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Lutheran religious studies prof asks, Is methodological naturalism racist?

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Robert F. Shedinger came across an open access 2020 paper in Social Psychology of Education, “Why are there so few ethnic minorities in ecology and evolutionary biology? Challenges to inclusion and the role of sense of belonging” which brought up something you are not likely to hear from the
Darwin Lobby:

It is well established that people of color are poorly represented in STEM fields compared with their representation in the larger population. That is for a host of complex sociological and economic reasons. But even taking this into consideration, the authors note that African Americans are even more poorly represented in EEB [ecology and evolutionary biology] fields in comparison with non-EEB fields of biology. This extremely poor representation in EEB cannot be explained by the factors leading to underrepresentation in STEM fields, so there must be something else going on.

To find out what, the authors surveyed a sample of college undergraduates from different racial and ethnic groups about their attitudes towards STEM in general and EEB in particular. The findings point to a number of factors, especially among African Americans, leading to a sense of not belonging in the culture of the EEB community. Two of these factors were a greater tendency toward religiosity and moral objections to evolution.

Surprisingly, and contrary to the expectations of the authors, African American (as well as Latino) undergraduates expressed a greater desire than white students to seek advanced education in ecology and evolutionary biology. Yet despite their interest level, the perceived lack of belonging they would experience in the EEB community appears to prevent their actual pursuit of advanced education (in 2014 African Americans earned fewer than 2 percent of PhDs granted in EEB fields but 5.1 percent in non-EEB subfields of biology).

As the authors note, African Americans consistently score higher on surveys of religiosity than the general population. This will not be surprising to anyone familiar with the African American church tradition. But African American undergraduates seem to be aware of the absolute requirement that EEB research be done in accordance with methodological (and de facto metaphysical) naturalism. Their religious inclinations will therefore be in conflict with the culture within the EEB community and it will be difficult for them to feel a sense of belonging in that community. The same with their moral objections to evolution, moral objections that are well founded in the African American experience (see Human Zoos). The demands of methodological naturalism thus become an impediment to the greater participation of people of color in ecology and evolutionary biology. What insights might we be losing as a result?

Robert F. Shedinger, “Is Methodological Naturalism Racist?” at Evolution News and Science Today (August 27, 2021)

When Shedinger asks, “What insights might we be losing as a result?”, one wants to ask, “Who is the ‘we’”? The Darwinians don’t want insights; they want control. Yes, the rest of us are losing insights but that hardly counts. Breaking the stranglehold sounds like a team effort.

It’s an interesting discussion of the findings in the light of the recent op-ed in Scientific American claiming that creationism was based on white supremacy.

See also: At Evolution News and Science Today: The casual racism of Charles Darwin. Shedinger calls Allison Hopper’s piece in Scientific American, “startlingly vacuous,” which raises — once again — the question of why on earth the mag published it. It’s not as if there is no scholarship on the topic of Darwin and racism. Did the editors not want to address that scholarship? Well, we can’t read minds but we can make some reasonable guesses. How about: Create a big uproar and hope everyone will focus on that and not on the topic at hand? Shedinger also notes perceptively, “One does not become racist because of the view one holds on human origins. One becomes racist for other complex reasons and then reads that racism back into whatever view on human origins you hold.”

Comments
Bob O'H:
It conflicts with notions of God giving us free will, though.
Only to those with very limited minds.ET
September 18, 2021
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LCD @ 222 - it seems that you have a very different idea about what killing is. I don't think it's one many other people would agree with: by your definition, killing is impossible because we all have immortal souls. That makes not breaking one of the 10 commandments a bit easier, at least.Bob O'H
September 18, 2021
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SA @ 216 -
Life does not belong to us. That’s the essential point for every human on earth to think about and accept. The life of Bob O’H doesn’t belong to you – as strange as that may seem. You didn’t create your own life. You also didn’t create Bob O’H. That person was created and given to “you” – even the “you” here is not something you made. If your own life belongs to your creator, then it is His.
OK, thanks. I can see your logic.
So, it wouldn’t be immoral for God to take children out of this life and bring them to live with Him forever in heaven — right? You can see that, I’m sure.
It conflicts with notions of God giving us free will, though. But I'm not sure to what extent that's considered a moral issue.
In fact, taking children out of this life where there could be misery and crimes against them, and taking them to a place of eternal peace and happiness … how could that be immoral?
True, but then would not rescuing them when you could be considered immoral? I guess that's just one aspect of the problem of evil, wish I guess is an issue best left for another day.Bob O'H
September 18, 2021
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Per Querius
JVL,
Really? We don’t even know who wrote the Gospels! Also, there is a dearth of confirming evidence from other sources.
After getting refuted on your precious assertion, you write
I was just saying I don’t think the Christian view of Jesus is all that well documented by contemporary source material.
How many hostile accounts and secular references from that time would it take to convince you? How many contemporary copies of the gospels would it take to convince you of the reliability of the text? I think I already know the answer. -Q
To add another interesting tidbit, JVL, (who has defended Darwinian atheism from time to time), (falsely) claimed that "We don’t even know who wrote the Gospels!" Yet if Darwinian atheism were actually true, then there are no authors. PERIOD! Authors simply do not exist in the Darwinian scheme of things. As Paul Nelson explained, if the naturalism that undergirds Darwinian thought were actually true then, "You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact."
Do You Like SETI? Fine, Then Let’s Dump Methodological Naturalism Paul Nelson - September 24, 2014 Excerpt: Assessing the Damage MN Does to Freedom of Inquiry Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism. If we say, "We cannot know that a mind caused x," laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. "That’s crazy," you reply, "I certainly did write my email." Okay, then — to what does the pronoun "I" in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural? Who knows?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent. https://evolutionnews.org/2014/09/do_you_like_set/
And as George Ellis explained, "if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options."
Physicist George Ellis on the importance of philosophy and free will - July 27, 2014 Excerpt: And free will?: Horgan: Einstein, in the following quote, seemed to doubt free will: “If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the Earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.” Do you believe in free will? Ellis: Yes. Einstein is perpetuating the belief that all causation is bottom up. This simply is not the case, as I can demonstrate with many examples from sociology, neuroscience, physiology, epigenetics, engineering, and physics. Furthermore if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options. I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense. Physicists should pay attention to Aristotle’s four forms of causation – if they have the free will to decide what they are doing. If they don’t, then why waste time talking to them? They are then not responsible for what they say. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-george-ellis-on-the-importance-of-philosophy-and-free-will/
So for JVL to (falsely) claim that nobody knows "who wrote" the gospels is for him to ignore a rather large and glaring elephant in his Darwinian living room. Namely, if Darwinian atheism were actually true then authors who, via their own volition, write books, simply don't exist on the Darwinian scheme of things. The Darwinian insanity of denying the existence of authors aside, it is also interesting to note that the New Testament was correct in its prediction that life had an author a few thousand years before DNA was even known about,
Acts 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
To point out the obvious, for the New Testament to predict that life had an author two thousand years before DNA was even known about is a rather amazing and stunning prediction to have confirmed by modern science. If JVL is not impressed by that fact, I'm sure the Christian founders of modern science would have, never-the-less, been very impressed by that fact. Supplemental note:
Harvard cracks DNA storage, crams 700 terabytes of data into a single gram - Sebastian Anthony - August 17, 2012 Excerpt: A bioengineer and geneticist at Harvard’s Wyss Institute have successfully stored 5.5 petabits of data — around 700 terabytes — in a single gram of DNA, smashing the previous DNA data density record by a thousand times.,,, Just think about it for a moment: One gram of DNA can store 700 terabytes of data. That’s 14,000 50-gigabyte Blu-ray discs… in a droplet of DNA that would fit on the tip of your pinky. To store the same kind of data on hard drives — the densest storage medium in use today — you’d need 233 3TB drives, weighing a total of 151 kilos. In Church and Kosuri’s case, they have successfully stored around 700 kilobytes of data in DNA — Church’s latest book, in fact — and proceeded to make 70 billion copies (which they claim, jokingly, makes it the best-selling book of all time!) totaling 44 petabytes of data stored. http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/134672-harvard-cracks-dna-storage-crams-700-terabytes-of-data-into-a-single-gram
bornagain77
September 17, 2021
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Silver Asiatic, Yes, John working with another person fluent in Greek is most likely the author due to the sources you mentioned. Vernard Eller's The Beloved Disciple makes the case for Lazarus in part based on the reference to "the disciple whom Jesus loved" mentioned in John 11:1-5 referring to Lazarus. Perhaps John and Lazarus collaborated for this account. -QQuerius
September 17, 2021
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I was just saying I don’t think the Christian view of Jesus is all that well documented by contemporary source material.
You’re pointing to an obscure small group of poor common people and their beliefs/activities are the best documented writings of the time. They were peasants/fishermen and were outcasts in their environment. Who would spend their time writing about these fools. Amazing!!! The documents are from several sources and written shortly after Jesus’s lifetime and early copies exist. As I said the best documented writings of anything from antiquity. And a lot of people died for their beliefs.jerry
September 17, 2021
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JVL,
Really? We don’t even know who wrote the Gospels! Also, there is a dearth of confirming evidence from other sources.
After getting refuted on your precious assertion, you write
I was just saying I don’t think the Christian view of Jesus is all that well documented by contemporary source material.
How many hostile accounts and secular references from that time would it take to convince you? How many contemporary copies of the gospels would it take to convince you of the reliability of the text? I think I already know the answer. -QQuerius
September 17, 2021
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Q
Irenaeus, writing at about AD 200, says that the Beloved Disciple was John
And Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp - who knew the apostle John personally. There's no real doubt about who wrote the Gospels. There is no one other than the authors who signed them that has been proposed (with any scholarly credibility). The scholarly consensus on this is strong.Silver Asiatic
September 17, 2021
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Jerry: Watch. https://alphausa.org/alpha-with-nicky-gumbel-preview#episode-5940245e579fb316e48c7eb2 That doesn't answer, and no one can, who wrote the Gospels. Josephus and Tacitus both attest to historicity of Jesus up to the crucifixion but most scholars consider references to the resurrection as later interpolations. I was just saying I don't think the Christian view of Jesus is all that well documented by contemporary source material.JVL
September 17, 2021
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Jerry, Brilliant presentation, great choice! JVL, Probably a waste of keystrokes, but . . . Matthew's account was written from a Jewish perspective. Matthew’s Hebrew name was Levi and he was a tax collector. Jesus chose Matthew to be one of his original twelve followers. Mark was a young Jewish man from Jerusalem with family ties to Cyprus. Mark was mentored by Peter, another one of the twelve apostles. Most scholars believe that Mark wrote down Peter’s account of the life of Jesus, translating it into Greek. Luke wrote his account in excellent Greek from the perspective of a well-educated physician and historian. Luke was a close friend and travel companion of the apostle Paul. The fourth account is anonymous, but attributed to the apostle John in collaboration with an unknown person fluent in Greek. There have been speculations that it might have been written by Lazarus or by Thomas (for some very good reasons), but . . . - Irenaeus, writing at about AD 200, says that the Beloved Disciple was John - Polycrates, Bishop of Ephesus (AD 189–198), refers to John’s association with the Gospel in his letter to Victor the Bishop of Rome - Clement of Alexandria (c. AD 200) agrees - The Latin Muratorian Canon (AD 180–200) also agrees Each of these four gospel accounts record events, teachings, miracles, and encounters involving Jesus. There are varying degrees of overlap and variation between the narratives. The variations are consistent with what is expected from independent eye-witness testimony rather than collusion. See Cold-Case Christianity by J. Warner Wallace, a retired cold-case homicide detective from Southern California who examines the gospels using the same methods he used for interviewing witnesses in murder investigations. Naturally, none of this evidence is relevant to you and you will continue to propagate your grossly misinformed opinion. -QQuerius
September 17, 2021
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JVL Really? We don’t even know who wrote the Gospels! Also, there is a dearth of confirming evidence from other sources.
:) Another reliable atheist has been directed here(against his will) by the chemical reactions from his brain to teach us about Gospels .Lieutenant Commander Data
September 17, 2021
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Every once in awhile Scott Adams produces a great Dilbert cartoon. Here is one today about truth telling. https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-09-17?creator=Dilbert_Dailyjerry
September 17, 2021
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Really? We don’t even know who wrote the Gospels! Also, there is a dearth of confirming evidence from other sources.
Watch. https://alphausa.org/alpha-with-nicky-gumbel-preview#episode-5940245e579fb316e48c7eb2jerry
September 17, 2021
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jerry: the New Testament is the most documented series of writings in history. If they were made up, they were incredibly unlikely made up documents. Really? We don't even know who wrote the Gospels! Also, there is a dearth of confirming evidence from other sources.JVL
September 17, 2021
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Seversky @230, Thank you for responding. You've received some interesting replies already. Let me add mine. The professor’s name eludes me after so many years, so I spent some time last night searching through emeritus websites to try and answer your question without success. I agree that it would be interesting to find whether he left any published information about his horrifying beliefs. He’s undoubtedly dead now, and must face God in answer to his intellectual violence. I’m sure everyone in his class was shocked, but no one dared to object, sadly including me.
I remind you of the burden of proof. Anyone who claims that God exists and wants to convert me to that belief is obliged to provide arguments and evidence to support that claim.
Rest assured that no one has the power to wrestle you into belief in something that you don’t want to believe in. But, I would say that we know the universe could not have created itself, nor that Nothing (non-existence) has the power to create Everything. Theoretical physicist Laurence Krauss claims that all that’s required for Everything to come out of Nothing is “gravity.” But, besides no one knowing what gravity really is and considering Einstein’s theory that gravity is a distortion of space-time, I think it’s relatively safe to believe that gravity cannot exist in or transcend Nothing. The belief in the multiverse is outside the reach of the scientific method and is fundamentally no different than a belief in God.
I was raised a Christian and initially accepted what I was taught about the faith without question. Over time, however, I gradually started to question what I had been taught and found that the arguments and evidence to support Christian claims just weren’t there.
It’s been said that “God has no grandchildren” in the sense that you must question the faith you were raised in and have the power of a freewill choice. You’ve taken the first step, but whether you take a second step depends on the following: 2. Are you willing to be open to the existence of God. 3. Are you willing to experience a gentle, non-coercive interaction with the Holy Spirit. 4. Are you willing to follow where that coaxing leads you? Having pounded on my beliefs and evidences in my own life, I might be able to remove some roadblocks and blind alleys, but not before you take the previous steps. As Blaise Pascal wrote in The Pensées, “Christian evidences are evidences for Christians.” -QQuerius
September 17, 2021
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Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence.
To argue against God you have to adopt the theistic worldview. You have to imagine the God-created world and all it entails. So, you actually have to imagine what it is like to be a believer and then accept all that a believer accepts. From that point of view, then you can criticize. Otherwise, if you argue against God from an atheistic-worldview - then God is having no effect on the world. God would just be "out there" - so you'd be targeting a being that has not changed the world radically by His existence. It's similar to arguing against historical periods using 21st century knowledge. You have to go back mentally, and put yourself in place in the ancient worldview. You have to see things as the people did - then criticize from there.Silver Asiatic
September 17, 2021
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Seversky
I was raised a Christian and initially accepted what I was taught about the faith without question. Over time, however, I gradually started to question what I had been taught and found that the arguments and evidence to support Christian claims just weren’t there.
It's good to know that because you're coming at the question with some knowledge already built-in from teaching in the past and actually having accepted it by faith. What changed for you occurred through questioning - and that means either that good answers weren't given or that there are no good answers. Many people are taught something about Christianity and then they discover Darwin, for example, and their faith dies off and never returns. Other people will try to get answers but the answers make the situation worse. For example, someone arguing against evolution by using the Bible alone. That ends up creating more atheists in many cases. But thinking the Bible alone has all answers to science is just as simplistic as thinking that Darwin alone destroys the meaning of all religious faith. Some forms of evolution are compatible with Christianity. Even when ID says that there is a designer and evidence of design, it doesn't mean that adaptations are not possible or that the designer just created everything from nothing.Silver Asiatic
September 17, 2021
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seversky:
Once again, if God is all-knowing and all-powerful then nothing happens but by His will.
Just because you can say it doesn't make it so. Grow up.
If human beings are capable of behaving in ways He finds offensive then that is how they must have been designed by Him.
So what? We all still have to take responsibility for our actions. Do you even have a point?
It is irrational therefore for either you or He to blame humanity for being the way they were designed to be.
It's the responsibility for your actions thing, duh.
Of course, one way out of this problem would be to drop the claims of omniscience and omnipotence.
Only people who cannot think say there is a problem. And here you are.ET
September 17, 2021
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Bornagain77
Michael Egnor Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence.
Well that is a monumental luxurious roast . Truth in simple words is like a double edged sword. The face of atheists is full of cuts, bruises and they tell us they are masters of the double edged sword. Yes, for sure...
To repeat, atheists need God to be real in order for them to even have the capability of trying to oppose Him.
True but their unoriginal comments(that they copy-paste from atheists websites) are for people who believe in God with simplicity and haven't thought before at all logical fallacies of atheists. But this is part of the trial for weak Christians and part of adding more sins for atheists. :))) Atheists involuntarily doing a very good job for God . God didn't ask them to do that therefore God won't reward them because atheists had no intention to help God but they did it anyway.Lieutenant Commander Data
September 17, 2021
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Seversky
My personal belief is that the right to life should be extended to conception or, more practically, that any detectable prenatal entity, be it zygote, blastocyst, embryo or fetus, should be automatically presumed to have the right to life.
That is surprising and very good to see. Surprising because I misjudged how you would have reacted - I would have bet against your taking that view. But it tells me again, I've learned from bad experience -- it's not good to judge someone, atheist or not, on these moral issues until the person has a chance to explain. People will say it's inconsistent with atheism, etc - but standing up for and defending life of the child in those earliest stages is something great in my book. It takes some insight that a lot of people in our culture don't have.Silver Asiatic
September 17, 2021
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I gradually started to question what I had been taught and found that the arguments and evidence to support Christian claims just weren’t there
The argument for Christianity is very simple (1) there is a creator/God - ID does a great job of supporting/justifying that belief as well as traditional logic. (2) Jesus is God or sent by God - the New Testament is the most documented series of writings in history. If they were made up, they were incredibly unlikely made up documents. (3) Jesus started a religion/Church. - obvious from these early documents So which of the three is unbelievable? (1) and (3) are no brainers as well documented/justified. So it has to be (2). (2) is not the province of ID except for possibly The Shroud of Turin. So which arguments/which evidence are just not there? That seems to be a silly claim. Everything is extremely well documented.jerry
September 17, 2021
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Jerry states that "What has to be provided by the common challenges that are being made, are good reasons for doing so." So did God have good moral justification for Noah's flood, and for, say, the often mentioned destruction of the Canaanites? Well according to the Bible, God did have ample moral justification, In regards to Noah's flood we find, Genesis 6:5 "The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually."
Genesis 6:5-7 – The Flood Story: A Grieving God, Not an Angry God Summary The flood story begins by revealing not an angry God, but a God who grieves over what has become of the human race, even expressing sorrow at creating them in the first place (6:5-7). Analysis The opening verses to the flood story are central to its interpretation. The initial statement about the human situation (6:5) provides the rationale for what follows: the great wickedness of humankind and the evil inclinations of the human heart. The words only, every, and continually specify the depth and breadth of human sinfulness. Genesis 6:11-13 will lift up the "violence" of human beings in particular. Notably, the flood story concludes with essentially the same description of the human race (8:21). In other words, the flood did not have any effect whatsoever on the sinfulness of humankind. God makes a decision to continue with the world even without any human change; the world's future will depend upon God's promises. The basic character of the human heart is set alongside the response of the divine heart (6:6). God appears not as an angry and vengeful judge, but as a grieving and pained parent, distressed over what has happened. The NIV translation says it best: God's "heart was filled with pain." These remarkably expressed divine emotions, which issue in a decision to destroy all living things (6:7), are resolved on the side of mercy in God's choice of Noah and his family. God's regretful response to human sin assumes that human beings have successfully resisted God's will for the creation. Such language thereby reveals that the flood was not planned by God, but was a divine response to human sin and its disastrous effects on the creation. Genesis 6:5-7 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7So the Lord said, ‘I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.’ https://www.enterthebible.org/Controls/feature/tool_etb_resource_display/resourcebox.aspx?selected_rid=356&original_id=20
And in regards to the destruction of the Canaanites, the Canaanites weren’t destroyed simply because they were Canaanites (genocide, as atheists often try to imply). Rather, God judged the Canaanites precisely because of their evil, sinful, deeds, like child sacrifice to their false god, In fact God had given the Canaanites 400 years to repent from their many sins against Him.. Here is a very good video on the subject,
Chances are… we’ve misunderstood the God of the Bible – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW8MbUbpOPI
I particularly liked this quote from the preceding video
“My last resistance to the idea of God’s wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, the region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people wre killed and 3,000,000 displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalized beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Though I used to complain about the indecency of God’s wrath, I came to think that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn’t wrathful at the sight of the world’s evil. God isn’t wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love.” – Miroslav Volf – Croatian theologian https://books.google.com/books?id=BkwnAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA59
And here is a more detailed defense against the Atheist’s fallacious argument that God was a evil tyrant for commanding the destruction of the Canaanites.
GENOCIDE AND THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT – OCTOBER 4, 2016 https://crossexamined.org/genocide-god-old-testament/ In Genesis 15:13 and 16, when God promises Abraham that He will give the land of Canaan to his descendants, He informs him that it will not take place for another 400 years because their sins “do not yet warrant their destruction.” “for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.” https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+15%3A13-16&version=KJV
So, according to the Bible itself, God had ample moral justification for what he did in the OT. Moreover, regardless of whether atheists ever honestly admit that, according to the Bible itself, God had ample moral justification, I still hold that for atheists to even bring up the 'problem of evil' is for them to refute their own atheistic worldview in the process. To repeat what Dr. Egnor noted in regards to the atheist's 'argument from evil', “Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question.”
The Universe Reflects a Mind – Michael Egnor – February 28, 2018 Excerpt: Goff argues that a Mind is manifest in the natural world, but he discounts the existence of God because of the problem of evil. Goff seriously misunderstands the problem of evil. Evil is an insoluble problem for atheists, because if there is no God, there is no objective standard by which evil and good can exist or can even be defined. If God does not exist, “good” and “evil” are merely human opinions. Yet we all know, as Kant observed, that some things are evil in themselves, and not merely as a matter of opinion. Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence. From that starting point, theodicy begins. Theists have explored it profoundly. Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question.,,, https://evolutionnews.org/2018/02/the-universe-reflects-a-mind/
To repeat, if objective morality exists, (as the atheist must presuppose to be true for his moral argument against God to even have a chance of succeeding), then God must also necessarily exists.
Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist. Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist. Conclusion: Therefore, God exists. The Moral Argument – drcraigvideos – video https://youtu.be/OxiAikEk2vU?t=276 If Good and Evil Exist, God Exists: Peter Kreeft – Prager University – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliyujhwhNM
To repeat, atheists need God to be real in order for them to even have the capability of trying to oppose Him.
“In other words, the non-Christian needs the truth of the Christian religion in order to attack it. As a child needs to sit on the lap of its father in order to slap the father’s face, so the unbeliever, as a creature, needs God the Creator and providential controller of the universe in order to oppose this God. Without this God, the place on which he stands does not exist. He cannot stand in a vacuum.” – Cornelius Van Til, Essays on Christian Education (The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company: Phillipsburg, NJ, 1979).
bornagain77
September 16, 2021
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Querius/223
One of my professors in college advocated the right of mothers to have “postnatal abortions” up until two years of age because no child should be unwanted! Agree?
