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Keep Your Eye on the Cause Ball

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In his post below Clive Hayden quotes Dr. Bruce Gordon: “spontaneous creation” minus “any cause illustrates the lack of an explanation rather than scientific comprehension.”

nikkipolya objects: “The popular interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is also anything but comprehensible. Yet, it correctly explains most of the phenomena at the atomic level. Comprehensibility is a problem that only exists in the brain. You are trying to correlate two unrelated problems.”

nikkipolya does not appear to understand Gordon’s basic point. The equations of quantum mechanics describe certain regularities (i.e., “laws”) of sub-atomic phenomena. In no sense do the equations of quantum mechanics explain how or why those regularities came into existence in the first place

Thus, at its base, nikkipolya’ objection depends on an equivocation on the word “explain.” “Explain” can mean to describe how something came into being and it can also mean to describe why something came into being. Nikkipolya uses the word in the former sense, while Gordon is using it in the latter.

Here is a rough analogy: Say we can go back in time and videotape Leonardo da Vinci painting the Mona Lisa. We could then analyze that videotape and write a description of everything Leonardo did to create the painting. That description would read something like this: “The painter stretched a canvas on a frame. The then painter dabbed his brush into the blue paint and applied it in four light downward strokes to sector 15 of the canvas. The painter then dapped his brush in green paint and applied two heavy horizontal strokes in sector 23 of the canvas, and so on.” Our detailed account of the painting process would describe how the painting came into being. It would not explain why the painting came into existence (i.e., Leonardo needed to make a living and he was commissioned to paint a portrait and he decided to do so).

In terms of Aristotelian causation, our account of the painting is an account of the material and efficient causes of the painting. It is not an account of the final cause of the painting.

Hawkings runs off the rails when he forgets the first principles of science laid down by Francis Bacon in 1605 when he noted that science takes account of only material and efficient causes. It does not take account of final or formal causes.

