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Lydia McGrew nails it: Does being an atheist interfere with being moral?

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Over at What’s Wrong with the World, Dr. Lydia McGrew has written a short article that nails the reason why atheists are liable to err on moral matters. The article, titled, Does being an atheist interfere with being moral? (September 22, 2015), identifies metaphysical naturalism (which views the world as the sum total of what can be described by the sciences) as the root of the problem. There is of course no logical reason why atheists are bound to accept this materialistic worldview, but the vast majority of contemporary atheists do, and the ethical theory which they tend to opt for, as a best fit for their metaphysical views, is utilitarianism. On a utilitarian view, there are no radical discontinuities in Nature, but only a continuum. Ethically, all that separates us from the chimpanzees is that we are capable of a much greater degree of pleasure, owing to our richer self-awareness, which arises from our having more complex brains. However, the ethical implications of this way of thinking are profoundly anti-human, as there are many humans (e.g. fetuses, newborn babies, the extremely senile and patients in a vegetative state) who don’t experience anything like an adult’s level of pleasure, and who are therefore regarded by utilitarians as inferior beings. In Dr. McGrew’s own words:

There are two atheist “memes” (to use a jargon term) that seem to me to be in prima facie conflict…

…[T]hese are not exact quotes from anyone but approximate statements that reflect things that I, and I suspect you, dear Reader, have heard and read.

Atheist meme #1: It is offensive to imply that being an atheist is in any way detrimental to being a moral person. Atheists can be just as moral as religious people.

Keep your eye on the ball. The question of what is meant by “just as moral” will be crucial.

Atheist meme #2: The idea that man is in any way special is speciesism derived from religious ideas like the image of God. Once we get rid of those religious concepts we can see that man is just another animal, though a highly evolved one. Man’s continuity with the animals means that abortion, euthanasia, killing those in “vegetative states,” and even infanticide are all “on the table” for ethical debate. The decision in specific cases should be made on the basis of utilitarian considerations without any notion that human life per se is valuable.

It should be pretty obvious that the proposals in atheist meme #2 are socially radical. They represent a departure from what a lot of people for a long time in Western society have thought of as moral behavior. Yet atheist meme #2 says that, once you are an atheist, you should consider them to be viable options.

Prima facie, this conflicts with atheist meme #1. It’s pretty obvious that, if atheist meme #2 is true, atheist meme #1 is false: Atheism does make you a less moral person if atheism leads you to consider doing all those things or even advocating them.

Dr. McGrew accuses secular humanists who assert meme #1 and who then proceed to advocate meme #2 are “doing a bait and switch.” The first claim sounds reasonable, especially if we focus on well-known “intellectual” atheists, who look like “nice people.” Once the public is lulled into accepting that these people are just as moral as religious people, a humanist can then argue for the “enlightened,” utilitarian ethics that these figures espouse.

Not all atheists have warped ethical beliefs. There are a few noble atheists who uphold a pro-life position on moral issues, on purely rational grounds – for instance, the atheist Doris Gordon, founder of Libertarians for Life. Dr. McGrew has such people in mind when she writes:

The funny thing is that I actually believe that the true positions on these issues are available by the natural light and hence do not require theism to understand. (Though theism helps. Human beings always find it useful to have more sources of information than strictly necessary.) I examined some of these issues in this essay. In Western society, however, the brand of atheism most commonly held is not some sort of virtuous, Platonic atheism that cleaves to the Good and accesses the natural light but rather some version of naturalism. And that is highly detrimental to moral insight.

Precisely. Metaphysical naturalism is the worldview that poisons the way that most atheists reason ethically, because it views the mind itself as the product of unguided natural processes, instead of taking the existence of mind as a fundamental fact about our cosmos (as a few atheists do). Theists, by contrast, are immune to the poison of metaphysical naturalism, for as long as they continue to believe in God. And that, in a nutshell, is why atheism can interfere with being moral.

