Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Larry Moran Teaches Us Why We Should be Skeptical of Even Longstanding Orthodoxy

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Yesterday UD News reported on Kevin Laland’s comments about the controversies currently roiling in the materialist evolutionist community.  See The Royal Society Meeting: Keeping the lid on for now.  Larry Moran, prominent professor of biochemistry at the University of Toronto and inveterate defender of materialist evolution, dropped by and commented:

The problem with Kevin Laland and his colleagues is not that there’s no debate … it’s that there IS a furious debate and they’ve missed it entirely. The real ongoing debate is between adaptationists and those pluralists who accept Neutral Theory and the importance of random genetic drift.

Dr. Moran is certainly correct.  There is a furious debate between old-school “adaptationists” and those, like Moran, who reject the “gene-centric neo-darwinist paradigm.”  But my purpose in this post is not to take sides in that debate.  Instead, Moran’s observation put me in mind of a post I put up almost exactly two years ago:  Berlinski’s Question Remains Unanswered 

In a preceding post to that one I had asked evolutionists the following question:

I have a question for non-ID proponents only and it is very simple: Is there even one tenet of modern evolutionary theory that is universally agreed upon by the proponents of modern evolutionary theory?

I suspected that evolutionists would not be able to agree on any such tenant and sat back and waited for the responses to come in.  Responses did come in, and my suspicion was confirmed.  I reported on the conclusion of my little experiment as follows:

What I was really trying to get at was this: Is there any “core” proposition on which all proponents of modern evolutionary theory agree.  By “core” proposition, I do not mean basic facts of biology that pretty much everyone from YECs to Richard Dawkins agrees are true.  I mean a proposition upon which the theory stands or falls and [] sets it apart from other theories and accounts for its unique purported explanatory power.

I have in mind a proposition that would answer David Berlinski’s famous question:

“I disagree [with Paul R. Gross’ assertion] that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?”

Indeed. What does modern evolutionary theory offer in comparison? How can the theory ever hope to be as “solid as any explanation in science” when its proponents cannot seem to agree on a single tenet, the falsification of which would, in Berlinski’s words, shatter the theory?

Dr. Moran’s comments today confirm that Berlinski is still waiting for an answer to his question.

Dr. Moran has also written:

The 1940s version of evolutionary theory (“Modern Synthesis”) is no longer sufficient to explain what we know in the 21st century. For many biologists, the most important extensions to evolutionary theory took place in the 1970s with the incorporation of Neutral Theory (actually Nearly-Neutral Theory) and recognition of the importance of random genetic drift, especially in molecular evolution. Most people also realized that there was more to macroevolution than just lots of microevolution.

This is, of course, a corollary to my conclusion.  When the new school, as represented by Moran, and the old school (which Moran often uses Richard Dawkins to exemplify) cannot even agree on the relative importance of Darwin’s proposed mechanism for evolution (i.e., natural selection), we can be sure there is no universally agreed upon tenant of materialist evolution.

All of which brings me to a series of questions for Dr. Moran:

  1. Will he admit that Berlinski’s question remains unanswered?

 

  1. For decades Darwinists such as Dawkins got red in the face, stamped their feet, and shouted that their adaptationist theory of evolution was not just a theory but a fact fact fact!  Will Moran admit that they were wrong wrong wrong?

 

  1. And if the adapationist view – which was a rigid monolithic orthodoxy for decades – turned out to be wrong, shouldn’t we be skeptical when someone else comes along with their pet theory, gets red in the face, stamps their feet and shouts that it is fact fact fact?

 