Comments
BA and Aleta, I apologize for interruping your conversation.Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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Aleta #26 "So if that’s what you mean, fine, but it doesn’t seem like a very useful point. It would really slow things down to preface everything we say with the disclaimer that what we say is based on the world as perceived by human beings." The correlation through perception is what must exist for the production of information. Humans have nothing to do with it. In other words, the point is not about humanity, but about the nature of information (which existed long before mankind ever walked on this planet).Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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#24 "The number of grains exists whether we count them or not." The grains of sand exist whether we count them or not, but not the number. If you feel otherwise, then again, where does that number exist?Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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Yes, I can see that "information" about the number of grains depends on a symbol system and upon there being someone to perceive: information is about something that we have about the world. The world itself does not have information: the world just is. All information is about how we perceive the world: if there were no sentient beings, the color red would be a meaningless concept, but the wave lengths of light would still exist. So if that's what you mean, fine, but it doesn't seem like a very useful point. It would really slow things down to preface everything we say with the disclaimer that what we say is based on the world as perceived by human beings.Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Aleta, In Claude Shannon's famous paper of Information Theory, he sets out what the definition of "meaningful information" is (meaningful, as in the number of grains of sand on a beach). He says "Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with certain physical or conceptual entities." That correlation is what must exist before the information regarding the number of grains of sand on a beach can exist. That correlation cannot exist without perception bringing it into existence.Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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Hmmm. And since there is no way to perceive, much less count, the number of grains, what are we to say? That we don't know the number, or that there is no number? I'm sure almost everyone would say the former. The number of grains exists whether we count them or not. The word or symbol for that number doesn't exist until we employ it. The difference is between the reality and our ability to symbolize it.Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Aleta, The day I see a atheist be fair with the evidence, perhaps then my years of dealing with the violent abuse of logic from them will heal a bit, and afford me the luxury to have more refined 'manners' so as to not be so jaded as to your position, or any other atheists (strong agnostics) position. Until then I am rather fond of stating the truth of the matter rather bluntly. I'm sorry if you mistake my bluntness with rudeness but I prefer clarity of point over flowery language when dealing with egregious errors of logic.bornagain77
October 5, 2010
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Aleta, The grains of sand exist themselves, but the number that decribes how many grains of sand there are, however, does not exist. That piece of information would have to be perceived (in some fashion) before it could exist. If you suggest otherwise, then please tell me where it exist?Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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I see. I'll buy that. I'll respond tonight. However, it is hard to want to discuss something with someone who writes, "I felt you might want to either admit your error of logic in the matter or, more likely, maybe offer up some meaningless rationalizations so as to at least justify your incoherent position to yourself." I think you could stand to have some manners - it makes discussion much more civil.Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Aleta, UB is quite big enough to take care of himself on this matter,, As for myself, since this post is about final and formal causes, I was specifically addressing your stated position for causal metaphysics in quoting the Gordon article, at least as I have gathhered your metaphysical position to be. Since I agree with Dr. Gordon's, well elucidated, quote 100% and since it directly contradicts your position, I felt you might want to either admit your error of logic in the matter or, more likely, maybe offer up some meaningless rationalizations so as to at least justify your incoherent position to yourself.bornagain77
October 5, 2010
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ba, doesn't seem that your post was in response to what I said to Upright Biped at all. Do you think the number of grains of sands on the beach exists even if there has never been anyone around to perceive them, or not?Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Aleta, I think this quote from the Gordon article is exactly what the Dr. ordered to counter your metaphysical point of view: GORDON: Hawking irrational arguments "This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world. Neither is it the case that "nothing" is unstable, as Mr. Hawking and others maintain. Absolute nothing cannot have mathematical relationships predicated on it, not even quantum gravitational ones. Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency - a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what "breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe." Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality." http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/bornagain77
October 5, 2010
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Remember that what Hawking is saying contradicts what Stephen Meyer says in Signature In The Cell. Meyer explicitly states that there is NO explanation for the origin of life which can reduce the emergence of the original informational code down to purely natural laws and perhaps random changes. This also brings up another objection to what Hawking is proposing- which is "if you can say that the origin of the universe and all that is in it can be explained by appealing to laws which have the power to bring forth order than how do you explain the origin of random or seemingly random events? It strikes me that if something is random than at some level it goes against natural laws of order- and that perhaps those random events are not random but the result of a deeper intelligent causation. As Godel showed logically we shall never have an explanation of the universe which is totally complete. However as ID postulates you are not limited to appealing to only laws themselves to explain order- as order to ID is best understood as a manifestation of mind and intelligence- which includes both the allowance of random variables- in the same way that a designed game of black jack uses chance- as well as virtually predictable events ie laws- and most importantly totally improbable planned events as well- like those needed to explain the emergence of the super complex specified code of DNA. If you cannot reduce the origin of DNA to chance and law then you certainly cannot reduce the origin of the universe to only laws themselves. And once again even if you choose to believe everything is reducible to eternal self emerging laws- you STILL have no empirical or testable example of a law arising by itself ex nihilo and being able to produce functional specified complexity. We DO however know of many examples of where laws come into being via INTELLIGENT AGENTS. The crux is in the primal cause, and in all known examples laws come from legislators - not the other way around.Frost122585
October 5, 2010