Comments
William J Murray @17:
No. It’s true necessarily. If there is nothing to apply logic to/from, logic cannot be applied.
and;
Reason and Criticism have priority over any other way of considering the assertion in question.
Again, this simply cannot be true. First one must populate the assertion that is to be considered, and then one must propagate a presumedly valid criteria from which reason can arbit/criticize the value of the assertion. Reason and criticisms are tools that serve no function without either the assertion or characteristics presumed to be valid with regard to what the assertion is about.
OK, you’ve a nit to pick. It [something to reason from] must necessarily come before reason and criticism, but only chronologically. Chronologically, the sequence is ASSERTION, CRITERIA, REASON AND CRITICISM, ACCEPTANCE/REJECTION. Reason and criticism must come before ACCEPTANCE. If the chronology is what you are interested in, then you have a point. But it is a trivial point. To the extent what you say is true, it is unimportant. If one is interested in knowing how to get from ASSERTION to ACCEPTANCE (which is more likely to be the case), then one must realize that the path must always pass through REASON AND CRITICISM. Any “presumedly valid criteria” on which to evaluate any assertion IS PART OF THE ASSERTION: usually something like “X is Y because Z” (where Z includes the “presumedly valid criteria”). An assertion which has no “presumedly valid criteria” cannot be evaluated, it is untestable and dubious. If the “presumedly valid criteria” exists, then Reason and Criticism take priority if Resolution is your goal.
For example, we may have the assertion “X is immoral”. Reason and criticism are useless unless there are characteristics of X and immorality from which to reason about the statement. Are we just making up what X is? Are we just making up what is moral or not? If so, then reasoning an criticism are simply expressions of personal preference or rhetoric. Reason and criticism cannot come first.
Reason and criticism must come BEFORE acceptance by other means. Alternate example: if one makes the assertion “X is snagaliff”, reason and criticism will ask: “what does snagaliff mean?” The assertion cannot be evaluated because it fails to provide “presumedly valid criteria” for its evaluation. Presumably the response will be something like “Snagaliff is M”. Reasoned criticism will now be directed toward this assertion, and if it can be accepted, then reasoned criticism can evaluate “X is snagaliff”. The assertion “X is immoral” can only be evaluated if there is agreement as to what “immoral” means. And on places like this thread, that IS the dispute, isn’t it? What do we mean by “moral” or “immoral”? The catch is: if you reverse the terms and assert that “morality is X”, how do we decide if that’s correct or not? {{DRUMROLL...}} Reason and Criticism. To be precise: Clearly expressed Reasoning from known Facts.
I’m not sure what use there is in calling any source “infallible”. ...
Calling something infallible has no use; which was my point.
... What is required is **something** by/from which reason and criticism can be applied to the assertion. ...
Agreed. But that **something** is part of the assertion, or an established standard independent of the assertion. Ex: “Trees are living things.” This one is a fairly straight-forward assertion to evaluate because the meaning of “living things” is widely agreed to.
...In the case of morality, people involved in the debate “Is A immoral” must agree to at least assume some sort of basis from which reasoning about the claim can be drawn.
Agreed. But that agreement about what “moral” means is what’s missing on these threads.
Which brings us back to worldview foundations. If one doesn’t hold that there is an actual, fundamentally valid source of moral knowledge from which reasoning and criticism would have merit when applied to a moral assertion, there’s no sound basis for an argument. ...
Agreed, EXCEPT it is not proved that such a basis needs to go “back to a worldview foundation”. That is itself an assertion demanding reasoned criticism. I believe it is an unnecessary claim and should be jettisoned.
...It doesn’t necessarily mean you’re referring to a book or any scripture, but without something serving as your basis for reasonable analysis and criticism, you’re just floating around in the air.
Agreed. We do need something.
There is no means (not even logic) by which to determine if an assertion is credible unless there is something assumed to be valid which logic can refer to in order to make that determination.
Agreed. But that still means that the reliability of a claim or a source needs to be evaluated, that Reasoned Criticism must PRECEDE accepting their reliability.
Let us partake in an exercise. If I claim it is immoral for humans to chop up aborted fetuses and sell off the parts, what logical argument are you going to use to determine the “credibility” of that assertion without referring to anything outside of logic to make your case? It can’t be done. You must refer to something else which you hold as a valid determiner of morality.