Comments
Phinehas
Did anyone else catch a sudden whiff of equivocation?
You say "equivocation"; I say "shameless dodge." "to-may-to, to-mah-to"Barry Arrington
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
03:45 PM
3
03
45
PM
PDT
Moran @ 10 gives us the flip side of his shameless dodge at 8.Barry Arrington
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
03:41 PM
3
03
41
PM
PDT
Moran @ 8:
No. Adaptation and evolution by natural selection is a proven fact. There’s no evolutionary biologist who disagrees.
Shameless dodge Larry. You have expressed your disagreement with Dawkins many times on your blog. The question, as you well know, is whether adaptation is the primary driver. Adaptationists say yes. You say no. Or have you changed your mind and now admit that Dawkins has been right (and you have been wrong) all along.Barry Arrington
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
03:40 PM
3
03
40
PM
PDT
For decades Darwinists such as Dawkins got red in the face, stamped their feet, and shouted that their adaptationist theory of evolution was not just a theory but a fact fact fact! Will Moran admit that they were wrong wrong wrong?
Do you understand what neutralist and adaptationists argue about? No evolutionary biologist* denies that, say, the vast majority of the genome in animals is not under the influence of natural selection. Likewise, there are very few neutralists who would claim natural selection isn't responsible for the degree to which creatures fit their environment. So, evolutionary biologists can quite happily agree that evolution is a fact (modern creatures are related to ancient ones by common descent, and have arrived at their current traits by inheritance of ancient traits and modification over time), and that natural selection is a key driver of the modifications that make creatures fit their environment. Adaptationists and neutralists have different opinions about the proportion of organismal traits are the result of selection , but they agree about a great deal. (*unfortunately, a large number of molecular biologist do make this mistake)wd400
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
03:40 PM
3
03
40
PM
PDT
Moran @ 7:
It’s a really stupid question from someone who doesn’t understand biology.
You should probably clue your buddy Paul R. Gross in. He's the one, not Berlinski nor I, who believes that evolutionary theory is as solid as quantum electrodynamics and general relativity. I asked the question not because I believe there is any doubt as to the answer, as I hope the post makes clear. I ask the question to see whether you would agree with Gross' stupid assertion. I am glad to see you do not and that you understand that evolutionary biology is way down on the pecking order of science Barry Arrington
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
03:35 PM
3
03
35
PM
PDT
Adaptation and evolution by natural selection is a proven fact.
I think he means the Haeckel drawings ...Origenes
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
kurx78 @9: No modeling or simulation will prove anything unless they meet the criteria posted @1090 (see also 1091) in the thread "A third way of evolution?": https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/#comment-621816 All what modeling and simulation can do is help to understand how the biological systems work and confirm what many of us already know: that the complex complexity of the biological systems is even more complex than they thought.Dionisio
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
02:54 PM
2
02
54
PM
PDT
Adaptation and evolution by natural selection is a proven fact.
Did anyone else catch a sudden whiff of equivocation?Phinehas
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
02:48 PM
2
02
48
PM
PDT
"3. And if the adapationist view – which was a rigid monolithic orthodoxy for decades – turned out to be wrong, shouldn’t we be skeptical when someone else comes along with their pet theory, gets red in the face, stamps their feet and shouts that it is fact fact fact?" Evolution by natural selection isn't wrong, it's just insufficient as a complete description of evolution. There is abundant evidence for evolution by random genetic drift. That's also a fact. A complete modern version of evolutionary theory incorporates all known facts and all known mechanisms. That version has been common for almost 50 years. It's the one in all the modern evolutionary textbooks. You should certainly be skeptical of anyone who tells you in 2017 that natural selection is the only mechanism of evolution. And you should certainly be skeptical of any creationists who get red in their face and stamp their feet shouting that evolution is false. Many creationists will tell you both of these things at the same time.Larry Moran
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
02:24 PM
2
02
24
PM
PDT
Larry Moran says: "Yes, of course I’ll admit that. There is no mathematical theory of evolution that’s applies to everything in biology all the time and certainly no aspect of evolutionary theory that’s accurate to thirteen decimal places." I would be pretty awesome to have someday the computational power to run a simulation of natural selection and mutation (the ones available are too simple and crude for my taste). But as a software engineer I've realized how complex it can be the task of emulating chemical and biological processes.kurx78
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
02:22 PM
2
02
22
PM
PDT
"2. For decades Darwinists such as Dawkins got red in the face, stamped their feet, and shouted that their adaptationist theory of evolution was not just a theory but a fact fact fact! Will Moran admit that they were wrong wrong wrong?" No. Adaptation and evolution by natural selection is a proven fact. There's no evolutionary biologist who disagrees.Larry Moran
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
02:15 PM
2
02
15
PM
PDT
"1. Will he admit that Berlinski’s question remains unanswered?" Yes, of course I'll admit that. There is no mathematical theory of evolution that's applies to everything in biology all the time and certainly no aspect of evolutionary theory that's accurate to thirteen decimal places. It's a really stupid question from someone who doesn't understand biology.Larry Moran
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
02:14 PM
2
02
14
PM
PDT
Bob O'H "Eh? Is there anyone who doesn’t believe that both drift and selection happen? That’s even implicit in what you wrote." Eh? Did anyone say that either school believes natural selection does not happen? Did anyone say that either school believes that drift does not happen? Read it again Bob. This time for comprehension. Here's a hint: Focus on the phrase "relative importance."Barry Arrington
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
01:43 PM
1
01
43
PM
PDT
Defense. Big D. Dr Larry is all Defense. No offense Larry. And a crappy defense to boot: "Show me evidence that evolution is guided" What? Mountains of evidence! I mean c'mon. The good Doctor needs to ask for proof. Proof is a good defense. Tough to break THAT formation. But how about some offensive play Larry? Let's see some evidence that evolution is unguided. Or better yet - some proof.ppolish
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
01:40 PM
1
01
40
PM
PDT
This website should be honored to have such a distinguished Canadian biochemistry professor as a commenter. A couple of years ago he wrote that he won't have any discussion with me because I don't ask honest questions, but I still respect his vast knowledge in his academic field and wish he would like to share at least a small part of it here, so that some of us could learn from it. Maybe that could still happen?Dionisio
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
01:16 PM
1
01
16
PM
PDT
When the new school, as represented by Moran, and the old school (which Moran often uses Richard Dawkins to exemplify) cannot even agree on the relative importance of Darwin’s proposed mechanism for evolution (i.e., natural selection), we can be sure there is no universally agreed upon tenant of materialist evolution.
Eh? Is there anyone who doesn't believe that both drift and selection happen? That's even implicit in what you wrote.Bob O'H
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
12:05 PM
12
12
05
PM
PDT
Can anyone explain why Dr. Moran believes that neutral theory is required?bill cole
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
11:25 AM
11
11
25
AM
PDT
fact fact fact
This made me chuckle. In two sets of three times. Andrewasauber
May 10, 2017
May
05
May
10
10
2017
11:11 AM
11
11
11
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply