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Kirk Durston: Information decrease falsifies essential Darwinian prediction

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From Kirk Durston,

Mounting evidence that the digital information that encodes all of life is steadily degrading, falsifies a key prediction of the theory of neo-Darwinian macroevolution and verifies a prediction of intelligent design science.

Longer:

I was struck, but not surprised, by a statement made a few days ago by Neil Turok, Director of the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics here in Waterloo, Ontario. Speaking of the apparent collapse of evidence for a critical component of the Big Bang theory, he responded, ‘even though hundreds or thousands of people are working on an idea, it may still be wrong.’

His statement is a harbinger of a much greater collapse looming on the scientific horizon, also involving thousands of scientists. There is mounting evidence that most, if not all the key predictions of the neo-Darwinian theory of macroevolution are being consistently falsified by advances in science, several of which I will discuss in later posts. Here, we look at a fundamental prediction Darwinism makes regarding the increase of genetic information.

Computer information is digitally encoded using just two symbols (‘1’ and ‘0’). We now know that the instructions for the full diversity of life, are digitally encoded in the DNA of all living things using a four-symbol alphabet. In more technical terms, this is referred to as functional information.

In the neo-Darwinian scenario for the origin and diversity of life, the digital functional information for life would have had to begin at zero, increase over time to eventually encode the first simple life form, and continue to increase via natural processes to encode the digital information for the full diversity of life.

An essential, falsifiable prediction of Darwinian theory, therefore, is that functional information must, on average, increase over time.

Interestingly enough, a prediction of intelligent design science is quite the opposite. Since information always degrades over time for any storage media and replication system, intelligent design science postulates that the digital information of life was initially downloaded into the genomes of life. It predicts that, on average, genetic information is steadily being corrupted by natural processes. The beauty of these two mutually incompatible predictions in science is that the falsification of one entails verification of the other. So, which prediction does science falsify, and which one does science verify? More.

Actually, it no longer matters whether Darwinian evolution has any relationship to fact. Airheads believe it, judges enforce it, union teachers spout it, students know they had better absorb it—a combo like that doesn’t need facts or evidence, and is in fact hostile to them. They are unwelcome intruders into a System That Works for its proponents.

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Comments
butifnot: DNA is looking more like a list of ingredients and not the recipe. There is, must be a level of control which we have not found yet.
I agree that there must be even more levels of control which are not discovered yet. However we already found levels of control above and beyond DNA; see e.g. #42 and #60.Box
June 28, 2015
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Jerry your statement on Neo-Darwinism just seems like an unnecessarily long self evident truth: Things change.
Then it wasn't on this site. Today maybe you are right. I hope so.jerry
June 28, 2015
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Mapau, I firmly believe we do not even know what we don't know yet. So I don't think pronouncements either way are warranted. DNA is looking more like a list of ingredients and not the recipe. There is, must be a level of control which we have not found yet.butifnot
June 28, 2015
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Jerry your statement on Neo-Darwinism just seems like an unnecessarily long self evident truth: Things change.butifnot
June 28, 2015
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REC, you're misrepresenting ID or don't understand the ID position, or something.Mung
June 28, 2015
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jerry: You tell us what you were arguing for. Even then your love for Salvador came through. I already told you what was arguing for. And yes, hate the sin, love the sinner. My record on YEC is well-documented here and elsewhere. And you might look into what I think of the "genetic entropy" argument. But really, you should just drop the whole line. It will not benefit you in the least and it seems rather pointless. But it is your time to do with as you wish.Mung
June 28, 2015
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So Roy, perhaps you can point out the exact experimental evidence that I missed instead of just pronouncing that the pseudo-science of Darwinism is science and ID is not? of note: You do realize that Darwinism undercuts scientific rationality in the first place don't you? i.e. Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism!bornagain77
June 28, 2015
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REC: contrary to what you believe as a neo-Darwinist, mutations are now found to be not truly random, i.e. 'unguided', as was postulated within Darwinism’s core theoretical framework, but are found to be 'directed'
How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. - 2013 Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611 WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Fully Random Mutations – Kevin Kelly – 2014 Excerpt: What is commonly called “random mutation” does not in fact occur in a mathematically random pattern. The process of genetic mutation is extremely complex, with multiple pathways, involving more than one system. Current research suggests most spontaneous mutations occur as errors in the repair process for damaged DNA. Neither the damage nor the errors in repair have been shown to be random in where they occur, how they occur, or when they occur. Rather, the idea that mutations are random is simply a widely held assumption by non-specialists and even many teachers of biology. There is no direct evidence for it. On the contrary, there’s much evidence that genetic mutation vary in patterns. For instance it is pretty much accepted that mutation rates increase or decrease as stress on the cells increases or decreases. These variable rates of mutation include mutations induced by stress from an organism’s predators and competition, and as well as increased mutations brought on by environmental and epigenetic factors. Mutations have also been shown to have a higher chance of occurring near a place in DNA where mutations have already occurred, creating mutation hotspot clusters—a non-random pattern. http://edge.org/response-detail/25264 James A. Shapiro PhD. Genetics: “What I ask others interested in evolution to give up is the notion of random accidental mutation.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/jerry-coyne-fails-to-unde_b_1411144.html Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st Century - James A. Shapiro - 2009 Excerpt (Page 12): Underlying the central dogma and conventional views of genome evolution was the idea that the genome is a stable structure that changes rarely and accidentally by chemical fluctuations (106) or replication errors. This view has had to change with the realization that maintenance of genome stability is an active cellular function and the discovery of numerous dedicated biochemical systems for restructuring DNA molecules.(107–110) Genetic change is almost always the result of cellular action on the genome. These natural processes are analogous to human genetic engineering,,, (Page 14) Genome change arises as a consequence of natural genetic engineering, not from accidents. Replication errors and DNA damage are subject to cell surveillance and correction. When DNA damage correction does produce novel genetic structures, natural genetic engineering functions, such as mutator polymerases and nonhomologous end-joining complexes, are involved. Realizing that DNA change is a biochemical process means that it is subject to regulation like other cellular activities. Thus, we expect to see genome change occurring in response to different stimuli (Table 1) and operating nonrandomly throughout the genome, guided by various types of intermolecular contacts (Table 1 of Ref. 112). http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro2009.AnnNYAcadSciMS.RevisitingCentral%20Dogma.pdf Evolution Is Not Random (At Least, Not Totally) – Tanya Lewis, – 02 October 2014 Excerpt: Evolution is often said to be “blind,” because there’s no outside force guiding natural selection. But changes in genetic material that occur at the molecular level are not entirely random, a new study suggests. These mutations are guided by both the physical properties of the genetic code and the need to preserve the