I think we’ve already established that the standard needs to be set before evaluating assertions based on the standard. But that standard needs to be evaluated itself, not simply “given”.
It doesn’t matter if you call it “infallible” or not; what matters is that you cannot critique any moral assertion without referring to some presumed-valid source of moral judgement. Then, the question becomes, why that source and not another?
I agree. One standard becomes more acceptable than another if it is itself based on direct human experience of things that are observable. This is why, epistemologically, observation is the Gold Standard of justification. What we can all observe, things we all have experienced and perceived very similarly are the most reliable basis of knowledge. They are as objective as anything can be. When people “experience” something that they evaluate in radically different ways from how other people evaluate similar “experiences”, reason says that these evaluations are not reliable, that this is not a reliable “experience”. If people are prone to disputes about it, it cannot be the basis of sound judgements. Something else is going on. This is why religious experiences serve as poor standards; as widespread as they are, they exhibit wildly different results. Something else is going on. However this matter is evaluated, if Reasoned criticism from known facts does not produce a satisfactory moral standard, then deciding to accept one source over or against another is pure subjective preference, which we seem to agree is a poor resolution. sean s.sean samis
October 3, 2015
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sean samis
In the course of any dispute, this is true only chronologically.
No. It's true necessarily. If there is nothing to apply logic to/from, logic cannot be applied.
The assertion comes first and then reason and criticism follow. But I think the point Popperian was making a different point. Reason and Criticism have priority over any other way of considering the assertion in question.
Again, this simply cannot be true. First one must populate the assertion that is to be considered, and then one must propagate a presumedly valid criteria from which reason can arbit/criticize the value of the assertion. Reason and criticisms are tools that serve no function without either the assertion or characteristics presumed to be valid with regard to what the assertion is about. For example, we may have the assertion "X is immoral". Reason and criticism are useless unless there are characteristics of X and immorality from which to reason about the statement. Are we just making up what X is? Are we just making up what is moral or not? If so, then reasoning an criticism are simply expressions of personal preference or rhetoric. Reason and criticism cannot come first.
Reason and criticism must come before the acceptance of assertions, especially from a source claimed to be infallible. What is the point of saying the source is infallible but to forestall criticism?
I'm not sure what use there is in calling any source "infallible". What is required is **something** by/from which reason and criticism can be applied to the assertion. In the case of morality, people involved in the debate "Is A immoral" must agree to at least assume some sort of basis from which reasoning about the claim can be drawn. Which brings us back to worldview foundations. If one doesn't hold that there is an actual, fundamentally valid source of moral knowledge from which reasoning and criticism would have merit when applied to a moral assertion, there's no sound basis for an argument. It doesn't necessarily mean you're referring to a book or any scripture, but without something serving as your basis for reasonable analysis and criticism, you're just floating around in the air.
For a reasonable person to accept that a source actually is reliable (much less infallible), they must first use reason and criticism to verify for themselves whether the assertions are credible. That has to come first.
Nope. There is no means (not even logic) by which to determine if an assertion is credible unless there is something assumed to be valid which logic can refer to in order to make that determination. Let us partake in an exercise. If I claim it is immoral for humans to chop up aborted fetuses and sell off the parts, what logical argument are you going to use to determine the "credibility" of that assertion without referring to anything outside of logic to make your case? It can't be done. You must refer to something else which you hold as a valid determiner of morality. It doesn't matter if you call it "infallible" or not; what matters is that you cannot critique any moral assertion without referring to some presumed-valid source of moral judgement. Then, the question becomes, why that source and not another?William J Murray
October 3, 2015
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Mung @13:
So?
So--claiming that some morality came from a deity does not prove that it actually did. That requires verification. Claiming some morality is “objective” also needs to be verified. Simply saying the morality comes from a deity does not serve to verify the claim of objectivity. @14:
sean samis seems to find such claims to be morally objectionable.
Objectionable? No. They are unsubstantiated. sean s.sean samis