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Upright writes, "May I make a suggestion? The number of grains of sand on the beach does not exist until it is first percieved and brought into existence. Until that point, the sand on the beach is just the sand on the beach. " Are you serious? And since no one can perceive all the grains of sand on the beach, does that mean the number of grains of sand doesn't exist? Does that mean the center of the earth doesn't exist because no one can perceive. I doubt any reasonable philosophy holds this view,Aleta
October 5, 2010
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Nice post Whois...Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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uoflcard, I do have one more piece of evidence that is very suggestive to the fact that the infinite Mind of God was the 'cause' of this universe: According to esteemed British mathematical physicist Roger Penrose (1931-present), the odds of one particular individual constant, the 'original phase-space volume' of the universe, required such precision that the "Creator’s aim must have been to an accuracy of 1 part in 10^10^123”. This number is gargantuan. If this number were written out in its entirety, 1 with 10^123 zeros to the right, it could not be written on a piece of paper the size of the entire visible universe, even if a number were written down on each sub-atomic particle in the entire universe, since the universe only has 10^80 sub-atomic particles in it. Roger Penrose discusses initial entropy of the universe. - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhGdVMBk6Zo The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose Excerpt: "The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the "source" of the Second Law (Entropy)." http://www.pul.it/irafs/CD%20IRAFS%2702/texts/Penrose.pdf How special was the big bang? - Roger Penrose Excerpt: This now tells us how precise the Creator's aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123. (from the Emperor’s New Mind, Penrose, pp 339-345 - 1989) http://www.ws5.com/Penrose/ This 1 in 10^10^123 number, for the time-asymmetry of the initial state of the 'ordered entropy' for the universe, also lends strong support for 'highly specified infinite information' creating the universe since; "Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more." Gilbert Newton Lewis --------- further note: "The Big Bang represents an immensely powerful, yet carefully planned and controlled release of matter, energy, space and time. All this is accomplished within the strict confines of very carefully fine-tuned physical constants and laws. The power and care this explosion reveals exceeds human mental capacity by multiple orders of magnitude." Prof. Henry F. Schaefer Thermodynamic Argument Against Evolution - Thomas Kindell - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4168488bornagain77
October 5, 2010
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uoflcard, When I state Information, I am specifically referring to the type of functional information that is only known to come from a mind and am not referring to the broad definition of Shannon information which can take practically anything to mean information: The Evolution-Lobby’s Useless Definition of Biological Information - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: By wrongly implying that Shannon information is the only “sense used by information theorists,” the NCSE avoids answering more difficult questions like how the information in biological systems becomes functional, or in its own words, “useful.”,,,Since biology is based upon functional information, Darwin-skeptics are interested in the far more important question of, Does neo-Darwinism explain how new functional biological information arises? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/02/the_evolutionlobbys_useless_de.html Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information - Abel, Trevors Excerpt: Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1208958/ The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag As I am fairly weak in this area for making myself clear as to exactly what type of information I specifically mean, I am looking forward to reading Dr. Johnson's new book on the subject so that I may be able to better defend myself in this area and to hopefully apply the proper definitions I learn of information in the cell to parallels of information in the universe at large so as to bring clarity to this important area of consideration: Programming of Life http://scienceintegrity.net/ProgrammingofLife.aspx I highly recommend this book." David L. Abel, Director, The Gene Emergence Project, Department of ProtoBioCybernetics and ProtoBioSemiotics, The Origin of Life Science Foundation, Inc.bornagain77
October 5, 2010
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Casting aside the principle of cause and effect, it is now perfectly acceptable to invoke “nothing” as the cause for the origin of the universe, the unguided spontaneous self-assembly of a cell, and the unguided spontaneous self-assembly of multicellular organisms (common descent): “The universe is flat. It has zero total energy and it could have begun from nothing ... If you have nothing in quantum mechanics, you'll always get something. It's that simple.” Theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss, “A Universe From Nothing”, October 21, 2009, Atheist Alliance International event. (Selected quote begins 40:33 into video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=D62809AD452EDB98 “Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.” Professor Stephen Hawking, ”Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God”, September 2, 2010, The Guardian Online. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/02/stephen-hawking-big-bang-creator “We proposed that the genetic material could drive the growth of cells just by virtue of being there.” Jack W. Szostak, “Battle of the Bubbles May Have Sparked Evolution”, September 03, 2004, Howard Hughes Medical Institute: Research News. http://www.hhmi.org/news/szostak4.html "Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good, I am better off than he is; for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows." - Socrateswhoisyourcreator
October 5, 2010
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Hello uoflcard, May I make a suggestion? The number of grains of sand on the beach does not exist until it is first percieved and brought into existence. Until that point, the sand on the beach is just the sand on the beach. Information is the product of perception, it must be abstracted from reality in order to exist.Upright BiPed
October 5, 2010
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ba77 (#9) - I would agree with you except material processes do create some information. It's just not functional, complex, specific information. The order of grains of sand on a beach is information completely explicable by natural processes, except when it is in the shape of a sea turtle or spells out the phrase "Mark loves Betty". Then the only possible explanations are an electrochemical kludge shaped by the blunt hammer of natural evolution, or an actual, intelligent, conscious mind.uoflcard
October 5, 2010
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Aleta, to postulate some inflexible law as 'creator' of the universe with no supporting evidence whatsoever, as I have partially presented the compelling case for Theism, simply is not science, but is merely the stating of your philosophical preference. Just curious, do you still believe material processes can create the staggering levels of information we find in life though you have never seen material processes create any information whatsoever?bornagain77
October 4, 2010
