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KF on Proof

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KF’s comment to a prior post deserves its own OP. If only people understood the simple, yet profound, point KF is making. KF writes:

Proof is a term too often used more for rhetorical impact than for humble acknowledgement of the achievements and limitations of human reasoning and deduction especially. As such, we must bear Godel in mind, truth and proof are very different, and axiomatic systems for complicated areas face incompleteness and/or possible incoherence. Even mathematics is not an absolutely certain discipline. Science cannot prove beyond such and such has so far passed certain empirical tests and may be taken as so far reliable, when it is at its best. Too often it is not and becomes a lab coat that gives unwarranted credibility to ideology. So, we end up at pisteis, rhetorical proof, where we seek to provide reasonable warrant for beliefs or opinions etc, and must reckon with the issues lurking behind pathos, ethos, logos. We are in the end, faith-driven reasoners, the issue is which faith, which set of first plausibles, why and why in light of comparative difficulties. But to get that far we must first make sure that we do not undermine the basic credibility of responsible reason through sawing off the branch on which we all must sit, the error of hyperskepticism. 

Comments
MNY, God is real, apart from our imagination and this is accessible to our ability to warrant claims as credibly true and reasonable. That is what the objectivity of God is about. That has nothing to do with your erroneous projection that to refer to God as objectively real, is to assign him to be a creation (of our imagination?) rather than the root of reality and creator of worlds. The provision of adequate warrant for the reality of God is what proof, rightly understood, is about. And yes, that takes dead aim at notions such as unless you can prove God's reality on premises the most stringent hyperskeptics will accept, then we can act as though God's reality is dubious and a matter of blind faith. Nope, hyperskeptics indulge premises that are self-referentially absurd, sawing off the branch on which we all must sit, through creating plato's cave style grand delusions. KFkairosfocus
July 31, 2021
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The name God is defined in terms of that He makes choices. Like the decision by which the universe was created, or the decisions at the final judgement. All what is defined in terms of making choices, can only be identified with a chosen opinion. For the exactsame reason that fear, love, kindness, are subjective, God is also subjective. Because choices are made out of emotions and personal character, therefore emotions and personal character are subjective. It is a total heresy to define God as being objective. What is obvious, is true. To define God as objective, means to define God as being an objective material creation. As all creations are regarded as objective and material.mohammadnursyamsu
July 31, 2021
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Jack, I see you are going cross-thread with a string of village atheist accusations, which is ill-advised. When you did so in the string theory thread, I posed a challenge at 42 which has not been answered for some days; which, especially deals with our alleged stupidity (but also speaks to our alleged ignorance, or insanity or wickedness . . . and yes that is Dawkins): >> . . . I will be direct: 1: Kindly provide a single actually observed case where blind chance and/or mechanical necessity have caused functionally specific configuration based function beyond 500 – 1,000 bits of complexity: __________ 2: I confidently assert that you cannot do so, nor can any objector to the design inference, you will know that such were tried for years and failed consistently. 3: I further assert Newton’s rule, if we cannot directly observe a causal factor and can only observe traces, then we have a right to insist that candidate causes be shown to have ability to generate the effects in question, in our observation. 4: Observe that cell based life has in it D/RNA technology, exhibiting digital code [4-state, GCAT/U], expressing complex algorithms, a technology central to life. 5: This is language, and algorithms. These have precisely one known and plausible cause, design. That is intelligently directed configuration. 6: We confidently infer, life, based on core technologies involved, is designed. 7: Needless distractions are utterly irrelevant and indeed trying to stir up distractive toxic quarrels simply shows that there is intent to evade and suppress a core point that is most inconvenient to a preferred agenda.>> Whether or no you are personally atheistical, you have taken up a line of accusations and projections that goes nowhere. You full well know that such matters are far afield of UD's remit and you and others have been pointed to those who have addressed such village atheist talking points at responsible length, such as Paul Copan and W L Craig at Reasonable Faith. There is a 101 on the general issue of the sins and blessings of Christendom here. Neither this thread nor UD in general are proper fora for addressing such accusations and your attempt at moral preening by projecting accusations to others likely speaks to serious cognitive dissonance challenges. Further ill-tempered irresponsible rhetoric such as you indulged above in an obvious derailment attempt and/or projection of a distraction from a focal issue, is not advisable. That you seek to distract or derail, suggests rather that the flak implies the point in the OP highlighted by BA is on target and is by that accuracy is highly relevant to onward urgently needed reforms for our civilisation. KFkairosfocus