October 3, 2015
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William J Murray @12:
Human reason and criticism cannot come first. What comes first must be something to reason from, and something to criticize. Reasoning and criticism are things you do about something else.
In the course of any dispute, this is true only chronologically. The assertion comes first and then reason and criticism follow. But I think the point Popperian was making a different point. Reason and Criticism have priority over any other way of considering the assertion in question. Reason and criticism must come before the acceptance of assertions, especially from a source claimed to be infallible. What is the point of saying the source is infallible but to forestall criticism? For a reasonable person to accept that a source actually is reliable (much less infallible), they must first use reason and criticism to verify for themselves whether the assertions are credible. That has to come first. sean s.sean samis
October 3, 2015
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sean samis seems to find such claims to be morally objectionable. go figure.Mung
October 1, 2015
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sean samis:
Merely claiming some morality comes from a deity does not make that morality actually from a deity. Likewise, claims that some morality are “objective” do not make that morality actually objective.
So?Mung
October 1, 2015
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Popperian said:
Human reason and criticism always comes before the infallible source.
Human reason and criticism cannot come first. What comes first must be something to reason from, and something to criticize. Reasoning and criticism are things you do about something else.William J Murray
October 1, 2015
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LarTanner said:
Meanwhile, the theist Kim Davis acts unethically by violating her oath and office, and by obstructing others from exercising lawfully guaranteed rights. So we have a theist acting in obvious, irrefutable immorality.
I wonder if any of the atheists here can figure out what's wrong with this sequence of statements? Hint: think historically about oaths of office, lawfully guaranteed rights, and the problem with drawing an equivalence between "obeying the law" and "irrefutable morality". Why would a non-theist hide Jews in their attic and lie to German officers, putting themselves and their family and friends at risk to break the law? Wouldn't breaking the law be an unethical, irrefutable act of immorality? Why would a German officer violate their sworn oath and aid in the escape or protection of Jews under Hitler's regime? Wouldn't such a violation be an unethical, irrefutable act of immorality?William J Murray
October 1, 2015
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Popperian @7:
they would use their own reason to determine when to defer to the infallible source, or when not to, which is what someone would have done had they not believed in that infallible source. Human reason and criticism always comes before the infallible source.
Correct. Merely claiming some morality comes from a deity does not make that morality actually from a deity. Likewise, claims that some morality are “objective” do not make that morality actually objective. With no reliable way to verify such claims, embracing some theistic morality must always be a SUBJECTIVE CHOICE, and the attached morality must always be a SUBJECTIVE MORALITY. Only correct reasoning from available facts can create an objective morality, which a belief in God interferes with. So in fact, it is THEISM that “INTERFERES WITH BEING MORAL”. It does not prevent it, it just interferes.
Bringing those ideas into the light and criticizing them is far better than accepting them uncritically, especially when accepting things uncritically is presented as a sort of bad criticism (we should accept them uncritically)
Agreed. Ideas that cannot be criticized are inherently suspicious. sean s.sean samis
October 1, 2015
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tjguy @6:
Atheists create their own definition to fit their moral views and just like that, they can evaluate themselves as moral people according to their chosen standard.
Christians and other theists do this exactly. How does this make “atheist morality” worse per se? It cannot.
God says otherwise.
Actually, all anyone knows is that some people claim their god said so; God has never said anything that I can be sure is actually “said by God”.
That evaluation is made using God’s standards – the moral standards revealed in the Bible.
As before; I have no reliable information that any deity had a role in the creation of the Bible; I cannot take it as reporting “God’s standards” but only standards that some humans want me to submit too.
Using the biblical standard, we see that every person alive does both moral actions and immoral actions throughout their lives. And we all do both right and wrong things every day. That adds up to a heck of a lot of wrong stuff by the end of our life, but it is not simply a game to see if we can save ourselves by striving to do more right than wrong or good than bad.
