Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 62: The Systems (and Systems Engineering) Perspective — a first step to understanding design in/of our world

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Our frame going forward, is knowledge reformation driven by application of the adapted JoHari Window, given obvious, fallacy-riddled ideological captivity of the intellectual high ground of our civilisation:

Ideological captivity of the high ground also calls forth the perspective that we need to map the high ground:

If you want some context on validity:

So, we are now looking at ideologically driven captivity of the intellectual high ground and related institutions of our civilisation, leading to compromising the integrity of the knowledge commons through fallacy riddled evolutionary materialistic scientism and related ideologies. Not a happy thought but that is what we have to deal with and find a better way forward.

We already know, knowledge (weak, everyday sense) is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief, and that it is defeasible on finding gaps or errors that force reworking. Classically, that happened twice with Physics, the shattering of the Scholastic view through the Scientific revolution, and the modern physics revolution that showed limitations of newtonian dynamics and classical electromagnetism. Physics, like Humpty Dumpty [and the underlying fallen Roman Empire], has never been put back together again.

But, how do we proceed?

Through systems thinking and systems engineering, on several levels.

First, NASA defines:

“systems engineering” is defined as a methodical, multi-disciplinary approach for the design, realization, technical management, operations, and retirement of a system. A “system” is the combination of elements that function together to produce the capability required to meet a need. The elements include all hardware, software, equipment, facilities, personnel [–> thus, these are sociotechnical systems and bridge engineering and management], processes, and procedures needed for this purpose; that is, all things required to produce system-level results. The results include system-level qualities, properties, characteristics, functions, behavior, and performance. The value added by the system as a whole, beyond that contributed independently by the parts, is primarily created by the relationship among the parts; that is, how they are interconnected. [–> functional, information rich organisation adds value] It is a way of looking at the “big picture” when making technical decisions. It is a way of achieving stakeholder functional, physical, and operational performance requirements in the intended use environment over the planned life of the system within cost, schedule, and other constraints. It is a methodology that supports the containment of the life cycle cost of a system. In other words, systems engineering is a logical way of thinking.

Systems engineering is the art and science of developing an operable system capable of meeting requirements within often opposed constraints. Systems engineering is a holistic, integrative discipline

NASA has a big scoping chart for Systems Engineering in a project/programme management context:

We can look at the Systems Engineering Vee Model (HT: ResearchGate):

Another view, notice, the implied, layer cake modularity of systems, from physical materials to base devices and components [consider a transistor or a bolt], to function units, to system modules and organisation to overall functionality based on information rich organisation:

U/D, Oct 13: We may add a chart on a key subset of SE, reverse engineering, RE:

A summary of RE, HT: Global Spec (We may often start with step 2, and obviously Step 1 has a typo for purpose, a little RE exercise in itself.)

One of the most significant RE-FE exercises was the clean room duplication of the IBM PC’s operating framework that allowed lawsuit-proof clones to be built that then led to the explosion of PC-compatible machines. By the time this was over, IBM sold out to Lenovo and went back to its core competency, Mainframes. Where, now, a mainframe today is in effect a high end packaged server farm; the microprocessor now rules the world, including the supercomputer space.

Here, let us add, a Wikipedia confession as yet another admission against interest:

Reverse engineering (also known as backwards engineering or back engineering) is a process or method through which one attempts to understand through deductive reasoning [–> actually, a poor phrase for inference to best explanation, i.e. abductive reasoning] how a previously made device, process, system, or piece of software accomplishes a task with very little (if any) [–> initial] insight into exactly how it does so. It is essentially the process of opening up or dissecting [–> telling metaphor] a system [–> so, SE applies] to see how it works, in order to duplicate or enhance it. Depending on the system under consideration and the technologies employed, the knowledge gained during reverse engineering can help with repurposing obsolete objects, doing security analysis, or learning how something works.[1][2]

Although the process is specific to the object on which it is being performed, all reverse engineering processes consist of three basic steps: Information extraction, Modeling, and Review. Information extraction refers to the practice of gathering all relevant information [–> telling word, identify the FSCO/I present in the entity, and of course TRIZ is highly relevant esp its library of key design strategies] for performing the operation. Modeling refers to the practice of combining the gathered information into an abstract model [–> that is, the inferred best explanation], which can be used as a guide for designing the new object or system. [–> guess why I think within this century we should be able to build a cell de novo?] Review refers to the testing of the model to ensure the validity of the chosen abstract.[1] Reverse engineering is applicable in the fields of computer engineering, mechanical engineering, design, electronic engineering, software engineering, chemical engineering,[3] and systems biology.[4] [More serious discussion, here.]

We can see that

one paradigm for science is, reverse engineering nature.

This directly connects to, technology as using insights from RE of nature to forward engineer [FE] our own useful systems. And of course that takes us to a theme of founders of modern science, that they were “thinking God’s thoughts after him.”

In that SE-RE-FE context, we can bring on board issues of systems architecture and related matters, as I commented earlier today:

An Analogue Computer network with two chained integrators

Computer architecture at first level, is the study of the assembly/machine language view, i.e. information, its processing [including coding, algorithmic processes etc], associated function units, their organisation. Underlying physical science and technique to effect these units carries us to the layer cake, modular network, systems view. With analogue computers, the focus is on continuous state function units and how they represent key mathematical operations [famously, integration] that then integrate in a process flow network to handle continuous state information bearing signals and materials or states and phases of dynamic stochastic entities etc. This extends the context to instrumentation, control and systems engineering as well as telecommunications, bringing in frequency domain transforms and approaches as well as state/phase space approaches. These give us fresh eyes to see and more objectively understand the molecular nanotech marvels in the cell.

Obviously, this immediately allows us to reconsider the cell as a marvel of nanotechnology, e.g. here is its metabolic framework, part of how it is a metabolising, molecular nanotech self replicating automaton:

Just the top left corner, already involves a complex algorithmic process using coded information:

Protein Synthesis (HT: Wiki Media)

Then, there is the communication network this expresses, as Yockey pointed out:

Yockey’s analysis of protein synthesis as a code-based communication process

All of this, we have known for decades, but now it is time to independently ponder it as a system and understand how this exemplifies and instantiates such system elements. We can immediately set aside crude fallacies of appeals to dismissible analogies, once we ponder, say, the genetic code as just that, a code:

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins and specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

Just for reference, by fair use doctrine, here is Lehninger’s comparison:

By starting from a systems perspective, we can then rebuild knowledge on a sounder footing than the present ideologically driven institutional capture. END

Comments
Relatd, meanwhile, we can forge ahead and address the emerging issues. First, the systems engineering perspective for example helps us to see scientific investigation as reverse engineering the world. From that we see how engineering is using the results and often imitates phenomena (sonar and radar vs bats and whales) or discovers that its principles and strategies are present in the world (finding algorithmic code and NC machines in the cell). This lends confidence in recognising design patterns and cases in the world. Thus, Lehninger and heirs have a point when they recognise that DNA is as much text as an Assyrian artifact. KFkairosfocus
October 14, 2022
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Jerry at 18, You still don't see it? The COMMITMENT here is to repeat Evolution good, ID bad - forever. And to ignore any comments like yours as if they were never written.relatd
October 13, 2022
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Which phenomena are you suggesting that methodological naturalism is the wrong approach to investigate?
None. It just that the tools of science may not have an answer to the phenomena. So one has to look elsewhere for a possible answer. Every scientist admits there are phenomena that methodological naturalism cannot explain if it found they existed. ID does not suggest that typical scientific methods not be applied to every phenomenon. But there may be limits to what science can explain.         That’s why ID is science+. It’s amazing I have to say this since it so obvious to either side from the beginning.jerry
October 13, 2022
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AF, kindly note the Lehninger image on a stele vs DNA as text, in OP. KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2022
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F/N: I updated OP to add on reverse engineering. There is a diagram. KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2022
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AF, 1- here is RG, now that they played the paywall game https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257662343_The_Role_of_Metaphysical_Naturalism_in_Science 2- The assertion, cannot understand -- at what level? -- what is more complex than oneself fails the commonplace experience test: we have a useful measure of understanding of a world involving billions of creatures like ourselves, cumulatively far more complex than we are. 3- Levels of understanding leads to recognising a difference between bounded error prone rationality and omniscience. Where the debates we have are mostly about the first three cells: the now needlessly broken knowledge commons, the imposition of error-warped agendas under colour of knowledge, the rise of a reformation movement. 4- The unknown unknowns, known only to God take in what omniscience knows but also challenge us to open up frontiers through research. Not least as what we don't know can hurt us badly. 5- As a further challenge, we cannot exhaustively understand God, but we can understand him as an inherently good, utterly wise creator, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of respect, of loyalty and of the responsible, reasonable service of doing the good that accords with our evident nature. 6- The adapted JoHari window does address unknown and known unknowns. 7- Then there is what we refuse to acknowledge. KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2022
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BTW, KF, your Johari window idea overlooks (insert pun here) one important and unbreachable fact. No sentient being (and I include you in that category) is capable of understanding any concept more complex than itself.Alan Fox
October 13, 2022
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Your link is broken, KF.Alan Fox
October 13, 2022
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Oh the ignoance!
The ASSUMPTION made by brainwashed Biologists had to be discarded to make actual progress in identifying the sources of human disease. How are they doing that? By looking at Junk DNA. By studying it. Not throwing it out as ‘leftovers from our long [alleged] period of Evolution.’ By studying it as opposed to ‘it doesn’t code for proteins so it’s useless.’ Those so-called non-coding regions are yielding vital information about human disease, The “natural” approach discarded them – without looking.
Some people seem impervious to understanding. "Junk" DNA is not non-coding DNA. Non-coding DNA distinguishes DNA in genomes that do not get synthesized into proteins. About 1-2% of the human genome codes for proteins. Non-coding DNA, whilst not carrying sequences that become proteins, is nevertheless shown to be functional. Junk DNA is any DNA sequence that does not play a functional role in development, physiology, or some other organism-level capacity. [From here] I'd add more, but the Wikipedia article covers the basics.Alan Fox
October 13, 2022
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AF, actually, ANY phenomena as it is an expression of jumping the shark, ideological captivity. Mahner: http://www.springerlink.com/content/b04008g7w0781308/fulltext.html#CR31
. . . metaphysical naturalism is a constitutive ontological principle of science in that the general empirical methods of science, such as observation, measurement and experiment, and thus the very production of empirical evidence, presuppose a no-supernature principle [--> recall, we are dealing with what is institutionally dominant, it matters not that some would disagree, this is a statement of where the Overton Window lies and what the power brokers think they have power to lock out, regardless of actual merits] . . . . Metaphysical or ontological naturalism (henceforth: ON) ["roughly" and "simply"] is the view that all that exists is our lawful spatiotemporal world. Its negation is of course supernaturalism: the view that our lawful spatiotemporal world is not all that exists because there is another non-spatiotemporal world transcending the natural one, whose inhabitants—usually considered to be intentional beings—are not subject to natural laws . . . . Both scientists and science educators keep being challenged by creationists of all shades, who try hard to reintroduce supernaturalist explanations into biology and into all the areas of science that concern the origin of the world in general and of human beings in particular. [--> Confession by projection? No merely human power class has a permanent empire. This too will fall.]
[--> of course he here glides by the point Plato highlighted in The Laws Bk X, natural vs supernatural, and the linked point that it is empirically well founded that there are signs of intelligently directed configuration as cause, where a major goal and condition of credibility of science is that it seeks empirically supported truth about our world. Ideological capture of science and science education potentially has a ruinous cost.]
A major aspect of this debate is the role of ON in science . . . . ON is not part of a deductive argument in the sense that if we collected all the statements or theories of science and used them as premises, then ON would logically follow. After all, scientific theories do not explicitly talk about anything metaphysical such as the presence or absence of supernatural entities: they simply refer to natural entities and processes only. Therefore, ON rather is a tacit metaphysical supposition of science, an ontological postulate. It is part of a metascientific framework or, if preferred, of the metaparadigm of science that guides the construction and evaluation of theories, and that helps to explain why science works and succeeds in studying and explaining the world. [--> cat out of the bag.] ["The role of Metaphysical Naturalism in Science," Science and Education, 2011]
KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2022
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F/N: On the stolen valour, stolen achjevement point, to forestall a cheap turnabout, I put on the table an excerpt from Dan Peterson:
Sometimes the most obvious facts are the easiest to overlook. Here is one that ought to be stunningly obvious: science as an organized, sustained enterprise arose only once in the history of Earth. Where was that? Although other civilizations have contributed technical achievements or isolated innovations, the invention of science as a cumulative, rigorous, systematic, and ongoing investigation into the laws of nature occurred only in Europe; that is, in the civilization then known as Christendom. Science arose and flourished in a civilization that, at the time, was profoundly and nearly exclusively Christian in its mental outlook. There are deep reasons for that, and they are inherent in the Judeo-Christian view of the world which, principally in its Christian manifestation, formed the European mind. As Stark observes, the Christian view depicted God as "a rational, responsive, dependable, and omnipotent being and the universe as his personal creation, thus having a rational, lawful, stable structure, awaiting human comprehension." That was not true of belief systems elsewhere. A view that the universe is uncreated, has been around forever, and is just "what happens to be" does not suggest that it has fundamental principles that are rational and discoverable. Other belief systems have considered the natural world to be an insoluble mystery, conceived of it as a realm in which multiple, arbitrary gods are at work, or thought of it in animistic terms. None of these views will, or did, give rise to a deep faith that there is a lawful order imparted by a divine creator that can and should be discovered.
[--> Clue: why do we still talk about "Laws" of nature? Doesn't such historically rooted language not suggest: a law-giver? (And indeed, that is precisely what Newton discussed at length in his General Scholium to his Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy.) Of course, that will not move the deeply indoctrinated and polarised, but it is a clear marker to those who are willing to think more open-mindedly.]
Recent scholarship in the history of science reveals that this commitment to rational, empirical investigation of God's creation is not simply a product of the "scientific revolution" of the 16th and 17th centuries, but has profound roots going back at least to the High Middle Ages . . . . Albertus Magnus -- prodigious scholar, naturalist, teacher of Thomas Aquinas, and member of the Dominican order -- affirmed in his De Mineralibus that the purpose of science is "not simply to accept the statements of others, that is, what is narrated by people, but to investigate the causes that are at work in nature for themselves." Another 13th-century figure, Robert Grosseteste, who was chancellor of Oxford and Bishop of Lincoln, has been identified as "the first man ever to write down a complete set of steps for performing a scientific experiment," according to Woods. WHEN THE DISCOVERIES of science exploded in number and importance in the 1500s and 1600s, the connection with Christian belief was again profound. Many of the trailblazing scientists of that period when science came into full bloom were devout Christian believers, and declared that their work was inspired by a desire to explore God's creation and discover its glories. Perhaps the greatest scientist in history, Sir Isaac Newton, was a fervent Christian who wrote over a million words on theological subjects. Other giants of science and mathematics were similarly devout: Boyle, Descartes, Kepler, Leibniz, Pascal. To avoid relying on what might be isolated examples, Stark analyzed the religious views of the 52 leading scientists from the time of Copernicus until the end of the 17th century. Using a methodology that probably downplayed religious belief, he found that 32 were "devout"; 18 were at least "conventional" in their religious belief; and only two were "skeptics." More than a quarter were themselves ecclesiastics: "priests, ministers, monks, canons, and the like." Down through the 19th century, many of the leading figures in science were thoroughgoing Christians. A partial list includes Babbage, Dalton, Faraday, Herschel, Joule, Lyell, Maxwell, Mendel, and Thompson (Lord Kelvin). A survey of the most eminent British scientists near the end of the 19th century found that nearly all were members of the established church or affiliated with some other church. In short, scientists who were committed Christians include men often considered to be fathers of the fields of astronomy, atomic theory, calculus, chemistry, computers, electricity, genetics, geology, mathematics, and physics. In the late 1990s, a survey found that about 40 percent of American scientists believe in a personal God and an afterlife -- a percentage that is basically unchanged since the early 20th century. A listing of eminent 20th-century scientists who were religious believers would be far too voluminous to include here -- so let's not bring coals to Newcastle, but simply note that the list would be large indeed, including Nobel Prize winners. Far from being inimical to science, then, the Judeo-Christian worldview is the only belief system that actually produced it. Scientists who (in Boyle's words) viewed nature as "the immutable workmanship of the omniscient Architect" were the pathfinders who originated the scientific enterprise. The assertion that intelligent design is automatically "not science" because it may support the concept of a creator is a statement of materialist philosophy, not of any intrinsic requirement of science itself. The redefinition of science in materialist terms -- never wholly successful, but probably now the predominant view -- required the confluence of several intellectual currents. The attack on religious belief in general, and Christianity in particular, has been underway for more than two centuries . . . . IT WAS THE AWE-INSPIRING SUCCESS of science itself, nurtured for centuries in a Christian belief system, that caused many to turn to it as the comprehensive source of explanation. With the mighty technology spawned by science in his hands, man could exalt himself, it seemed, and dispense with God. Although Darwin was by no means the sole cause of the apotheosis of materialist science, his theories gave it crucial support. It is perhaps not altogether a coincidence that the year 1882, in which Darwin died, found Nietzsche proclaiming that "God is dead...and we have killed him." The capture of science (in considerable measure) by materialist philosophy was aided by the hasty retreat of many theists. There are those who duck any conflict by declaring that science and religion occupy non-overlapping domains or, to use a current catchphrase, separate "magisteria." One hears this dichotomy expressed in apothegms such as, "Science asks how; religion asks why." In this view, science is the domain of hard facts and objective truth. Religion is the realm of subjective belief and faith. Science is publicly verifiable, and is the only kind of truth that can be allowed in the public square. Religion is private, unverifiable, and cannot be permitted to intrude into public affairs, including education. The two magisteria do not conflict, because they never come into contact with each other. To achieve this peace, all the theists have to do is interpret away many of the central beliefs of the Judeo-Christian tradition. This retreat makes some theists happy, because they can avoid a fight that they feel ill-equipped to win, and can retire to a cozy warren of warm, fuzzy irrelevancy. It also makes materialists happy, because the field has been ceded to them. As ID advocate Phillip Johnson remarks acerbically:
Politically astute scientific naturalists feel no hostility toward those religious leaders who implicitly accept the key naturalistic doctrine that supernatural powers do not actually affect the course of nature. In fact, many scientific leaders disapprove of aggressive atheists like Richard Dawkins, who seem to be asking for trouble by picking fights with religious people who only want to surrender with dignity.
But the ID theorists do not go gentle into that good night. That's what's different about intelligent design. ID says that the best evidence we have shows that life is the product of a real intelligent agent, actually working in space and time, and that the designer's hand can be detected, scientifically and mathematically, by what we know about the kinds of things that are produced only by intelligence. It is making scientific claims about the real world. Because it relies on objective fact and scientific reasoning, ID seeks admission to the public square. Rather than retreating to the gaseous realm of the subjective, it challenges the materialist conception of science on its own turf. It thus threatens materialism generally, with all that that entails for morality, law, culture -- and even for what it means to be human. THOSE WHO NOW OCCUPY the public square will fight to keep possession of it. The advocates of Darwinian materialism believe that they are in possession of The Truth, and are perfectly willing to invoke the power of the state to suppress competing views [--> which should be a big warning-sign that something has gone very wrong] . . . ["What's the Big Deal About Intelligent Design?" By Dan Peterson, American Spectator, Published 12/22/2005; also cf his earlier popular level summary on ID here. (HT: Wayback Machine.)]
That can be backed up in detail, but let this stand up for now as a first summary. KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2022
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Jerry suggests an amended version of Seversky's declaration;
We acknowledge that the Intelligent Design rejection of methodological naturalism in favor of intelligence explanations for a small number of phenomena is a form of skepticism [my emphasis] similar to that of which science is based.
A small number of phenomena? I'm curious, Jerry. Which phenomena are you suggesting that methodological naturalism is the wrong approach to investigate?Alan Fox
October 13, 2022
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Sev, do you realise how much you gave away, by how unresponsive you have been to not only the substance in the OP or discussion over the years or even the weak argument correctives? Message: you felt a need to lay out the standard, strawman and ad hom laced talking points to trigger the standard evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller narrative, to dismiss what you object to. That game is now over. On your talking points, in -- "deconstructive" -- steps of thought: >>We acknowledge the existence of design in the Universe. We do it.>> 1- Why, yes, just by composing a complex text you exhibited a central sign of design, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I], y'know, the same that objectors every now and then pretend is not real or observable, cannot be defined to their satisfaction, can be dismissed on the usual "no evidence" claim. 2- But in fact you know just as well as we do that such FSCO/I exists and we have a trillion member base of observations of its only actually observed source, intelligently directed configuration, let's abbreviate IDC, aka "design." Also, requiring "intelligence":
Merriam Webster: Definition of intelligence 1a(1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (such as tests) . . . 3 : the act of understanding : comprehension [--> notably, creative use of language expresses intelligence]
3- Where, too, we all know that simple analysis of blind search challenge in large config spaces beyond the inference threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits [3.27^10^150 to 1.07*10^301 possible configurational states] shows that the only plausible source is such IDC. 4- That is, we have a well tested highly reliable sign of design and are epistemically entitled to infer that the best explanation -- absent clear actually observed counter-example of blind dynamic stochastic process [aka blind chance and/or mechanical necessity] producing FSCO/I -- on observing FSCO/I is IDC. 5- Of course, neither you nor many other longstanding critics have ever provided an actual counter example that meets the actual observed cause Newton's rules that work to prune speculation pretending to be observationally anchored science. 6- In short, you and ever so many other objectors know you have no answer to this central observationally anchored inference on good, reliable sign. So, you rhetorically dodge, set up and knock over a strawman caricature instead. (Notably, in the OP, Lehninger and/or heirs give a direct comparison between an Assyrian Stele and DNA in a cell.) 7- Further, that design exists and designers exist implies that responsible, rational significant freedom exists, which carries even more with it as this points to the logic of being of a contingent world with such creatures and its causal roots. Especially, with a world full of signs of fine tuning. 8- Of course, the Lehninger example is telling: beyond reasonable, responsible dispute, applying reverse engineering principles [REP] of systems engineering [SE], we see complex, alphanumeric, algorithmic code in the heart of the cell, implying language, text -- they explicitly discuss text -- stepwise goal directed process, numerically controlled molecular nanotech machinery in sophisticated organisation and fulfilling a metabolising, von Neumann kinematic self replicator automaton. On RE, Wikipedia confesses:
Reverse engineering (also known as backwards engineering or back engineering) is a process or method through which one attempts to understand through deductive reasoning [--> actually, a poor phrase for inference to best explanation, i.e. abductive reasoning] how a previously made device, process, system, or piece of software accomplishes a task with very little (if any) [--> initial] insight into exactly how it does so. It is essentially the process of opening up or dissecting [--> telling metaphor] a system [--> so, SE applies] to see how it works, in order to duplicate or enhance it. Depending on the system under consideration and the technologies employed, the knowledge gained during reverse engineering can help with repurposing obsolete objects, doing security analysis, or learning how something works.[1][2] Although the process is specific to the object on which it is being performed, all reverse engineering processes consist of three basic steps: Information extraction, Modeling, and Review. Information extraction refers to the practice of gathering all relevant information [--> telling word, identify the FSCO/I present in the entity, and of course TRIZ is highly relevant esp its library of key design strategies] for performing the operation. Modeling refers to the practice of combining the gathered information into an abstract model [--> that is, the inferred best explanation], which can be used as a guide for designing the new object or system. [--> guess why I think within this century we should be able to build a cell de novo?] Review refers to the testing of the model to ensure the validity of the chosen abstract.[1] Reverse engineering is applicable in the fields of computer engineering, mechanical engineering, design, electronic engineering, software engineering, chemical engineering,[3] and systems biology.[4] [More serious discussion, here.]
9- Thus, replete with FSCO/I including the additionality of the vNSR facility. See, REP and so SE at work? Language and goal directed process are particularly strong signs of design. Designers, for example have goals. >>We acknowledge the possibility of extraterrestrial design but we have no evidence for it at this time.>> 10- In the face of a real SETI wow signal, right in the cells of our bodies, with multiple Nobel Prize winners on public record, the no evidence stunt is pulled out. >>We acknowledge the appearance of design in nature>> 11- Oh yes, the invitation to use REP of SE is that blatant. >> but only the appearance based on analogies with human artefacts.>> 12- A twisted caricature of the design inference on observed, tested, reliable signs and refusal to recognise REP of SE. 13- We instantiate design, but manifestly, we are contingent creatures with signs of design in our bodies, pointing to onward designers. And, for millennia there has been an ongoing literature on the blatantly manifest possibility of other designers so the penumbra of objectors cannot be ignorant of this. 14- So, to the signs we should go. 15- Where of course the analogies stunt is a way to wave away what for example Lehninger and heirs highlight as a case of parallel instantiation. As in, right there in the OP. >>We acknowledge that the great complexity observed in the natural world still lacks a compelling explanation of origins.>> 16- Translated, refusing to attend to REP of SE and to telling signs of design, we must concede that we have no empirically well founded blind chance and/or mechanical necessity driven explanation of causal origin of:
* a fine tuned cosmos fitted for C-Chem, aqueous medium, cell based life * the sophisticated polymer chem in said cells * the complex integrated system constituting a molecular nanotech metabolising automaton with vNSR * the coded alphanumeric information and text in D/RNA, expressing inter alia algorithms with nanotech execution machines such as the ribosome * thus, OoL, after a century of active research * thence, too, Oo body plans, OoBP * also, origin of our own body plan and mindedness enabling rational responsible freedom and ability to create knowledge * and more
>>We acknowledge that the naturalistic approach to science has proven more fruitful than any alternatives.>> 17- The usual, we succeeded in reverse engineering nature claim, but much of this is stolen valour and stolen achievement, pretending that Science is applied atheism. In fact a simple survey of the origin and outworking of modern science will show this to be a fundamentally dishonest caricature. 18- Philip Johnson's reply to Lewontin's cat out of the bag moment is telling:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original -- the context is Lewontin in NYRB] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence.
[--> notice, the power of an undisclosed, question-begging, controlling assumption . . . often put up as if it were a mere reasonable methodological constraint; emphasis added. Let us note how Rational Wiki, so-called, presents it:
"Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses." [NB: I am aware that Rational Wiki has backed away, un-announced, from the cat-out-of-the-bag direct phrasing that was in place a few years ago. That historic phrasing is still valid as a summary of what is going on.]
Of course, this ideological imposition on science that subverts it from freely seeking the empirically, observationally anchored truth about our world pivots on the deception of side-stepping the obvious fact since Plato in The Laws Bk X, that there is a second, readily empirically testable and observable alternative to "natural vs [the suspect] supernatural." Namely, blind chance and/or mechanical necessity [= the natural] vs the ART-ificial, the latter acting by evident intelligently directed configuration. [Cf Plantinga's reply here and here.] And as for the god of the gaps canard, the issue is, inference to best explanation across competing live option candidates. If chance and necessity is a candidate, so is intelligence acting by art through design. And it is not an appeal to ever- diminishing- ignorance to point out that design, rooted in intelligent action, routinely configures systems exhibiting functionally specific, often fine tuned complex organisation and associated information. Nor, that it is the only observed cause of such, nor that the search challenge of our observed cosmos makes it maximally implausible that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity can account for such.]
That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
19- Of course, dodged, side stepped and evaded for twenty-five years. 20- Instead, we apply a more realistic paradigm: Science is in many regards, reverse engineering of our world. >>We acknowledge that the Intelligent Design/Creationist>> 21- Here comes ad hominem by slanderous conflation of two fundamentally distinct movements. 22- Creationists generally refers to people who start with the Bible as a text viewed as report of the Creator and seek to explain phenomena on that thesis. The design inference is a REP of SE exercise, on grounds that we can see on the face, well known signs of design. So, let us do RE of nature, asking if it makes sense and is effective, 23- ans, yes especially if science seeks to learn truth about our world on open ended empirical investigation -- rather than imposing an a priori ideological frame such as Lewontin-Crick-Monod-Mahner-NSTA-NAS evolutionary materialistic scientism. Methodologically. completely different. 24- Once the general public understands that science has been ideologically, politically captured to advance radical secularist agendas, there will be hell to pay, for good reason. Especially given that it is the taxes of the despised, ruthlessly manipulated hoi polloi that have been funding this mutiny on the ship of state. 25- Let me venture a suggestion, the jumping the shark moment is going to be the mismanaged pandemic with its ideological capture of the lab and medical coat. >>rejection of methodological naturalism in favor of creationist explanations>> 26- Ad hom laced strawman caricature and slander sustained in the teeth of longstanding, repeated correction. 27- Narrative like this will always eventually fall in the face of truth. >> is a form of selective hyper-skepticism>> 28- A silly attempt at turnspeech, turnabout projection. 29- Pointing out that abduction controlled by requiring that suggested causes be actually seen to work, is prudence requiring adequate warrant per observation, not hyperskepticism. 30- But, thanks for the confession by projection to the other. >>similar to that of which science is accused.>> 31- Evolutionary Materialistic scientism and its implicit theme that science is applied atheism, is not equal to science. 32- The pretence that observed hyperskepticism, such as "EXTRAORDINARY claims require extraordinary [--> adequate] evidence," is "science" has long since passed its sell-by date. KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2022
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Sev, if we needed confirmation on the point, you just gave it . . . DV, overnight. KFkairosfocus
October 12, 2022
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Seversky at 4, Nonsense. At the Mayo Clinic and elsewhere, guess what? The ASSUMPTION made by brainwashed Biologists had to be discarded to make actual progress in identifying the sources of human disease. How are they doing that? By looking at Junk DNA. By studying it. Not throwing it out as 'leftovers from our long [alleged] period of Evolution.' By studying it as opposed to 'it doesn't code for proteins so it's useless.' Those so-called non-coding regions are yielding vital information about human disease, The "natural" approach discarded them - without looking.relatd
October 12, 2022
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We acknowledge etc.
Actually, a mantra that ID pretty much agrees with but the distortion creeps in at the end It should be
We acknowledge that the Intelligent Design rejection of methodological naturalism in favor of intelligence explanations for a small number of phenomena is a form of skepticism similar to that of which science is based.
jerry
October 12, 2022
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We acknowledge the existence of design in the Universe. We do it. We acknowledge the possibility of extraterrestrial design but we have no evidence for it at this time. We acknowledge the appearance of design in nature but only the appearance based on analogies with human artefacts. We acknowledge that the great complexity observed in the natural world still lacks a compelling explanation of origins. We acknowledge that the naturalistic approach to science has proven more fruitful than any alternatives. We acknowledge that the Intelligent Design/Creationist rejection of methodological naturalism in favor of creationist explanations is a form of selective hyper-skepticism similar to that of which science is accused.Seversky
October 12, 2022
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F/N3: From Acknowledgements, to help us understand the significance and weight of Lehninger:
Fifty years ago, Al Lehninger published the ?rst edition of Biochemistry, de?ning the basic shape of biochemistry courses worldwide for generations. We are honored to have been able to carry on the Lehninger tradition since his passing in 1986, now introducing the eighth (our seventh) edition of Lehninger Principles of Biochemistry.
FYI KFkairosfocus
October 12, 2022
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F/N: I added the Lehninger comparison of a Cuneiform Stele with DNA bursting out of a bacterium.kairosfocus
October 12, 2022
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L&FP, 62: The Systems (and Systems Engineering) Perspective — a first step to understanding design in/of our worldkairosfocus
October 12, 2022
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