Absolutely not! My personal belief is that the right to life should be extended to conception or, more practically, that any detectable prenatal entity, be it zygote, blastocyst, embryo or fetus, should be automatically presumed to have the right to life. Who is this professor? What is his discipline? Is there anywhere I can look to see what he has written about this?
You must then also be angry at the universe for the fact that 100% of all humans will die. Right?
It seems a bit pointless to be angry about something about which we can do nothing. On the other hand, as Dylan Thomas wrote,
Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Seversky seems to have chickened out when I challenged him to examine why he was MOTIVATED to find reasons for not believing in God. Would you be courageous enough to find the motivations behind your appearance here at UD to spend time fighting against the belief that God exists?
I remind you of the burden of proof. Anyone who claims that God exists and wants to convert me to that belief is obliged to provide arguments and evidence to support that claim. I was raised a Christian and initially accepted what I was taught about the faith without question. Over time, however, I gradually started to question what I had been taught and found that the arguments and evidence to support Christian claims just weren't there. I seriously doubt that anything I write here will change any minds and I've not seen anything yet that would change mine but it's useful intellectual exercise and who knows?Seversky
September 16, 2021
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Seversky
If human beings are capable of behaving in ways He finds offensive then that is how they must have been designed by Him. If He is all-powerful, he could have designed us otherwise – indeed, He should still be able to change us if He chose.
I see why you're misunderstanding the response. You're taking an atheist starting point - namely that organisms are designed (determined) to function in a certain way. Then, you're plugging in a God on top of the structure. So, now God is the "determiner" of action. Thus, God is to blame for human actions. Again, that's an understandable mistake. You're using your own worldview for half of the equation and putting in God for the other half. But you have to change the assumptions of your worldview to understand how it works.
It is irrational therefore for either you or He to blame humanity for being the way they were designed to be.
As above, you're equating the term "designed to be" with "determined to be". That's the mistake.
if God is all-knowing and all-powerful then nothing happens but by His will.
You have a God here who causes everything to happen, but you're ignoring that God willed that his creatures would be able to understand and actually have responsibility for their actions. It's not a simplistic model where God created the beings and then directly causes everything they do. Clearly, you know this - since you'll take responsibility for your actions just as everyone on earth is capable of doing. When you make a mistake, you take ownership for it. But you'd legitimately (given your worldview) be able to deny that. "I was determined by evolution to do it, officer". That might work if ever you're arrested - at least to make someone question your sanity. But nobody is going to accept it as a reason for your behavior - and that's not a Christian bias. Atheists know and act as if they own their own behavior. That's part of human nature. The Christian view is the same - we own some responsiblity (not all) for for our actions.
If He is all-knowing then He would have known exactly how we were going to behave right from the start.
This has been answered multiple times. Please acknowledge that. Knowing that someone will do something is not equivalent to forcing them to do it. The fact that something of the future is known, does not take away the choice. You cite St. Peter's denial of Christ - but we know that St. Peter repented of that sin. He did so because he knew it was his free choice to deny Christ. We all know that for ourselves. Evolution does not force us to do things - nor does God. We pray for help from God to make decisions - but even there we know we have the freedom to choose.
Unfortunately, if you demote Him from being the Greatest of All Possible Beings then you also demote Him from being any kind of Supreme Moral Authority. In effect, He would be just another highly-advanced alien.
Exactly. Denying omnipotence and omniscience would mean that he would be a flawed being, dependent on something else for existence - and therefore would not be God. Omniscience means knowing. It does not mean forcing free creatures to act in certain ways. That is the genius of God. A machine-like god creates beings that must act according to the machinelike-program. God creates beings that can choose against God's will. That's the beauty of it. God has the power to force people - but more than that, He has the power to create beings who fully understand that they own responsibility for their actions. We deserve credit for the good, and punishment for the bad. We all know this - it's built into us by God.Silver Asiatic
September 16, 2021
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if God is all-knowing and all-powerful then
:))) Do you know how is to be all-knowing and all-powerful ?
If human beings are capable of behaving in ways He finds offensive then that is how they must have been designed by Him.
So you admit that you don't have free will and you are just a designed bot. Only one problem :did He programmed you to talk against Him or you have a virus ? When did you last run the antivirus program? Maybe you should renew the licence?
one way out of this problem would be
To update your software?Lieutenant Commander Data
September 16, 2021
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Bornagain77/209
Since both Bob and Seversky are Darwinian atheists, instead of just run of the mill village atheists, it is worth pointing out that morality for the Darwinian atheist is not just the absence of morality, i.e. amorality, ‘pitiless indifference’ as Dawkins put it, but turns out to be, (when you throw the Darwinian precept of ‘survival of the fittest; on top of the atheist’s naturalistic worldview of ‘pitiless indifference’), a worldview that turns out to be downright ‘ANTI-Morality’, not just amorality
It appears that, as usual, you are ignoring the naturalistic fallacy. "Survival if the fittest" is a pithy phrase which describes what we observe in Nature. We can't logically infer from those observations that is how we should behave towards one another in society. Although, as I've noted before, it's a tad ironic that those who are so quick to condemn "survival of the fittest" as a moral guideline for society, defend it as an economic policy. They strongly believe that only the fittest companies should survive. It's also ironic that believers criticize non-believers for daring to form moral beliefs of their own when said believers admit they would not know right from wrong except by what their God tells them.Seversky
September 16, 2021
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Silver Asiatic/202
Anyone giving a critique of God needs to include the attributes of God that work together. It’s like giving a critique of evolution without understanding the concepts. You have to work within the definitions and logical structures. The idea that God is absolutely tolerant, uncaring and indifferent is a distortion. God can’t tolerate falsehood or evil – it just goes against His nature.
This is not a critique of God per se but of the logical inconsistencies in the Christian definition thereof. Once again, if God is all-knowing and all-powerful then nothing happens but by His will. If human beings are capable of behaving in ways He finds offensive then that is how they must have been designed by Him. If He is all-powerful, he could have designed us otherwise - indeed, He should still be able to change us if He chose. If He is all-knowing then He would have known exactly how we were going to behave right from the start. It is irrational therefore for either you or He to blame humanity for being the way they were designed to be. Of course, one way out of this problem would be to drop the claims of omniscience and omnipotence. He would then be capable of mistakes which He did not have the power to rectify and would not necessarily be able to foresee the consequences of all His actions. Unfortunately, if you demote Him from being the Greatest of All Possible Beings then you also demote Him from being any kind of Supreme Moral Authority. In effect, He would be just another highly-advanced alien.Seversky
September 16, 2021
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Silver Asiatic @224, Yes, and I was horrified at his twisted mind! He was also the chairman of his department. I had some terrific professors but I also had some real sickos! -QQuerius
September 16, 2021
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Querius
One of my professors in college advocated the right of mothers to have “postnatal abortions” up until two years of age because no child should be unwanted!
That guy is a psychopath. For me it's difficult to respond calmly to such a thing - an attack on humanity and against the most vulnerable.Silver Asiatic
September 16, 2021
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Bob O'H, Your complaint that God kills babies suggests that you also strongly object to doctors killing babies as well. One of my professors in college advocated the right of mothers to have "postnatal abortions" up until two years of age because no child should be unwanted! Agree? You must then also be angry at the universe for the fact that 100% of all humans will die. Right? You've received excellent answers from Bornagain77, ET, Jerry, Silver Asiatic, and Lieutenant Commander Data, but you're still struggling to find reasons to object to the existence of God. Seversky seems to have chickened out when I challenged him to examine why he was MOTIVATED to find reasons for not believing in God. Would you be courageous enough to find the motivations behind your appearance here at UD to spend time fighting against the belief that God exists? -QQuerius
September 16, 2021
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