Even a rational, materialistic standard (I have one.) shows the same things.
...if you choose to discard the parts of biblical morality that you don’t like, then you can deceive yourself into thinking you are a good person.
As Christians do all the time.
...it seems to me that most people do not have the courage to admit the extent of their sin – probably because they have no answer for the problem. We would rather ignore it, deny it, rationalize it away, trivialize it, or simply treat it as normal...
True enough, even among Christians. But the answer to this problem does not come only from theism. sean s.sean samis
October 1, 2015
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Like McGrew, Torley focuses on "warped ethical beliefs." The word "belief" is important here, as McGrew and Torley disapprove of and demonize a certain strand of philosophical thinking. For them, the thinking alone and itself is immoral. Meanwhile, the theist Kim Davis acts unethically by violating her oath and office, and by obstructing others from exercising lawfully guaranteed rights. So we have a theist acting in obvious, irrefutable immorality. And these actions affect real people and their families. And these actions cost taxpayers. And Davis' theism by her own admission leads her to act as she does. On the other hand, we have McGrew and Torley aridly pronouncing on atheism leading to "warped ethical beliefs" in some atheists. McGrew and Torley: Is it possible theism actually doesn't make you more ethical than atheists, either in belief or in deed?LarTanner
October 1, 2015
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It should be pretty obvious that the proposals in atheist meme #2 are socially radical. They represent a departure from what a lot of people for a long time in Western society have thought of as moral behavior. Yet atheist meme #2 says that, once you are an atheist, you should consider them to be viable options. Prima facie, this conflicts with atheist meme #1. It’s pretty obvious that, if atheist meme #2 is true, atheist meme #1 is false: Atheism does make you a less moral person if atheism leads you to consider doing all those things or even advocating them.
One key missing option is we have actually been doing #2 all along. From another comment…
The problem for those that try to explain the growth of moral knowledge and moral problem solving through an infallible source of moral standards, values or duties is that it's unclear how anyone can infallibly identify and interpret an infallible source in such a way that they could apply them in practice. IOW, it's unclear how they have any other recourse that to conjecture solutions to moral problems, then criticize them. That is, they would use their own reason to determine when to defer to the infallible source, or when not to, which is what someone would have done had they not believed in that infallible source. Human reason and criticism always comes before the infallible source.
They have always been viable options that we have considered doing. Moral knowledge, like any other knowledge, comes from conjecture and criticism. We don’t start out knowing the exact outcome of our choices or even if they reflect what we had wanted. From Open Society and Its Enemies (Volume 2), chapter 24, section iii
As we have seen before (in chapter 5), and now again in our analysis of the uncritical version of rationalism, arguments cannot determine such a fundamental moral decision. But this does not imply that our choice cannot be helped by any kind of argument whatever. On the contrary, whenever we are faced with a moral decision of a more abstract kind, it is most helpful to analyse carefully the consequences which are likely to result from the alternatives between which we have to choose. For only if we can visualize these consequences in a concrete and practical way, do we really know what our decision is about; otherwise we decide blindly. In order to illustrate this point, I quote a passage from Shaw’s Saint Joan. The speaker is the Chaplain: he has stubbornly demanded Joan’s death; but when he sees her at the stake, he breaks down; ‘I meant no harm. I did not know what it would be like .. I did not know what I was doing .. If I had known, I would have torn her from their hands. You don’t know. You haven’t seen: it is so easy to talk when you don’t know. You madden yourself with words .. But when it is brought home to you; when you see the thing you have done: when it is blinding your eyes, stifling your nostrils, tearing your heart, then –then –O God, take away this sight from me!’ (footnote omitted.) There were, of course, other figures in Shaw’s play who knew exactly what they were doing, and yet decided to do it; and who did not regret it afterwards. Some people dislike seeing their fellow men burning at the stake and others do not. This point (which was neglected by many Victorian optimists) is important, for it shows that a rational analysis of the consequences of a decision does not make the decision rational; the consequences do not determine our decision; it is always we who decide. But an analysis of the concrete consequences, and their clear realization in what we call our ‘imagination’, makes the difference between a blind decision and a decision made with open eyes; and since we use our imagination very little (footnote omitted) we only too often decide blindly. This is especially so if we are intoxicated by an oracular philosophy, one of the most powerful means of maddening ourselves with words — to use Shaw’s expression.
