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Lutheran religious studies prof asks, Is methodological naturalism racist?

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Robert F. Shedinger came across an open access 2020 paper in Social Psychology of Education, “Why are there so few ethnic minorities in ecology and evolutionary biology? Challenges to inclusion and the role of sense of belonging” which brought up something you are not likely to hear from the
Darwin Lobby:

It is well established that people of color are poorly represented in STEM fields compared with their representation in the larger population. That is for a host of complex sociological and economic reasons. But even taking this into consideration, the authors note that African Americans are even more poorly represented in EEB [ecology and evolutionary biology] fields in comparison with non-EEB fields of biology. This extremely poor representation in EEB cannot be explained by the factors leading to underrepresentation in STEM fields, so there must be something else going on.

To find out what, the authors surveyed a sample of college undergraduates from different racial and ethnic groups about their attitudes towards STEM in general and EEB in particular. The findings point to a number of factors, especially among African Americans, leading to a sense of not belonging in the culture of the EEB community. Two of these factors were a greater tendency toward religiosity and moral objections to evolution.

Surprisingly, and contrary to the expectations of the authors, African American (as well as Latino) undergraduates expressed a greater desire than white students to seek advanced education in ecology and evolutionary biology. Yet despite their interest level, the perceived lack of belonging they would experience in the EEB community appears to prevent their actual pursuit of advanced education (in 2014 African Americans earned fewer than 2 percent of PhDs granted in EEB fields but 5.1 percent in non-EEB subfields of biology).

As the authors note, African Americans consistently score higher on surveys of religiosity than the general population. This will not be surprising to anyone familiar with the African American church tradition. But African American undergraduates seem to be aware of the absolute requirement that EEB research be done in accordance with methodological (and de facto metaphysical) naturalism. Their religious inclinations will therefore be in conflict with the culture within the EEB community and it will be difficult for them to feel a sense of belonging in that community. The same with their moral objections to evolution, moral objections that are well founded in the African American experience (see Human Zoos). The demands of methodological naturalism thus become an impediment to the greater participation of people of color in ecology and evolutionary biology. What insights might we be losing as a result?

Robert F. Shedinger, “Is Methodological Naturalism Racist?” at Evolution News and Science Today (August 27, 2021)

When Shedinger asks, “What insights might we be losing as a result?”, one wants to ask, “Who is the ‘we’”? The Darwinians don’t want insights; they want control. Yes, the rest of us are losing insights but that hardly counts. Breaking the stranglehold sounds like a team effort.

It’s an interesting discussion of the findings in the light of the recent op-ed in Scientific American claiming that creationism was based on white supremacy.

See also: At Evolution News and Science Today: The casual racism of Charles Darwin. Shedinger calls Allison Hopper’s piece in Scientific American, “startlingly vacuous,” which raises — once again — the question of why on earth the mag published it. It’s not as if there is no scholarship on the topic of Darwin and racism. Did the editors not want to address that scholarship? Well, we can’t read minds but we can make some reasonable guesses. How about: Create a big uproar and hope everyone will focus on that and not on the topic at hand? Shedinger also notes perceptively, “One does not become racist because of the view one holds on human origins. One becomes racist for other complex reasons and then reads that racism back into whatever view on human origins you hold.”

Comments
There are clear descriptions of God killing people
:) You really are confused. How would God(of the Bible) kill people if God Himself created them with immortal souls ? Can you explain that ? Probably you understand "killing" in an naturalist-atheist interpretation ( matter is all there is ,and there is no soul) but how in the world your mind process the concept of God ? :))) God in an atheist mind must be some darwinian materialistic concept (a brother of Bobby, maybe ? ). Can you explain to us what is God in your darwinian mind ,another man like you or what ?Lieutenant Commander Data
September 16, 2021
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The passages in the Old Testament which show either God causing loss of life or ordering it exist. They are constantly brought up by people who have studied the Bible and repeated by commenters here. Either this God does not exist or He does? If he doesn’t exist, then the argument is irrelevant. If He exist, then He has a good reason to do so or He doesn’t. What has to be provided by the common challenges that are being made, are good reasons for doing so. What these arguments are meant to accomplish is to convince others that either there is no God or the creator has no benign vision for his creation and is thus, not the Judeo/Christian God. These arguments are directed at Christianity not a creator per se.jerry
September 16, 2021
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Because it’s not relevant to what I’m asking. I could still ask about the seeming disconnect between the concept of a loving God and a God that’s described as doing a fair bit of smiting whether I was an atheist, Hindu, Taoist, or follower of the FSM
Three things First, The author of life has the authority to take it. Christians believe their God is that author. Second, the Christian God, which presumably is the same God of the Old Testament has revealed that this life is trivial in comparison to eternal life. There is no indication that all those people killed will be denied eternal life. Third, the realization of the purpose of existence was gradual. What was necessary to emphasize what was positive and what was negative changes in how they are treated over time. As we all know in our current world, fear rules most of our actions. It most certainly did thousands of years ago. An aside: maybe a meaningful world requires uncertainty.jerry
September 16, 2021
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BA77 said
Perhaps [Bob]... could then argue for some other god being morally superior to the God of the Bible, (And that would be a very interesting debate to have with Bob).
