible path for blind and mindless processes to produce any bacterial flagellum. seversky is a liar- as are all evolutionists who spew such lies. No one on this planet has even come close to refuting Dr. Behe's claims. seversky is a liar.ET
November 12, 2020
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History: Darwin proposed "evolution by natural selection" as a sufficient mechanism to explain all biodiversity -- without any appreciation of epigenetics or mutations or cellular biology, and only a superficial appreciation of the fossil record (no criticism: nobody did) -- so he is canonized. Josh Swamidass: Behe challenged evolution by natural selection with "irreducible complexity" -- without a complete grasp of all the evolutionary mechanisms and all the possible exaptionary components in play (no criticism: nobody does) -- so he is denied scientific standing. me: huh.dougpeters
November 11, 2020
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Public debates are a form of entertainment, nothing more. They resolve nothing, they prove nothing. Behe originally claimed that there were structures or systems in biology for which there were no conceivable evolutionary precursors and which were therefore irreducibly complex. When biologists showed that there were at least conceivable evolutionary origins to his examples, his claim was refuted. If Behe wants to re-assert his claim of irreducible complexity then the burden of proof rests with him, it is not for Swamidass to disprove it.Seversky
November 11, 2020
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I knew that I wasn't the only person to see through Joshua's nonsense and diversionary tactics. Darwin set the stage with the very criteria Dr. Behe uses:
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." [Darwin 1859, pg. 175].
Numerous, successive, slight modifications. That was Darwin's designer mimic, ie design without a designer. Dennett called it his "dangerous idea". The point is that is the standard of evidence Darwin required for his mechanistic idea. "What can asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" Christopher Hitchens Swamidass and his motely crew have no intention of meeting that. Heck Nathan Lents writes a book titled "Human Errors" and yet criticizes Dr. Behe for "Darwin Devolves", even though it is basically the same subject. They just want to fight with an IDist to try to impress their minions. And then they ramble on never really addressing the point at hand. But there's so much verbiage that it fools people into thinking there must have been something there. Pathetic, actuallyET
November 11, 2020
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