And then there is the moral connotations of the philosophical idea that we should defer to authoritative sources at all. The majority of the world has discarded the idea of the divine right of kings (with Jesus being the most notable hold out). Most that remain are figureheads. What we’re concerned about is their ideas, not their sources. Bringing those ideas into the light and criticizing them is far better than accepting them uncritically, especially when accepting things uncritically is presented as a sort of bad criticism (we should accept them uncritically) A person can pass an exam on a subject they really not understand if the exam presented the material in exactly the same way they memorized the answers. But when that person finds themselves actually facing a real problem, in practice, presented in a way that does not match the way they memorized it, their will be unable to solve the problem at hand. If you do not see why criticisms fail for, for any sort of ideas we adopt, then it’s unclear how you understand them in a way necessary to actually apply them in practice.Popperian
October 1, 2015
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Does being an atheist interfere with being moral? Doesn't it all depend on how you define the word "moral"? Atheists create their own definition to fit their moral views and just like that, they can evaluate themselves as moral people according to their chosen standard. But how meaningful is that evaluation if they use their own personally devised standard? For instance, I'm sure most atheists would not say that sex outside of marriage is wrong. God says otherwise. Their standard is a far cry from the standard by which the Creator will evaluate them with. The Bible says that all have sinned and are sinners in God's eyes. That evaluation is made using God's standards - the moral standards revealed in the Bible. Using the biblical standard, we see that every person alive does both moral actions and immoral actions throughout their lives. And we all do both right and wrong things every day. That adds up to a heck of a lot of wrong stuff by the end of our life, but it is not simply a game to see if we can save ourselves by striving to do more right than wrong or good than bad. Anyway, if you choose to discard the parts of biblical morality that you don't like, then you can deceive yourself into thinking you are a good person. And sure, of course you are a good person when you look at it like that. In reality, it seems to me that most people do not have the courage to admit the extent of their sin - probably because they have no answer for the problem. We would rather ignore it, deny it, rationalize it away, trivialize it, or simply treat it as normal than confessing it, repenting of it, and seeking forgiveness from God and others.tjguy
October 1, 2015
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Atheist meme #1: It is offensive to imply that being an atheist is in any way detrimental to being a moral person. Atheists can be just as moral as religious people.
Exactly so. In fact, the implication is especially offensive coming from proponents of a faith whose claim to moral superiority is fatally undermined by the continued inclusion in its primary religious text of accounts of what, by modern standards, are atrocities committed by its God and His proxies and followers. Unless and until those stories are repudiated and purged from the text, neither you nor Dr McGrew have a moral or ethical leg to stand on.Seversky
September 30, 2015
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Here are a couple of posts of related interest: https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/idiocy-from-media-matters-some-disgraceful-us-outfit-ben-carson-edition/#comment-581591 https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/richard-dawkins-no-moralist-like-an-atheist-moralist/#comment-577245bornagain77
September 30, 2015
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"man is just another animal, though a highly evolved one." From what I have seen the "highly evolved" line is questioned by many atheists. I have encountered people arguing that because there is apparently more biomass of ants than of humans, that ants are "the more successful" so realistcally "the more highly evolved."bFast
September 30, 2015
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Being an atheist or a materialist is no greater impediment to "being moral" than is theism; after all, if a theist thinks their god has told them to do some evil thing, how can they refuse? If reason can keep the theist safe from error, so can reason keep the materialist safe. sean s.sean samis
September 30, 2015
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Heck, atheists can even trust the convictions of their monkey minds, if there are any convictions at all.Andre
September 30, 2015
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