critical function of proteins, the researchers said.,,, “So in the end, most mutation is not random, at least for the DNA sequences we analyzed here,” http://m.livescience.com/48103-evolution-not-random.html?cid=514636_20141002_32724136 New Research Elucidates Directed Mutation Mechanisms – Cornelius Hunter – January 7, 2013 Excerpt: mutations don’t occur randomly in the genome, but rather in the genes where they can help to address the challenge. But there is more. The gene’s single stranded DNA has certain coils and loops which expose only some of the gene’s nucleotides to mutation. So not only are certain genes targeted for mutation, but certain nucleotides within those genes are targeted in what is referred to as directed mutations.,,, These findings contradict evolution’s prediction that mutations are random with respect to need and sometimes just happen to occur in the right place at the right time.,,, http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/01/news-research-elucidates-directed.html etc.. etc..
Perhaps, since this undercuts a primary tenet of Darwinism, you can explain to me exactly why this does not falsify neo-Darwinism?bornagain77
June 28, 2015
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Does he cite Lenski’s e-coli as a prime example of unguided material processes creating functional information as do other neo-Darwinists?
If you'd bother to read the article you picked rather than simply pasting the abstract, you might not need to ask. But that's the ID position. GThe designerod did it, but we won't say how because that'd give the game away, and science must be wrong, so there's no need to look.Roy
June 28, 2015
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This thread has degenerated into crap. Durston's original arguments are lost. I'm out of here.Mapou
June 28, 2015
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ba77 @83 "REC, that’s not the paper." I suspect it is, but that you don't know what your copy/pasting mess actually contains or references. It could be this one: http://www.lehigh.edu/~inbios/pdf/Behe/QRB_paper.pdf ...but it seems to challenge your own conclusion about it: "these were determined to be generally beneficial and not strictly compensatory for T3 RNAP." Anyway, since you're referencing it, can you get me the link to the paper where Behe concludes gain of function mutations are only compensatory, and that they are “implemented by the programming in the cell”?REC
June 28, 2015
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Mapou:
I’m still waiting for the evidence where Meyer (or anybody else) claims that the full diversity of life is the result of information not contained in the genes.
Already provided and I didn't even quote Wells yet.Virgil Cain
June 28, 2015
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REC, that's not the paper. here it is, with a list of all the mutations: EXPERIMENTAL EVOLUTION, LOSS-OF-FUNCTION MUTATIONS, AND “THE FIRST RULE OF ADAPTIVE EVOLUTION” http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ I believe the fact that purposeful deletions were implemented prior to gain of function mutations is mentioned in this following excellent interview of Dr. Behe Michael Behe: Intelligent Design – interview on radio program - ‘The Mind Renewed’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9SmPNQrQHEbornagain77
June 28, 2015
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Mapou:
It’s a scientific fact that our genes dictate what we are.
And yet scientists say otherwise. If it was a scientific fact then it should be found in some science journal and yet it isn't. Genes control traits. Being human is not a trait nor is it a collection of traits.Virgil Cain
June 28, 2015
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Jerry, please stop using quotes without mentioning their sources. It's confusing and unfriendly. And also, stop putting words in the mouths of prominent IDists. I'm still waiting for the evidence where Meyer (or anybody else) claims that the full diversity of life is the result of information not contained in the genes.Mapou
June 28, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Mapou: I see no reason to change my mind that genes (DNA) are the primary determinants of the wide ranging diversity of life on earth.
When you find the evidence that supports that view please share it with us. Thank you.
I will do no such thing. It's a scientific fact that our genes dictate what we are. I'm not the one making an obviously absurd contrary claim. You, on the contrary must provide evidence to support your claim that something other than genes is the primary determinant of the wide ranging diversity of life on earth.Mapou
June 28, 2015
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"Interestingly, the gain of function mutations listed by Behe in his paper all involve ‘compensatory mutations’ that are implemented by the programming in the cell." Which paper? This one: http://www.lehigh.edu/~inbios/pdf/Behe/Getting_there_first.pdf "Compensatory" doesn't appear. How did you, or he, determine they are "implemented by the programming in the cell"?REC
June 28, 2015
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Interestingly, the gain of function mutations listed by Behe in his paper all involve ‘compensatory mutations’ that are implemented by the programming in the cell in response to a deletion/loss of a gene/protein. i.e. Compensatory mutations are ‘directed’ mutations, as opposed to purely random mutations, which compensate for the deletion and/or loss of a gene and/or protein. Yet, even these 'directed', i.e. 'guided', compensatory mutations have never been shown to surpass wild type bacteria in a fitness test.
Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? – ‘The Fitness Test’ – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYaU4moNEBU
Thus compensatory mutations are not evidence for a gain of functional information over and above what was already present in the cell and/or life. In regards to the ‘fitness test’, the following is of related interest”
The Paradox of the “Ancient” (250 Million Year Old) Bacterium Which Contains “Modern” Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 “Raul J. Cano and Monica K. Borucki discovered the bacteria preserved within the abdomens of insects encased in pieces of amber. In the last 4 years, they have revived more than 1,000 types of bacteria and microorganisms — some dating back as far as 135 million years ago, during the age of the dinosaurs.,,, In October 2000, another research group used many of the techniques developed by Cano’s lab to revive 250-million-year-old bacteria from spores trapped in salt crystals. With this additional evidence, it now seems that the “impossible” is true.” http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=281961
In reply to a personal e-mail from myself, Dr. Cano commented on the ‘Fitness Test’ on the ancient bacteria that I had asked him about: Dr. Cano stated:
“We performed such a test, a long time ago, using a panel of substrates (the old gram positive biolog panel) on B. sphaericus. From the results we surmised that the putative “ancient” B. sphaericus isolate was capable of utilizing a broader scope of substrates. Additionally, we looked at the fatty acid profile and here, again, the profiles were similar but more diverse in the amber isolate.”: RJ Cano and MK Borucki – Fitness test which compared ancient amber sealed bacteria to its modern day descendants
Thus, the most solid evidence available for the most ancient DNA scientists are able to find does not support evolution happening on the molecular level of bacteria. In fact, according to the fitness test of Dr. Cano, the change witnessed in bacteria conforms to the exact opposite, Genetic Entropy; a loss of functional information/complexity, since fewer substrates and fatty acids are utilized by the modern strains. Considering the intricate level of protein machinery it takes to utilize individual molecules within a substrate, we are talking an impressive loss of protein complexity, and thus loss of functional information, from the ancient amber sealed bacteria.bornagain77
June 28, 2015
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jerry @ 75: "None of these are the ID position." I guess we have another vote, despite what I listed as answer 3 above quotes Jerry's response to my query on the ID position. Answers: 1) Durston: “We now know that the instructions for the full diversity of life, are digitally encoded in the DNA of all living things” 2) Virgil Cain: “It isn’t the DNA.” 3) Jerry: “Meyer indicates there may be a sophisticated information system in the cell wall of the egg ” 4) Mapou: “The genome holds > 99% of the information an organism carry, IMO. But the environment and epigenetics will contribute information content that is not inherited.” 5) Jerry: "None of these are the ID position."REC
June 28, 2015
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I was likely using it to refer to evolution to a simpler more streamlined or more efficient state and not in any sense arguing that something or other was degrading
You tell us what you were arguing for. Even then your love for Salvador came through. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/airplane-magnetos-contingency-designs-and-reasons-id-will-prevail/#comment-43597jerry
June 28, 2015
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Now, whatever I post, I’m sure I’ll be accused of not understanding, or misrepresenting the “ID position.”
None of your excerpts are the ID position. So feel free to use what you think makes sense and no one can accuse you or misrepresenting ID. However, Durston is wrong because his he is too narrow in his wording. All the building blocks are encoded there but not all the instructions on how they are used.jerry
June 28, 2015
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Durston seems to suggest he's inferring a general trend, but then provides us only specific examples of loss of DNA in parasites (which don't need a full metabolic repertoire) or loss of non-functional DNA in Drosophila. The point he misses is that genetic information is lost when it is not needed. When essential, it is maintained in populations. The articles he cites specifically state the relationship of the environment, selection and information. He seems to suggest information was downloaded in early genomes, and retained without selection. Just waiting around, uncorrupted for billions of years. This is obviously internally contradictory.REC
June 28, 2015
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Curious. I asked: "What is the ID position on where the “instructions for the full diversity of life” reside?" Answers: 1) Durston: "We now know that the instructions for the full diversity of life, are digitally encoded in the DNA of all living things" 2) Virgil Cain: "It isn’t the DNA." 3) Jerry: "Meyer indicates there may be a sophisticated information system in the cell wall of the egg " 4) Mapou: "The genome holds > 99% of the information an organism carry, IMO. But the environment and epigenetics will contribute information content that is not inherited." Now, whatever I post, I'm sure I'll be accused of not understanding, or misrepresenting the "ID position."REC
June 28, 2015
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jerry: By the way one of the earliest uses of the term “devolution” on this site was by you. And? You think I was using it to argue for YEC? I was likely using it to refer to evolution to a simpler more streamlined or more efficient state and not in any sense arguing that something or other was degrading, which means I was arguing the opposite of the view adopted by YECs.Mung
June 28, 2015
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Not being critical or implying it doesn’t exist, just asking. Truly curious. Thanks
I am off for a couple hours, but will try to find you an article. He lists several. This sounds promising Singer, S. S., D. N. Männel, T. Hehlgans, J. Brosius, and J. Schmitz. 2004. From “junk” to gene: curriculum vitae of a primate receptor isoform gene. Journal of Molecular Biology 341:883–886. I will have to see if I can get a copy. My access to journals is sometimes spotty. By the way one of the earliest uses of the term "devolution" on this site was by you.jerry