July 31, 2021
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Jack@24: I see that you are still here wasting time communicating with “stupid” people. Since you are here again to entertain us, please describe what kind of non-atheist you are. Enlighten us with your profound wisdom.Truth Will Set You Free
July 31, 2021
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P.S. 1. Girlfriend 2. Fun 3. More fun 4. Led Zeppelin 5. Girlfriend Get a life, losers And stop jacking off to porn, losers. (ET knows who he is.) (Just trying to help you idiots.) You can lead a horse to water...Jack
July 30, 2021
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ET, Get a girlfriend P.S. I'm not an atheist. (Gawd, you people are stupid.)Jack
July 30, 2021
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Jack, I find it fascinating that you think that your ignorance is an argument. If the people who believe there is no creator at all can present a scientific explanation for our existence the world would love to hear it.ET
July 30, 2021
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Kf: "Objective means, his existence is not a matter of the questionable perception or opinion or will of an error-prone, finite, morally struggling creature but is instead manifest on sound warrant" Humans have a lot of different views and feelings about what the creator is. A lot of people believe that there is no creator at all. I find it fascinating that the god you believe in sometimes commands his followers to murder children. This says a lot about youJack
July 30, 2021
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MNY, God is objectively real, indeed the root of reality, author of all worlds and creatures. Objective means, his existence is not a matter of the questionable perception or opinion or will of an error-prone, finite, morally struggling creature but is instead manifest on sound warrant. As for accepting first plausibles not subject to proof and in some cases as start point for proofs, that is a matter of core worldview commitments. It is possible to believe or even to know that God is, without believing in God; having repentant trust in God and right relationship. The devils believe, and shudder as they contemplate their ultimate judgement. We are speaking of faith but at utterly different levels. It is a matter of fact that we experience consciousness and yet that is antecedent to proofs. Likewise, first principles of reasoning are already implicit in attempted proofs, we cannot prove them, but we must recognise them to be rational. KFkairosfocus
July 30, 2021
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It's logic, it's the exactsame in any language whatsoever. The difference between matters of opinion and matters of fact is the exactsame in all languages. And you are obviously just as rotten and corrupt as any atheist. Good luck praying to your objective golden calf god or whatever. What a coincedence eh, the golden calf was objective, and your god is also objective.mohammadnursyamsu
July 30, 2021
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LCD @16 You know, I think you're right. Especially after his reply at 18. M, is English your first language? I've seen you post that 1. and 2. several times before. You don't seem to know what I mean between subjective and objective. Objective = facts Subjective = feelingsAnimatedDust
July 30, 2021
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Ok, let's talk in detail about this, because I know for a fact, so not subjective, that I am right about this. Basically the way you talk about subjectivity, is that you don't regard subjectivity as referring to an independent reality. 1. Creator / chooses / subjective / spiritual / opinion 2. Creation / chsoen / objective / material / fact So then obviously God is classified in category number 1, together with emotions, personal character, the soul. God makes choices, and choices are made out of personal character and emotions, therefore God, emotions, and personal character belong in category 1. The substance of God is called spiritual, and God is subjective, meaning he can only be identified with a chosen opinion. Subjective doesn't mean only for me. I can choose the opinion God is real, you can choose the opinion God is real, same God. Much the same logic as to say someone is a kind person. You feel this person is kind, I feel this person is kind, same kindness. Now someone may disagree, and say the person is unkind. It is a logically valid opinion. Regardless of what opinion is chosen, this person who is said to be kind / unkind is still making their choices. So then, choices are made in the universe, someone feels God made those choices, others say it was not God, regardless the choices are still made. It is still an independent reality that makes the choices, regardless of whether this independent reality is identified as God or not. And it is totally obvious that you are in line with fact obsessed atheists, by asserting God is objective.mohammadnursyamsu
July 30, 2021
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AnimatedDust M @12. That’s ridiculous. God is not entirely subjective when we are talking about his objective existence to all of us.
