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Keep Your Eye on the Cause Ball

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In his post below Clive Hayden quotes Dr. Bruce Gordon: “spontaneous creation” minus “any cause illustrates the lack of an explanation rather than scientific comprehension.”

nikkipolya objects: “The popular interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is also anything but comprehensible. Yet, it correctly explains most of the phenomena at the atomic level. Comprehensibility is a problem that only exists in the brain. You are trying to correlate two unrelated problems.”

nikkipolya does not appear to understand Gordon’s basic point. The equations of quantum mechanics describe certain regularities (i.e., “laws”) of sub-atomic phenomena. In no sense do the equations of quantum mechanics explain how or why those regularities came into existence in the first place

Thus, at its base, nikkipolya’ objection depends on an equivocation on the word “explain.” “Explain” can mean to describe how something came into being and it can also mean to describe why something came into being. Nikkipolya uses the word in the former sense, while Gordon is using it in the latter.

Here is a rough analogy: Say we can go back in time and videotape Leonardo da Vinci painting the Mona Lisa. We could then analyze that videotape and write a description of everything Leonardo did to create the painting. That description would read something like this: “The painter stretched a canvas on a frame. The then painter dabbed his brush into the blue paint and applied it in four light downward strokes to sector 15 of the canvas. The painter then dapped his brush in green paint and applied two heavy horizontal strokes in sector 23 of the canvas, and so on.” Our detailed account of the painting process would describe how the painting came into being. It would not explain why the painting came into existence (i.e., Leonardo needed to make a living and he was commissioned to paint a portrait and he decided to do so).

In terms of Aristotelian causation, our account of the painting is an account of the material and efficient causes of the painting. It is not an account of the final cause of the painting.

Hawkings runs off the rails when he forgets the first principles of science laid down by Francis Bacon in 1605 when he noted that science takes account of only material and efficient causes. It does not take account of final or formal causes.

Comments
Don't they work for God? - Dembski once called them "surrogate intelligences." Do they have free will, or are they just vehicles for God's will. And if so, why does God need them?Aleta
October 6, 2010
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I'll go out on a limb and declare myself the official "angels did it" faction.Collin
October 6, 2010
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Collin @ 56: Good question. I am very interested in the answer. Are there any ID supporters here who have a genuine and serious belief that the designer is something other than God?zeroseven
October 6, 2010
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Are there any ID-ists who believe that the designer was not God? I mean that they have a positive belief that it was not God, not that it "might" not be God, but that it was probably aliens or angels or something?Collin
October 6, 2010
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Aleta, even if we expand to the entire world, 'The consensus' believes in God: World Population Percentages by Religious Group religious 86%, non-religious and anti-religious 14%. Religious Groups monotheists 54%, reincarnationists 20%, ethno religions 10% Monotheists Christians 33%, Muslims 21% Reincarnationists Hindu 13%, Buddhist 6% Ethno Religions Chinese 6.3%, tribal 4% Non-religious groups Non-religious and agnostic 11.9%, anti-religious and atheist 2.3% http://richleebruce.com/mystat.htmlbornagain77
October 6, 2010
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Aleta, though I hate the 'consensus card' that you have played here:.
'1) I, and many other people, feel like we too have rigorously investigated metaphysical and spiritual matters, and have come to different conclusions than you.' "2) If the evidence was really overwhelming for the “theistic position for Almighty God both creating and sustaining this universe,” there wouldn’t be so many people that don’t accept that position. If lots of people see flaws in the position, and more appealing alternatives, then there must be something about it that is not overwhelming."
since you played it, I will also play a 'consensus card': (CNSNews.com) May 06, 2010 - Just two weeks after a federal judge in Madison, Wis., ruled that the annual National Day of Prayer is unconstitutional, 92 percent of Americans told the USA Today/Gallup poll that they believe in God and only 5 percent said they oppose the National Day of Prayer. http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/65396 Thus using your very rules of reason that truth is decided by finding a consensus of those who agree with us (or at least finding a consensus that disagrees with your point of view) then since a majority of adults who have investigated these matters believe in God and agree with my conclusion, then therefore you ought to believe in God! :) ,,, But why do I feel that consensus will not matter this time for you?bornagain77
October 6, 2010
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Aleta: From Tao Te King (Chapter 21): "The grandest forms of active force From Tao come, their only source. Who can of Tao the nature tell? Our sight it flies, our touch as well. Eluding sight, eluding touch, The forms of things all in it crouch; Eluding touch, eluding sight, There are their semblances, all right. Profound it is, dark and obscure; Things' essences all there endure. Those essences the truth enfold Of what, when seen, shall then be told. Now it is so; 'twas so of old. Its name--what passes not away; So, in their beautiful array, Things form and never know decay. How know I that it is so with all the beauties of existing things? By this (nature of the Tao). "gpuccio
October 6, 2010
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Aleta: Just a thought. Your concept of the Tao has many of the characteristics of my concept of a transcendent God. You say: For instance, as I and others here at times have explained, one such view is the Taoist notion of an unknowable and undifferentiated Oneness – the Tao, through which and out of which the two complementary forces of yin and yang – the passive and the active, bring the known universe into existence. Is the Tao nothing or something? This is an unanswerable, and in fact meaningless question: the Tao comes before somethingness and nothingness. You are in fact describing the Tao as the origin of reality, its "creator". And even if you say that "Is the Tao nothing or something" is an unanswerable question, I would argue that such a statement could be considered correct even for a transcendent God: in the sense that it is a well known concept in many religious traditions that we must not really "speak" of the transcendent Absolute, because no human category really applies to It. Even existence is after all a human category. So, while it is correct, and often useful, for us humans to wonder if God exists, in the ultimate sense I would agree that he is real "before somethingness and nothingness" came into existence from Him. So, I would consider your position (and the taoistic position in general, with all its variants) as a form of theism. I understand that there may be many substantial differences if we extend the concept of the existence of an Eternal, Transcendent Principle to Its possible manifestation in reality. But again I would encourage you to consider, as a possible subject of discussion, the following: if everything thaty exists, including consciousness, perception and intelligence, came from such an Eternal, Transcendent Principle, and even accepting that, in Its fully transcendent form, that Principle cannot be appropriately described by any limited human category, don't you think that in some way, in the process through which everything that exists comes into existence, that original Principle must in some way have generated what we humanly call consciousness, intelligence and information, and partaken of those things? Because, even if we believe in an absolute origin which is transcendent (be it the Tao or God), and I would say that you do have defined the Tao as a transcendent origin with your own words, we still have to "explain" in some way the definite immanent principles which we do observe in reality: of which consciousness, intelligence and information are certainly a fundamental example.gpuccio
October 5, 2010
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UB, Aleta: UB, I appreciate your #38, which is very interesting. I would say that I agree with you, with the only further concept that IMO all life, consciousness and information is possible because a universal life, consciousness and oinformatioon exists, and that is God's. To Aleta I would say that I agree with her about the absolute right of each individual to cherish his own worldview. I have often argued that I respect all sincere worldviews. That's not only a statement of "good feelings". The reason why I respect other's worldviews is that I really believe that the only way anyone can pursue truth is to build his own sincere map of the world, and to test it in his own personal life. That's the only way to truth. And, as for me truth and God are not different, that's IMO also the only way to God. So, Aleta, I was offering here my suggestion of God as fundamental perceiver not as a religious belief, which you are absolutely free noit to share, but as a possible cognitive model in our discussion, which I hope you can at least take into consideration. UB's model is extremely interesting, but again it does not explain how consciousness, perception and information could arise "spontaneously" in a truly non conscious reality, where perception and information never existed and, IMHO, never would come into existence. Unless you really believe in the bizarre myth of "emergent properties"...gpuccio
October 5, 2010
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I didn't use the word "blind", ba. I think we all have knowledge, experiences, intuitions, feelings, etc. which help support those things we take on faith. But it is important to know what is taken on faith and what is more empirically supported. And it is an open question as to whether your investigation has been rigorous or not, and to what extent it has been truly an investigation rather than a search for things that support your faith. Two things to consider: 1) I, and many other people, feel like we too have rigorously investigated metaphysical and spiritual matters, and have come to different conclusions than you. 2) If the evidence was really overwhelming for the "theistic position for Almighty God both creating and sustaining this universe," there wouldn't be so many people that don't accept that position. If lots of people see flaws in the position, and more appealing alternatives, then there must be something about it that is not overwhelming.Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Aleta my certainty comes from my rigorous investigation of these matters, not from my 'blind' faith.bornagain77
October 5, 2010
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Proselytizing and witnessing doesn't really advance the discussion, ba. I don't believe in God, even of the generic eternal being variety, and I certainly don't believe in a divine Jesus on whom my salvation depends, and especially in respect to the latter, neither do billions of religious people all over the world. The absolute certainty that you continually display flows from your faith, but for those who don't believe that certainty does not pertain. Other people have other beliefs, and you ought to at least try to understand, and live with, those other beliefs just as you would have others understand and live with yours. That doesn't mean that either of us needs to believe what the other does, or should try to convert the other, but it does mean that no one - this is my opinion, should think that they have the one true religion, and everyone else is wrong.Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Cabal @33, What I was trying to say was that the random variable is one which goes against laws- and a law like view of creation. In the case of a car crash it is the sign of a "malfunction" in the "intended" design plan. If all things were acting based on some predictable laws, then the car crash would seemingly be in violation of those laws IF it was truly random. You see a law is by its very nature not random- what is what a law is- something that is predictable. Anything beyond that is some form of quantum ratio probability reasoning- which will NOT result in complete predictability - and hence it cannot claim the domain of a primal explanation of causality and creation. However I think that if one take the ID perspective we can fit the car crash within a design framework and pretty easily see what forces were at work.Frost122585
October 5, 2010
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Aleta, this time instead listing the overwhelming evidence supporting the Theistic position for Almighty God both creating and sustaining this universe, this time I just want to impress upon you that though God is evidently, and clearly, far more powerful than we can imagine, yet He has humbled Himself from His awesome power in order to have a personal relationship with us, and deals with us much more intamately, at this present time, through His grace He has wrought through Christ. The relationship, yes the eternal personal relationship, that God humbly offers to us through Christ is truly a gift greater than we can anything we can possibly imagine right now, but this priceless gift of a eternal loving relationship with Almighty God will do you no good unless you accept this priceless gift. Shoot Aleta I can tell you with 100% certainty that the priceless gift is real from little personal miracles I've seen in my life, but alas you cannot attain that certainty I have unless you open you heart and give Him a chance in your life,,, Something about 'Seek and you shall find', or maybe more like, 'I stand at the door and knock'. Aleta, Here is one story of one 'little miracle' that I've seen, Strange But True https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfNTNocmRjZGtkdg&hl=en --------- Does God Exist? Finding a Good God in an Evil World http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4007708bornagain77
October 5, 2010
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Hi upright - I'm sure it's OK that we agree on some things and not on others - the things you wrote seemed reasonable irrespective of where stands on the existence of God, even though you might go on to make theistic connections, as gpuccio did.Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Ba, you quote Gordon as writing the following. Since Gordon is not here to discuss this, I will redirect my response to you. Gordon writes, "This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world." How in the world (which is an appropriate phrase, because where else can we find our knowledge) does he know this? It may very well be that transcendental reality is a Platonic realm of mathematical and logical realities that in fact are causally active, and can impress themselves upon a material reality. We really can't know, and to state categorically that transcendental reality can or cannot be such and such is to merely elevate our own worldview to the status of a universal truth. Gordon writes, "Neither is it the case that “nothing” is unstable, as Mr. Hawking and others maintain. Absolute nothing cannot have mathematical relationships predicated on it, not even quantum gravitational ones." We really don't know where "nothing" really exists, or can exist, although there may be aspects of transcendental reality that appears as nothing to the material universe but are in fact something in the transcendental realm itself. The broader, and recurring issue here, is that we can't take our logical, abstract categories and expect them to completely apply to all aspects of a world which, even in the part that we can experience, has proven to be beyond our imagination. To many people throughout history, the deepest explanations of the universe are mystical ones which embrace fundamental paradoxes. For instance, as I and others here at times have explained, one such view is the Taoist notion of an unknowable and undifferentiated Oneness - the Tao, through which and out of which the two complementary forces of yin and yang - the passive and the active, bring the known universe into existence. Is the Tao nothing or something? This is an unanswerable, and in fact meaningless question: the Tao comes before somethingness and nothingness. I know, ba, that you dismiss this kind of talk, but it, and the extended philosphy which accompanies it, does just as good of a job of explaining things as a theisic explanation. And, in my opinion, it is more realistic in terms of us recognizing the limits of our own own ability to know. Gordon then writes, "Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.” No, scientific rationality does not rest on any particular metaphysic: irrespective of why we think the universe is as it is, or why we think we are as we are, we can do science by accepting the world as we find. Believing that some being necessarily brought the universe into existence is not a prerequisite for scientific rationality - a fact amply demonstrated by the cross-cultural consensus that is built by the world-wide scientific community.Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Aleta, I am not so sure you (as an atheist) would appreciate the conclusions that naturally flow from the perspective I gave above. :)Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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BA, I enjoy reading your perspective, and admire the resource you provide to this forum. I will read your attached link.Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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UB, all will say is what I can verify with certainty. Photons are known to travel as uncollapsed waves in the universe. As well I can say this with certainty, Photons will universally collapse to each unique point of observation in the universe giving a 'unique point of centrality' in the universe for each unique point of observation in the universe. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/dr-bruce-gordons-article-on-stephen-hawking/#comment-365083 note: Wheeler’s Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles “have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy,” so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory.bornagain77