June 28, 2015
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In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain.
A couple things. Notice Behe does not say no positive information was generated. He just says the great majority of mutations, not all. This has been my position from early on. My first finding of the term "devolution" on this site was from 2006. https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/common-descent-or-common-design-is-there-a-difference/#comment-23062 Here is my first usage of this concept 7 1/2 years ago in https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/e-coli-and-their-evolution/#comment-155059 In it I describe what ID should be about. I have not changed much since then. I have learned a lot but it nearly all reinforced my position back then. The full quote from 2007.
I personally believe that ID should embrace neo Darwinism for two very important reasons 1. It describes a process that produces a lot of change in living organisms and these changes have highly significant effects on life’s progress. Consequently, it is foolish to rail against it. 2. I believe it is part of the design of life and as such is totally in sync with ID. I have often used the phrase that ID subsumes neo Darwinism and I firmly believe it because without neo Darwinism life would be very limited and stilted on this planet. People who support ID go immediately to what many neo Darwinists claim about the ability of this process to produce all the changes in biological organisms and then trash the whole theory. That is not good science. That is not logical. That is foolishness. I believe we should add a term to the concepts we use and that is “devolution” and point out that devolution is also part of the life change process and its main engine is neo Darwinism. While the term devolution usually carries a negative connotation, not all devolution is negative. We have had peripheral discussion over the last two years about where does all the variation come from in a population. It is something that neo Darwinism would not predict because the processes of neo Darwinism tend to remove variation from a population. Of course the obligatory response by those who support gradualism is that mutations are the source for this variation but what the Edge of Evolution has shown is that is highly unlikely. I remember great_ape saying that this was a problem for gradualism or naturalistic evolution. The genetic side of neo Darwinism causes population variation to decline. And while Sanford’s book argues that this will eventually lead to extinction of a species, new species constantly appear suddenly in life’s history and presumably the new populations appear with lots of variation because they seem to radiate out into many sub-species. And this is where neo Darwinism is essential for survival because given all the new variation, natural selection allows the species to survive in many different environments. In other words it allows sub variants to blossom where if not for neo Darwinism the species might go extinct sooner in the new environment. In other words the built in variation and neo Darwinism allow life to flourish, But we have not built a taxonomy that goes up as gradualist claim but a taxonomy that goes down to finer and finer variations of the original population. And to me this fits ID to a “T.” So I suggest we embrace neo Darwinism, argue against gradualism especially the Blind Watchmaker Thesis but point out how neo Darwinism helps make life flourish in many cirucmstances. I already above have made the point that neo Darwinism is essential for modern medicine. If one wants to go over again how that discussion started, read Seekandfind’s comment at #40 where he points out that the perception is that those who believe in ID are backward and a hindrance to science and that this hurdle has to be overcome. One way to overcome this is to embrace neo Darwinism and it devolution effects, some of which are good and some of which are bad for life. In evolution some are good and some are bad; in medicine nearly 100% are bad.
jerry
June 28, 2015
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Hi jerry, I've read the Brosius chapter in the Vrba book. If you were to pick a paper in the list you provided that best addresses the topic raised in the OP could you link to that one paper? I'd like to read it. Not being critical or implying it doesn't exist, just asking. Truly curious. ThanksMung
June 28, 2015
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Does he cite Lenski's e-coli as a prime example of unguided material processes creating functional information as do other neo-Darwinists?
Hype from New Scientist Aside, Lenski's E. coli Research Shows Evolution of Nothing New - Casey Luskin June 25, 2015 As we reported in April, the pro-Darwin media love to print triumphalist articles, declaring on the thinnest of evidence that the "creationists" are deathly scared of the latest discoveries in science. Now New Scientist takes a turn, claiming that the E. coli research of Richard Lenski "has become a poster child for evolution, causing consternation among creationists trying to explain away its compelling evidence." Yet read the article carefully, and you'll see that it confirms Lenski's research did not show the evolution of anything new. New Scientist frames the article this way: "The biggest evolutionary shift occurred after about the 31,500 generation, when one line in one of the 12 populations evolved the ability to feed on citrate" Except that's not true. Normal E. coli already have the ability to feed on citrate -- they just don't typically do it under oxic conditions (i.e., where oxygen is present). The interesting thing about Lenski's research is that his bugs evolved the ability to uptake citrate under oxic conditions. But did anything new evolve? Here's what the article says: "But a mutation in the citrate-eaters allowed them to make an "antiporter" protein, CitT, that allows citrate to cross the membrane and enter the cell. The gene for this protein already existed, but it's usually switched off when oxygen is present. The antiporter is a kind of revolving door. It allows one molecule to be swapped for another. In this case, the citrate is imported into the cell in exchange for one of three smaller, less-valuable molecules: succinate, fumarate or malate." What really happened? A switch that normally represses expression of CitT under oxic conditions was broken, so the citrate-uptake pathway got turned on. This isn't the evolution of a new molecular feature. It's the breaking of a molecular feature -- a repressor switch. Of course none of this is disclosed in the article. But New Scientist isn't done. It goes on: "Those citrate feeders soon became dominant, outcompeting all but one other strain of E. coli, which in turn evolved to exploit the changed environment -- which now contained the three exported molecules. It did this by making more of a transporter protein called DctA, which imports - at a small energy cost - succinate and other molecules exported by the citrate-eating strain. But things did not stop there. The citrate-eaters then also started making more DctA to try to claw back some of the succinate and other molecules they were losing in the process of acquiring citrate." Again, did anything new evolve? No -- all we see is overexpression of pre-existing genes. So in the end, E. coli are able to eat things that they could already metabolize before the experiments began. A molecular repressor switch has been broken, and another protein has been overexpressed. Nothing new to see here: these are all the kinds of changes we already know Darwinian evolution can do -- breaking things at the molecular level, or making more of something you already have. This is how New Scientist spins it: "Turner's findings are also yet another example of the mindlessness of evolution. The best solution would be to use a little energy to import citrate directly, the paper says, rather than swapping it for succinate and then spending energy to try to get that succinate back before other bacteria can feed on it." Bacteria are found almost everywhere on the earth -- from inside virtually every living organism to the deep sea to deep underground. They seem designed to be able to feed on just about anything they encounter. What Lenski may be seeing is the designed ability of bacteria to adapt to new environments using a diverse suite of metabolic pathways they have been gifted with, including the ability to break things or make more of them when needed. The media will tell you that this shows the amazing power of "mindless" Darwinian evolution. A closer look at the facts reveals nothing of the sort. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/06/hype_from_new_s097151.html Lenski's Long-Term Evolution Experiment: 25 Years and Counting - Michael Behe - November 21, 2013 Excerpt: Twenty-five years later the culture -- a cumulative total of trillions of cells -- has been going for an astounding 58,000 generations and counting. As the article points out, that's equivalent to a million years in the lineage of a large animal such as humans. Combined with an ability to track down the exact identities of bacterial mutations at the DNA level, that makes Lenski's project the best, most detailed source of information on evolutionary processes available anywhere,,, ,,,for proponents of intelligent design the bottom line is that the great majority of even beneficial mutations have turned out to be due to the breaking, degrading, or minor tweaking of pre-existing genes or regulatory regions (Behe 2010). There have been no mutations or series of mutations identified that appear to be on their way to constructing elegant new molecular machinery of the kind that fills every cell. For example, the genes making the bacterial flagellum are consistently turned off by a beneficial mutation (apparently it saves cells energy used in constructing flagella). The suite of genes used to make the sugar ribose is the uniform target of a destructive mutation, which somehow helps the bacterium grow more quickly in the laboratory. Degrading a host of other genes leads to beneficial effects, too.,,, - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/11/richard_lenskis079401.html
bornagain77
June 28, 2015
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"You have no way of knowing this unless you have read all of his research. Do you think that someone would have gotten where he has by making it up" Yes I do think he is making it all up. Apparently you don't! Fine, you read him, twice in some places, thus cite the actual experimental research that shows a gene/protein being generated in real time by unguided material processes. The evidence simply does not exist. You are invited to try to prove Dr. Behe, for one, wrong: “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/bornagain77
June 28, 2015
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Did I say anything that was wrong? That was the question I asked?
You are the one insinuating that he has something that counters my claim as to the state of empirical evidence.
He certainly claims he does and he is a very respected researcher. Do you deny that he claims to have shown new informnation arising through genetic processes.
He does not. Thus why did you bring him up in the first place.
You have no way of knowing this unless you have read all of his research. Do you think that someone would have gotten where he has by making it up? It is absurd to think that no new information will be created by these processes over billions of years. It is quite another thing to suggest that it explains the origin of all the information or even most of it. But none? I suggest you make Juergen Brosius your friend in your position by pointing out this is the best they have. This has been what I have done since first reading about him. I have been consistent about this for over six years since I first read his articles.jerry
June 28, 2015
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