I didn't want that point to be lost because it really would be a good discussion to have with Bob.Silver Asiatic
September 16, 2021
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Bob O'H
I could still ask about the seeming disconnect between the concept of a loving God and a God that’s described as doing a fair bit of smiting whether I was an atheist, Hindu, Taoist, or follower of the FSM. If there is a solution to this apparent contradiction, then I would assume that Christians would know what it is (and even if not every Christian would know this solution, they would be able to find out).
Asking questions is good. But I'm hoping you will build upon what you learn from the Christians who respond. You might not like the answers, but ask the next level question. Don't just fall back and repeat what has been already answered. Dig into it more deeply - that way your knowledge will advance.Silver Asiatic
September 16, 2021
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ET
According to Bob, Bob “learned” about the Bible from Christians, not from reading it. Not from reading it and asking informed questions to the people who have studied it. That means Bob cannot make informed, educated opinions on anything the Bible says.
I think that's an essential and important point. Bob has said that he'd only be interested in talking about religion in casual conversations with people, and not even that much at all. So, how could any serious critique come out of that? It's like arguing against evolution without knowing anything about biology at all and having no interest in learning anything. Never reading or studying a single book about it. ... I'm hoping Bob would take a different approach. Take some time to study the Bible and what it says - as a complete whole, not just a quote here or there.Silver Asiatic
September 16, 2021
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Bob O'H
OK, that makes sense, so presumably killing the first-borns in Egypt wasn’t just (or, perhaps, wouldn’t be if a human did it) because many (most?) couldn’t share in the guilt of the Pharoah’s actions.
Right. Your first parenthetical is important and good. It would not be moral for someone to break into my house, steal my computer and wipe out all the data on it. But it would be moral for me to take my own computer and wipe out the harddrive. It's my data - so it belongs to me. If someone else does the same thing, then that's a problem. Life does not belong to us. That's the essential point for every human on earth to think about and accept. The life of Bob O'H doesn't belong to you - as strange as that may seem. You didn't create your own life. You also didn't create Bob O'H. That person was created and given to "you" - even the "you" here is not something you made. If your own life belongs to your creator, then it is His. So, it wouldn't be immoral for God to take children out of this life and bring them to live with Him forever in heaven -- right? You can see that, I'm sure. In fact, taking children out of this life where there could be misery and crimes against them, and taking them to a place of eternal peace and happiness ... how could that be immoral?Silver Asiatic
September 16, 2021
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On another note: The "retired physicist" has died in a car crash last Saturday, September 11. Steve Story, 45, of Lake City, FL died in a head-on collision with a semi. The report says it was around 5 am and somehow Steve was on the wrong side of the road.ET
September 16, 2021
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All Bob O'H has is an argument from extreme ignorance, as usual. According to Bob, Bob "learned" about the Bible from Christians, not from reading it. Not from reading it and asking informed questions to the people who have studied it. That means Bob cannot make informed, educated opinions on anything the Bible says. So just consider the source when Bob spews his Biblical ignorance.ET
September 16, 2021
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Bob claims that the fact that his very own Darwinian worldview is rendered incoherent and false by 'the moral argument' itself is not to be considered of central importance, "Because it’s not relevant to what I’m asking." And there you have it folks. Darwinian Atheists don't even care that their very own worldview is rendered completely incoherent by 'the moral argument' itself, just so long as they can continue to make their juvenile theological arguments against God. Sorry Bob, it just doesn't work that way. There is an admission price to be paid so as to be able to make moral arguments against God in the first place, and Darwinists can't even begin to pay that 'moral price'. But alas, since Darwinists have no real time scientific evidence supporting their grandiose claims that all life, in all it amazing complexity and diversity, arose via mindless processes, faulty juvenile Theological arguments is apparently all Darwinists really have. This was true of Charles Darwin in the beginning, and continues to be true of Darwinists still today, (as Bob himself is giving witness to in this very thread).