October 5, 2010
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Good post, Upright. I agree that information involves representations of reality, and that even animals can have information even though they don't have verbal or written symbol systems. And to gpuccio - yes, I assumed that for a theist the perception of God would make information something that always existed: the number of grains of sand exists because God perceives, and knows, this number even though we can't. Not being a theist, I don't find this very useful: I prefer Upright's discussion of information as a representation of some kind in a living thing as a response to perception.Aleta
October 5, 2010
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May I also say, I have a great repsect for many of the regs here, GP, StephB, BA, Null, VJ, CY and many others. I would Appreciate any feedback.Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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Hello again Aleta, Thanks for the question. If there s any confusion perhaps I can help clarify it with a couple of very simple observations. I may very well be the only one here that views this as I do, but I will answer as best I can. You say “I am confused: if information depends upon perception, but existed long before mankind, then who or what was doing the perceiving that produced the correlation that is necessary for information?” I am a human, so I have to answer that question through the eyes of a human being. Yet although I am a human being, I am able to recognize some patterns of reality that must exist outside of me being a human being. For instance, if I perceive something (a dog walking across the yard) that does not mean that I then have a dog in my head, walking across a yard in my head. Even though we may not know how the system actually works, it seems to me logically obvious that I have some neural representation correlated to what I saw. This suggests to me that perception must require some system of symbolic chemical representation in order to create the correlation that defines what information is (a dog just walked across my yard). If that is the case for me as a human, then I am bound by the same logic that it is the case for other living things as well. If an antelope perceives a wolf passing in the valley below, I must assume the antelope doesn’t then have a wolf in its head either. Despite the various theories or controversies there may be regarding the extent to which other life forms process the information gained through sensory perception, it seems rather obvious that the same general pattern of perception (followed by symbolic representation) must exist in some form throughout the living kingdom. So to answer your question, I would say that the life forms that had the capacity to sense and perceive their surroundings were producing information prior to the onset of mankind. They were producing symbolic representations correlated to their environment, and those correlations were providing them information. If there was no life, there would be no information. Inanimate matter cannot perceive itself. The real question for me is this: How did information come to be recorded into matter, causing life?Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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About randomness: I would say that there are two different kinds of randomness. The randomness we directly experience (that of a flipping coin or similar systems) is in no way a "violation" of necessity, but just an output which cannot be described realistically in terms of necessity because too many variable are implied. I don't think anybody really believes that such randomness violates any order: indeed, the simple fact that these rendom events anyway obey to mathemathical laws of probability could be a strong argument in favour of a mathematically ordered reality. The second kind of radnomness is that imlied in quantum mechanics, the essentail randomness which gets measured results from the values of the wave function through a probabilistic law. In this case, the probabilistic interpretation seems to be integral part of reality, and has nothing to do with hidden variables (at least according to most interpretations). But QM interpretation is really an open problem. What is really a "violation" of what we observe in unguided events is complex pseudorandomness with a meaning or function. That is the certain mark of design.gpuccio
October 5, 2010
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Aleta: I apologize for sub-threading :) You say: I am confused: if information depends upon perception, but existed long before mankind, then who or what was doing the perceiving that produced the correlation that is necessary for information? Why not God's consciousness? The belief that humans are the only conscious intelligent agents in reality is a belief, but not a universal one. I would say that most people have believed for centuries, and probably still believe, differently. It's a rather fundamental choice in our worldview, and I hope that, whatever modern priests of scientism may say, it remains open.gpuccio
October 5, 2010
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Collin, Matthew 10:30 – ”But the very hairs of your head are numbered.” appropriate! also fine tuning of mass density equals 1 in 10^60 = approx. 1 grain of sand! MercyMe Beautiful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hth7GzAoXos caption of song: You were made in His likeness. He looks down on you with love. You are treasured. You are sacred. You are His. You're beautiful!bornagain77
October 5, 2010
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Hi upright - no need to apologize - threads often have multiple sub-threads. Anyway, you write, "The correlation through perception is what must exist for the production of information. Humans have nothing to do with it. In other words, the point is not about humanity, but about the nature of information (which existed long before mankind ever walked on this planet).[/quote] I am confused: if information depends upon perception, but existed long before mankind, then who or what was doing the perceiving that produced the correlation that is necessary for information?Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Frost122585,
It strikes me that if something is random than at some level it goes against natural laws of order- and that perhaps those random events are not random but the result of a deeper intelligent causation.
Care to relate that to car accidents?Cabal
October 5, 2010
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I did not "mistake [your] bluntness with rudeness" - I can recognize rudeness when I see it.Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Collin,
Can something exist without an observer?
Will a cat or a monkey do as an observer, or must it be mankind?Cabal
October 5, 2010
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Aleta, I don't think the grains of sand exist unless someone knows it. I'll take a leaf from BA's book: Matthew 10:30 --"But the very hairs of your head are numbered." Can something exist without an observer? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind%E2%80%93body_problemCollin
October 5, 2010
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