:)) He doesn't know what means to be subjective/ objective .He relates subjective to subject(being) and objective to an object..Lieutenant Commander Data
July 30, 2021
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I am a Christian. Is God real for everyone? Or just us individually? That is what you seem to be implying. And I don't have a problem with God being spiritual and subjective. You throw the heresy word around as if you know God's mind as well as you think you do.AnimatedDust
July 30, 2021
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Oh, God is objective like some material thing huh? That's atheism, materialism, and heresy. You just hate subjectivity, like all fact obsessed atheists do. If you appreciate subjectivity, then you would have no problem with God being spiritual and subjective.mohammadnursyamsu
July 30, 2021
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M @12. That's ridiculous. God is not entirely subjective when we are talking about his objective existence to all of us.AnimatedDust
July 30, 2021
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KF, it is basically heresy the way you talk about faith in first principles. Faith is relying on God, who is Himself entirely spiritual, and therefore entirely subjective.mohammadnursyamsu
July 30, 2021
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WJM @10: Is there a thread where you've summarized IRT? I have seen much that you've written about it, but don't recall a thread where you've comprehensively laid it out. I'd appreciate a link if you have one. Trying to really understand it. Much obliged.AnimatedDust
July 30, 2021
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KF, Until you decide to make a good faith attempt at understanding the conceptual framework of IRT on its own terms, like my good faith attempt to understand your concept of "first duties" and BA77's argument for geocentrism, you are not entering the debate in good faith. Until then, you have no basis by which to make any valid criticisms.William J Murray
July 30, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, I find it amusing to see that as the man who promotes a view that undermines the credibility of minds
I've never promoted any such thing, and I've corrected you enough times for you to know better. Further, you're making statements about a view that you have repeatedly demonstrated you do not understand, and have made no attempt to understand. It's starting to look to me like you're deliberately lying, or at the least, not talking to me in good faith.William J Murray
July 30, 2021
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Jerry, you are right, unless a civilisation can hold loyalty willing to be paid for in blood, it cannot endure. Elites that undermine the basic confidence of a civilisation betray their privilege. Privilege entails duty. KFkairosfocus
July 30, 2021
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WJM, I find it amusing to see that as the man who promotes a view that undermines the credibility of minds required to recognise first principles and facts, you now seek to speak as though such first facts and principles are so certain that they do not require faith. No, we have first plausibles that are antecedents of proof, which must be taken as self evident before we can get to proofs. And if one undermines such, s/he saws off the branch on which we all must sit. That said, onward, SETs cannot amount to enough to frame a worldview, we need other points we hold plausible which are not provable and are not self evident, for example we need to acknowledge the general reliability of memory, even though it may err in details. So, too, reliability of sound record, which cannot be established to utter certainty. That includes record in Science and indeed mathematics. At practical level, we are forced to accept major bodies of knowledge on faith, as we cannot each reproduce the world of knowledge from first principles, and more. KF PS: BA was actually citing at that point, as he noted.kairosfocus
July 30, 2021
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Which Faith?
It must be a faith that one is willing to die for. Otherwise, it will lose to such a faith. It is assumed that large numbers will die to promote such a faith. However, today we have such massive instruments of death, some may believe they are safe and will not die while they can kill others. But if they don’t, then that still remains a restraint on them killing others. There is also the strategy of taking a small bit at a time because this assumes others will not be willing to die for something small. But small bits accumulate. I once heard a discussion of the battle for Pork Chop Hill in the Korean War. It was a meaningless piece of terrain but it represented a clash of wills snd faiths over something meaningless. Would we fight a Pork Chop Hill today?jerry
July 30, 2021
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Mr. Arrington said:
We are in the end, faith-driven reasoners, the issue is which faith, which set of first plausibles, why and why in light of comparative difficulties.
Of course, I disagree. At least, I think I do, from my understanding of what is meant here. There are fundamental statements about our existence that do not require faith to know for certain, such as "I exist" and "I experience." I may not know what I exist as, or what experience means or refers to, but that doesn't change the inescapable certainty of those statements. The fundamental principles of logic do not require any faith because they are inescapably applicable to all possible sentient thought. There are other inescapable conditions of conscious, sentient experience that I listed in another thread at another time. These things do not require faith, only recognition of what they are, either as existential necessities or as unavoidables. One of the innate, perhaps necessary qualities of a sentient, conscious mind is pattern recognition; we recognize patterns in our experience. Some patterns are predictable with mathematical precision and some are more statistical in nature. The successful modeling of patterns does not necessarily require faith, but some are more easily accessible given a faith that such predictable models can be discovered or worked out. Where does faith actually enter the picture, or become the "faith base" of a person's perspective and reasoning efforts? I assume we're talking about "faith" in a more substantial form than just a conditional expectation of patterns of experience playing out the way we think is likely. I think we're talking about faith in something that (1) cannot be proved, and (2) is not an existential inescapable or an existential necessity (for all possible conscious, sentient experiences.) Since it is an existential inescapable that all experience occurs in mind, it seems to me that one of the first entries of faith is the belief that something exists external of mind that causes a certain category of mental experiences. There no way to even support that model via evidence, even in principle. This is a first level faith commitment. I think there are other such first-level faith commitments, but let's look at this one in particular. What do I mean by a "first-level" faith commitment? The idea that something exists external of mind marks the beginning of a particular category of ontological/epistemological systems that go beyond recognizing existential necessities and unavoidables. It frames existence and knowledge in a particular way. It fundamentally frames the patterns we experience in a particular way. It is the beginning of various materialist, physicalist, dualist, religious, atheistic, and spiritual ontological/epistemological models. It sorts experiences categorically and provides the very meaning of the terms we use in those categorizations. By faith, I assume that we don't mean we are taking that O/E perspective as a conditional expectation that may or may not be true; rather, we have committed to it as "what is real" and "how knowledge is acquired" and what knowledge refers to. IOW, faith enters the picture at the first level of a particular ontology/epistemology that goes beyond existential necessities and unavoidables. However, there are other ways of thinking about these things that do not require anything other than conditional expectation. They do not require putting one's faith in anything as "reality" because one is not asserting or "having faith in" (beyond conditional expectation) something beyond what is unavoidable and necessary in all O/E perspectives, in all possible sentient experience. IOW, faith (beyond conditional expectation) in the unprovable is not necessary. One might call this faithless perspective as philosophical pragmatism; not investing in any particular O/E model as true, but rather using patterns in our experiences to form conditional expectations in acquiring the experiences we desire and avoiding those we wish to avoid as best we can. The pragmatist can use various models or invent new ones to find experiential success because they are not faithfully committed to any particular model as "the truth" about what their experiences represent.William J Murray
July 30, 2021
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I pointed out several times some theory that Godel's incompleteness theorem could be avoided. In respect to Peter Rowlands, Bernard Diaz nilpotent theory. Ordering mathematics in efficent steps of mathematical structures awaw from 0, and deriving mathematics including the mathematical operators in a logical way. You have dis-incentivized refuting Godel's incompleteness theorem. From my creationist point of view where I use a logical definition of fact, and a logical definition of opinion, obviously it makes no sense, what you are doing. As ignorance about the logic of fact, and the logic of opinion is widespread, why on earth would you then want to weaken that logic further? If you know the logic of fact, then it is quite obvious that our current knowledge has deficiencies. One would NOT notice deficiencies in our current knowledge if one confuses feelings of certitude commonly associated to facts, for what facts are. If one is clueless about the logic of fact, and then feels very certain something is true.mohammadnursyamsu
July 29, 2021
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MNY, we are agents so subjects, responsible, rational, significantly free and freedom is a component of being rational not just a computational substrate. However we are also finite, fallible, morally struggling, too often ill willed or even stubborn in error. This brings up aspects of prudence, here proof. In looking at proof I took time to clarify its strengths and limits. Especially in a post Godel incompleteness age. To highlight the need to do due diligence to truth, right reason, warrant and more is not to disrespect or sideline agency. To examine what proof is and its limits is not to disrespect agency etc. There is a need to address overclaiming proof and that I took time to do. KFkairosfocus
July 29, 2021
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I think I know what's going on here. KF doesn't really have any validation of subjectivity. So then he has to put subjectivity inside of objectivity, in order to have an emotional life. So then he puts faith in on the basis of objectivity. Otherwise, it is obviously ridiculous to not focus on the logical definition of fact, and focus instead on the deficiencies in getting perfect facts. These deficiencies is what allows him faith, allows him to have an emotional life. If science were perfect with perfect facts, then apparently KF would have no faith. And all the time that science is improving, KF's faith is reduced. I on the other hand as a creationist, acknowledge seperate domains, spiritual and material. Validating both subjectivity and objectivity, each in their own right. So then obviously I emphasize the logical definition of fact, perfect facts. And no matter if science was completely finished with perfect factual knowledge, I would still have faith, because I acknowledge a separate spirtual domain.mohammadnursyamsu
July 29, 2021
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There is none in this world that doesn't built his worldview on a type of FAITH . All people(theists, atheists, agnostics,etc) can be called religious in the sense of believing in something that IT'S IMPOSSIBLE to be proven. The test is to chose the most reasonable belief no matter what you FEEL toward that belief(if a certain belief would require to change your life entirely it's possible to ignore it deliberately because...laziness) . Unfortunatelly avoiding conscious what we know it's true will ultimatelly weaken/destroy our capacity to chose the truth next time. Next time will be harder.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 29, 2021
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