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Aleta, Don't you find it even a little bit 'confirming' to the Theistic postulation that the universe was created by the Infinite Mind of Almighty God, to find that all of reality reduces to information, and to specifically find that mathematical definition of a photon is infinite information, Shoot a photon can 'hypothetically be encoded with infinite information; Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 notes: "It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom - at a very deep bottom, in most instances - an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that things physical are information-theoretic in origin." John Archibald Wheeler Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation: http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/ArticleDetail/tabid/68/id/8638/Default.aspx ,,, It is very compelling to find that the only things capable of producing functional information that we know of are our minds. Thus it is only logical to infer that the source of this infinite functional information, which specifies each photon comes from a infinite mind! Shoot even the foundational equations which govern this universe are 'functional information' in their character, and what are the universal constants save for transcendent information parameters the the material components, which are themselves made out of infinite information, must obey? The whole shooting match is information, and we know from our uniform repeated experience that information always comes from a mind!bornagain77
October 4, 2010
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Post 6 was to ba - I hadn't seen tragic mishap's. And I should have quoted: the "this" in the first sentence referred to "a paradigm of eternal law." So to tragic - Sure, participate away (as if I had much say about the matter.) Let's study how the world works in science, realizing its limitations, and let's share our religious and metaphysical speculations, and recognize their limitations.Aleta
October 4, 2010
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This is a metaphysical belief, and there is no empirical evidence (other than the fact that a lawful universe does exists), nor do I, or anyone else, have any idea, or way of finding out, what the eternal law is (or laws, or Platonic world, or whatever it might be). But positing such a concept is no different than positing an eternal being who somehow created a universe out of nothing. That is my main point - we can't know, and we ought to recognize our speculations as just that.Aleta
October 4, 2010
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I don’t see how a “paradigm of eternal law” is any more problematic than a paradigm of an eternal being. Neither paradigm is testable, and has been mentioned in other threads recently, both represent possible metaphysical explanations for the core nature of the world.
Sure. If you are content with both viewpoints being equal, that's fine with us. We'd prefer to be allowed to participate in science right alongside you though, but only if that's ok with you.tragic mishap
October 4, 2010
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Aleta; Just what 'eternal law' is it that allows us to create energy and violate the first law of thermodynamics. Please do supply Hawking's missing empirical confirmation so that he may at least have a speck of observational evidence to support his conjecture,, Personally I feel he may have a bit of a hard time doing that since it takes a infinite amount of specified information to create a photon: Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf ------- How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. --- As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ But to reflect just a bit more on the teleportation experiment itself, is interesting to note that scientists can only 'destroy' a photon in these quantum teleportation experiments. No one has 'created' a photon as of yet. I firmly believe man shall never do as such, since I hold only God is infinite, and perfect, in information/knowledge. Job 38:19-20 “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?" Further reflection on the quantum teleportation experiment: That a photon would actually be destroyed upon the teleportation (separation) of its 'infinite' information to another photon is a direct controlled violation of the first law of thermodynamics. (i.e. a photon 'disappeared' from the 'material' universe when the entire information content of a photon was 'transcendently displaced' from the material universe by the experiment, when photon “c” transcendently became transmitted photon “a”). Thus, Quantum teleportation is direct empirical validation for the primary tenet of the Law of Conservation of Information (i.e. 'transcendent' information cannot be created or destroyed). This conclusion is warranted because information exercises direct dominion of energy, telling energy exactly what to be and do in the experiment. Thus, this experiment provides a direct line of logic that transcendent information cannot be created or destroyed and, in information demonstrating transcendence, and dominion, of space-time and matter-energy, becomes the only known entity that can satisfactorily explain where all energy came from as far as the origination of the universe is concerned. That is transcendent information is the only known entity which can explain where all the energy came from in the Big Bang without leaving the bounds of empirical science as the postulated multiverse does. Clearly anything that exercises dominion of the fundamental entity of this physical universe, a photon of energy, as transcendent information does in teleportation, must of necessity possess the same, as well as greater, qualities as energy does possess in the first law of thermodynamics (i.e. Energy cannot be created or destroyed by any known material means according to the first law). To reiterate, since information exercises dominion of energy in quantum teleportation then all information that can exist, for all past, present and future events of energy, already must exist. notes,,, The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914 Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 "I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/best-brainac/article37176-2.html "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." – Richard Swenson Aleta that definitely is NOT a materialistic prediction, but fits extremely well into the Theistic framework. Special Relativity - Time Dilation and Length Contraction - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mYbornagain77
October 4, 2010
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I don't see how a "paradigm of eternal law" is any more problematic than a paradigm of an eternal being. Neither paradigm is testable, and has been mentioned in other threads recently, both represent possible metaphysical explanations for the core nature of the world.Aleta
October 4, 2010
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Ah see the issue is that Hawkins is just doign the same old crap that "religious" agnostics and atheists have been doing forever. He trys to play it cool and make his proposed theory sound honest by conceeding the basic inadequecy of a materialistic world view ( just like Darwin did by appealing to mechancial determinstic and random mechanisms) but in this case Hawkins is appealing directly to the metaphyscial. To Hawkins laws need not imply a legislator- just like to Darwin selection need not imply a intelligent selector- except netheir can explain the origin of where the mechanisms of their own theories arises from. Both Hakins and Drawin are taking the liberty of special pleeding for their theories- because we do not see unintelligent seletion in nature producing anything novel from scratch- and nor do we ever know of one case where a natural law capable of designing complex functional phenomea "came" into being. We do however know of many cases where productive laws have been inacted via "intelligent agents"... Darwins theory at the least fails to account for first life and enviornemntal landscapes. Hawkins fails to deomstrate any check whatsoever for his imcomplete postulated theory. Hawkin's God is simply natual laws themselves- and Darwin's God was random events and evviornmental/sexual selection. Netheir of these individuals saw the need for any "personal" origin or explanation of complexity- nor did they see anyhting in nature supporting the existence of their incomplete Gods.Frost122585
October 4, 2010
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It's very simple and does not deserve a whole lot of thought. Hawking is replacing the old materialist paradigm of eternal matter with a new paradigm of eternal law. Neither viewpoint entails a "something from nothing" claim, whatever Hawking says.tragic mishap
October 4, 2010
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