Evolution as a Theological Research Program - by Cornelius Hunter - August 2021 Introduction Excerpt: ,,, theological claims are common in Darwin’s On the Origin of Species (Darwin 1859), where they are essential to his science. The religion is not a tangential message, and one need not read between the lines to see it. In the Origin, it would not be an exaggeration to say the religion drives the science. Darwin’s religion is not merely present, it is prominent and has primacy over the science. The religion is foundational. The importance of religion in Darwin’s theory is also apparent in the science he presented. As Section 5 shows, Darwin did not have sufficient scientific arguments and evidence to advance his theory. Finally, as Section 6 and Section 7 demonstrate, these roles and relationships between religion and science persisted after Darwin. This religious foundation was by no means peculiar to Darwin’s thought. It has remained foundational since Darwin in motivating and justifying the theory. What we find in Darwin continued in later evolutionary thought. Therefore, the thesis of this paper is that evolution is best understood as a theological research program. https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/9/694/htm Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys - Paul Nelson - September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise's Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous "God-wouldn't-have-done-it-that-way" arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky's essay "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky's essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: "Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist's arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky's arguments.",, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html The role of theology in current evolutionary reasoning - Paul A. Nelson - Biology and Philosophy, 1996, Volume 11, Number 4, Pages 493-517 Excerpt: Evolutionists have long contended that the organic world falls short of what one might expect from an omnipotent and benevolent creator. Yet many of the same scientists who argue theologically for evolution are committed to the philosophical doctrine of methodological naturalism, which maintains that theology has no place in science. Furthermore, the arguments themselves are problematical, employing concepts that cannot perform the work required of them, or resting on unsupported conjectures about suboptimality. Evolutionary theorists should reconsider both the arguments and the influence of Darwinian theological metaphysics on their understanding of evolution. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00138329 Damned if You Do and Damned if You Don't - Steve Dilley- 2019-06-02 The Problem of God-talk in Biology Textbooks Abstract: We argue that a number of biology (and evolution) textbooks face a crippling dilemma. On the one hand, significant difficulties arise if textbooks include theological claims in their case for evolution. (Such claims include, for example, ‘God would never design a suboptimal panda’s thumb, but an imperfect structure is just what we’d expect on natural selection.’) On the other hand, significant difficulties arise if textbooks exclude theological claims in their case for evolution. So, whether textbooks include or exclude theological claims, they face debilitating problems. We attempt to establish this thesis by examining 32 biology (and evolution) textbooks, including the Big 12—that is, the top four in each of the key undergraduate categories (biology majors, non-majors, and evolution courses). In Section 2 of our article, we analyze three specific types of theology these texts use to justify evolutionary theory. We argue that all face significant difficulties. In Section 3, we step back from concrete cases and, instead, explore broader problems created by having theology in general in biology textbooks. We argue that the presence of theology—of whatever kind—comes at a significant cost, one that some textbook authors are likely unwilling to pay. In Section 4, we consider the alternative: Why not simply get rid of theology? Why not just ignore it? In reply, we marshal a range of arguments why avoiding God-talk raises troubles of its own. Finally, in Section 5, we bring together the collective arguments in Sections 2-4 to argue that biology textbooks face an intractable dilemma. We underscore this difficulty by examining a common approach that some textbooks use to solve this predicament. We argue that this approach turns out to be incoherent and self-serving. The poor performance of textbooks on this point highlights just how deep the difficulty is. In the end, the overall dilemma remains. https://journals.blythinstitute.org/ojs/index.php/cbi/article/view/44
bornagain77
September 16, 2021
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Bob continues to blatantly ignore the fact that he, as a Darwinian atheist, simply has no objective moral basis in which to sit in judgment of God.
Well, yes. Because it's not relevant to what I'm asking. I could still ask about the seeming disconnect between the concept of a loving God and a God that's described as doing a fair bit of smiting whether I was an atheist, Hindu, Taoist, or follower of the FSM. If there is a solution to this apparent contradiction, then I would assume that Christians would know what it is (and even if not every Christian would know this solution, they would be able to find out).Bob O'H
September 16, 2021
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Bob continues to blatantly ignore the fact that he, as a Darwinian atheist, simply has no objective moral basis in which to sit in judgment of God. Not letting such a minor detail as the falsification of his entire Darwinian worldview get in his way, Bob continues to try to argue that God has no right to judge entire Nations for their sins. Yet, according to Bob's supposed logic*, where the collective guilt of Nations is to be ignored and only individuals are to be punished individually for their sins, the Allied powers had no right to destroy the entire German Nation as a whole during WWII, but only had the right to destroy Hitler and those individuals who were participating directly in the genocide of the Jewish people. Something tells me that Bob has not really thought the logic* of all this through very deeply.
“My last resistance to the idea of God’s wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, the region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed and 3,000,000 displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalized beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Though I used to complain about the indecency of God’s wrath, I came to think that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn’t wrathful at the sight of the world’s evil. God isn’t wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love.” – Miroslav Volf – Croatian theologian – quoted from “Yawning at Tigers; You Can’t Tame God so Stop Trying” – pg. 59 https://books.google.com/books?id=BkwnAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA59
(*of note: besides morality, even 'logic' itself can find no basis within Bob's Darwinian worldview)
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - - 1985 Greg Bahnsen debate Excerpt: When we go to look at the different world views that atheists and theists have, I suggest we can prove the existence of God from the impossibility of the contrary. The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://justinholcomb.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist/
bornagain77
September 16, 2021
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SA @ 205 -
In what sense is collective punishment just?
When the collective share in the guilt of the crime.
OK, that makes sense, so presumably killing the first-borns in Egypt wasn't just (or, perhaps, wouldn't be if a human did it) because many (most?) couldn't share in the guilt of the Pharoah's actions. Querius @ 206 -
But the people who believe in the Creator also believe in an eternal afterlife and a judgment of all people based on their attitudes, priorities, and behaviors on earth. The amazing and incredible genius and love of God should warn us against projecting human evil motives and actions onto God such as the ancient Greeks did with Zeus and their other capricious gods.
This suggests one resolution to the problem: essentially God kills newborns etc. and then makes it up to them in the afterlife. Is this what you were hinting at? LCD @ 208 -
Does Bible say that for Bobby the atheist? For Christians doesn’t say that. Why in the world would think Bobby that he knows better than Christians what Bible says? Who would learn about Bible from atheist websites? Who would learn about engineering from a ballerina?
No, I learned about the bible from Christians - I was even confirmed into the Church of England. There are clear descriptions of God killing people, e.g. the Noachian flood, the plagues of Egypt, Sodom & Gomorrah etc.
Are you saying that genocide is not immoral, or just that it is only immoral if God does not do it?
Bobby is confused ,again:
OK, if I'm confused then neither of those options is correct (although you do suggest the second is right). The only alternative that I can see is that you think that genocide is OK even if humans do it.Bob O'H
September 16, 2021
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Since both Bob and Seversky are Darwinian atheists, instead of just run of the mill village atheists, it is worth pointing out that morality for the Darwinian atheist is not just the absence of morality, i.e. amorality, ‘pitiless indifference’ as Dawkins put it, but turns out to be, (when you throw the Darwinian precept of 'survival of the fittest; on top of the atheist’s naturalistic worldview of ‘pitiless indifference’), a worldview that turns out to be downright ‘ANTI-Morality’, not just amorality. Alturistic behavior of any sort is simply completely antithetical to the entire ‘survival of the fittest’ precept of Darwinian evolution. (and in fact finding pervasive altruistic behavior at the levels of biological molecules, of cells, of multicellular organisms, as well as in human behavior, falsifies a core 'prediction' of Darwinian evolution) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-rawlsian-myth-of-the-morally-neutral-perspective/#comment-715215bornagain77
September 15, 2021
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Bob O'H
LCD Your atheist dogma says God kills?
No, that’s what the Bible says.
:)Does Bible say that for Bobby the atheist? For Christians doesn't say that. Why in the world would think Bobby that he knows better than Christians what Bible says? Who would learn about Bible from atheist websites? Who would learn about engineering from a ballerina?
Are you saying that genocide is not immoral, or just that it is only immoral if God does not do it?
Bobby is confused ,again: 1.If God doesn't exist genocide is neither good nor bad , is "survival of the fittest" ;) so Bobby why do you think genocide is bad? 2.If God exists He is the creator/keeper/administrator of objective morality and any moral opinion against Him is immoral because you Bobby you are just an immoral user of objective morality(if you believe in God) or a thief of objective morality (if you are an atheist).Lieutenant Commander Data
September 15, 2021
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Bob at 203 Bob, as a Darwinian atheist who does not believe in God or in any other gods, pays no attention to the fact that for him to try to sit in judgement of God, as he is trying to do so now, that he must have some sort of objective moral standard of good and evil to judge by. But without God, and as a Darwinian atheist, there simply can be no objective standard of morality for Bob to judge by.
Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist. Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist. Conclusion: Therefore, God exists. The Moral Argument – drcraigvideos - video https://youtu.be/OxiAikEk2vU?t=276 If Good and Evil Exist, God Exists: Peter Kreeft - Prager University - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xliyujhwhNM
Bob in totally reliant on our God given, intuitive, sense of objective morality in order to try to invoke some type of moral outrage against God in us. Yet, without God, the judgment seat that Bob is trying to sit in against God simply does not exist. As Cornelius Van Til put it, "As a child needs to sit on the lap of its father in order to slap the father’s face, so the unbeliever, as a creature, needs God the Creator and providential controller of the universe in order to oppose this God. Without this God, the place on which he stands does not exist. He cannot stand in a vacuum.”
“In other words, the non-Christian needs the truth of the Christian religion in order to attack it. As a child needs to sit on the lap of its father in order to slap the father’s face, so the unbeliever, as a creature, needs God the Creator and providential controller of the universe in order to oppose this God. Without this God, the place on which he stands does not exist. He cannot stand in a vacuum.” - Cornelius Van Til, Essays on Christian Education (The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company: Phillipsburg, NJ, 1979).
C.S Lewis, (a former atheist who saw more evil in WWI than most people can even imagine seeing, and who eventually who converted to Christianity in spite of the carnage that he saw in WWI), put the fatal flaw of his 'argument from evil' like this: “My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?,,, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.”
“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?,,, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning." - C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity. Harper San Francisco, Zondervan Publishing House, 2001, pp. 38-39.
Perhaps if Bob would at least acknowledge the necessity of God for his moral argument to even be coherent in the first place, then perhaps he could then argue for some other god being morally superior to the God of the Bible, (And that would be a very interesting debate to have with Bob). But as Bob's argument stands now, and as a Darwinian atheist, the judgement seat of morality that Bob is trying to sit in against God simply does not exist. Again, Bob needs God in order for him to try to oppose God.bornagain77
September 15, 2021
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Bornagain77, Silver Asiatic, and Lieutenant Commander Data, Great quotes and good points! Considering that roughly 100% of humanity is dead, dying, or going to die apparently doesn't bother atheists since it's obviously Nature's way of handling ecology and overpopulation . . . except when it's to find fault with the Creator. Nature and Evolution can and do commit genocide, and this is no problem for atheists. They don't hate Nature for doing so, but they exclude all consideration of God, who created Nature, from consideration precisely for the same reason! But the people who believe in the Creator also believe in an eternal afterlife and a judgment of all people based on their attitudes, priorities, and behaviors on earth. The amazing and incredible genius and love of God should warn us against projecting human evil motives and actions onto God such as the ancient Greeks did with Zeus and their other capricious gods. Jesus is recorded in Matthew 25 as telling a parable about several different people with different abilities given gold by their manager to invest, which they did. Except one of them had a great excuse--the manager was UNFAIR and they were AFRAID of him! Here's what happened in Jesus' parable:
“Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’“ His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest . . . throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
God basically tells such people, "Nice try, but that excuse doesn't hold water." But go ahead and have fun and think you're smart now, live as you please, and worry about the weeping and gnashing of teeth later "if it happens." -QQuerius
September 15, 2021
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Bob O'H
In what sense is collective punishment just?
When the collective share in the guilt of the crime.Silver Asiatic
September 15, 2021
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LCD @ 200 -
Your atheist dogma says God kills?
No, that's what the Bible says. 1: if God doesn’t exist killing is not bad (do you remember darwinist theology?) so why you act as killing is bad? ?
2.if God exists then He is the source of objective morality not Bobby so everytime Bobby say God is immoral means Bobby is immoral.
Are you saying that genocide is not immoral, or just that it is only immoral if God does not do it? ba77 @ 201 -
In regards to Bob’s false accusation that God kills/murders people, and as LCD pointed out, “God doesn’t kill/murder(only people kill/murder)” God being the ultimate judge of all humanity, renders justice on people and for people, not murder!
In what sense is collective punishment just? Only if God does it, or is there a deeper reasoning?Bob O'H
September 15, 2021
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Bob O'H
What if he had been a bit more patient, though?
It would have gotten worse for everyone. In mercy, He cut the time shorter.
And in some of these cases he didn’t punish individuals, it was whole communities (e.g. cities, nations and in one case almost the whole world) he slaughtered.
We have to consider "the second death" (Rev. 20:14-15).Silver Asiatic
September 15, 2021
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Seversky @ 192
I also think that believers default to such an explanation for non-belief because they find it inconceivable there could be any other explanation for not believing something which is, to them, so obviously and unquestionably true.
I agree that many believers default to that explanation through a lack of understanding of the issues. It's also difficult to understand unbelief from atheists themselves who often do not give reasons, but just hostility towards God. It's also a default because that anger-from-abuse is very a common source for the evil-God theory. But it's not the only cause, as you say. Paradoxically, the desire in contemporary Christianity to present God as very soft and tolerant creates a backlash when people encounter the teachings in the Old Testament. We see it socially in the US where the very same voices that preach tolerance and understanding - end up being intolerant and shutting-down dissent. Anyone giving a critique of God needs to include the attributes of God that work together. It's like giving a critique of evolution without understanding the concepts. You have to work within the definitions and logical structures. The idea that God is absolutely tolerant, uncaring and indifferent is a distortion. God can't tolerate falsehood or evil - it just goes against His nature. God's love is described by prophets as very intense - the same God who created the immense, burning star of our solar system - has that kind of power. Yes, there is mercy, kindness, understanding in God - but also a perfect justice. Forgiveness is given - for those who sincerely seek and ask it. Those who don't want forgiveness and mercy choose a different result Everything works in a balance. So, within that, there's an intolerance for evil and sin - those things which damage human life (the self, others and the whole universe). People want God to be tolerant of evils - but it can't work that way. That would be unjust. People who hate God choose a path that has consequences. The fact that God is all-goodness (and therefore opposed to evil) is not much of an argument against the existence of God. Vindication against evil is something that people can rejoice about. Tolerance of evil and all the harm it does just destroys rational thought itself. Because falsehoods and lies are evil. Absolute tolerance for lies and false concepts destroys reason - which requires an adherence to truth.Silver Asiatic
September 15, 2021
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Bob falsely claims that "you’ve avoided the central issue: you have a God whose acts include killing large numbers of people,",,,, Bob also ignored the fact that I pointed out that God gave at least 50 years of warning in the case of the Noah's flood in particular, (and gave even longer warnings of a few hundred years in other instances in the OT). In regards to Bob's false accusation that God kills/murders people, and as LCD pointed out, "God doesn’t kill/murder(only people kill/murder)" God being the ultimate judge of all humanity, renders justice on people and for people, not murder! Atheists seem to have a very hard time understanding the radical, night and day, difference there is between rendering justice and murder.
“My last resistance to the idea of God’s wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, the region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed and 3,000,000 displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalized beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Though I used to complain about the indecency of God’s wrath, I came to think that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn’t wrathful at the sight of the world’s evil. God isn’t wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love.” – Miroslav Volf – Croatian theologian - quoted from "Yawning at Tigers; You Can't Tame God so Stop Trying" - pg. 59 https://books.google.com/books?id=BkwnAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA59
Atheists also seem to have a very hard time understanding that their moral argument against God collapses in on itself. In other words, in their denial of God as the basis for morality, atheists have forsaken any objective moral standard to be able to judge God by: As Dr. Egnor pointed out, as far as 'the problem of evil' is concerned, "Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question."
The Universe Reflects a Mind - Michael Egnor - February 28, 2018 Excerpt: Goff argues that a Mind is manifest in the natural world, but he discounts the existence of God because of the problem of evil. Goff seriously misunderstands the problem of evil. Evil is an insoluble problem for atheists, because if there is no God, there is no objective standard by which evil and good can exist or can even be defined. If God does not exist, “good” and “evil” are merely human opinions. Yet we all know, as Kant observed, that some things are evil in themselves, and not merely as a matter of opinion. Even to raise the problem of evil is to tacitly acknowledge transcendent standards, and thus to acknowledge God’s existence. From that starting point, theodicy begins. Theists have explored it profoundly. Atheists lack the standing even to ask the question.,,, https://evolutionnews.org/2018/02/the-universe-reflects-a-mind/
bornagain77
September 15, 2021
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Bornagain77 At 191, Seversky ignores the fact that his very own obsessive and compulsive...
Thank God for Seversky , he is an example how we will became is we continue to sin and also he is a test for pacience and love of Christians. We should not counfound the sin with the sinner, Christians hate the sin ,but love the sinner. Many times we forget that and become haters of our brothers.
Bob O'H ba77 – you’ve avoided the central issue: you have a God whose acts include killing large numbers of people,
:))) God doesn't kill(only people kill) just take the people, according to His Ultimate Knowledge and Goals , from School of testing from Earth and transfer them into other dimmensions. On Earth remain only the protective clothing ,we call body ,that is just a tool used for School of Testing the soul. :) Your atheist dogma says God kills? 1: if God doesn't exist killing is not bad (do you remember darwinist theology?) so why you act as killing is bad? ;) 2.if God exists then He is the source of objective morality not Bobby so everytime Bobby say God is immoral means Bobby is immoral. And Bobby knows s/he is immoral . ;)Lieutenant Commander Data
September 15, 2021
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ba77 - you've avoided the central issue: you have a God whose acts include killing large numbers of people, without waiting centuries for them to repent, and many would not have had the chance. According to the Bible, in Egypt he even killed cattle amongst the firstborn, and they certainly didn't have much say in the matter of the Israelites. This is collective punishment - under the 4th Geneva Convention it's considered a war crime.Bob O'H
September 15, 2021
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Bob tells me to get a bible with an Old Testament and brings up Noah's flood and insinuates that God did not wait patiently for the people to repent before he destroyed the world with a flood. Well at least Bob did not try to deny that the worldwide flood even happened. Which is just as well since we now have evidence for worldwide cataclysmic flooding approximately 13,000 to 14,000 years before the present.
Humanpast.net Excerpt: Worldwide, we know that the period of 14,000 to 13,000 years ago, which coincides with the peak of abundant monsoonal rains over India, was marked by violent oceanic flooding – in fact, the first of the three great episodes of global superfloods that dominated the meltdown of the Ice Age. The flooding was fed not merely by rain but by the cataclysmic synchronous collapse of large ice-masses on several different continents and by gigantic inundations of meltwater pouring down river systems into the oceans. (124) What happened, at around 13,000 years ago, was that the long period of uninterrupted warming that the world had just passed through (and that had greatly intensified, according to some studies, between 15,000 years ago and 13,000 years ago) was instantly brought to a halt – all at once, everywhere – by a global cold event known to palaeo climatologists as the ‘Younger Dryas’ or ‘Dryas III’. In many ways mysterious and unexplained, this was an almost unbelievably fast climatic reversion – from conditions that are calculated to have been warmer and wetter than today’s 13,000 years ago, to conditions that were colder and drier than those at the Last Glacial Maximum, not much more than a thousand years later. From that moment, around 12,800 years ago, it was as though an enchantment of ice had gripped the earth. In many areas that had been approaching terminal meltdown full glacial conditions were restored with breathtaking rapidity and all the gains that had been made since the LGM were simply stripped away…(124) A great, sudden extinction took place on the planet, perhaps as recently as 11,500 years ago (usually attributed to the end of that last ice age), in which hundreds of mammal and plant species disappeared from the face of the earth, driven into deep caverns and charred muck piles the world over. Modern science, with all its powers and prejudices, has been unable to adequately explain this event. (83) http://humanpast.net/environment/environment11k.htm
Moreover, we now also have evidence for a deep reservoir of water in the earth's mantle, which just so happens to match exactly what was said to have occurred in the Bible,
Study: Deep beneath the earth, more water than in all the oceans combined - June 16, 2014 Excerpt: And it’s a good thing, too, Jacobsen told New Scientist: “We should be grateful for this deep reservoir. If it wasn’t there, it would be on the surface of the Earth, and mountain tops would be the only land poking out.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/06/16/study-deep-beneath-north-america-theres-more-water-than-in-all-the-oceans-combined/ Genesis 7:11 "When Noah was 600 years old, on the seventeenth day of the second month, all the underground waters erupted from the earth, and the rain fell in mighty torrents from the sky." What does Genesis 7:11 mean? Excerpt: We are told that on that day all the fountains or springs of the great deep burst forth. The picture is of geyser spewing its contents into the sky, implying that a great underground ocean had existed and had been under some amount of pressure since the beginning of creation. In addition, the "windows of heaven" were opened. Great torrents of rain poured from the sky. https://www.bibleref.com/Genesis/7/Genesis-7-11.html
And Bob, in your insinuation that God did not wait patiently for the people to repent from their wickedness before destroying the world with a flood, you are aware of the little fact that it took Noah over 50 years to build the Ark, with Noah continually warning people to repent of their sins while he was doing so since God was going to destroy the world with a flood? For crying out loud, he was building an Ark while he was warning them! :) Do you think that over 50 years was not a long enough warning from God? or that a man building an Ark far away from the ocean was not a big enough warning sign for the impending judgment by a flood? :) Bob also insinuated that he would have done things differently if he were God. All I can say is, Thank God that Bob ain't God! :) .bornagain77
September 15, 2021
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ba77 - you need to get a bible that has the Old Testament in it, then. The Noachian flood, for example, seems closer to the act of an ‘evil tyrant God’ than of one "who patiently, (for centuries sometimes, and very much like a loving Father), calls on a people to repent of their evil sins and turn to Him so that they might be saved from their sin and therefore saved from death."
And then, in the several instances in the Bible where a people fail to repent of their sinful deeds and turn to God who is the source of all life, God lets the people reap what they have sowed and let’s them have exactly what they have, apparently, wished for with their choosing sin over and above choosing to have fellowship with God, i.e. he let’s them have separation from God and therefore let’s them have the death that they themselves have chosen over and above choosing God and therefore choosing life,
What if he had been a bit more patient, though? And in some of these cases he didn't punish individuals, it was whole communities (e.g. cities, nations and in one case almost the whole world) he slaughtered.Bob O'H
September 15, 2021
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At 191, Seversky ignores the fact that his very own obsessive and compulsive, day in and day out, posting on this site, railing against God, directly contradicts his claim that he does not hate God any more that he hates, say, the Easter Bunny, and claims that he is merely "pointing out to believers that the image of a wise, benign, loving God is contradicted by accounts in their own holy texts." I don't know what Bible Seversky is reading but it certainly is not my Bible. My Bible certainly does not contain accounts of an 'evil tyrant God', as Seversky falsely imagines God to be, but my Bible instead contains accounts of an infinitely holy and just God who patiently, (for centuries sometimes, and very much like a loving Father), calls on a people to repent of their evil sins and turn to Him so that they might be saved from their sin and therefore saved from death. For sin separates people from God who is the source of all life. And then, in the several instances in the Bible where a people fail to repent of their sinful deeds and turn to God who is the source of all life, God lets the people reap what they have sowed and let's them have exactly what they have, apparently, wished for with their choosing sin over and above choosing to have fellowship with God, i.e. he let's them have separation from God and therefore let's them have the death that they themselves have chosen over and above choosing God and therefore choosing life,
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Moral Objections to the Old Testament? - Peter Williams https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0rCsQixNIg
bornagain77
September 15, 2021
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Seversky @190, My comments to yours:
That’s right, so the next question is, can we find any way to decide between them [various religions]?
Back to you. IF (!) the one true God actually exists, then what would you expect that the answer would be?
Again that’s true, although that would seem to count against the belief that religious belief somehow immunizes people against immoral behavior.
My trust in Jesus has profoundly changed me and many other people that I know, including criminals who I know personally. That some, many, or even most people remain immoral doesn't falsify those who have been transformed.
At root, we base it [what's evil] on what causes unwarranted pain, suffering and death to ourselves and those we love.
And why should we even have the capacity to care? Shouldn't we be untroubled by what nature itself has no concern about?
Some of it, yes. Other parts are ugly, incredibly destructive and deadly to us.
The ugly parts are typically the result of human greed or indifference. The deadliness of the Antarctic, deserts, volcanoes, the crushing abyss, and the rarefied atmosphere of the tallest peaks, still evoke pleasure from their beauty.
We agree you cannot get something from nothing. The corollary is that, since there is something, there must always have been something. That means that if this Universe began in a Big Bang, it follows there must have been something before.
Your corollary doesn't necessarily follow. Space and time (space-time) *began to exist* at the Big Bang. Time didn't exist before then, so there's no "before." The red shift indicates an accelerating expansion of space-time, which has been extrapolated into the past as the Big Bang (or more accurately, the big stretch).
Yes, there are still a lot of profound mysteries out there.
Are those mysteries profound enough to hide God's possible existence? -QQuerius
September 14, 2021
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But we know experimentally that extremophiles can live on current Martian soil, atmosphere, pressures, and temperatures. As to liquid water on Mars, it's been found. check this out: https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-confirms-evidence-that-liquid-water-flows-on-today-s-mars Bacteria can survive in much higher concentrations of ionizing radiation than other life on earth. The LD50/30 (lethal dose 50% in 30 days) of humans is about 200-250 Rads. In comparison, the LD50/30 for cockroaches is about 3,500 Rads, and for bacteria, it's about 20,000 to 50,000 Rads. While Mars has only about 38% of the atmosphere compared to the earth, it's also 50% farther from the sun as the earth. But Mars lacks a magnetic field to deflect high-energy particles. Nevertheless, humans can likely survive Martian radiation: https://www.wionews.com/science/astronomers-discover-natural-shelter-on-mars-against-radiation-411572 This makes many researchers confident that they will *someday* find life on Mars, but haven't yet so far. -QQuerius
September 14, 2021
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Querius/185
Fortunately, it’s been demonstrated that extremophiles can live in a Martian environment. The age of Mars is about the same for that of earth and it’s now known that the surface and subsurface of Mars has water available. So, presumably Mars should be teaming with forms of life courtesy of the same Darwinian evolutionary processes available on earth.
Except that Mars' gravitational field is only about a third of that of Earth so much of its atmosphere escaped into space and surface water evaporated early on in its life. The surface of the planet is also exposed to much stronger radiation than we are here on Earth. That would have brought the evolution of life on Mars, on the surface at least, to a complete halt. If there is subsurface liquid water then there may be something there but we haven't found any yet.Seversky
September 14, 2021
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